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[ivysaur12]

Those studies are full of shit. Every kid needs a paternal role, be it a father, uncle, someone from the neighborhood or someone on TV or whatever.

Based off of what? Your own beliefs? Social science has repeatedly found the need for loving parents over some gender construct.

 

[CornBurrito]

Those studies are full of shit. Every kid needs a paternal role, be it a father, uncle, someone from the neighborhood or someone on TV or whatever.

Explain how they are full of shit? That's a rather serious claim since it suggests that homosexual couples are unfit to raise kids and no data will convince you otherwise.

And i'm pretty sure they didn't do it quite as much because they weren't exposed to the 24/7 novelty of high speed internet porn..

We agree. I just don't see how that leads people to the conclusion that masturbation at all is harmful to the point where they forbid themselves from doing it for their entire life.

why waste a good nut over some online pictures or your Love Plus pillow when you could go out and bust it in a real girlfriend

I'm guessing throughout human history not all men have been able to reproduce successfully, even before internet porn. Some men are simply undesirable and unlikely to find a long term mate. The idea that everyone would have a girlfriend/wife/lover if they stopped masturbating is laughable.

 

[Trojita]

It doesn't need a name change. We're doing fine accepting he/him/his as the most common pronoun in ambiguous or non-gendered situations, so I don't see why a word having a female slant is difficult.

Isn't a goal of feminism to get rid of those though? lol

 

[Karkador]

And i'm pretty sure they didn't do it quite as much because they weren't exposed to the 24/7 novelty of high speed internet porn. And i'm certainly sure that the psychologically based issue of 20 year olds having erectile dysfunction and premature ejaculation when having sex is fairly new. There is a thing called self-control which people could do with re-learning nowadays - why waste a good nut over some online pictures or your Love Plus pillow when you could go out and bust it in a real girlfriend?

But i'd rather not turn this thread into a debate over whether NF is effective and why. I'm just presenting it as an alternative approach to fixing men's oft quoted problems that, anecdotally, seems to work pretty well in many who try it - as opposed to just blaming women for it all.

How is busting it in a girl any different from busting it on your own? The rhetoric I've seen from No Fap advocates talk like having sex with a girl is like bathing in the fountain of youth

 

[Winterfang]

Explain how they are full of shit? That's a rather serious claim since it suggests that homosexual couples are unfit to raise kids and no data will convince you otherwise.
.

That a wrongful accusation, since I didn't mention homosexuals in any part of my post. I didn't also said it the paternal role had to come from the father directly either. But a young boy needs a paternal figure to look up to, specially in his teenage years just like a young girl needs a woman she can look up to.

It takes a village to raise a child.

 

[Dreamgazer]

yes, I agree 101%

For reals though, there are a ton of problems, but they are all pretty much a result of a patriarchal mindset - which feminism in almost all forms opposes.

For an example, men being at a disadvantage in custody settlements and such is a result of patriarchialist views of women being inherently more suited to raise children.

You can easily read up on"extreme" arguments against father rights that has nothing to do with patriarchal views, such as:
- Father rights movement is an attempt to make it more difficult for females to escape from domestic violence situations (holding child as hostage.)
- Father rights is an attempt to lessen men's responsibility in providing financial care, child support or taking the effort to work with the ex-wife.

Although yes, this is entirely a failure of our legal system.

 

[CornBurrito]

That a wrongful accusation, since I didn't mention homosexuals in any part of my post. I didn't also said it the paternal role had to come from the father directly either. But a young boy needs a paternal figure to look up to, specially in his teenage years just like a young girl needs a woman she can look up to.

It takes a village to raise a child.

You said "those studies" and I was specifically referencing studies done on homosexual couples. I don't believe those studies ever conclude with "children need no paternal figures at all!"

You could have said "they still need a maternal/paternal figure from somewhere" but chose to call the studies bullshit.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Isn't a goal of feminism to get rid of those though? lol

That's a general goal of decent people. Why would feminism give a shit about petty things like that when there are much more serious things to consider?

 

[Winterfang]

You said "those studies" and I was specifically referencing studies done on homosexual couples. I don't believe those studies ever conclude with "children need no paternal figures at all!"

You could have said "they still need a maternal/paternal figure from somewhere" but chose to call the studies bullshit.

I sorry, I jumped the gun. I didn't had a good paternal figure when I grew up and I feel it affected me a lot. I immediately got the "strong woman that don't need no man" vibe from the post and struck a nerve.

 

[Shouta]

On the issue of custody:



This should be taken out of their argument. Studies done on same sex couples with children shows that you do not need both a traditional mother and a traditional father role in your parents.

Paternal roles can be possible for same sex couples, I think.

The problem is that a lot of folks think paternal automatically means male. While true that it's typically a gender role, you can probably explain it more broadly as children need someone that is nurturing and someone that provides them someone to admire. Those typically what the mother and father roles break down into.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Paternal roles can be possible for same sex couples, I think.

The problem is that a lot of folks think paternal automatically means male. While true that it's typically a gender role, you can probably explain it more broadly as children need someone that is nurturing and someone that provides them someone to admire. Those typically what the mother and father roles break down into.

Does research show this to be true though?

Do children really need a parent that is nurturing, and then another parent that is less nurturing but... more admirable?
A lot of this stuff just seems to be "common sense"-based justifications of the status quo.

 

[Trojita]

That's a general goal of decent people. Why would feminism give a shit about petty things like that when there are much more serious things to consider?

But that was a part of their dialogue in the past of what needed to be changed. You are stating that things like that are petty and it should be a general goal of decent people, but somehow are totally okay with Feminism still having a gender affirmed pronoun?

Isn't the goal to have everything universal?

 

[lmpaler]

This is a legitimate problem.

True story here. I know a few men who are utterly fantastic father's and their child(ren) is(are) their world. And yet the drug addict or flat our piece of shit mother ends up with full costody and a ridiculous amount of child support incoming and the man either never or barely gets to see his kids.

Also I love how women completely disregard that men have issue when growing up too. I had a two hour talk with my parents and my girlfriend explainging to them the pressure's and issues boys deal with growing up, especially in the 90s and early 2000s when I was a young lad. I cannot imagine what they go through now although I imagine the emo/dressing like a girl trend is their way to cope with it. Pussies.

 

[zero shift]

This is a legitimate problem.

It is but not to the extent that people portray it as. Its still more common to have dead beat fathers get off not paying and severely underpaying than men that overpay.

 

[Revenant]

Is this where I can post this video I found on reddit?!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80

 

[remnant]

When it becomes us vs them we all lose. There a few legitimate concerns but trying to discredit the other side out of what seems to be spite really just hurts their case.

Most of the people I see doing that are hardcore feminists.

 

[mullet2000]

Is this where I can post this video I found on reddit?!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80

God, that video is just embarrassing for both sides. The sooner we can move past this "women's rights - men's rights" fighting between groups and just focus on equal human rights the better.

I guess there would always be in-fighting though. Sigh. I'm just getting tired of the yelling contests. No one's going to listen to anybody that way.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

My apologies, forgot to post the rest of the article. Updating the first post. Awkward.

Not bolding it cause it's long as fuck.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

But that was a part of their dialogue in the past of what needed to be changed. You are stating that things like that are petty and it should be a general goal of decent people, but somehow are totally okay with Feminism still having a gender affirmed pronoun?

Isn't the goal to have everything universal?

It is universal. Women are more oppressed than men, so it makes sense that the movement to raise women up to be equal would be named after them.

 

[Deified Data]

Those studies are full of shit. Every kid needs a paternal role, be it a father, uncle, someone from the neighborhood or someone on TV or whatever.

I did alright.

I agree that men deserve equal rights in the realm of family law, but the idea that "every child needs an 'X' to be normal" is full of shit.

 

[Shouta]

Does research show this to be true though?

Do children really need a parent that is nurturing, and then another parent that is less nurturing but... more admirable?
A lot of this stuff just seems to be "common sense"-based justifications of the status quo.

I don't know. There might be a study on it somewhere.

However, I tend to find saying something is backed by research to be somewhat lackluster because it often addresses or doesn't address certain points with the way it's conduct, the participates, the questions, etc. There are often flaws or different angles that aren't addressed for whatever reason and so more critical thought is needed.

At any rate, I find that, for parental roles, these are the two biggest ones that need to be filled in somehow. It can be filled in many other ways, as a lot of single parent families get along just fine but it needs to be there in some format.

 

[Pau]

Also I love how women completely disregard that men have issue when growing up too. I had a two hour talk with my parents and my girlfriend explainging to them the pressure's and issues boys deal with growing up, especially in the 90s and early 2000s when I was a young lad. I cannot imagine what they go through now although I imagine the emo/dressing like a girl trend is their way to cope with it. Pussies.

Damn this is an ironic post.

 

[Deified Data]

Damn this is an ironic post.

Yeah, it's either tragic or quite clever. Can't decide.

 

[Ikael]

Identity politics are the worst type of politics. I said that regarding feminism, and I still mantain it when talking about the men's right movement.

That being said, each gender is facing their own legitimate problems for sure. But when you are talking about gender roles, you need to put men and women both on board if you want to arrive to anything productive. To approach this issue as a zero sum type of game is wrong.

Also, the whole gender talk regarding income and wealth redistribution is one of the most blatant cases of divide et impera that I have ever seen. That some progressives likes to fall into that type of game is facepalm - worthy.

 

[zero shift]

This is a legitimate problem.

While true to an extent its still more common for women to get shafted by dead beat dads.

I can find the data if you would like.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I don't know. There might be a study on it somewhere.

However, I tend to find saying something is backed by research to be somewhat lackluster because it often addresses or doesn't address certain points with the way it's conduct, the participates, the questions, etc. There are often flaws or different angles that aren't addressed for whatever reason and so more critical thought is needed.

At any rate, I find that, for parental roles, these are the two biggest ones that need to be filled in somehow. It can be filled in many other ways, as a lot of single parent families get along just fine but it needs to be there in some format.

Yeah, I was thinking of single-parents when I read your post.
It seems to me that family structures can get a whole lot more varied before they get bad, and that there aren't necesserily any "roles" that need to be fulfilled by the adults surrounding the child so long as they get just a couple of things (love and guidance really).

You could have one parent give that love and guidance to the child in equal amounts, or one parent giving the love primarily and other primarily the guidance, or maybe two parents equally giving those two things to the child without either of them being visibly more present in the love/guidance-department.

 

[jon bones]

There is nothing more pathetic than the "Men's Rights Movement" - truly a laughable bunch of lonely, entitled manchildren who want so badly to play the victim.

 

[Gawge]

I was mildly supportive of Men's Rights campaigns a while back, not strongly, but I was somewhat concerned that certain movements were advancing the roles of women (and other groups) at the expense of straight, white males like myself. I would never say stupid ill-informed rubbish such as "the most discriminated group are white males" or something like that, and fully supported equality, but was probably consciously 'worried' that I would 'lose out'.

I think that views such as my own, were/are largely based on rough ideas of feminism, rather than actually reading and listening to what the movement tends to be about.

I (in a sort of nice, but naive way), thought that sexism/racism/homophobia was something confined to 60+ year olds, it wasn't really an issue in the modern world (I'm from Britain if that makes a difference). I thought that if we all just seeked equality, let employers select people purely on merit, give everybody equal rights under the law etc... that would be enough.

But actually, I have encountered people of my age (20), that are actually fairly openly sexist/racist/homophobic. Some that are currently in positions of power, where they can employ others, and may go on to more. I have no doubt that these people would consciously discriminate against women and homosexuals. I also believe that there are plenty more who would subconsciously discriminate in similar positions.

However, more than that, are the circumstances of sexism which is simply inherent in systems and society - it is no single persons fault, it is just the way things are - and legislation to make everybody equal in the eyes of the law does very little to impact upon it. I don't believe that women are any less naturally disposed to be CEO's, or Physicists - yet they clearly are pushed by society, not by direct pressure, but by constant ideas about what a man/woman should be throughout their lives.

This is why feminism solves many of the supposed 'male equality' issues. Men should not be seen as the macho workers, and women as the carers - men and women should be equal in how they work and how they raise children, that is a feminist issue.

In general, I probably need to nail down my opinions a bit more and read more material, but I certainly think that 'Mens rights' just miss what feminism is actually about, or just completely fail to see that men clearly have somewhat of a benefit in society from being a man.

 

[Transhuman]

There is nothing more pathetic than the "Men's Rights Movement" - truly a laughable bunch of lonely, entitled manchildren who want so badly to play the victim.

You realise the irony of tarring all MRM members with the same brush when one of the major criticisms of the MRM is that they tar all feminists with the same brush, right?

 

[SummitAve]

You realise the irony of tarring all MRM members with the same brush when one of the major criticisms of the MRM is that they tar all feminists with the same brush, right?

Simply identifying as being a part of the "Men's Right Movement" validates the broad brush strokes. I don't think MRM is really comparable to feminism either so there is no irony.

 

[params7]

Is this where I can post this video I found on reddit?!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80

More on that:

http://youtu.be/M2KPeMcYsuc


Shit's hilarious

 

[Shalashaska161]

God, that video is just embarrassing for both sides. The sooner we can move past this "women's rights - men's rights" fighting between groups and just focus on equal human rights the better.

I guess there would always be in-fighting though. Sigh. I'm just getting tired of the yelling contests. No one's going to listen to anybody that way.

That's the sad thing. Both groups want the same thing, they are just approaching it from opposite sides. Ideally they would be working together to tackle these issues instead of trying to discredit each other.

 

[cubicle47b]

I don't know too much about Warren Farrell except he was a very prominent feminist for many years and was on the board of NoW. At some point he started to try to address mens issues as well and essentially lost his audience because of it. I listened to an interview about The Myth of Male Power (or a quarter of it) and what I heard was pretty decent. Lots of interesting points to think about. Then I read an article about the people that he caters to and felt uneasy. The idea of a mens movement is a good one, I just don't think it attracts many people you'd want to be involved with (Would you want to associate yourself with the social justice warriors on Tumblr? I didn't think so.).

That University of Toronto protest video is amazing. The vast, vast majority of feminists are great. The people in that video ruin it for everyone.

 

[Hylian7]

Redacted because wrong and I wasn't completely paying attention.

 

[jon bones]

You realise the irony of tarring all MRM members with the same brush when one of the major criticisms of the MRM is that they tar all feminists with the same brush, right?

No irony at all - I paint all members of the KKK with the same brush and I think that's fair. The MRA may not be as evil as the KKK, but they are just as misguided and ignorant.

 

[cubicle47b]

Fedoras strike again.

Fedora guy was a feminist, not that it's important what type of hat people choose to wear.

 

[UrbanRats]

Fedoras strike again.

Thanks for the red circle, i didn't know where to look for the hat.

 

[Hylian7]

Fedora guy was a feminist, not that it's important what type of hat people choose to wear.

Dammit, I was only half paying attention to the video when I had it open on the other monitor.

 

[Fudgepuppy]

I personally have a sort of irritated knee-jerk reaction towards the angry feminists that seems to want to create issues where there are none.

I've never felt that I should have more rights as a man, and I've never personally gotten any privileges because of my gender, in fact, it's the opposite. I've been denied several jobs because there were already too many men in the work-place.

This is why after living life wherein I'm not trying to repress anyone, discriminate anyone or put anyone below me, I can get really offended when someone starts chanting that their rights should be prioritized because "I'm" the source of their problems in the first place.

I just don't like bunching together people and saying that they're the source of the problem, which is why I generally stay out of these debates, as people always seem to misunderstand me and think I consider myself hurt and discriminated by women in general. That's not true, I just hate the general feeling that every woman I've met who's really commited to female rights, looks down on me and says I'm the problem by simply being born the way I am.

I just don't think we can achieve any equal rights by calling foul on anyone else.

I love women, I have no preconceptions that they can't do things I can do and vice-versa, and I really want everyone, no matter gender, colour or origin, to have the same opportunities and possibilities in life, but I don't think we can achieve that by saying someone is a "Chauvinist pig" or "Feminist whore".

Please don't hate me and say that I'm one of "those people" that go around and say "Durr, how can it be equal rights if it's called FEMinism?", because I'm not, or I think I'm not atleast.

 

[mullet2000]

I don't know too much about Warren Farrell except he was a very prominent feminist for many years and was on the board of NoW. At some point he started to try to address mens issues as well and essentially lost his audience because of it. I listened to an interview about The Myth of Male Power (or a quarter of it) and what I heard was pretty decent. Lots of interesting points to think about. Then I read an article about the people that he caters to and felt uneasy. The idea of a mens movement is a good one, I just don't think it attracts many people you'd want to be involved with (Would you want to associate yourself with the social justice warriors on Tumblr? I didn't think so.).

That University of Toronto protest video is amazing. The vast, vast majority of feminists are great. The people in that video ruin it for everyone.

Yeah, That's a good post right here. I too had a similar experience watching a Farrell talk, coming off of it thinking "well that was pretty reasonable!" Then looking up more information and going "ehhh...Maybe not." That said the "rape apologist" claims and such are completely dumb.

And yeah, as always the loud minority will get the most attention. The small feminist groups blocking and yelling through a megaphone outside of men's talks are...completely unforgivable though.

 

[Platy]

Saw this on HuffPo

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/04/15/mens-rights-millennial-males-canada_n_3061876.html

Farrell’s work aims to debunk the idea of male privilege.

Rest of the article, forgot to post:

Dude don't even know what is a privilege.

Privilege is basicaly the hability of not receiving prejudice when other group would.

So people will only stop having male privilege when men and women are 120% equal.

 

[Bleepey]

Simply identifying as being a part of the "Men's Right Movement" validates the broad brush strokes. I don't think MRM is really comparable to feminism either so there is no irony.

Do you feel that rules regarding child support and alimony are fair. I think both are remnants of patriarchy that benefit women.

 

[Deified Data]

I personally have a sort of irritated knee-jerk reaction towards the angry feminists that seems to want to create issues where there are none.

I've never felt that I should have more rights as a man, and I've never personally gotten any privileges because of my gender, in fact, it's the opposite. I've been denied several jobs because there were already too many men in the work-place.

This is why after living life wherein I'm not trying to repress anyone, discriminate anyone or put anyone below me, I can get really offended when someone starts chanting that their rights should be prioritized because "I'm" the source of their problems in the first place.

I just don't like bunching together people and saying that they're the source of the problem, which is why I generally stay out of these debates, as people always seem to misunderstand me and think I consider myself hurt and discriminated by women in general. That's not true, I just hate the general feeling that every woman I've met who's really commited to female rights, looks down on me and says I'm the problem by simply being born the way I am.

I just don't think we can achieve any equal rights by calling foul on anyone else.

I love women, I have no preconceptions that they can't do things I can do and vice-versa, and I really want everyone, no matter gender, colour or origin, to have the same opportunities and possibilities in life, but I don't think we can achieve that by saying someone is a "Chauvinist pig" or "Feminist whore".

Please don't hate me and say that I'm one of "those people" that go around and say "Durr, how can it be equal rights if it's called FEMinism?", because I'm not, or I think I'm not atleast.

I don't think there's anything in this post that would warrant a GAF backlash - it pretty much mirrors how I feel, too. Anyone blaming you, specifically, for the problems women face is short-sighted in the extreme.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Also I love how women completely disregard that men have issue when growing up too.

What are you basing this on? You can't visit a generic feminist Tumblr blog without seeing some posts about how they also hate how patriarchal pressures are also shitty to men.

 

[gwarm01]

Things would be easier if we all just organized into one group demanding equal treatment of all individuals.

 

[Kukuk]

I don't know why it blows my mind that so many people here believe in patriarchy theory.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

I don't know why it blows my mind that so many people here believe in patriarchy theory.

Anything wrong with it?
It makes a lot of sense.

 

[Platy]

Do you feel that rules regarding child support and alimony are fair. I think both are remnants of patriarchy that benefit women.

But you have to think WHY they "benefit" women.

They were created because the idea that women cannot work thenselfs and stuffs like that.

Child Support is also pretty complicated because it is complicated to work while taking care of the children and the children is made by both, so it makes sense for both to take care of it.
The problem is that people see women as only huge pussies for sex and childbirth, and because of that it is usualy gave to the mother ... but this is changing considerably in recent years.

When the father ASKS for the child support, the battle is usualy pretty equal ... but then again most fathers don't even try because he don't want to change diapers at midnight or lose your social life or do any "women's job"

And exactly because of those reasons it is one of the things that feminism battles that are considered "men issues" =P

I don't know why it blows my mind that so many people here believe in patriarchy theory.

Name one country that had more female presidents than males

OH WAIT YOU CAN'T because it hasn't even made 100 years that women earned the right to even VOTE in most countries

edit : Finland, New Zealand, Australia, Cook Islands, Isle of Man and Pitcairn Islands are the only ones that allowed women to vote before 1913. Norway allowed EXACTLY in 1913

 

[rocketknight]

I personally have a sort of irritated knee-jerk reaction towards the angry feminists that seems to want to create issues where there are none.

I've never felt that I should have more rights as a man, and I've never personally gotten any privileges because of my gender, in fact, it's the opposite. I've been denied several jobs because there were already too many men in the work-place.

This is why after living life wherein I'm not trying to repress anyone, discriminate anyone or put anyone below me, I can get really offended when someone starts chanting that their rights should be prioritized because "I'm" the source of their problems in the first place.

I just don't like bunching together people and saying that they're the source of the problem, which is why I generally stay out of these debates, as people always seem to misunderstand me and think I consider myself hurt and discriminated by women in general. That's not true, I just hate the general feeling that every woman I've met who's really commited to female rights, looks down on me and says I'm the problem by simply being born the way I am.

I just don't think we can achieve any equal rights by calling foul on anyone else.

I love women, I have no preconceptions that they can't do things I can do and vice-versa, and I really want everyone, no matter gender, colour or origin, to have the same opportunities and possibilities in life, but I don't think we can achieve that by saying someone is a "Chauvinist pig" or "Feminist whore".

Please don't hate me and say that I'm one of "those people" that go around and say "Durr, how can it be equal rights if it's called FEMinism?", because I'm not, or I think I'm not atleast.

This is why it's so hard to engage in good faith discussions about this stuff, there's a certain amount of eye-opening that has to happen before you can even start to understand any kind of feminist theory. It's difficult for feminists to articulate their developed positions to people who reject their first principles out of hand.

 

[kame-sennin]

MRAs are hate groups, full stop.