-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
The myth of "healthy moderate drinking" has been completely debunked
- Thread starter Bragr
- Start date
TheGreatMusashi
Member
I thought this was common knowledge.
Everything is bought and sold.
Self-destruction is eternal.
Cheers
Everything is bought and sold.
Self-destruction is eternal.
Cheers
You can pry corn on the cob from my cold dead hands.
arkhamguy123
Member
You're basically 100% right but its way too wide spread and socially acceptable in society to garner any sort of support on what you're saying.
Plus its so intertwined in peoples identity that you'll be accused of riding a high horse or being stiff or holier than thou or whatever. People are very defensive about things that are part of their identity.
Last edited:
Nostalgic Nightmare
Member
Still healthier than social media
Last edited:
poodaddy
Member
I don't really have a dog in this race as I'm sober now, but I just wanted to let you know that I never drank to get drunk, and the ONLY thing I miss about alcohol is the taste. Good scotch, a stout aged in bourbon barrels, smooth Japanese whiskey, a dry red wine, spicy rye; I absolutely loved all of that. I wasn't brainwashed by anyone to like it, noone made me try it, I just love it. Again, I don't drink anymore, but your assertion that everyone who claims they enjoy an alcoholic beverage is lying is beyond misinformed.
Sure or guessing?
cause ive seen worse that where real.
fran.fernandez
Member
Almost right, saw a documentary about it
“as early as the Middle Ages, gin was used as a form of herbal medicine. Gin is made from juniper berries, little dark purple nuggets with superfood powers. These berries can help fight infection and prevent heart disease, improve blood circulation and even help fight kidney and liver disease.”
That’s was before gin tonic
nush
Member
Paasei
Member
So far alcohol has been the solution to everything on my life. No clue what you are on about.
But in all seriousness: I don’t need scientists to tell me this. It’s not really that hard to understand alcohol isn’t good for you, no matter how little. But it’s damn good from time to time and I’d rather enjoy life.
But in all seriousness: I don’t need scientists to tell me this. It’s not really that hard to understand alcohol isn’t good for you, no matter how little. But it’s damn good from time to time and I’d rather enjoy life.
Dirk Benedict
Gold Member
It's poison.
Some of these old ads fucking scare the shit out of me, because of the blatant ignorance of the product that was being advertised, or the blatant lying about horribly dangerous shit contained within. There was fucking CIGARETTES with asbestos in them. Kent Cigarettes, for example.
Asbestos Cigarette Filters: History of Kent Micronite & Lawsuits
Cigarette filters produced for Kent Micronite from 1952-1954 contained crocidolite asbestos fibers, the most hazardous of the six types of asbestos.
www.asbestos.com
Cyberpunkd
Member
It’s called taxation - the most efficient method to do anything.
ahtlas7
Member
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
Anyway, while alcohol is damaging to the liver, don’t expect your liver to be safe if you don’t drink. Non-alcoholic fatty liver is on a wild rise everywhere in the world and it’s the prevalent form of liver disease in a good chunk of the “civilized” world already. Basically every person above 35 or so getting a liver ultrasonography these days already has at least an initial stage of fatty liver. The junk we eat every day thinking it’s much safer than alcohol and shit is not really damaging us that much less.
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
I dunno. Have you ever seen piss-poor people quit smoking or drugs because they‘re expensive? I’ve rather seen so many people squandering thousands a year on cigarettes and then complain they’re always penniless.
Smoking was somewhat reduced because of a concerted effort that kicked smokers out of buildings and restaurants and made the public image of smokers unglamorous. Drunk people are funny in the movies. Do with alcohol what’s been done with smoking and you‘ll basically destroy the teen movie industry for a start, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg.
gaming_again
Member
I don't think I've ever heard of "healthy moderate drinking"
Too subtle a point for the internet.
Too subtle a point for the internet.
Last edited:
gaming_again
Member
People haven’t been drinking alcohol for tens of thousands of years because of social pressure, bub.
Cyberpunkd
Member
France is doing something about it with campaign focused on making people realize the dangers of drinking alcohol:
Bragr
Banned
Restricting things are great. It works 99% of the time. The problem was that people were addicted to it and would do whatever it takes to keep it, including supporting organized crime. The animals ran the asylum.
The way that you use words like "I don't have a palette like a damn kid!" just shows how deep you are into this thing, because that idea, that grown men drink, is 100% created by the movie industry. Alcohol and cigarette companies sponsored Hollywood to drink and smoke and tell audiences about how adults drink and smoke. There is a reason why John Wayne smoked, your attitude is bought and paid for by Hollywood, no one would have this attitude unless they got it through the media.
Everyone says they like the taste, but if you go back to the first few times, it's 99% made up. I don't doubt that some like the taste early on, and maybe you are one of these chosen few, but almost everyone goes through a period of getting used to it. It's just people either forgot or won't admit it.
And no teenager has the understanding or knowledge of choosing to start drinking for the rest of their lives. This is a cultural aspect that we in Western societies go through when we are young. We get used to it and tell ourselves it's our doing. But it's just a herd thing, we follow the flock.
Personal responsibility is a murky idea when it comes to alcohol. Yes, there is a degree of responsibility, but just like bad diets, people follow the culture they are in IF it's socially acceptable, if the product is looked down upon, like meth, there is usually more of a choice, but when it comes to alcohol, most people do it because it's a herd thing. People do not have the ability to judge what is good long-term. They will eat/drink themselves to death if others do it. Why do you think so many in the United States are overweight? It's certainly not personal responsibility or a choice, no one chooses to be fat and unhealthy. It's a herd thing, bad food is normal and people can't see the long-term effects until it's upon them, just like anything else, just like alcohol.
The problems are too severe to assume it's all personal responsibility, people can't control it if they start when they are young:
"140,557 Americans die from the effects of alcohol in an average year."
"1-in-10 Americans over the age of 12 have Alcohol Use Disorder."
"Alcohol causes 10% of deaths among 15- to 49-year-olds."
"9.3% of single fathers are alcoholic while 6.3% of single mothers are alcoholic."
https://drugabusestatistics.org/alcohol-abuse-statistics/
Bragr
Banned
Well, yes, that's exactly what they did lol. Do you think social pressure was invented in the '90s?
The kids in a tribe would drink alcohol because their parents did it. They would follow deities because their parents did it. They would hunt with a bow and arrow because their parents did it. Almost all behavior is learned through social groups.
But we can't blame them because they didn't know these things. We don't have that excuse.
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
I scan and collect scans of vintage magazines. I've got 15,000+ vintage magazine scans on my PC. I personally own tons of magazines from the 1920ies up to the 1950ies. Never once seen a cigarette ad telling women to smoke more so their newborn babies would weigh less. That's obvious modern satire. But it's only obvious if you're familiar with actual popular culture from those decades.
Besides that, the belly of that "pregnant" woman is very clearly photoshopped.
--
Ah, I googled "winston ad" and the first hit was a Snopes fact check. Yes, it's fake.
Did Winston Cigarettes Promote 'Smoking for Two'?
Of all the dubious health claims made about the benefits of cigarette smoking, this one seemingly took the cake.
www.snopes.com
Last edited:
gaming_again
Member
Why do monkeys get high if given the opportunity? Or Reindeer? There seems to be an innate animal need to alter one's consciousness that has always been with us. Fads die out.
gaming_again
Member
See, I believed you but then you brought up Snopes!
poodaddy
Member
Dude, you're trying to over intellectualize something that's really quite simple, and no amount of arguing about people's personal preferences will change this: many people do enjoy drinking, because they do enjoy the taste, and because it does help them to relax. It's dangerous though certainly, and many people aren't capable of drinking responsibly, so going sober is definitely the way to go most of the time, but your puritanical bullying and insinuation of people having no control over there mindset and preferences when it comes to drinking really serves to do nothing more than weaken your overall point.
Again, I'm sober. I stopped drinking for reasons of cost, and because my wife was getting grabbed by the bottle so I decided to not have it in the home anymore. That being said, I truly did enjoy my one to two glasses of scotch every other day, and I kept it to that. The first time I ever tried scotch I adored it. Not all scotch is created equal, and quality does matter there, but you're being absurd when you're making the supposition that alcoholic beverages aren't enjoyed for taste. There are so many small and family owned distilleries, breweries, and vineyards that have dedicated their entire adult lives for generations to perfecting their beverage of choice. It's an art form, and then someone like you rolls along ranting about how "it all tastes like shit and everyone who has enjoyed doesn't really enjoy it ya see, they've lied to themselves!" and you can't see how absurd that is? Also, your point about alcohol being enjoyable to men to drink being made up by the movie industry is completely ridiculous when, as you admitted in a another post, people were drinking alcohol for literally thousands of years. Look into the role of beer during the black plague at some point if you can to get some more interesting perspective on the history of beer.
You don't want people to drink, I get it. The world would perhaps be a better place in many ways if most people stopped drinking or drank far less, but this is not the way brother. No alcoholic on the planet is an alcoholic because of peer pressure or societal brainwashing, and when you make that assertion it reveals you as extremely ignorant to the entire concept of alcoholism and what causes it. I was an alcoholic about 14 years ago, and I stopped 12 years ago for over a year straight. I drank because the Army was a very stressful experience for me, as I just wasn't cut out for the military life, so the perceived stress relief of drinking became very addictive to me, and I love the taste of good beverages so there was no peer pressure or greater external societal pressure needed; the bottle grabbed me because I opened the door and let it in with open arms. Noone got me to do it, noone convinced me, I did it because I wanted to feel less, the same reason why my wife was getting grabbed by it as she's very stressed in college right now.
Just try to have some perspective man. I like you dude, but you can't just insinuate that people drink completely due to outside pressures and that they all secretly hate the taste; that is just pure insanity. You've come to the wrong conclusion here, and no amount of faux intellectualism will make your point any truer, as it's based completely out of a factually false narrative about why people drink and why they enjoy it to begin with.
Folks, your poodaddy here urges you to drink responsibly, and as little as you feasibly can. Enjoy some champagne on your anniversary, treat yourself to a glass of the 15 year on your birthday with a New York strip; enjoy the finer things in extreme moderation, and you'll be just fine if you relegate it to rare occasions. Never listen to anyone who peddles extremes, and that goes across the board. Life is best enjoyed when you stay out of the black and white zones and live in the middle.
Last edited:
"Red wine makes blood"
Bragr
Banned
Why do Reindeer get high? what exactly is your point here? are you saying we all got animal instincts to drink and get high?
gaming_again
Member
Bragr
Banned
Just to be clear, I drink on occasion. I am no nun and grew up drinking casually as most do. But over the years I am starting to understand that the idea of "drink in moderation and enjoy yourself" is not a good mentality. Just like bad eating, or smoking. When half the population is so fat they struggle to move and so many become addicted to all sorts of stuff and have to stay on pills to survive, we have to think twice, something is very wrong. This ain't working anymore.
I never said people are alcoholics because of peer pressure. I am saying that's where it starts. I am not saying peer pressure kept you on the bottle, I am aware that addiction stems from conflicts of the mind. I am talking about the reason you started, the reason why you got on it in the first place. Didn't you begin to drink when you were young? even if you somehow never drunk when you were a teenager and started only after the army, you have to look at why it was even an option. It was an option because it was presented as an option and because no one bats an eye when you drink. It's culturally acceptable to become a drunk. Not be drunk, but to become a drunk.
Those initial moments when you get used to it are spurred on because either your friends or family drink, or you got used to it through various exposure. Nobody starts drinking because "it stems the pain", you don't even know that unless someone tells you or you already drink in the first place. You got a problem with the bottle because the seeds of alcohol were already planted, so when stress overwhelmed you, it became an option. I am saying, if alcohol were never presented to you in the first place, through casual drinking or culturally, it would not have been what it was.
Beverages are enjoyed for taste when you are used to them, but not initially. It has to be trained. The stuff you say about distilleries and whatnot, you can say the same thing about cigarettes.
The view you have about breweries literally sounds like you are repeating a brewery commercial. Those commercials when the men sit around the table, enjoying a fine whiskey with some calming music in the background. When you get used to it, and enjoy it, then those commercials and images about enjoying a fine glass become cool, and you get a picture of yourself as the grown man enjoying a fine beverage. "We have perfected the taste for 60 years!".
I am not saying that people have no control over their mindset, I am saying it is overrated how much they can control it when it's presented as normal since they were kids. When it's normal to drink when you are 16 and go to parties where all your mates drink too, personal choice barely even enters the picture.
Bragr
Banned
Sure, I think everyone, maybe even other animals, likes to get spaced once in a while.
But that is a different thing from industrial consumption aimed at huge populations.
The Reindeers aren't drinking this as a normal drink. It's more that they are eating a mushroom once in a while. And the animals that do consume too much, get problematic symptoms.
It's hard to compare this to beer, wine, smoke, or anything like that.
Punished Miku
Gold Member
Cat nip is similar. Cats have no self control and would devolve into pure cat nip degeneracy without restrictions.
NeoIkaruGAF
Gold Member
Mate, this is 100% false and you know it.
The old men of our old men had this idea before movies were an industry, or even a thing.
Some people before the Hollywood era were known for joking (?) about water being good for washing stuff, but not for drinking.
And some people probably actually never drank water if they could avoid it, before the age of readily available clean water. Cholera and typhus could sweep you way more quickly than end-stage liver disease. Alcohol at least was germ-free. And our species has been drinking it before even the written word was a thing, let alone the movie industry.
I myself have known some old mountain blokes who never, ever served water to guests. It was wine or spirits for the adults, and coffee for kids because it was the only non-alcoholic thing they had to drink. Serving (or drinking) water was just a foreign idea to them.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
There is a great video on prohibition on youtube. I forget the channel, but it pointed out how drinking alcohol was safer and cheaper. Also, it was ingrained in american society far more than european societies.
I do think that the constant ads do influence people, but yeah, movie industry doesnt have much to do with this.
That's why I moved to edibles, though. Want to have fun but without as much risk to the system.
you sure you know what chasing the dragon is?
Amory
Member
jeeesus what the fuck
Trogdor1123
Gold Member
Meh, I’ll keep my whiskey…
Grildon Tundy
Gold Member
Besides the outrageous nature pointing to this being satire, there's something about the female model that looks too "modern" and gives it away. I can't articulate what it is so it must be related to makeup style lol
That is CLEARLY a subliminal reference to a blowjob.I know this thread is about alcohol, but those old cigarette ads are pretty wild.
A "T-Zone" ??
Give me a break..
Prove me wrong
I think the UNDENYABLE and OVERWHELMING weight of evidence did smoking in.
Plus the gov got into both taxation AND healthcare. They LOOOOOOOVVEEDD the tax money from tobacco, but once they started having to pay for the end of life medical issues the ledgers just didn't balance out. This is the problem with gov't funded health care. Eventually they go into full cost reduction measures which means they clamp down on every possible risk. But since we ALL die in the end, it is a never ending cycle. It can only stop with...
Koppelthorn
Banned
You and the other guy both make some really good points, and I agree with you that there is a definite memetic aspect to the prevalence of drinking in todays society. Though, its honestly a really hard thing to talk about since there are so many variables, for instance (in theory) a country with an extremely overworked population would likely play into the memetics of "enjoying some of the finer things in life" in terms of liquor/beer consumption. But on the flip side, working for 8 hours+ and then coming to a cozy house and drinking an ice cold beer is objectively (in the sense that the intoxicating feeling one feels, most people interpret it as enjoyable) an action that feels good. Of course, the beer part is only enabled by like you mentioned societal seeds, and to go even deeper the mass production and transport of these products are only available to us because of relatively recent innovations in technology. It gets complicated.
I will say one thing, my parents both were heavy drinkers and had problems with it, and for a period of time when I was 14-15 I drank liquor and beer heavily to numb myself. If I had been in a different environment, that coping mechanism likely wouldn't have happened, just as an example to illustrate your point.
Bragr
Banned
I think you misunderstand what I wrote, I am specifically replying to his words and attitude, I am not saying that the idea of grown men drinking was made by Hollywood.
I am saying they have produced an image of the "real man" who drinks in a rustic cabin with a flannel shirt, a man who enjoys his liquor. And that this image has had a big impact on the modern man who drinks.
I am saying it because people are almost word for word relaying such commercials. Just look at this thread, how many react with "I am not a fucking kid, and I enjoy the taste of liquor with my food on the weekends, it's my own choice and I like it" like it's a classy and cool thing to do. The producers want you to store up bottles, to keep them at home, away from the pub, it is how they make their money.
If you go back further before the 20th century, drinking was very different from place to place. Here, it was mostly a few pubs in some big cities, it was common for people to never really taste alcohol until in their 20s when they got a sip of wine at some wedding. While other places, people drank themselves to hell and back. I think it's safe to say that people's drinking habits were far worse before, in the places where they had it.