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[SlicedBread3]

97% of games are just controlling avatars in interesting worlds, right? The best ones attempt to lay out compelling rewards + dangers in those worlds.

If that's the case, why is there such a wide divide amongst gamers who strongly prefer single player over multiplayer, and vice versa?

Because despite the fact that they look similar ("just controlling an avatar in a world") and we continue to lazily label them all as "games". They vary a lot in what need they are trying to fulfill.

For example if you put TLOU2, Animal Crossing and Call of Duty next to each other. While they may seem like similar products, what you're actually looking at are digital versions of the film, toy and sport industry respectively. And as you would expect there isn't a total overlap (if much at all) between their audiences. If it wasn't for the fact that the tools and skills needed to develop them were largely transferrable, they'd probably be considered entirely different industries.

And while yes it is possible to incorporate multiplayer elements into all of them if you want to. It's inherently more essential to a "sport" like experience than a "film" like one.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

None of this means anything to me because MP experiences as they currently stand are considerably inferior to single player experiences.



Superficially, and with a very generous lack of perception, the images are similar. But this doesn't negate the fact that the two games are nothing alike.

We've made progress.

I'm not interested in looking at the past and making a qualitative judgment on what's better, multiplayer or single player. I agree with the majority of multiplayer criticisms in this thread.

I'm focusing strictly on the future and seeing that multiplayer designers have an influx of tools at their disposal to attempt to pull in gamers who like to experiment, go at their own pace, see an unfolding narrative etc... Things multiplayer has traditionally never done.

Also, the two pictures represent players observing a 3D world with a variety of choices to make and the ability to accomplish them in any order they want. As if all five characters are thinking "What should I do now?"

Old style multiplayer was never able to do that due to technical and market limitations. IE, the levee has broken.

 

[FeldMonster]

Terrible poll.

I hate single player games. Much less/worse replayability. Should have an option for those of us who prefer multiplayer games.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

And while yes it is possible to incorporate multiplayer elements into all of them if you want to. It's inherently more essential to a "sport" like experience than a "film" like one.

I don't agree with this statement.

Multiplayer is no longer a sport. It was, for sure.

But the industry has found gold in open world, long arc multiplayer, which is less a sport and more a story.

League of Legends is hockey, basketball, football.
Rust is 28 Days Later, Lord of the Rings, Jurassic Park.

We're in a new era.

 

[Danjin44]

We've made progress.

Really? because the way I see it current MP games are getting worse with loot boxes and monetization and most of them get released with such a broken mess state.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Me either, but games are technically flawed, be it multiplayer or single player. Can't do anything about that other than hope developers get better and better over time.

To be fair they got a fine line to balance with AI.

Every action game has you killing 100s (even 1,000s) of enemies to beat a game. It wouldnt make sense to make the AI so tough the average gamer cant even get past the first room. Realistically, a person in reality wouldnt get past being bum rushed by 5 people either. But in gaming, you got to let the gamer have fun Ramboing his way to the final boss.

But there's got to be a middle ground watching that Hitman video. That's NES quality AI there.

 

[Neff]

As if all five characters are thinking "What should I do now?"

I'll indulge your lazy comparison because it's a good opportunity to show you the difference staring you in the face.

All five characters aren't thinking 'What should I do now?', they're thinking 'What should we do now?', because they're a team. When playing as part of a team-based MP game, you have an obligation to other players. True, you have the freedom to help, sabotage, quit, or do whatever you like with your time, but there's no getting away from the fact that multiplayer games are inherently designed around a shared experience, and that will never change.

Single player games don't need to be shared. You have no obligation to human beings. You're not relying on human beings to prop up the experience. You're in your own little world and that's the way I prefer it.

Really? because they way I see it current MP games are getting worse with loot boxes and monetization

This too. The art of designing truly great, balanced, durable MP games has waned. There's too much emphasis on free-to-play trickery and cynical exploitation.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

To be fair they got a fine line to balance with AI.

Every action game has you killing 100s (even 1,000s) of enemies to beat a game. It wouldnt make sense to make the AI so tough the average gamer cant even get past the first room. Realistically, a person in reality wouldnt get past being bum rushed by 5 people either. But in gaming, you got to let the gamer have fun Ramboing his way to the final boss.

But there's got to be a middle ground watching that Hitman video. That's NES quality AI there.

There's a middle ground you may be missing.

What happens if games realize there's more to dealing with opponents (AI + human) other than simply killing them.

Uncharted is basically John Wick (clothed in Indiana Jones). Kill, move forward, kill, move forward...rinse and repeat for 20 hrs.

The middle ground is...instead of making John Wick style games, what does a The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly type game look like?

What if our memorable moments are killing, negotiation, grifting, blowing bridges, pursuing gold etc...

To me, it seems obvious that multiplayer is better suited to tackle this simply because AI is so brain dead today.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I'll indulge your lazy comparison because it's a good opportunity to show you the difference staring you in the face.

All five characters aren't thinking 'What should I do now?', they're thinking 'What should we do now?', because they're a team. When playing as part of a team-based MP game, you have an obligation to other players.

Fortnite can be played in solos. Remove 3 characters from the Fortnite picture and participate in the thought experiment again. The "we" vs "me" is inconsequential as multiplayer game design can cater to "we" and "me".

Open world multiplayer (as well as single player) let's everyone be the character on the mountain weighing their options.

 

[ACESHIGH]

Because I can play them at my own pace

Because they are inmersive. MP games feel disigned in an assembly line. You have to wait in a lobby where lots of folks with stupid name tags wonder around. You always have to go to an NPC to give you quests, level up craft gear and the like.

I don't have to rely in my internet connection.
SP games don't get endless patches
MP games are repetitive as fuck and too time consuming.

 

[Neff]

The "we" vs "me" is inconsequential as multiplayer game design can cater to "we" and "me".

'Can' being the operative word.

I've never seen a MP game with mechanics, design, objectives or interaction as sophisticated as Breath of the Wild, or any highly-acclaimed single player adventure for that matter, and I'm not convinced I will in my lifetime.

 

[SlicedBread3]

I don't agree with this statement.

Multiplayer is no longer a sport. It was, for sure.

But the industry has found gold in open world, long arc multiplayer, which is less a sport and more a story.

League of Legends is hockey, basketball, football.
Rust is 28 Days Later, Lord of the Rings, Jurassic Park.

We're in a new era.

You're right in that modern multiplayer games are branching out from their sports-like origins. (I was mainly referring to the sports style because I'd used COD in the example). However I don't think I'd say they're currently providing an alternative to the cinematic single player experience.

I'd argue that at the moment games like Fortnite and Rust are popularising a newer category that's more like the digital version of social spaces such as nightclubs. (Just instead of dancing there's shooting. And instead of a DJ there are developers setting the mood with playlists and in game events... And instead of trying to get you to buy drinks it's cosmetic items etc). Where it's more about creating a space for people to bond over an activity and leaving with their own individual stories to tell.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

'Can' being the operative word.

I've never seen a MP game with mechanics, design, objectives or interaction as sophisticated as Breath of the Wild, or any highly-acclaimed single player adventure for that matter, and I'm not convinced I will in my lifetime.

Again, this is not a discussion focused on the past. I agree with you that single player has traditionally done the things you listed better.

My point is that multiplayer has never really had the open world canvas available...until now.

Multiplayer designers, for the first time in history are thinking about what the player should do when they're given 10, 20, 30+ minutes between PvP interactions. Old style multiplayer was always "dump players on top of eachother for 10 minutes and call it a day."

We're in a brand new era.

 

[Orta]

I barely interact with people irl.

Can't be having those cunts spoiling my game time.

 

[K' Dash]

I'm a dad now and I play in short bursts whenever I can. I could never do the 5-6 hours Destiny sessions from back in the day.

 

[Bogard]

More than anything, I like being able to enjoy a game at my own pace and still be able to accomplish things throughout. I get interrupted quite a bit too.

 

[Azurro]

I prefer stories, engaging, designed characters that go on a journey that leads somewhere. Playing the occasional multiplayer game like CoD is fun, but doing rounds after rounds of a multiplayer shooter is boring to me, there's little crossover with what I enjoy in a game. Let alone a monster like FFXIV or WoW, I don't even want to attempt to get into the complexity and time commitment of an MMORPG. I'd much rather play an RPG, a Metroidvania, a DMC/MGS or an action adventure game.

 

[Oddvintagechap]

I like both.

I played my fair share of Rocketleague, Rainbow Six Siege, Apex, Factions, etc.

But I only continue to play because of Single Player games.

Playstation exclusives specifically. They offer great graphics, interesting stories, and best of all they respect my time.

 

[Azurro]

The four leading complaints...

I prefer story in my games: "Who says multiplayer can't have great stories?" If Herman Hulst is saying this, so is the rest of the industry. It's also a question no one was asking 5 years ago.

I don't like the social aspect: Picture a character class (Mandalorians?) where one of their defining traits is not speaking. The lone wolf class. It's like Michael Myers walking through a house party. No one talks to or expects to coordinate with Michael Myers.

I don't like repitition: Open world survival games are the antidote to repetition. They provide players with larger power curves and give players a wider variety of tasks.

I don't want to full time job a game so I can compete: Asymmetrical design that allows players to choose what tasks they want to pursue will alleviate this.


All the reasons listed in the OP can be, and will be tackled in the next 5 years. Multiplayer is literally the Borg from Star Trek.

- You can't have a good story in a multiplayer game. Period.

- You can't tell someone that doesn't care about multiplayer games because he doesn't feel like being in a social setting to be in a social setting and just shut up.

- Multiplayer games ARE repetitive by their definition. They have a finite amount of activities and events that people repeat over and over and over for hundreds if not thousands of hours. Is there anything different between one Halo/CoD match and the next? The shooting is fun, but I'm not experiencing anything that I find personally enjoyable. Playing against human opponents is obviously better but in a single player game, the combat is just a part of the experience, and not the main motivation to play.

- So every game will become asymmetrical shooters?

I'm curious, how old are you? You sound like a kid that loves his Halo sessions and wonders why not everyone loves them just as much.

 

[Mozzarella]

I play and enjoy some multiplayer games, but my problem with them is that they require a lot of time investment from the player that you can get good at them, that's the main problem, i have work and i wanted to play other single player games because i love the experience, so when a multiplayer wants me to put 3-4 hours each day, every day, for months then it can get annoying.
Another reason is that i just prefer to soak into the atmosphere, alone, with nobody to joke around and derail the experience.
So two reasons.
I do still play some multiplayer games with my friends, because i like to socialize with my gamer friends, its cool. I played league for over 2k hours, and we played counter strike and some other games too. I used to play a lot of mmos in my school days like 12 years ago, but i have grown out of that genre.

 

[Dream-Knife]

I enjoy both.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You're right in that modern multiplayer games are branching out from their sports-like origins. (I was mainly referring to the sports style because I'd used COD in the example). However I don't think I'd say they're currently providing an alternative to the cinematic single player experience.

I'd argue that at the moment games like Fortnite and Rust are popularising a newer category that's more like the digital version of social spaces such as nightclubs. (Just instead of dancing there's shooting. And instead of a DJ there are developers setting the mood with playlists and in game events... And instead of trying to get you to buy drinks it's cosmetic items etc). Where it's more about creating a space for people to bond over an activity and leaving with their own individual stories to tell.

Look at that chart and compare it to Lord of the Rings. Now compare it to Horizon Forbidden West. Very obvious parallels with those two.

Now compare it to traditional Call of Duty multiplayer, Rocket League, Street Fighter, Goldeneye. It doesn't make sense with old style multiplayer. If you had to apply The Heros Journey to these types of games, you'd have to paste it on the player. Player buys Overwatch and sucks at it. Player keeps playing and slowly gets better. Player reached Gold ranking. Player finds YouTube tutorials and implements learned strategies. Player reaches Diamond rank! Player joins competitive team etc...

Now games like Rust, Day Z, Fortnite (new era) apply the Heroes Journey to actual matches.

Player finds himself naked on a beach. Player crafts clothes, finds a weapon. Player runs into stranger and forms an alliance. Duo stumbles upon a compound controlled by PvP players. Duo stealth into compound to steal valuable resource...

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

- You can't have a good story in a multiplayer game. Period.

PlayStations Herman Hulst is on record saying "Who says multiplayer can't have great stories?" Maybe you're right, maybe you're not. People in the industry are going to try.

- You can't tell someone that doesn't care about multiplayer games because he doesn't feel like being in a social setting to be in a social setting and just shut up.

Player: I don't like social interactions.

Multiplayer developer: We've built our game so you can avoid social interactions and social settings...and our game is fun.

Player: I'm skeptical but...I'll give it a shot.

- Multiplayer games ARE repetitive by their definition. They have a finite amount of activities and events that people repeat over and over and over for hundreds if not thousands of hours. Is there anything different between one Halo/CoD match and the next? The shooting is fun, but I'm not experiencing anything that I find personally enjoyable. Playing against human opponents is obviously better but in a single player game, the combat is just a part of the experience, and not the main motivation to play.

Go look at videos of Rust, Ark, and Star Citizen. Open world multiplayer is CLEARLY going in the direction of giving players a wide variety of objectives. This is not to say Rust, Ark, and Star Citizen are good games. They illustrate early versions of what's to come. The games your listing (Halo, CoD) are old era multiplayer that I, agree, are indeed repetitive.

- So every game will become asymmetrical shooters?

I'm predicting that asymmetrical design will be huge going forward. Not all of them will be shooters, no.

 

[Danjin44]

Multiplayer developer: We've built our game so you can avoid social interactions and social settings...and our game is fun.

I asked this before, at that point what is the point of playing MP? I can just play offline single player and don’t have to pay any subscriptions.

I think you are missing one important point to all of this. When people say they want to avoid social interaction they are not just talking about voice chat, they also talking about NOT wanting to play with other people….period.

 

[Amiga]

Love SP, but don't have a bias against MP. It's just that MP games is are difficult to balance to get me interested.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

In SP, imbalance is fun.
In MP, imbalance is patched out.

That was why I stopped playing PoE. The balancing went against me. I feel like the last boss is the devs and not the game boss. Multiplayer is poison to the single player experience.

 

[Bartski]

because I don’t like interacting with people who break my immersion in the world/story.

Games come in many flavors, many of which just don't really translate well over to multiplayer. Like games heavy on the story.

I see a the huge potential of emergent, "social storytelling" possible stemming from spontaneous interactions between players, but this would require everyone to be motivated to role-play and contribute to the immersion of others. And have perfect, spatially processed talkback.

Problem is - way too many people you meet online are just horrible and their sole objective is to ruin your time with the game by doing the exact opposite.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I asked this before, at that point what is the point of playing MP? I can just play offline single player and don’t have to pay any subscriptions.

I think you are missing one important point to all of this. When people say they want to avoid social interaction they are not just talking about voice chat, they also talking about NOT wanting to play with other people….period.

Because I'm socially interacting with people on NeoGAF who desperately want to avoid social interactions in multiplayer games.

Because I think a percentage of people don't actually want 0 social interaction, they want social interaction that appeals to them.

Because opponents that behave intelligently, compellingly, and realistically...be they AI or human players is superior to interacting with dumb AI.

Because people who say they hate multiplayer frequently say things like "Except that one game I played. I enjoyed that for a brief time."

People want fun, period. I don't think they really care whether that fun is being had with AI or with other humans. Just because they can't envision it, doesn't mean it can't exist.

 

[Danjin44]

People want fun, period. I don't think they really care whether that fun is being had with AI or with other humans. Just because they can't envision it, doesn't mean it can't exist.

But my idea of “fun” is to fight monsters in boss fights not with other players, I just don’t find it fun to play with other people, never did.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

There are roughly 4 types of gamers; competitive, social, exploretory and psychotic.

In a multiplayer game all 4 exists.
In single player games only exploritory gamers exist. And you can't get rid of psychopaths as long as it is multiplayer.

 

[Tschumi]

It's hard to answer, i think i never play mp because you don't know how good someone is going to be so you just don't know when you'll next have to confront failure.. then you play games which these people have probably been perfecting for years and it's nothing but confronting failure.. and i don't play games for ego boosts, or exquisite views on my ineptitude, i play games for delight and distraction

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Because I'm socially interacting with people on NeoGAF who desperately want to avoid social interactions in multiplayer games.

Because I think a percentage of people don't actually want 0 social interaction, they want social interaction that appeals to them.

Trust me, the second Neogaf posters can interfere with my browsing experience, i would leave and never come back. I don't know you, i dont need to know you, and i dont need anyone to form teams just to post here. The second this become Social i will be out of here.

 

[Imru’ al-Qays]

Multiplayer gaming with strangers is just junk food - there's no artistic curation and you're not forming or strengthening meaningful social bonds.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Trust me, the second Neogaf posters can interfere with my browsing experience, i would leave and never come back. I don't know you, i dont need to know you, and i dont need anyone to form teams just to post here. The second this become Social i will be out of here.

NeoGAF is social.

There's no mechanics in place here to "spawn kill" + "troll" eachother.

 

[Danjin44]

NeoGAF is social.

Talking about video games in forums and playing with other people are two different things. I don’t mind talking about games in forums but I HATE playing games with other people.

 

[Hinedorf]

I got to a point with the FPS genre where every new online title felt exploited right out the gate, no longer interested in the 'git gud' formula for games that are rampantly exploited by cheaters in both gameplay and micro transactions.

Video Games are supposed to be fun and it's very clear to me the more competitive a person is the likely they are to exploit games for whatever reason in their benefit, kind of the opposite of having fun.

By all means get griefed and grief all day in GTA Online, just wont find me there

 

[TheGreatMusashi]

It isn’t that I prefer one over the other, it all comes down to how many times can I do the same shit.

I’ve never leveled out of a Battlepass. Halo Infinite my favorite online shooters of the last decade but I’m only like level 40 or so.

I can’t play for more than like 10 hours of an online game before burning out.

The only online shooters I’ve ever really gotten into are Quake 3 and Unreal Tournament 2004.

I find myself buying a lot of new games and playing them for less time. I always revert back to more “retro” games.

Somehow I’ll put in 80 hours into a rom hack translation of an old SNES game but play the newest release for a few hours before getting bored of the long, drawn out story elements.

I don’t want to watch a long cutscene, I don’t want a 5 minute sequence where I walk and talk on a radio, that shit Gears really made prevalent.

I’m not super old or anything but I feel like I’m reminded daily that I’m a fossil. In every way.

But I guess that’s a part of getting older.

My kids will talk of Fortnite as I talked about Final Fantasy VI I guess.

Don’t want to be a “get off my lawn” type, but at I find that at best melancholy and at worst fucking depressing.

Many people talk about wanting 60 FPS+ and graphical fidelity.

I wish more would talk of learning past lessons in game design.

I feel ideas flourished when development was stuck within the hard boundaries of a single console and honestly when everything was a little less main stream.

Every game doesn’t need to be a movie to be impressive. If I wanted to watch a movie, I’d fucking watch one.

That’s another problem entirely. Still somehow, despite being a newer medium, game story writing sucks ass.

No offense to FFVII Remake, but I’m playing it now. I can’t be the only person rolling their eyes at some of this bullshit.

That motorcycle soldier part in Chapter 4? Cringeworthy and embarrassing.

Getting flashbacks thinking about Xenoblade Chronicles constant “MONADO” and FFVII Remake “MAKO.”

Even Barrett, a character I really liked in the original is fucking awful.

Imagine meeting him in real life.

Yeah, exactly.

Makes my skin crawl knowing that I purchased this and am willing to interact with it for more than a few hours.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Talking about video games in forums and playing with other people are two different things. I don’t mind talking about games in forums but I HATE playing games with other people.

All that can be true, and multiplayer designers are going to continue using wider and wider nets to get gamers money.

The multiplayer games you and I have played in the past are this...

This is widely considered the first movie of all time. It was literally just footage of a train pulling up. No sound. No actors. No additional shots.

Multiplayer is being added to, improved upon, and it's starting to appeal to a wider and wider type of player.

 

[Danjin44]

All that can be true, and multiplayer designers are going to continue using wider and wider nets to get gamers money.

I can tell you I'm not gonna be one of them.

 

[Rest]

I don't prefer single player. The problem with multiplayer games is that devs and publishers have essentially given up on local multiplayer. I'm not going to connect to the internet to play with other people. I like couch co-op, and it's pretty much not an option these days.

 

[Ev1L AuRoN]

I have little time to play some game, sometimes I just want to relax, I used to like to play some COD matches in casual, 10~30 minutes a pop, some adrenaline rush then I go on with my life. Unfortunately, I was banned for no reason and now I'm playing single-player only games.. Hope Microsoft fix the Activision BS customer service.

 

[DevilMayFlyForAWhiteGuy]

I dabble in shooters every now and then but the only multiplayer genre I ever put any real effort into is fighting games. I don’t have to worry about stupid teammates, and win or lose, everything is down to my own merits.

 

[SeraphJan]

Other people could break your immersion. But you can't break your own immersion unless you wanted to

 

[Neolombax]

These days I have a preference towards MP games because I can only play games at night after the kids have gone to bed, that doesn't leave me with a lot of time. I'd go on either COD Vanguard (people complain how awful this game is, I kinda love this game) or Destiny 2, play a few rounds and go to bed. MP games nowadays are pretty good at giving you a sense of progression so it feels rewarding.

I'm currently also going back to single player games like Horizon. There's a slew of good single player experiences of late like the updated Cyberpunk and Elden Ring, so I imagine I will be splitting time amongst these. The only issue I have with Single Player games is I can forget story beats if I leave them for too long. I tend to stay away from Battle Royale games though, it doesn't feel rewarding at all. I don't consider "getting gud" a meaningful progression.

 

[6502]

It's like going for a drive compared to catching a fucking bus.

 

[BaneIsPain]

I always prefer single player. The only “multiplayer” that is acceptable in my books is couch coop.

 

[SeraphJan]

I always prefer single player. The only “multiplayer” that is acceptable in my books is couch coop.

Yup, especially Fighting game for me in this form of multiplayer

 

[boo]

My way of playing fit better in with the single player experience. My favourite moments are, after having done the main story in RPGs or adventure games, to just run around in the gaming world and relax. Take in the sights from my favourite areas in the game. Do some side quests. Walk around in some village. Fight some unlucky monsters who should have left me alone. Pick up whatever I can pick up from the ground or trees or bushes in the game while I run around. Or find a mountain, climb up, look around and wonder, where do I go next.

Link climbing and running around in Breath of the Wild or sailing between islands in The Wind Waker. Geralt in Witcher 3 chilling out in Skellige while listening to the in game music and thinking about going to Toussaint.

 

[Beechos]

Too many games to play to spend 40+ hours on one game.

 

[Inanilmaz]

I want to play at my own pace. The older i get the more i hate multiplayer idk. But there where games like this that i really enjoyed:
Left 4 Dead
Resident Evil 5
Cod mw2, BF bad company 2, Killzone 2, Plants vs Zombie GW
EDF 5
Fat Princess

But thats it.