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[THEAP99]

Neil Druckmann is too busy in Canada with hookers to get anything done. It's really unbelievable and unacceptable that factions has not been officially revealed when at one point tlou2 was supposed to launch with it

 

[Azurro]

Looks like all Naughty Dog threads turn into the Last of Us Part II therapy session. The same people show up to rant about the game.


The Last of Us Part II wasn't for the emotionally weak.

I didn't know you had to be emotionally strong to see angry lesbians being angry.

 

[VulcanRaven]

The Last of Us Part 2 was released last year.

 

[SlimySnake]

From the last 10 years:

2011- Uncharted 3
2013 - The Last of Us (new IP)
2014 - The Last of Us: Left Behind
2014 - The Last of Us (PS4 Remaster)
2016 - Uncharted 4
2017 - Uncharted The Lost Legacy (i still don't get how they managed a game almost as big as the 1st Uncharted in a year and half but okay...this was fast as hell)
2020 - The Last of Us 2 - Out less than 3 years after their latest game. One of the most ambitious games ever for Sony.
2022 - Uncharted Legacy of Thieves Collection (supposedly they are working on the PS5 version only)

We also have TLOU remake, Factions and are working on a new IP. The remake and factions are probably releasing next year to coincide with the TV show.

Sounds to me nothing happened to them? They have 3 or 4 undergoing projects, That's more than all Sony studios.
They are one of Sony's biggest studios of the past 10 years and that's not changing soon.

Yeah I listed them all in my op. I know they have been traditionally very productive but this is the first time they have gone 1.5 years without revealing a new project after finishing one. Typically a smaller project like factions would’ve already been released in this time span. They would’ve also released a tlou2 remaster.

It is interesting to compare them to sucker punch because they have done all that in the last 18 months. A new mp mode, a ps5 port, and a DLC expansion.

 

[VulcanRaven]

They probably planned to release the multiplayer earlier but then the scope got a lot bigger. Maybe there will be a battle royale mode or something. I hope it still gets released on PS4 too.

 

[SquillieDee]

BAM! THIS! I liked Uncharted 4 too though. I thought it was a good ending to the adventures of Nathan Drake and it had an emotional component for me in that it was kinda sad to see the end, even though the ending was a good and happy one. But yeah...TLOU2. They lost me. I actually regretted having pre-ordered it. When that "leak" scandal happened I told myself "No way....they know what sells as well and they just wouldn't DO that kind of thing to the characters in the story AND/OR the gamers." It's the only ND game that I haven't replayed and indeed I have NO DESIRE to replay it. It has nothing for me. They can call it 'subverting expectations,' but that's BS. It was a betrayal of the fans. The story was so ploddingly predictable as well once you got from the beginning because they clearly set the tone for what kind of a story it was going to be. Just horrendous. They could so EASILY have made the story GREAT, even while keeping a lot of the same story events. Tweaking events a little would have made a HUGE impact. But no...they had they had to go as woke as possible and intentionally try to destroy all the characters they did such a great job of developing in the first game. And they did it in such a ham-handed and clumsy way, I have to conclude that their success with the first game and story was a fluke. I think they even failed on the woke things they introduced. It was like they just had checkboxes. Like 'Oh lookie....we have a TRANS CHARACTER IN THE GAME NOW. LOOK AT US!' But they did it in such a trivialized manner that had absolutely zero weight or investment in the story to it. Frankly I think it was more insulting to that community than being the 'inclusive' thing they meant it to be. They could have made that interesting and integral to the story as well but it's like they didn't even try. Reminds me of how "the Last Jedi" seemed to intentionally take all the story arcs that were set up in "The Force Awakens" and just stomp them into oblivion. Or how the "Rise of Skywalker" casually removed the whole cause and reason for the Star Wars stories to begin with!


But back to Naughty Dog. It wouldn't surprise me if they've become a victim of their own wokeness. I'm betting they've been presenting projects and stories but they are so whack-a-doodle so far that they're not getting approved. Maybe I'm wrong, but the fact remains that a highly prolific and talented studio has suddenly gone completely dark. Not even RUMORS of them working on something fantastic and 'just wait till you see it!' So something way wrong. I hope I'M wrong, but I don't think I am. These fools got too arrogant and too high on their previous success and thus turned against what MADE them successful. Until they fix that, they probably won't be as big as they were.

I see people here still have no clue what woke means... Shits hilarious, and annoying.. do your research...

 

[emmerrei]

For sure, hiring people only basing on their race and sexuality is doing great to the studio. I wonder what spectacular things will come out. Can't wait for Tomb Raider 5.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

Yeah I listed them all in my op. I know they have been traditionally very productive but this is the first time they have gone 1.5 years without revealing a new project after finishing one. Typically a smaller project like factions would’ve already been released in this time span. They would’ve also released a tlou2 remaster.

It is interesting to compare them to sucker punch because they have done all that in the last 18 months. A new mp mode, a ps5 port, and a DLC expansion.

Isn't that mostly due to how Sony operates now? Except for Insomniac no one is revealing games too soon now. The only Sony games we have actual footage are 2 games that were a part of the PS5 reveal and God of War. We haven't seen anything else.

About sucker punch... the MP is just an add on to the main game. Not a standalone and ambitious project like apparently Naughty Dog is doing. They were even doing mocap a few months ago with some characters of tlou2 game for their multiplayer game. The PS5 port of tlou2 is honestly going to be released around the time the TV show is. I'm sure that's what they are waiting for. The remake of the original game is also getting ready for that I'm sure.
They still gave us the 60fps patch for the PS4 version.

I think it's only a matter of timing. They are doing a lot for TLOU IP at the same time. A remake, a remaster, an online experience to come out around the time the TV also releases and a remaster for uncharted to be released before the movie.

If anything naughty Dog was never this busy. Just because they don't announce anything means little right now considering almost no Sony studios are doing that.

 

[SlimySnake]

BAM! THIS! I liked Uncharted 4 too though. I thought it was a good ending to the adventures of Nathan Drake and it had an emotional component for me in that it was kinda sad to see the end, even though the ending was a good and happy one. But yeah...TLOU2. They lost me. I actually regretted having pre-ordered it. When that "leak" scandal happened I told myself "No way....they know what sells as well and they just wouldn't DO that kind of thing to the characters in the story AND/OR the gamers." It's the only ND game that I haven't replayed and indeed I have NO DESIRE to replay it. It has nothing for me. They can call it 'subverting expectations,' but that's BS. It was a betrayal of the fans. The story was so ploddingly predictable as well once you got from the beginning because they clearly set the tone for what kind of a story it was going to be. Just horrendous. They could so EASILY have made the story GREAT, even while keeping a lot of the same story events. Tweaking events a little would have made a HUGE impact. But no...they had they had to go as woke as possible and intentionally try to destroy all the characters they did such a great job of developing in the first game. And they did it in such a ham-handed and clumsy way, I have to conclude that their success with the first game and story was a fluke. I think they even failed on the woke things they introduced. It was like they just had checkboxes. Like 'Oh lookie....we have a TRANS CHARACTER IN THE GAME NOW. LOOK AT US!' But they did it in such a trivialized manner that had absolutely zero weight or investment in the story to it. Frankly I think it was more insulting to that community than being the 'inclusive' thing they meant it to be. They could have made that interesting and integral to the story as well but it's like they didn't even try. Reminds me of how "the Last Jedi" seemed to intentionally take all the story arcs that were set up in "The Force Awakens" and just stomp them into oblivion. Or how the "Rise of Skywalker" casually removed the whole cause and reason for the Star Wars stories to begin with!

If you dont mind me asking, which events would you tweak to make them better? I am NOT a fan of the story Neil decided to tell, so Im genuinely curious. I do appreciate the ambition and quite frankly the audacity behind pulling a move like that. Very kojima esque in that sense so I respect him for it even if I disagree with it.

I also dont think subverting expectations = going woke. You said they intentionally destroyed all the characters they developed in the first game, but how exactly? Ellie was already suffering from severe PTSD towards the end of the game. It was clear that the encounters with David broke her. She was damaged goods already. Her PTSD is amplified when losing Joel. To me, it is consistent with her story arc. She went through a lot in the first game and you dont just get over shit like that. I completely understand her story arc in the game. I have ZERO issues with the choices she made. Same goes for Tommy. I would do the same for my brother. And remember, both Tommy and Joel did some crazy shit after Joel's daughter died. They are both fucked up. If there is anything woke in exploring PTSD and the lust for revenge I am not seeing it.

I do agree that the trans stuff was shoehorned in, but like you said it is so downplayed it really doesnt mean much in the grand scheme of things. They dont shove it down our throat. Its literally a throwaway comment during an ingame dialogue. They dont even give it a full mocapped cutscene. I just dont see how you can say it trivial and yet ham-handed at the same time. It cant be both.

I remember when MGS2 came out, I was more excited to play it than I was excited to watch the Matrix, Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter. It was probably the most defining moment of my life at that point, lol really it meant that much to me. And within two hours Kojima took away the protagonist I had come to care about. I was just numb after that point and pretty much checked out for the rest of the game. Did I feel betrayed? Hard to say. Just disappointed. Even a 15 year old me realized that this is Kojima's game. It's his story to tell, and he doesnt want us playing as Snake. 20 years later, i still dont agree with it but I do understand why he did what he did and I have now come to appreciate the gameplay improvements and many of the story beats I was too numb to appreciate back then. I would highly recommend you play through TLOU2 again on the PS5. You will be surprised to see just how good the combat is, and how well some of the scenes are written and directed. Game still looks gorgeous a year later.

But back to Naughty Dog. It wouldn't surprise me if they've become a victim of their own wokeness. I'm betting they've been presenting projects and stories but they are so whack-a-doodle so far that they're not getting approved. Maybe I'm wrong, but the fact remains that a highly prolific and talented studio has suddenly gone completely dark. Not even RUMORS of them working on something fantastic and 'just wait till you see it!' So something way wrong. I hope I'M wrong, but I don't think I am. These fools got too arrogant and too high on their previous success and thus turned against what MADE them successful. Until they fix that, they probably won't be as big as they were.

This I agree with. It was reported recently that Neil was still trying to figure out what they were going to work on next. TLOU2 devs had nothing to work on after shipping TLOU2 so they hijacked the VSG TLOU remake project and started fucking with the Days Gone team trying to reboot Uncharted. To me, they shouldve had a project lined up as soon as they shipped the last game. This is not their first rodeo and to be floating around ideas a year after shipping your game is just unacceptable. An expensive studio like Naughty Dog that probably cost $10-15 million a year should not be just sitting on their ass for a year.

 

[docbot]

I thought it was commen knowledge that they are working on a new IP, a space game... hence all the space comics in TLOU2. They are probably not wasting any resources. Since it's going to be their first PS5 game, they are likely coding a lot of new tech to make all our jaws drop collectively.

 

[xrnzaaas]

This is modern Naughty Dog, they can make a game with a trans carrot and it's going to get goty awards from many (woke) outlets.

 

[T0minator]

This is modern Naughty Dog, they can make a game with a trans carrot and it's going to get goty awards from many (woke) outlets.

Show me another game with more visceral combat than TLOU2 and better gameplay animations, visually better in-game cinematics and varied environments. If you can, I'll maybe consider thinking your comment might be valid

 

[Sinthor]

I love this response. This is pretty much everything that is wrong with the industry and why "Fans" ruin everything. Also, this post is just filled with contradictions.

It's a "Betrayal of the fans" like, are you being serious right now? The Last of us is not this longstanding franchise that has set expectations to live up to. It had only one single instalment and the developer is well within their right to introduce other main characters for the sequel. You complain about the story being too predictable (So was the first one) and yet you complain when the developer throws a huge curve ball and it didn't follow the exact same storyline from the first game. Gamers insisting they get to play as the same exact fucking characters every game is the reason we have 29 Resident Evil games with the same characters somehow getting into several zombie apocalypses over and over again.

You complain how the game is Oh so woke and then you complain that they didn't put more emphasis on it.Have you perhaps considered that the game isn't nearly as "woke" as right wing youtubers have led you to believe?. The Anti woke crowd is so incredibly cringe with their hatred for the game that they've become far more annoying than the pro woke crowd themselves.

The complaints about this game are complete and utter nonsense. "It's woke because a woman shouldn't be the strongest character in the game, that's just not realistic" like what? It's not any less realistic than Joel, a single person, being able to beat up entire groups of people on his own either. It reminds me of the dumb complaints about Nadine in Uncharted 4 from the anti woke crowd.

"A woman shouldn't be able to defeat Nate in hand to hand combat" Oh right, the leader of a private military group beating Nate in hand to hand combat is "Unrealistic" in a game in which a treasure hunter and his elderly friend literally kill and take out an entire highly trained private/military army. Ofcourse these people never bring up the fact that Nate defeats several people twice his size in hand to hand combat in UC3 either. Because then it's "just a game" right?

Reading comprehension is a great skill...might want to try it. In my opinion it was a betrayal of the fans because they character assassinated all the characters that people liked from the first game. I didn't contradict about curve balls either. Once they set the game theme up, they hammered on it incessantly. I have no problem with new characters. I didn't complain that it was woke but then they weren't work enough as you say. I said they tried to be woke. but they did it in such a lame way that it seems offensive to me and what I would think those types of characters should be. Yeah...Abby is unrealistic....but so is Nathan Drake free climbing and jumping up the sides of cliffs! It's a VIDEO GAME. I just didn't like how they hammered their theme in and I thought it was done very clumsily. I was saying I thought the "woke" pieces were clumsy and useless as well. It was just a terribly executed story line. Very much the "video game" and not like you'd see more in a good movie or even game with character development. That's it. Don't try to turn me into some crusader and put words in my mouth and thoughts in my head that aren't there, bruh.

I guess that's my final point. The game technically was about flawless, even though it was almost exactly the same as the original...no new gameplay elements to speak of. But the story SUCKED and was done so ham-handedly that I have to assume that the first game was just a fluke. Maybe without Amy Hennig, Neil just couldn't do it. I dunno. Well for me anyway, the game totally missed the mark to the point I regret having played it. Is it ok that I have a different opinion than you now...please? Because honestly, IDGAF. That's my opinion. Deal with it and if it makes you uncomfortable, do what you gotta do.

 

[Sinthor]

???

I see people here still have no clue what woke means... Shits hilarious, and annoying.. do your research...

What a cogent and logical argument you make! Wow! Nah.... just idiot GIFs. Why don't you tell me how well and with what parts of the story that Neil Druckman himself said would reflect his own 'woke' values were done then? Because I think this was a shitty job of story telling and that for supposedly being 'woke' it was lousy as well. Here's an example. They made a big deal of having a trans type character. But the character in question WAS NOT TRANS. Was simply a girl playing as a boy because she wanted to join the fight and didn't want to be forced to be married at like 12 or whatever she was. Is that a good representation for that community? Other than that, their anti-violence, anti-revenge message was just poorly done. So now, geniuses....why don't we have an actual DISCUSSION on what you think is wrong about that view point? Or should I just post some laughing GIF's in response?

 

[ripeavocado]

the studio has abysimal working conditions, the old guard has left and Druckmann is now in charge of everything.

New hires are often woke soldiers that doesn’t give a fuck about games except for virtue signalling

 

[SquillieDee]

What a cogent and logical argument you make! Wow! Nah.... just idiot GIFs. Why don't you tell me how well and with what parts of the story that Neil Druckman himself said would reflect his own 'woke' values were done then? Because I think this was a shitty job of story telling and that for supposedly being 'woke' it was lousy as well. Here's an example. They made a big deal of having a trans type character. But the character in question WAS NOT TRANS. Was simply a girl playing as a boy because she wanted to join the fight and didn't want to be forced to be married at like 12 or whatever she was. Is that a good representation for that community? Other than that, their anti-violence, anti-revenge message was just poorly done. So now, geniuses....why don't we have an actual DISCUSSION on what you think is wrong about that view point? Or should I just post some laughing GIF's in response?

Neil Druckman used it incorrectly also....

 

[SSfox]

Been playing a bit of TLOU2 lately, kinda shame there was no multiplayer as the gameplay of the game is really good and fun, if not the best part of the game or at least one of.

 

[IntentionalPun]

They are working on the Uncharted collection/remaster.. and will put out Factions probably next year. There are other 2 year gaps in Naughty Dog's releases as well...

And a pandemic happened, and they are based in a state that had heavy restrictions. Video games are one of the areas most effected by remote work.. their teams overall are so much bigger than a typical dev team, typically involve multiple companies even. It's really some of the most complicated software in the world, if not THE most complicated software, to create a high end video game where you have an in-house engine.

 

[DForce]

Neil Druckmann is too busy in Canada with hookers to get anything done. It's really unbelievable and unacceptable that factions has not been officially revealed when at one point tlou2 was supposed to launch with it

Unbelievable? This isn't some small multiplayer game they're making.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Also pretty sure they are re-pivoting on TLOU2 multiplayer to make it a big free-to-play game with MTX pajamas.

Quite possibly a day one PC release too.

You heard it here first!!!

@thepunholerumors

 

[DForce]

I didn't know you had to be emotionally strong to see angry lesbians being angry.

I mean, it's been over a year now and you're still in ND/TLOU threads complaining about the same stuff. There has to be a point where people have to move on. Some people are obviously going to be upset months after the game is released...... but a year later?

 

[Flutta]

Neil Cuckma'am can shove his future woke garbage up his buttocks. Like i said before until Woke Dog's get back to being Naughty Dog's they might get my interest back.
But until then.

 

[Sinthor]

If you dont mind me asking, which events would you tweak to make them better? I am NOT a fan of the story Neil decided to tell, so Im genuinely curious. I do appreciate the ambition and quite frankly the audacity behind pulling a move like that. Very kojima esque in that sense so I respect him for it even if I disagree with it.

I also dont think subverting expectations = going woke. You said they intentionally destroyed all the characters they developed in the first game, but how exactly? Ellie was already suffering from severe PTSD towards the end of the game. It was clear that the encounters with David broke her. She was damaged goods already. Her PTSD is amplified when losing Joel. To me, it is consistent with her story arc. She went through a lot in the first game and you dont just get over shit like that. I completely understand her story arc in the game. I have ZERO issues with the choices she made. Same goes for Tommy. I would do the same for my brother. And remember, both Tommy and Joel did some crazy shit after Joel's daughter died. They are both fucked up. If there is anything woke in exploring PTSD and the lust for revenge I am not seeing it.

I do agree that the trans stuff was shoehorned in, but like you said it is so downplayed it really doesnt mean much in the grand scheme of things. They dont shove it down our throat. Its literally a throwaway comment during an ingame dialogue. They dont even give it a full mocapped cutscene. I just dont see how you can say it trivial and yet ham-handed at the same time. It cant be both.

I remember when MGS2 came out, I was more excited to play it than I was excited to watch the Matrix, Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter. It was probably the most defining moment of my life at that point, lol really it meant that much to me. And within two hours Kojima took away the protagonist I had come to care about. I was just numb after that point and pretty much checked out for the rest of the game. Did I feel betrayed? Hard to say. Just disappointed. Even a 15 year old me realized that this is Kojima's game. It's his story to tell, and he doesnt want us playing as Snake. 20 years later, i still dont agree with it but I do understand why he did what he did and I have now come to appreciate the gameplay improvements and many of the story beats I was too numb to appreciate back then. I would highly recommend you play through TLOU2 again on the PS5. You will be surprised to see just how good the combat is, and how well some of the scenes are written and directed. Game still looks gorgeous a year later.


This I agree with. It was reported recently that Neil was still trying to figure out what they were going to work on next. TLOU2 devs had nothing to work on after shipping TLOU2 so they hijacked the VSG TLOU remake project and started fucking with the Days Gone team trying to reboot Uncharted. To me, they shouldve had a project lined up as soon as they shipped the last game. This is not their first rodeo and to be floating around ideas a year after shipping your game is just unacceptable. An expensive studio like Naughty Dog that probably cost $10-15 million a year should not be just sitting on their ass for a year.

No problem. I think people are getting hung up on say 'woke' or not and not actually listening after that. Possibly my fault for bad wording as well. So to avoid writing a novel here, here's my simple idea for making the story much more involving for the players and just "better" in my opinion.

AT THE BEGINNING- Joel and his brother come across these guys in the forest. Seeing a bunch of young, in shape, military type individuals, Joel and his brother are cautious...not complete dumb asses compared to how they were in the first game. This devolves into a battle in the forest and they are outnumbered and beaten. Joels brother is also killed or lives long enough to tell how they were set upon by this group to Ellie and then dies.

Ellie sets out for revenge and he story line follows Abby as well, till the two come across each other fighting a common enemy like the whistlers. The make common cause while. telling each other enough of their stories to help motivate cooperation but of course, tragically, not clue each other into exactly who they are. Due to this friendship, Ellie fights thru the Rattler compound to free Abby and her young ward only to then....finally come to realize that the killer she's been tracking all along was right with her the whole time. That section could end differently or it could end exactly as it did.


INSTEAD- The developers made Joel and Tommy complete dumb-asses but still there's impact because of the death of a beloved character or two...then force you to play as exactly who you don't want to....Abby. The whole message is Joel is a POS who got what he deserved and changing and trying to make up for your past is useless. Also revenge is bad. Well, unless you're a child when the bad things happen to you in which case, you're justified in killing everyone you need to. The game destroys the characters of Joel, Tommy (he is the reasonable one, remember? But not in THIS game...here he's a MONSTER obsessed with avenging a brother he wasn't even very close to) and Ellie and there's no redemptive message or anything. Ellie's journeys are completely fruitless and useless in the end and she loses everything. Because again, revenge is bad. Unless you're Abby. I agree they didn't force feed "wokeness" like some people like to claim but what they did of it was so clumsy it struck me as offensive or almost so. I mentioned 'Lily' earlier. She was touted as them being inclusive of the gender fluid community, but that's not even her story or character. Just... useless and they could have put more story around all of that as well. Instead they kind of just stuck her in there. Yes, Abby the bodybuilder is ridiculous as would a man bodybuilder be in that world but...it's a video game...I don't care. It served the purpose and actually made Abby much more believable as the one woman wrecking crew that she was. Completely different style than Ellie and AGAIN, a reason where pairing them for part of the story or having them really interact would have been very cool and they could have done a lot with that. But that's the super short version of how the story and game itself could have been better, in my opinion.

I actually liked the PTSD things and such...that was realistic for the story. Hell EVERYONE would be fucked up in that world which was a really one of the themes of the first game as well. I mean, except for Abby...she's fine except for nightmares about finding daddy dead. She doesn't have any moral issues with that or PTSD. No guild about killing Joel or anyone else. Anyway, that's the short version. I just feel the game failed overall in the story department. Badly. Badly enough, I really don't care to play it again and don't care about that whole world and storyline anymore.

 

[Sinthor]

Neil Druckman used it incorrectly also....

No argument from me there. I think what he DID correctly state is how he was shaping the story to his values and beliefs, which as an author...it totally his to do. I think personally that the 'wokeness' got referenced as people assumed he meant that and indeed he has spoken about that before. But I agree it was used incorrectly and I just feel the story was a terrible mess as to whatever he did. Call it 'woke' or call it 'snowflake' or anything else people like to throw around. Trying to make an anti-violence message in an ultra violent game is tricky as hell to do.... I just happen to feel for myself that he and ND totally failed in this effort. Aside from technically, I mean, because technically that game was probably the tightest I've ever seen. Although, that could largely be because it was almost exactly the same as TLOU aside from all those awesome accessibility options. That's all I'm trying to say. Hopefully that helps and hopefully I've properly stated what I mean a bit better.

 

[DForce]

No problem. I think people are getting hung up on say 'woke' or not and not actually listening after that. Possibly my fault for bad wording as well. So to avoid writing a novel here, here's my simple idea for making the story much more involving for the players and just "better" in my opinion.

AT THE BEGINNING- Joel and his brother come across these guys in the forest. Seeing a bunch of young, in shape, military type individuals, Joel and his brother are cautious...not complete dumb asses compared to how they were in the first game. This devolves into a battle in the forest and they are outnumbered and beaten. Joels brother is also killed or lives long enough to tell how they were set upon by this group to Ellie and then dies.

Joel and Tommy weren't clueless when they arrived at the house. Joel was asking questions as to why they were in Jackson, which means he was cautious about his surroundings. Tommy was simply acting friendly because acting suspicious wouldn't be the right thing to do. This is why Neil said during his interview that Joel was sizing people up as soon as he walked into the room.

But that's not really the point.

This story change would cause too many problems.

Let's Ellie wasn't there and they both died at the scene. How would Ellie identify everyone involved in Joel's death? How would they identify her? Ellie has PTSD for a reason and that's because she witnessed Joel's death. You'll have to throw this entire plot out of the window because she wouldn't actually experience PTSD after only "hearing" what happened to Joel and possibly Tommy. Abby and her friends also cannot be guilty of wrongdoing. They killed Joel because they wanted to bring justice to her father and Tommy was not guilty of being part of her father's death. It would make sense for Ellie to change her perspective knowing what Joel did, but not after killing Tommy.

Spoiler

But what about the end of the game where Abby almost killed Tommy? This happened after Mel and Owen died.

 

[MatrixReloaded101]

In Uncharted 4 - initially, the plan was for the ending to feature Nate's son. Someone suggested to Neil - what would happen if it were a daughter instead. So he was like - why not? So we got Nate's daughter. In TLOU1 we had one gay character. Then in Left behind we also had Ellie kiss a girl. In TLOU2 this storyline and the diverse representation was expanded. The next logical step would be in U5 for them to have Nate's daughter be an interracial bisexual or non-binary (simply being a lesbian wouldn't be enough because it was already done with Ellie. So for the sake of diversity, she would have to be either bisexual - which is kind of passé and old fashioned - or non-binary - which is the thing du jour.

Why we are mocking this:

LGBT Identification Rises to 5.6% in Latest U.S. Estimate

Gallup finds 5.6% of U.S. adults identifying as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender, with the majority of them saying they are bisexual.

news.gallup.com

A whopping 5.6% of US folks identify as non-heterosexual. And yet some of the new media (shows and games) make it out as if every third person is with alternative sexuality.

In my opinion the DLC and spin off games would have made more sense when they thought about adding more LGBT themes and characters.

Adding all of that to the sequel when it was barely present in the first game caught everyone off guard and than they killed off a main character in the series, it was just too much and the reasoning behind it didn't make any sense.

I still think TLOU 2 is a technical master piece and a amazing experience as a video game but the story clearly needed more work and thought put into it.

 

[SquillieDee]

No argument from me there. I think what he DID correctly state is how he was shaping the story to his values and beliefs, which as an author...it totally his to do. I think personally that the 'wokeness' got referenced as people assumed he meant that and indeed he has spoken about that before. But I agree it was used incorrectly and I just feel the story was a terrible mess as to whatever he did. Call it 'woke' or call it 'snowflake' or anything else people like to throw around. Trying to make an anti-violence message in an ultra violent game is tricky as hell to do.... I just happen to feel for myself that he and ND totally failed in this effort. Aside from technically, I mean, because technically that game was probably the tightest I've ever seen. Although, that could largely be because it was almost exactly the same as TLOU aside from all those awesome accessibility options. That's all I'm trying to say. Hopefully that helps and hopefully I've properly stated what I mean a bit better.

I can respect that, I would much rather people say SJW or snowflake than woke. The real meaning of woke was vey important, unfortunately people twisted its meaning to mean something completely different than what was intended. I understand what you were trying to say, all good man.

 

[SlimySnake]

No problem. I think people are getting hung up on say 'woke' or not and not actually listening after that. Possibly my fault for bad wording as well. So to avoid writing a novel here, here's my simple idea for making the story much more involving for the players and just "better" in my opinion.

AT THE BEGINNING- Joel and his brother come across these guys in the forest. Seeing a bunch of young, in shape, military type individuals, Joel and his brother are cautious...not complete dumb asses compared to how they were in the first game. This devolves into a battle in the forest and they are outnumbered and beaten. Joels brother is also killed or lives long enough to tell how they were set upon by this group to Ellie and then dies.

Ellie sets out for revenge and he story line follows Abby as well, till the two come across each other fighting a common enemy like the whistlers. The make common cause while. telling each other enough of their stories to help motivate cooperation but of course, tragically, not clue each other into exactly who they are. Due to this friendship, Ellie fights thru the Rattler compound to free Abby and her young ward only to then....finally come to realize that the killer she's been tracking all along was right with her the whole time. That section could end differently or it could end exactly as it did.


INSTEAD- The developers made Joel and Tommy complete dumb-asses but still there's impact because of the death of a beloved character or two...then force you to play as exactly who you don't want to....Abby. The whole message is Joel is a POS who got what he deserved and changing and trying to make up for your past is useless. Also revenge is bad. Well, unless you're a child when the bad things happen to you in which case, you're justified in killing everyone you need to. The game destroys the characters of Joel, Tommy (he is the reasonable one, remember? But not in THIS game...here he's a MONSTER obsessed with avenging a brother he wasn't even very close to) and Ellie and there's no redemptive message or anything. Ellie's journeys are completely fruitless and useless in the end and she loses everything. Because again, revenge is bad. Unless you're Abby. I agree they didn't force feed "wokeness" like some people like to claim but what they did of it was so clumsy it struck me as offensive or almost so. I mentioned 'Lily' earlier. She was touted as them being inclusive of the gender fluid community, but that's not even her story or character. Just... useless and they could have put more story around all of that as well. Instead they kind of just stuck her in there. Yes, Abby the bodybuilder is ridiculous as would a man bodybuilder be in that world but...it's a video game...I don't care. It served the purpose and actually made Abby much more believable as the one woman wrecking crew that she was. Completely different style than Ellie and AGAIN, a reason where pairing them for part of the story or having them really interact would have been very cool and they could have done a lot with that. But that's the super short version of how the story and game itself could have been better, in my opinion.

I actually liked the PTSD things and such...that was realistic for the story. Hell EVERYONE would be fucked up in that world which was a really one of the themes of the first game as well. I mean, except for Abby...she's fine except for nightmares about finding daddy dead. She doesn't have any moral issues with that or PTSD. No guild about killing Joel or anyone else. Anyway, that's the short version. I just feel the game failed overall in the story department. Badly. Badly enough, I really don't care to play it again and don't care about that whole world and storyline anymore.

That’s actually not half bad. It puts the two protagonists together instead of keeping them separated for the entirety of the game. I really disliked the Abby chapters for this reason. There is absolutely no overlap between the two stories and they both suffer from it. People tuned in to see the drama between Abby and Ellie, but just when things were getting good, Neil hit the reset button.

I dont think Joel made an out of character mistake tbh. It was either trust Abby or die. He made a split second choice. You could even argue that he had gone soft in the five years since the first game. Domestic life well, has a tendency to domesticate you. I dont have many issues with that, and having Ellie be there is probably the right choice for her character arc.

I think Lilly, her sister whatsherface, Mel, Owen, and her entire crew was as unlikeable as you can get. I have no idea why Neil would give them so much screen time. I like that Abby isnt likeable because that means Neil didnt try to rely on her personality, looks and charm for the player to forgive her, but man at least give her some redeeming qualities lol

The whole message is Joel is a POS who got what he deserved and changing and trying to make up for your past is useless. Also revenge is bad. Well, unless you're a child when the bad things happen to you in which case, you're justified in killing everyone you need to

It took me a while to get this, but eventually I realized that Neil wasnt just trying to say revenge is bad or forgiveness. He's trying to do something far more ambitious. I brought up MGS2 because this game is far more meta than people realize. The story isnt just about Ellie coming to grips with her PTSD and learning to forgive, but also the player. This was later confirmed by Neil in one of the interviews. He mentioned how growing up in West Bank, Palestine, he saw two soldiers hanging and dismembered and he was so angry, he wanted to kill everyone he deemed responsible. He didnt just want Ellie to forgive Abby, he wanted you to do the same. Obviously, looking at the reception we can say he did not succeed, but I think that was never the point. Not everyone is the same. Some people dont get over shit like that and clearly they did not even after a year. Personally, I was done around the time Ellie was back at the ranch and Tommy shows up with a new lead on Abby. I had mentally checked out and had zero desire to continue. I just ran through the Santa Barbara chapters just to see the ending because at that point, I did not want to kill Abby. The woman had suffered enough, and it was time for move on. It took Ellie a little more time, but that's the point, everyone comes to term with their PTSD at a different time.

Like Kojima, Neil tried to do far more than just tell the story. You brought up player being more involved, id say your story would have the player more engaged, but not more involved. It was Neil's intention to make this more than just a passive story we get in other mediums. Perhaps he shouldve gone with a choice based story to keep the player involved, but I think he wanted us to feel what he felt when he saw those Israeli soldiers brutalized and then learn how to forgive Abby at our own pace. I wouldve taken a more traditional story but video games have always had the ability to do more than just passive storytelling. Snake refusing to shoot Grey Fox and The Boss were incredible moments that simply cannot be replicated in movies or tv shows. Neil has shown time and time again that he can write a good coherent story. U2, TLOU, U4 are all written by him. So its not like he's a bad writer. He just tried to do too much here.

And while I dont agree with his choices, I can respect him trying to do more than the average storyteller.

 

[Sinthor]

Joel and Tommy weren't clueless when they arrived at the house. Joel was asking questions as to why they were in Jackson, which means he was cautious about his surroundings. Tommy was simply acting friendly because acting suspicious wouldn't be the right thing to do. This is why Neil said during his interview that Joel was sizing people up as soon as he walked into the room.

But that's not really the point.

This story change would cause too many problems.

Let's Ellie wasn't there and they both died at the scene. How would Ellie identify everyone involved in Joel's death? How would they identify her? Ellie has PTSD for a reason and that's because she witnessed Joel's death. You'll have to throw this entire plot out of the window because she wouldn't actually experience PTSD after only "hearing" what happened to Joel and possibly Tommy. Abby and her friends also cannot be guilty of wrongdoing. They killed Joel because they wanted to bring justice to her father and Tommy was not guilty of being part of her father's death. It would make sense for Ellie to change her perspective knowing what Joel did, but not after killing Tommy.

Spoiler

But what about the end of the game where Abby almost killed Tommy? This happened after Mel and Owen died.

Well, like I was saying, having Tommy telling what happened before HE dies in the beginning would be enough to set Ellie on her way. She would have PTSD like she did after the FIRST game and that would only grow as she killed more and more in her quest to hunt down Joel's killer...wouldn't require anything additional.

 

[Sinthor]

That’s actually not half bad. It puts the two protagonists together instead of keeping them separated for the entirety of the game. I really disliked the Abby chapters for this reason. There is absolutely no overlap between the two stories and they both suffer from it. People tuned in to see the drama between Abby and Ellie, but just when things were getting good, Neil hit the reset button.

I dont think Joel made an out of character mistake tbh. It was either trust Abby or die. He made a split second choice. You could even argue that he had gone soft in the five years since the first game. Domestic life well, has a tendency to domesticate you. I dont have many issues with that, and having Ellie be there is probably the right choice for her character arc.

I think Lilly, her sister whatsherface, Mel, Owen, and her entire crew was as unlikeable as you can get. I have no idea why Neil would give them so much screen time. I like that Abby isnt likeable because that means Neil didnt try to rely on her personality, looks and charm for the player to forgive her, but man at least give her some redeeming qualities lol

It took me a while to get this, but eventually I realized that Neil wasnt just trying to say revenge is bad or forgiveness. He's trying to do something far more ambitious. I brought up MGS2 because this game is far more meta than people realize. The story isnt just about Ellie coming to grips with her PTSD and learning to forgive, but also the player. This was later confirmed by Neil in one of the interviews. He mentioned how growing up in West Bank, Palestine, he saw two soldiers hanging and dismembered and he was so angry, he wanted to kill everyone he deemed responsible. He didnt just want Ellie to forgive Abby, he wanted you to do the same. Obviously, looking at the reception we can say he did not succeed, but I think that was never the point. Not everyone is the same. Some people dont get over shit like that and clearly they did not even after a year. Personally, I was done around the time Ellie was back at the ranch and Tommy shows up with a new lead on Abby. I had mentally checked out and had zero desire to continue. I just ran through the Santa Barbara chapters just to see the ending because at that point, I did not want to kill Abby. The woman had suffered enough, and it was time for move on. It took Ellie a little more time, but that's the point, everyone comes to term with their PTSD at a different time.

Like Kojima, Neil tried to do far more than just tell the story. You brought up player being more involved, id say your story would have the player more engaged, but not more involved. It was Neil's intention to make this more than just a passive story we get in other mediums. Perhaps he shouldve gone with a choice based story to keep the player involved, but I think he wanted us to feel what he felt when he saw those Israeli soldiers brutalized and then learn how to forgive Abby at our own pace. I wouldve taken a more traditional story but video games have always had the ability to do more than just passive storytelling. Snake refusing to shoot Grey Fox and The Boss were incredible moments that simply cannot be replicated in movies or tv shows. Neil has shown time and time again that he can write a good coherent story. U2, TLOU, U4 are all written by him. So its not like he's a bad writer. He just tried to do too much here.

And while I dont agree with his choices, I can respect him trying to do more than the average storyteller.

Yep, that's fair and some good points too. I just really didn't like the story and to me it seemed like how I feel the recent Star Wars movies undid all of the previous storyline, etc. Ok, Star Wars did WAY worse than TLOU2 did. . Again, just in my opinion. I can respect how Neil was trying to relate things like his West Bank experience and again, he's the author...he can do what he wants. I just don't think the story ended up good and it didn't seem proper for a sequel to the original game. But I guess in one way I can say it was...that's a shitty world and the second game kept up and expanded on that theme. And again, I have to say...I don't recall many if any games I've ever played that were as on point technically. Believe me, like you, I'd checked out less than halfway thru the game and I was irritated. I LOOKED for things like clipping, etc. and I couldn't find anything worth commenting on. They really did a great technical job on the game. You can argue that this was because it IS the first game, just with different story and graphics but I don't think that would be fair. It may not have advanced the gameplay mechanics much but it WAS very well executed coding!

 

[Azurro]

I mean, it's been over a year now and you're still in ND/TLOU threads complaining about the same stuff. There has to be a point where people have to move on. Some people are obviously going to be upset months after the game is released...... but a year later?

You are still clutching your pearls a year later and rushing to the defense of the game and insulting whoever doesn't like the wokeathon. So, what is your point?

 

[Kokoloko85]

Not sure. Hopefully factions and something new. Or if they are working TLOU1 remake fingers crossed they are working on a new IP too.

Most likely working on another GOTY or GOTG game contender and the haters are gonna say it has pacing issues and is a walking simulator but cant name a better 3rd person adventure game……

 

[Ozzie666]

I enjoyed the game, but I can't help but think the original story and locations was much different. They re-used recycled second half of the game, saved a lot of resources. I'm not sure if that was always the plan or not. It makes me think they made changes to meet deadlines and save costs and resources. Which tells me the studio may have been too ambitions for this project, which worries me going forward.

They need to get back to basics, they missed the boat on the multiplayer addon for this game, move on and make something new. Uncharted Lost Legacy was a great focused experience.

Also for the las time, just remake Golden Abyss and flesh it out for console.

 

[DForce]

Well, like I was saying, having Tommy telling what happened before HE dies in the beginning would be enough to set Ellie on her way. She would have PTSD like she did after the FIRST game and that would only grow as she killed more and more in her quest to hunt down Joel's killer...wouldn't require anything additional.

PTSD happens after someone has witnessed a traumatic event. Abby has it after she finds her father's dead body on the ground, Ellie has it after witnessing Joel's death and Joel likely had it in the first game. The objective is to make the other group appear innocent and justified in their actions. Killing Tommy would destroy that.

Ellie sets out for revenge and he story line follows Abby as well, till the two come across each other fighting a common enemy like the whistlers. The make common cause while. telling each other enough of their stories to help motivate cooperation but of course, tragically, not clue each other into exactly who they are. Due to this friendship, Ellie fights thru the Rattler compound to free Abby and her young ward only to then....finally come to realize that the killer she's been tracking all along was right with her the whole time. That section could end differently or it could end exactly as it did.

This wouldn't work either. I mean, you can write a story like this, but you would have to convince the audience that Ellie is totally unaware that Abby is part of the WLF group or that she would never ask Abby a question about the WLF and Abby wouldn't tell them.

 

[DForce]

You are still clutching your pearls a year later and rushing to the defense of the game and insulting whoever doesn't like the wokeathon. So, what is your point?

People who like the game will come into threads to discuss it. I will share my thoughts with people who try to come into threads and post information. That's why I always post sales data That's entirely different than someone whose intent is to derail the conversation. There in no way comparable. But you're going to continue to complain so I'm not even going to continue this.

 

[Rykan]

Reading comprehension is a great skill...might want to try it. In my opinion it was a betrayal of the fans because they character assassinated all the characters that people liked from the first game. I didn't contradict about curve balls either. Once they set the game theme up, they hammered on it incessantly. I have no problem with new characters. I didn't complain that it was woke but then they weren't work enough as you say. I said they tried to be woke. but they did it in such a lame way that it seems offensive to me and what I would think those types of characters should be. Yeah...Abby is unrealistic....but so is Nathan Drake free climbing and jumping up the sides of cliffs! It's a VIDEO GAME. I just didn't like how they hammered their theme in and I thought it was done very clumsily. I was saying I thought the "woke" pieces were clumsy and useless as well. It was just a terribly executed story line. Very much the "video game" and not like you'd see more in a good movie or even game with character development. That's it. Don't try to turn me into some crusader and put words in my mouth and thoughts in my head that aren't there, bruh.

I guess that's my final point. The game technically was about flawless, even though it was almost exactly the same as the original...no new gameplay elements to speak of. But the story SUCKED and was done so ham-handedly that I have to assume that the first game was just a fluke. Maybe without Amy Hennig, Neil just couldn't do it. I dunno. Well for me anyway, the game totally missed the mark to the point I regret having played it. Is it ok that I have a different opinion than you now...please? Because honestly, IDGAF. That's my opinion. Deal with it and if it makes you uncomfortable, do what you gotta do.

Is this the old classic trick where you attack someones reading comprehension so that you can pretend you didn't actually say the things you clearly did? Because it is not working here. They didn't "Character assassinate" anyone in this game. What you're referring to is character development in a moral grey setting. The characters have grown and some of them have grown more cynical & narcistic due to the setting and situation they were in. It's completely normal character progression that you even see done in other apocalypse or end of the world themed media as well. Characters change as the situation they are in change.

Oh so you didn't say it "was woke" you just said they "tried to be woke". Again, you're just playing with terminology and hope that someone doesn't call you out on your nonsense. Your entire post is an "anti woke" rant to the point where you even think the studio will go under over its "wokeness" which is so incredibly absurd that its downright hilarious. Whats even more baffling is that the criticism that you tried to double down on has literally nothing to do with it being woke or not.

There is nothing "clumsy" about the way they handled the part where they included the transgender character. It was done in a subtle way because it was never the main focus of the game OR even the character. It's a part of the character, not the defining characteristic of the character itself. The funny thing is that, considering your woke rant, I can GUARANTEE that you would be up in arms about "Wokeness" if they put any more focus on it than they did,

I prefered the story and setting of the first game as well, but I have a distaste for "Anti woke" bullshit that is trying to disguise itself as legitimate criticism.

 

[Sinthor]

TLOU2 haters have run this forum into the ground

I wouldn't be so dramatic about it. It's obvious that even well after its release, TLOU2 brings up strong feelings, both for and against. That is what the developers said they wanted...they said they wanted a game that you didn't 'enjoy' playing, they wanted to send a message. Its obvious that they succeeded. Think of it this way....if it's still being talked about, it most certainly comes to the attention of more people who never played it and then are likely to. So that may be generating extra $$ for Naughty Dog and make it more of a commercial success for them!

Or...just non-descriptively complain about people who don't share your glowing opinion of the game. Up to you!

 

[Sinthor]

Is this the old classic trick where you attack someones reading comprehension so that you can pretend you didn't actually say the things you clearly did? Because it is not working here. They didn't "Character assassinate" anyone in this game. What you're referring to is character development in a moral grey setting. The characters have grown and some of them have grown more cynical & narcistic due to the setting and situation they were in. It's completely normal character progression that you even see done in other apocalypse or end of the world themed media as well. Characters change as the situation they are in change.

Oh so you didn't say it "was woke" you just said they "tried to be woke". Again, you're just playing with terminology and hope that someone doesn't call you out on your nonsense. Your entire post is an "anti woke" rant to the point where you even think the studio will go under over its "wokeness" which is so incredibly absurd that its downright hilarious. Whats even more baffling is that the criticism that you tried to double down on has literally nothing to do with it being woke or not.

There is nothing "clumsy" about the way they handled the part where they included the transgender character. It was done in a subtle way because it was never the main focus of the game OR even the character. It's a part of the character, not the defining characteristic of the character itself. The funny thing is that, considering your woke rant, I can GUARANTEE that you would be up in arms about "Wokeness" if they put any more focus on it than they did,

I prefered the story and setting of the first game as well, but I have a distaste for "Anti woke" bullshit that is trying to disguise itself as legitimate criticism.

Well, I've clarified what I meant but you clearly don't understand the subject matter. You even referring to that character as "trans" shows you don't know what that means. If you don't think that was clumsy, then good for you and your opinion. I have mine. When you take a character and destroy that character, in my opinion that's character assassination. OBVIOUSLY I didn't mean it in some political sense! Totally changed Tommy's character to. I've said they can do what they want...I just don't like it and I don't HAVE to like it.

Again, I've clearly explained my issues with the game and story. If you can't handle someone with an opinion that differs, that's you're problem, bruh. I'll have intelligent conversation with anyone who wants it but otherwise...yeah....

 

[Sinthor]

PTSD happens after someone has witnessed a traumatic event. Abby has it after she finds her father's dead body on the ground, Ellie has it after witnessing Joel's death and Joel likely had it in the first game. The objective is to make the other group appear innocent and justified in their actions. Killing Tommy would destroy that.



This wouldn't work either. I mean, you can write a story like this, but you would have to convince the audience that Ellie is totally unaware that Abby is part of the WLF group or that she would never ask Abby a question about the WLF and Abby wouldn't tell them.

Yeah, I get what you're saying but Ellie had it in the first game as well. Bottom line, PTSD isn't something you 'catch' of course, it's something that can develop and can change. I get what you're saying about Tommy being left alive and that makes sense...but the rest of the game drives home the fact that the WLF ARE NOT any better. They are hunting down and killing the whistlers group with impunity...so really wouldn't have an impact on their identity if they'd killed Tommy and you could take the story the way I suggested with that.

Why would I have to convince the audience about the WLF? That wasn't blatantly obvious in those scenes and even if it were, you could edit that. That's the magic of authoring a story, you can do what you want. If Ellie was told it was this group of military styled people and the hadn't had "WLF" signs in their hands, Tommy wouldn't have a clue who they were or about that name. So it could definitely work. Could even set it up so that Ellie learns things about the whistlers FIRST while she's tooling around so that when she meets Abby and the WLF, she assumes they have a common enemy. That's how I would have done it anyway. I actually have real world experience in authoring stories and that's one of the great things about creative control, you can research how to set things up and sell them to your 'audience' whether that's digital, print or whatever.

Bottom line, I'm just saying what I think would have made it better. In the end, I just didn't like it at all. That's ok. They still got their money from me! Dammit! . It just disappointed me and honestly it disappointed me in some of the same ways that the new Star Wars movies did, so that probably didn't help my response to the game. Cool that lots of people liked it though, and it WAS extremely impressive from the technical perspective.

 

[remember_spinal]

TLOU2 threads always turn into stealth therapy sessions

 

[DForce]

Yeah, I get what you're saying but Ellie had it in the first game as well. Bottom line, PTSD isn't something you 'catch' of course, it's something that can develop and can change. I get what you're saying about Tommy being left alive and that makes sense...but the rest of the game drives home the fact that the WLF ARE NOT any better. They are hunting down and killing the whistlers group with impunity...so really wouldn't have an impact on their identity if they'd killed Tommy and you could take the story the way I suggested with that.

Ellie may have dealt with PTSD in the first game after watching people die.

Abby and her friends aren't portrayed as bad people. They drove home the point that they were only good people who wanted to bring justice by finding Jerry's killer. Their only reason for killing the Scars is because the truce was broken and they were now at war.

Why would I have to convince the audience about the WLF? That wasn't blatantly obvious in those scenes and even if it were, you could edit that. That's the magic of authoring a story, you can do what you want. If Ellie was told it was this group of military styled people and the hadn't had "WLF" signs in their hands, Tommy wouldn't have a clue who they were or about that name. So it could definitely work. Could even set it up so that Ellie learns things about the whistlers FIRST while she's tooling around so that when she meets Abby and the WLF, she assumes they have a common enemy.

Seattle is covered with WLF and so are their dead bodies. If Ellie teams up with Abby, then you would have to make the audience believe that Ellie didn't know Abby wasn't part of the WLF and Abby wouldn't mention it during her conversations with Ellie. That would be totally unlikely unless Abby was going AWOL and she wanted to hide the fact that she's part of the WLF. Tommy description was also specific. They were the WLF with patches on their jacket. When Ellie arrived in Seattle, the WLF propaganda was scattered around the city. The Scars are also very unique in their appearance. They wear the same clothing and all have Scars on their face. Ellie would also know instantly they're not the people she's looking for and that they're not the people she's looking for.

I'm not saying your idea is bad, but there would have to be a lot of changes to make to the original TLOU 2 story. I think your idea could work as far as the construction of the story if Abby was AWOL from the WLF, giving a reason to lie about her past. The face of Abby should also be hidden. You don't want the audience to say, "How do you not know this is the woman who killed Joel?" Imagine if you went with your story and recreate that scene where Isaac finds Abby protecting Lev. You can change that where Ellie and Abby are running away. It's revealed that Abby is part of the WLF and Ellie is shocked that Abby lied to her. Isaac also tells Ellie that this is the woman who killed Joel. Somehow they make it out of there alive and they're in the warehouse (the one where Abby tells Lev, "you're my people") arguing... Ellie wants to kill her but they have to set their differences aside to escape the WLF.

There would have to make a lot of changes before and after this point. I just don't think you can simply make those two adjustments without changing many parts of the story.

 

[Rykan]

Well, I've clarified what I meant but you clearly don't understand the subject matter. You even referring to that character as "trans" shows you don't know what that means. If you don't think that was clumsy, then good for you and your opinion. I have mine. When you take a character and destroy that character, in my opinion that's character assassination. OBVIOUSLY I didn't mean it in some political sense! Totally changed Tommy's character to. I've said they can do what they want...I just don't like it and I don't HAVE to like it.

Again, I've clearly explained my issues with the game and story. If you can't handle someone with an opinion that differs, that's you're problem, bruh. I'll have intelligent conversation with anyone who wants it but otherwise...yeah....

This has to be parody. You have made an entire post containing several paragraphs complaining about "wokeness" and how the studio will go "down in its wokeness" and then you follow it up by saying "well actually I meant is this and that" which has nothing to do with wokeness at all. You have yet to point out any concrete example on how this game is "oh so woke".

I do know what the term transgender means, it's clear that you don't because lev is most definitely a transgender character. Your claim that he only changed gender because he was forced to get married but that is not true at all, have you even finished this game?

 

[Sinthor]

Ellie may have dealt with PTSD in the first game after watching people die.

Abby and her friends aren't portrayed as bad people. They drove home the point that they were only good people who wanted to bring justice by finding Jerry's killer. Their only reason for killing the Scars is because the truce was broken and they were now at war.




Seattle is covered with WLF and so are their dead bodies. If Ellie teams up with Abby, then you would have to make the audience believe that Ellie didn't know Abby wasn't part of the WLF and Abby wouldn't mention it during her conversations with Ellie. That would be totally unlikely unless Abby was going AWOL and she wanted to hide the fact that she's part of the WLF. Tommy description was also specific. They were the WLF with patches on their jacket. When Ellie arrived in Seattle, the WLF propaganda was scattered around the city. The Scars are also very unique in their appearance. They wear the same clothing and all have Scars on their face. Ellie would also know instantly they're not the people she's looking for and that they're not the people she's looking for.

I'm not saying your idea is bad, but there would have to be a lot of changes to make to the original TLOU 2 story. I think your idea could work as far as the construction of the story if Abby was AWOL from the WLF, giving a reason to lie about her past. The face of Abby should also be hidden. You don't want the audience to say, "How do you not know this is the woman who killed Joel?" Imagine if you went with your story and recreate that scene where Isaac finds Abby protecting Lev. You can change that where Ellie and Abby are running away. It's revealed that Abby is part of the WLF and Ellie is shocked that Abby lied to her. Isaac also tells Ellie that this is the woman who killed Joel. Somehow they make it out of there alive and they're in the warehouse (the one where Abby tells Lev, "you're my people") arguing... Ellie wants to kill her but they have to set their differences aside to escape the WLF.

There would have to make a lot of changes before and after this point. I just don't think you can simply make those two adjustments without changing many parts of the story.

Yeah, that's what I mean. Obviously I was way over simplifying...just giving the broad outline of how I think it could have been better. But yeah..a lot of changes would be needed.

 

[Sinthor]

This has to be parody. You have made an entire post containing several paragraphs complaining about "wokeness" and how the studio will go "down in its wokeness" and then you follow it up by saying "well actually I meant is this and that" which has nothing to do with wokeness at all. You have yet to point out any concrete example on how this game is "oh so woke".

I do know what the term transgender means, it's clear that you don't because lev is most definitely a transgender character. Your claim that he only changed gender because he was forced to get married but that is not true at all, have you even finished this game?

I can't help you, bruh.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

My favorite studio from the PS3 era that I now don’t care for at all

went from perfect pacing to overly bloated, edgy narrative snoozefests that aren’t nearly as high brow as druckmann wants to pretend they are

cannot manage to repeat play anything from ND after UC2

their gameplay and surrounding systems have also hardly advanced at all. Pretty games with good production values that feel pretty shallow

 

[Majormaxxx]

My favorite studio from the PS3 era that I now don’t care for at all

went from perfect pacing to overly bloated, edgy narrative snoozefests that aren’t nearly as high brow as druckmann wants to pretend they are

cannot manage to repeat play anything from ND after UC2

their gameplay and surrounding systems have also hardly advanced at all. Pretty games with good production values that feel pretty shallow

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Hypereides]

excuse me? TLOU had one of the best and most unique MP experiences ever.

Get your head out of our ass.

That MP is legitimately underrated. How it flew over the heads of gaming journos to the point where it got labeled as "tacked-on" blows my mind.

Wow, Punisher?

Not only toxic masculinity overload but isn't Punisher basically like a stereotypical conservative wet dream?
That's the impression I got from the show at least like a Death Wish movie.

You really think someone like Druckmann would preserve the character and lore without shaking it up? I'm willing to bet you'd be introduced to a way different... interpretation than you imagine.

 

[Tschumi]

Slimy one of these days you're gonna shoot ur mouth off just a bit and get in trouble

They probably want to ditch the noise about the progressive elements in tlou2 that became a proxy battleground in the runup to the 2020 elections and just restart on their own terms when they want to.

 

[Majormaxxx]

That MP is legitimately underrated. How it flew over the heads of gaming journos to the point where it got labeled as "tacked-on" blows my mind.



You really think someone like Druckmann would preserve the character and lore without shaking it up? I'm willing to bet you'd be introduced to a way different... interpretation than you imagine.

Legit awesome MP! Just make sure to buy a nice weapon that suits your style.

As for the punisher - I fear he would be deconstructed and post-modernized and made to regret his vigilantism... ultimately he will realize revenge is pointless as it perpetuates the circle of violence and so he would start to love the ones who murdered his family...

 

[RoyalLaFlame]

Oh please, it's not about "you feel threatened because toxic masculinity", the character of Abby offends me because of the stupidity of it, since I actually work out. I have seen very strong men and women in the gym and I'm sorry, but the very premise of Abby is simply not possible. The reality is that if both a man and a woman work out, especially strength training, then that woman will never be as strong as that man, simple biology. Then you look at her and think, ok so she must be eating 5 meals a day and doing steroids, because a woman doesn't get to her size without help. That would be a liiiiiitle in short supply in a zombie apocalypse. Yet, she is there, pushing that idea down our throats because hey, who cares about realism in a realistic game?

Therefore, every time I see the character, I can only ever see the motivation behind it. I can see the director going "look at this character! I'm soooooo progressive! Take this patriarchy!!" while stroking it to his own progressive genious. It's not, it's childish and another idea being pushed by the woke cult.

Man, I don't understand how Abby is a stupid character, I simply can't. How many men in the game look like they work out? Yeah, exactly. Clearly Abby is stronger than them, what the fuck is wrong with it? Abby clearly dedicated herself to the gym, work out to cope with the loss of her father, so that later she can seek her revenge. How many people go to the gym to cope with something or to improve themselves? By the way, wasn't Abby's father a doctor? Aren't steroids usually available at the hospital? Do you think that in a zombie apocalypse people would go out of their way to go grab some steroids instead of actual medicine for themselves? See, it's another possible explanation.

God forbid a woman being strong. But you don't like it, I respect that.