• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

The no-holds h-barred Quantum Mechanics Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

SuperBonk

Member
"There was a time when the newspapers said that only twelve men understood the theory of relativity. I do not believe that there ever was such a time. There might have been a time when only one man did, because he was the only guy who caught on, before he wrote his paper. But after people read the paper a lot of people understood the theory of relativity in some way or other, certainly more than twelve. On the other hand, I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." -Richard Feynman


5kgkdx.gif




So a few months ago, in one of the science threads that sporadically pop here now and then, the discussion touched a little bit on quantum mechanics (QM). I mentioned that it would be great to have a separate thread just to discuss QM and someone PM'ed me telling me I should create one. At the time, I didn't know much about QM myself, so I didn't really consider it. But after a few lectures in physical chemistry combined with exposure to the official Space thread that gets bumped frequently, and the fairly successful official evolution thread, I've decided to take the plunge. While the chances are likely this will fall on deaf ears, I'd love for anybody interested to participate, because as seen from the quote above, there are no stupid questions.

Since people seem to be very interested in evolution and space, I thought it would be good to have a thread dedicated to another mind-bending aspect of the universe, especially one that is not understood very well. There is good reason for this. Quantum mechanics is complicated, and has several weird implications. But as it turns out, it's not as weird as one may think. Quantum mechanical theories have proven to be more successful than any other scientific theory in human history. They agree with experimental results to an absurd amount of significant figures. QM is largely responsible for the technological boom in the last 30 years and will be of increased importance going forward by introducing things like quantum computing.

So where do we start? Well, you might ask:

WHAT EXACTLY IS QUANTUM MECHANICS?

Quantum mechanics refers to the idea that things that we once thought were continuous are actually quantized. What does this mean? Quantization means that only specific values are applicable. For example, the grades of school are quantized. There is no such thing has 10.1th or 9.9th grade, it is either 9th grade or 10th grade. They each have their own discrete value.

That sounds easy enough. Why is it so complicated?

If you think about it, quantization is very hard to wrap our heads around since there's no real reason this should be the case. For example, when you run, your body does a certain amount of work. Your intuition suggests that the work you did is continuous and could take any value depending on the distance you ran. Quantum mechanics says this is not the case. Instead, the work you did can only take on certain values, which are integer multiples of a base value. For example, if the base value is 3 "units", you can only do multiples of 3 units of work. You cannot do 5, 7, 14, or 67.3 units of work, no matter what.

Ok, but how do we know this is the case? And how did anybody figure this out?

Quantization depends on h, the Planck constant. Since h is 6.626*10^-34 J*s (where J is joules, a unit of energy, and s is seconds) is an incredibly tiny number, it's hard to see the effects of QM in everyday life. That said, as technology got better, we were able to probe deeper and discovered a whole new universe, figuratively of course.

The History of Quantum Mechanics

At the end of the 19th century, when Newton's Laws had been the dominant laws of physics for ages and electromagnetism had been figured out by Maxwell, physics was considered a finished field. Children were encouraged not to go into physics because people believed everything had been solved, and only a few inconsequential problems remained. Unfortunately those problems turned out to destroy the entire fabric of the science. What were these problems? There were quite a few, some of which deal with relativity which I'll touch on later. The problems which lead to the discovery of quantum mechanics are blackbody radiation, the photoelectric effect, and atomic spectra. All of these are summarized here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_constant#Origins

A rough summary is that blackbody radiation showed that energy is not continuous and takes on quantized values. The photoelectric effect shows us that light itself is quantized into individual photons. This is what Einstein won the Nobel Prize for, not relativity. At the time, light was thought to be a wave based on countless experiments. Quantum theory did not dispel this notion. Unfortunately, light is a wave and a particle. The same is true for every single thing in the universe.
Atomic spectra showed that atoms could only absorb and emit specific frequencies of light, meaning atomic structure was also quantized. These theories revolutionized the field and the quantum era was in full swing.

The Math

I'll try to make this as painless as possible while still explaining the main consequences. For reasons I won't go into, quantization implies two very bizarre things which are closely linked.

First, we have the Schroedinger Equation

I linked the time independent equation because it is the simplest case. What it implies is that every particle can be described by a wavefunction which through the Schroedinger Equation tells you its energy. Yeah, I know it looks and sounds complicated, but that's because it is. Psi, the pitchfork looking symbol, is the wavefunction, E is the energy, and H is the Hamiltonian operator which tells you what to do with the wavefunction (those of you that have taken linear algebra may recognize it). What exactly is a wavefunction? It's a mathematical function describes the "wave" nature of the particle and is dependent on at least one quantum number. Schroedinger himself, when applying it to the electron and its negative charge, thought the wavefunction was the representation of the "spread" of the charge, as if someone had used the smudge tool on photoshop and spread the charge all over the canvas. For other physical reasons, this idea does not work. Then came Max Born who theorized that the wavefunction* was actually describing a probability of where the electron was in space. Areas where the wavefunction is large means the electron has a high chance of being found there. This is the dominant view of physics today. But this means that we will never know where the electron actually is as well as the fact that the electron has a chance of being practically anywhere. This leads us to:

The Uncertainty Principle

There are many misconceptions about this principle so I'll be as straightforward as possible. All the principle states is that we cannot simultaneously know the exact values of momentum and position of any particle, but only a region of their values. I will provide a loose analogy. Imagine you're in a dark room and you can't see anything and aren't allowed to touch anything. You are given the task of finding six basketballs in the room. In order to do this, you are given an infinite amount of footballs to try and hit the other basketballs. You will know where the basketball is once you've hit it with your football. The problem is that once you hit the basketball, it moves and is no longer in the place it was. So, you can never know the exact position of any basketball at any present time. Since Planck's constant is so small, this has zero effect on everyday life. So referees in American football do not need to take it into account when measuring for a first down. An important aspect though, is that the uncertainty is intrinsic to the universe itself, not the measuring devices that we use. The universe says the room is always dark.

Implications and Consequences

While the math above has proven to be perfect on countless occasions, the ideas from the above section sound pretty terrifying and/or complicated. But as mentioned before, the tiny value of Planck's constant makes these bizarre things only observable at subatomic levels. Those of you who have taken introductory physics should know that Newton's 2nd Law F = ma holds true for pretty much every practical purpose. As a matter of fact, when the Schroedinger equation is applied to these practical purposes, it reproduces Newton's 2nd Law! That is actually quite astonishing since it makes F = ma no longer a postulate (of course, the Schroedinger equation takes its place as the postulate). In general terms, when you use high enough quantum numbers in the wavefunction, the behavior predicted by classical/Newtonian mechanics is also predicted by the Schroedinger equation.

That said, the whole wave-particle duality thing is kind of disheartening. How can a matter be both a wave and a particle? What does that even mean? That's a little too complicated for me to explain in simple terms so I'll just link to this video given by Feynman himself and leave the rest up to discussion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7OEzyEfzgg

That's as far as I'll go for now but I'll be sure to update the OP with any useful links and information. I'm by no means an authority in this field and I'm sure there are several of you who have a vast knowledge of it. Please feel free to correct/elaborate on anything I've said and add anything you find interesting.

I'm sure this thread will not be as popular as the evolution or space threads since it doesn't have the controversy or the pretty pictures. But there are definitely some fascinating things to be discussed. The most popular topic is perhaps the various theories that are trying to solve the inconsistency between relativity and quantum mechanics. The most popular of these is of course string theory, which I'm sure will lead to some of the best discussions in this thread. I'll be sure to put some more information about it in the OP, but that's for another day.


Until then, why we still got point particles?
 

SuperBonk

Member
Door2Dawn said:
the fuck does all this shit mean
:lol

I realize the OP might be a little too technical for people who don't have much experience with the subject. I'll try to work on that later. But don't be afraid to ask questions about anything you're not sure about.
 
SuperBonk said:
So where do we start? Well, you might ask:

WHAT EXACTLY IS QUANTUM MECHANICS?

Quantum mechanics refers to the idea that things that we once thought were continuous are actually quantized. What does this mean? Quantization means that only specific values are applicable. For example, the grades of school are quantized. There is no such thing has 10.1th or 9.9th grade, it is either 9th grade or 10th grade. They each have their own discrete value.

That sounds easy enough. Why is it so complicated?

If you think about it, quantization is very hard to wrap our heads around since there's no real reason this should be the case. For example, when you run, your body does a certain amount of work. Your intuition suggests that the work you did is continuous and could take any value depending on the distance you ran. Quantum mechanics says this is not the case. Instead, the work you did can only take on certain values, which are integer multiples of a base value. For example, if the base value is 3 "units", you can only do multiples of 3 units of work. You cannot do 5, 7, 14, or 67.3 units of work, no matter what.
I had a harder part wrapping my mind around this compared to everything else. The parts that came later actually sound much more solid and tangible compared to this.

Is there something wrong with me?
 

SuperBonk

Member
SolarPowered said:
I had a harder part wrapping my mind around this compared to everything else. The parts that came later actually sound much more solid and tangible compared to this.

Is there something wrong with me?
No worries, I have trouble wrapping my mind around everything about QM.

I suppose quantization is best understood through photons (especially since you seem to understand that better). A beam of light is made up of individual packets of light called photons. The beam is not a continuous ray. This is essentially what quantization refers to: light is quantized into photons. You can't have 1.5 "photons-worth" of light, only integer multiples. Quantum mechanics says the same is true for all other types of energy and matter in the universe.

However, photons do not stop light from behaving like a ray (or wave). Experiments determined to show that light is a wave are successful. Experiments that are determined to show light is a particle are also successful. Hence, it is both a particle and a wave.
 

Brainboy

Member
Great thread and OP! As a physics graduate it's hard for me to tell whether the review is newbie-friendly or not, but I think it's pretty good! :lol
 

SuperBonk

Member
Seda said:
I can try to explain further but that may not help.

Quantization is basically turning something normally seen as a continuous phenomenon (Like light) into infinitesimal chunks. We call these photons for light. But do not think of Photons as little balls of light. They are "chunked" ripples that act like particles. SuperBonk called these packets and that's a great way to describe what these particles are.

Electrons and other fermions can be seen in the same way: they can be described as ripples/excitations in a field. Classically, we understand Physics as though everything is particles and fields. In quantum, this resolves into "everything is particles," which then resolves into "everything is fields."

Quantum particles are regarded as excited states of a field (called field quanta).
Great explanation! You even managed to go over my head a little. :lol

I've always had a hard time grasping the whole field concept, but I've been trying to read up on it. I still have trouble wrapping my head around magnetism, one of the very few things I share with ICP.

And thanks Brainboy!
 

ILikeFeet

Banned
SuperBonk, do you think yoy can explain Schrödinger's Cat? I just read that it was an extreme example, but I don't understand how the cat lives and dies. I'm guessing the particle's decay is throwing me off (not that I understand anything else here :lol )
 
SuperBonk said:
No worries, I have trouble wrapping my mind around everything about QM.

I suppose quantization is best understood through photons (especially since you seem to understand that better). A beam of light is made up of individual packets of light called photons. The beam is not a continuous ray. This is essentially what quantization refers to: light is quantized into photons. You can't have 1.5 "photons-worth" of light, only integer multiples. Quantum mechanics says the same is true for all other types of energy and matter in the universe.

However, photons do not stop light from behaving like a ray (or wave). Experiments determined to show that light is a wave are successful. Experiments that are determined to show light is a particle are also successful. Hence, it is both a particle and a wave.

Seda said:
I can try to explain further but that may not help.

Quantization is basically turning something normally seen as a continuous phenomenon (Like light) into infinitesimal chunks. We call these photons for light. But do not think of Photons as little balls of light. They are "chunked" ripples that act like particles. SuperBonk called these packets and that's a great way to describe what these particles are.

Electrons and other fermions can be seen in the same way: they can be described as ripples/excitations in a field. Classically, we understand Physics as though everything is particles and fields. In quantum, this resolves into "everything is particles," which then resolves into "everything is fields."

Quantum particles are regarded as excited states of a field (called field quanta).
Both you and bonk provided an awesome explanation regarding light. In my mind I imagine that light would be made up of packet-like photons stuck to one another(they all have the same value) in some sort of pseudo chain that behaves like a wave/is a wave.

I must admit that I'm having a hard time applying the same principle towards the "work" and "grade" examples because of how society has taught us to think. It's hard to imagine that all "work" is not continuous because it then leaves me wondering why this energy expenditure is organized this way and why it could not be continuous. Perceiving light as both a wave and a particle seems easy as pie compared to this.
 

SuperBonk

Member
ILikeFeet said:
SuperBonk, do you think yoy can explain Schrödinger's Cat? I just read that it was an extreme example, but I don't understand how the cat lives and dies. I'm guessing the particle's decay is throwing me off (not that I understand anything else here :lol )
No problem! This was definitely going to come up sooner or later so I'll probably put it in the OP. Schrodinger's Cat is a thought experiment proposed by Schrodinger in order to show the ridiculous consequences of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. This interpretation basically states that every particle can be defined by a wavefunction which can only tell you the probability of what state the particle is actually in.

The experiment is as follows:

Schrodinger said:
One can even set up quite ridiculous cases. A cat is penned up in a steel chamber, along with the following device (which must be secured against direct interference by the cat): in a Geiger counter, there is a tiny bit of radioactive substance, so small that perhaps in the course of the hour, one of the atoms decays, but also, with equal probability, perhaps none; if it happens, the counter tube discharges, and through a relay releases a hammer that shatters a small flask of hydrocyanic acid. If one has left this entire system to itself for an hour, one would say that the cat still lives if meanwhile no atom has decayed. The psi-function of the entire system would express this by having in it the living and dead cat (pardon the expression) mixed or smeared out in equal parts.

It is typical of these cases that an indeterminacy originally restricted to the atomic domain becomes transformed into macroscopic indeterminacy, which can then be resolved by direct observation. That prevents us from so naively accepting as valid a "blurred model" for representing reality. In itself, it would not embody anything unclear or contradictory. There is a difference between a shaky or out-of-focus photograph and a snapshot of clouds and fog banks.

Basically, the experiment is set up so that the atom has a 50% chance of decaying in the first hour. If it decays, then it will release the hydrocyanic acid and kill the cat. This essentially means that the cat has a 50/50 chance of surviving. Therefore, using the Copenhagen interpretation, the cat must follow the probability produced by this wavefunction, resulting in the cat being in a half-dead/half-alive state. Of course, such a state seemed ridiculous to Schrodinger which is why he could not accept the Copenhagen interpretation. However, some experiments have led people to believe that this is precisely what happens, albeit on a subatomic scale. Further research into the phenomenon has not produced any definitive results and many interpretations still exist today.
 
Such a great subject. Very nice explanation, too.

Any favorite books on QM (preferably more technical)? I like Shankar and Ballentine's textbooks a lot. Probability theory is one of my main interests, so I especially like treatments that focus more on that.
 

SuperBonk

Member
SolarPowered said:
Both you and bonk provided an awesome explanation regarding light. In my mind I imagine that light would be made up of packet-like photons stuck to one another(they all have the same value) in some sort of pseudo chain that behaves like a wave/is a wave.

I must admit that I'm having a hard time applying the same principle towards the "work" and "grade" examples because of how society has taught us to think. It's hard to imagine that all "work" is not continuous because it then leaves me wondering why this energy expenditure is organized this way and why it could not be continuous. Perceiving light as both a wave and a particle seems easy as pie compared to this.
The thing you have to remember though is that light is not really a wave and particle at the same time. It is either a particle or a wave, depending on how you're looking at it.

The grade example is just an analogy from everyday life to understand quantization. The terms 9.5th grade or 10.1th grade do not exist in our vocabulary. They are quantized because of society, not because of physics. The same is true for money, which is quantized down to 1 cent in the US.

In order to understand the work example, forget about running and let's continue to focus on light. Work can be described by transferred energy and light energy can be calculated by the equation E = hf, where E is the energy, h is Planck's constant and f is the frequency of the light.*

Now, if we were to shine one photon of red light (frequency ~ 4.3*10^12 Hertz), we would get a total energy of E = (6.626*10^-34 Joule-seconds)(4.3*10^12 Hertz) = 2.85*10^-21 Joules.

If we were to shine additional red light, the total energy output must be a multiple of this number, since adding more light would increase the number of photons in integer multiples. This is because light is quantized into photons.

*The more correct form is to replace f with the greek letter nu for frequency
 

Brainboy

Member
SuperBonk said:
No problem! This was definitely going to come up sooner or later so I'll probably put it in the OP. Schrodinger's Cat is a thought experiment proposed by Schrodinger in order to show the ridiculous consequences of the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics. This interpretation basically states that every particle can be defined by a wavefunction which can only tell you the probability of what state the particle is actually in.

The experiment is as follows:



Basically, the experiment is set up so that the atom has a 50% chance of decaying in the first hour. If it decays, then it will release the hydrocyanic acid and kill the cat. This essentially means that the cat has a 50/50 chance of surviving. Therefore, using the Copenhagen interpretation, the cat must follow the probability produced by this wavefunction, resulting in the cat being in a half-dead/half-alive state. Of course, such a state seemed ridiculous to Schrodinger which is why he could not accept the Copenhagen interpretation. However, some experiments have led people to believe that this is precisely what happens, albeit on a subatomic scale. Further research into the phenomenon has not produced any definitive results and many interpretations still exist today.

The aspect of this that always intrigues me is that it depends on your definition of an "observation". In Schroedinger's example, he literally defines an observation as a human being observing an event (i.e. opening the box). In my opinion, any macroscopic object (i.e. anything that cannot in itself be in a mixed quantum state) can "observe" the particle's wavefunction. So Schroedinger's cat is already determined to be either dead or alive by the fact that the Geiger counter "observes" the state of the particle.

Of course the real question that follows this is where to draw the line between the quantum world and the macroscopic world. It's not something we really have an answer to at the moment, and it's a big part of unifying the theories of quantum mechanics and relativity.
 
SuperBonk said:
The thing you have to remember though is that light is not really a wave and particle at the same time. It is either a particle or a wave, depending on how you're looking at it.

In order to understand the work example, forget about running and let's continue to focus on light. Work can be described by transferred energy and light energy can be calculated by the equation E = hf, where E is the energy, h is Planck's constant and f is the frequency of the light.*

Now, if we were to shine one photon of red light (frequency ~ 4.3*10^12 Hertz), we would get a total energy of E = (6.626*10^-34 Joule-seconds)(4.3*10^12 Hertz) = 2.85*10^-21 Joules.

If we were to shine additional red light, the total energy output must be a multiple of this number, since adding more light would increase the number of photons in integer multiples. This is because light is quantized into photons.

*The more correct form is to replace f with the greek letter nu for frequency
Perfect explanation.

You cleared up my misunderstanding regarding light very well. It's a great explanation because it agrees with common sense(I can't imagine equations involving 1.495 photons of light) and the numbers certainly don't lie.

I may have more questions, but I should leave them for another time.

goodnight.
 

SuperBonk

Member
bumbillbee said:
Such a great subject. Very nice explanation, too.

Any favorite books on QM (preferably more technical)? I like Shankar and Ballentine's textbooks a lot. Probability theory is one of my main interests, so I especially like treatments that focus more on that.
Yeah, my professor spoke very highly of Shankar's Principles of Quantum Mechanics.

As for me, I'm not very well versed in the technical side of QM and most of my knowledge comes from McQuarrie's Physical Chemistry, which focuses a lot on thermo and statistical mechanics. It being a p-chem textbook and all. :lol
 

bobbytkc

ADD New Gen Gamer
The basis for quantum mechanics is actually pretty simple for anyone who took a quantum mechanics course at the university level. It simply says that the time evolution of the matter wave (first proposed by de broglie) is determined by the Hamiltonian (essentially, the sum of the kinetic and potential energy at the point).

The fact that the time evolution of a particle depends on the hamiltonian is absolutely no surprise to anyone at all. An example would be placing the ball on the side of the hill. The curvature of the hill tells you where the ball will go the very next moment (i.e. down). The potential energy experienced by a particle is EXACTLY like a hill for a ball to climb, and the hamiltonian works just like that - it takes the amount of energy the particle has, and tells you where it will go next.

Classically the Hamiltonian is used to determine the time evolution of physical systems composed of particles. The equation is simply rephrased slightly for (matter) waves now.

The problem for quantum mechanics is that the equation is nigh impossible to solve for anything more complicated than a single particle system. Conceptually, QM is not difficult, all the hocus pocus, the quantizations, the particle wave duality, all of these arise naturally from schodinger's equation because they form the only possible set of solutions that satisfy the equations of quantum mechanics (Schrodinger's Equations).

There is really very little to think about except to realize that Schrodinger's equation is the right equation to describe how nature behaves. All there is to do is simply to apply the equation to various kinds of systems, and every now and then, we find something new simply because we just didn't have the right physical equation before, and now we do.
 

bobbytkc

ADD New Gen Gamer
SuperBonk said:
Yeah, my professor spoke very highly of Shankar's Principles of Quantum Mechanics.

As for me, I'm not very well versed in the technical side of QM and most of my knowledge comes from McQuarrie's Physical Chemistry, which focuses a lot on thermo and statistical mechanics. It being a p-chem textbook and all. :lol


Hi superbonk,

It is just a personal opinion, but I think that you should perhaps put the time dependent schodinger equation in the OP as well. The equation you have posted is the time independent one, which is really a kind of a special case, although it is certainly valid the vast majority of the time, and it is the equation which most people will use.
 
Expressing my appreciation and excitement for this thread, I hope it takes off! That said, the only way to a true theory of everything is by marrying what we know via relativity and qm assuming this is the right path correct? And the biggest pie pieces that are missing are the Higgs bison, and the graviton? Could anyone delve into m theory a little?
 

bobbytkc

ADD New Gen Gamer
SolarPowered said:
Both you and bonk provided an awesome explanation regarding light. In my mind I imagine that light would be made up of packet-like photons stuck to one another(they all have the same value) in some sort of pseudo chain that behaves like a wave/is a wave.

I must admit that I'm having a hard time applying the same principle towards the "work" and "grade" examples because of how society has taught us to think. It's hard to imagine that all "work" is not continuous because it then leaves me wondering why this energy expenditure is organized this way and why it could not be continuous. Perceiving light as both a wave and a particle seems easy as pie compared to this.

work CAN be continuous, there is no issue with that as well. It is only quantized when a particle is BOUNDED inside some kind of potential (like when an electron is bounded to a nucleus, like in an atom). It only looks like work is not continuous because quite frankly, the kinds of situations which are of interest to us are usually of particles in some kind of potential.
 

itxaka

Defeatist
Damn, I always thought that the cat thing was about looking at the box.

Wasn't there an experiment that showed that Quanton mechanics were so special that even the observation of the effect could change the outcome?

Fake edit: My explanation seems stupid let's try again.

The cat in in the box. It has a 50/50 chance to be alive/dead. When you open the box to observe the results you could be changing them so you can't observe it without altering the results, thus making the cat dead and alive at the same time.

Yeah, that sounds much better. Much more closer to what I tried to say.
 

zoku88

Member
I took a quantum computation class last year. I'm so glad that computation can be fully down just using linear algebra. I'm not sure if I could take a real quantum mechanics course.
 
itxaka said:
Damn, I always thought that the cat thing was about looking at the box.

Wasn't there an experiment that showed that Quanton mechanics were so special that even the observation of the effect could change the outcome?

Fake edit: My explanation seems stupid let's try again.

The cat in in the box. It has a 50/50 chance to be alive/dead. When you open the box to observe the results you could be changing them so you can't observe it without altering the results, thus making the cat dead and alive at the same time.

Yeah, that sounds much better. Much more closer to what I tried to say.

I think that's the uncertainty principle.
 

bobbytkc

ADD New Gen Gamer
zoku88 said:
I took a quantum computation class last year. I'm so glad that computation can be fully down just using linear algebra. I'm not sure if I could take a real quantum mechanics course.


The basic quantum mechanics course is not really that difficult. Linear algebra is helpful, but I would think that some knowledge of solving differential equations would be great as well. I'd say you can try taking it one semester, it'll be nice because at least you'll get a feel for some modern day physics.
 
SuperBonk said:
No worries, I have trouble wrapping my mind around everything about QM.

I suppose quantization is best understood through photons (especially since you seem to understand that better). A beam of light is made up of individual packets of light called photons. The beam is not a continuous ray. This is essentially what quantization refers to: light is quantized into photons. You can't have 1.5 "photons-worth" of light, only integer multiples. Quantum mechanics says the same is true for all other types of energy and matter in the universe.

However, photons do not stop light from behaving like a ray (or wave). Experiments determined to show that light is a wave are successful. Experiments that are determined to show light is a particle are also successful. Hence, it is both a particle and a wave.
that was great.

now i'm instantly in to this. damn you.. i have to work.. but i can't.
 

bobbytkc

ADD New Gen Gamer
Always-honest said:
that was great.

now i'm instantly in to this. damn you.. i have to work.. but i can't.

haha, I understand. Physics can be very cool to think about. It is just that learning physics takes a hell of a lot of work...
 

tHoMNZ

Member
Question: Is it valid to argue that diffraction is a result of the uncertainty principle? For example: shooting microwaves through a narrow slit, you are essentially forcing the photons through a known area, in this case localizing the position of the photons in that dimension (lets assume the slit is vertical so it's horizontal location is known, DeltaX~0) So therefore we know less about the photon's momenta in that dimension also. So after encountering the slit, the photon's momenta is spread over DeltaP, causing the spreading (momentum is a vector quantity). My physics lecturer agreed, but i'd like to get your take on it.
 
itxaka said:
Damn, I always thought that the cat thing was about looking at the box.

Wasn't there an experiment that showed that Quanton mechanics were so special that even the observation of the effect could change the outcome?

Fake

double slit experiment?
 

zoku88

Member
bobbytkc said:
The basic quantum mechanics course is not really that difficult. Linear algebra is helpful, but I would think that some knowledge of solving differential equations would be great as well. I'd say you can try taking it one semester, it'll be nice because at least you'll get a feel for some modern day physics.
I've already graduated, lol.
 

Corky

Nine out of ten orphans can't tell the difference.
SIGH...


you just had to. You just HAD to remind me that I haven't passed my QM course....

sadpie
 

AlternativeUlster

Absolutely pathetic part deux
Great thread. I used to be really into this stuff when I was in high school when I reah one of Feynman`s books. Will contribute more when I am not typing this on my phone.
 

LeonEight

Neo Member
itxaka said:
Damn, I always thought that the cat thing was about looking at the box.

Wasn't there an experiment that showed that Quanton mechanics were so special that even the observation of the effect could change the outcome?

Fake edit: My explanation seems stupid let's try again.

The cat in in the box. It has a 50/50 chance to be alive/dead. When you open the box to observe the results you could be changing them so you can't observe it without altering the results, thus making the cat dead and alive at the same time.

Yeah, that sounds much better. Much more closer to what I tried to say.

The cat is not dead and alive at the same time. Its either dead or alive. A or B. Whether we know if its a or b doesn't change the fact that it can only be A or B. When the box is closed we just don´t know or can´t predict whether the cat will be A or B when we open it. We just know the probability of it.

Right? I don't know much about quantum mechanics but that's just pure logic.
 
tHoMNZ said:
Question: Is it valid to argue that diffraction is a result of the uncertainty principle? For example: shooting microwaves through a narrow slit, you are essentially forcing the photons through a known area, in this case localizing the position of the photons in that dimension (lets assume the slit is vertical so it's horizontal location is known, DeltaX~0) So therefore we know less about the photon's momenta in that dimension also. So after encountering the slit, the photon's momenta is spread over DeltaP, causing the spreading (momentum is a vector quantity). My physics lecturer agreed, but i'd like to get your take on it.

Interesting question. Classical Optics and Quantum Mechanics/Optics have many similarities in their mathematics, but for different reasons. There is an optics version of the uncertainty principle, which basically says that there is a fundamental non-zero uncertainty in the wave-vector (direction of motion) and position of a light beam.

The mathematical reason is due to constraining how light can behave, like through a slit. If you have a light beam that has zero uncertainty in its wave vector then it has infinite uncertainty in its position and visa versa. And momentum is a function of the length of wave vector. This is how diffraction is indeed usually explained. It's an effect describable as the average of all the uncertainties of all the photons in the light beam moving through the slit or any other constraining object.

But this is a pure CLASSICAL result, due to mathematical operations. Meaning, any wave-based mathematics has a version of the uncertainty principle. The explanation is too technical, but there is no notion of photons or whatsoever in C.O.. A lot of C.O. turns out to have properties that fit very well in the quantum world.
 

LCfiner

Member
great OP.

I studied real basic QM stuff back in school and have read lots of layman level books about it since and find this shit so interesting. it's crazy and non intuitive how the atomic world works but, nevertheless, it's real and proven by experiments.
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
Very interesting thread... last week I was reading a bunch of Quantum physics-related pages on Wikipedia (i.e. subatomic particles, the Planck constant, Schrodinger's Equation)... but being someone who struggled with HS physics, a lot of it was over my head. Some of your analogies you used were very good...

..so how about trying to explain String Theory in layman's terms? :D
 

nitewulf

Member
String Theory in layman's terms is basically Michio Kaku's books...he explains things very simply.

Schroedinger's equation is basically a second order differential equation that describes the energy states of electrons. if you recall back to your high school chemistry courses, and recall the shell states you had to memorize...that's what quantized energy states are.

you can think of it like rungs on a ladder that are spaced strangely, and could only be climbed by having sufficient energy to close the gap between them. so if you fire a lot of energy into atoms, electrons can gain this energy and jump states, but without sufficient energy, they remain where they are.

and when they release the quantized energy back, they go back down this ladder of energy.

i dont have any of my notes anymore, but i had to solve the schroedinger's equation to show electron tunneling, it took me about 8-10 handwritten pages of calculation on 11 X 17 inch paper. i got 120/100 on the exam.

then again, my college was tough, i had to do the same thing for electromagnetics and show using Maxwell equations that Electrical waves were equivalent to their Magnetic wave counterparts. the electromagnetic wave functions have the same form as Schrodinger equations as well...so QM was easier for me to grasp after the tough as nails E&M courses. I wish ppl concentrated more on E&M, that's something ppl don't think much about at all.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom