Support NeoGAF

[Lionel Richie]

I felt like pacing was the biggest flaw in the game. From a gameplay perspective, you get overleveled quickly, and the vast majority of the game becomes approaches story mode difficulty, even on death march. Granted this is not unique in RPGs. However, the stories and characters are so good that you do get in this sort of zen state and lose track of time experiencing everything.

The game is much more of an anthology than a focused story. Personally, I enjoy the latter.

I meant narrative pacing. In a game you usually don't know where you are in the story, like it could last for another hour or 10. TW3 lasts just the perfect amount, you can see it when the story is wrapping up and getting to that ending sequence never feels like you're wasting time. I don't know how to explain this properly, but TW3 felt like looking at a watch. You don't have to guess what time it is, it tells you that and you can check if that information is correct based on your surroundings. TW3 main quest feels tight and concise and yet expansive and surprising. It truly is a masterpiece.

 

[trapanesenyc]

The Witcher 3 was a perfect storm. A FANTASTIC game mid gen with an easy to market and sell protagonist and world that lead to heights I'm sure CD projeckt couldn't even predict. No matter how you slice it the Witcher surpassed the popularity of Biowares franchises and is neck and neck with Skyrim. It all started with the quality of the game, everything else was directly tied to that. Even if Bioware and Bethesda had 10/10 games the Witchers success kind of exist in a vacuum from those. My non gamer sister who asked to play The Witcher 3 after watching the netflix show wouldn't care less because Fallout 4 is a 10/10 game.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

This thread has made me want a Deep Dive with DunDun thread in which a few small paragraphs of thought are put into much cherished games. Not for hot take perspective but an actual conversation. This thread is actually a great thread and the idea of stretching out into design and writing of a game because of such a great emotional jarring first post would be great

DunDunDunpachi I am calling you out to waste more time on GAF!

I will try to waste more time on GAF, but I can't think of any other sacred cows or controversial takes.

DunDunDunpachi you've got me thinking again about the game.

It does rely too heavily on Witcher Vision. It's actually ridiculous how many quests revolve around that.

& I never liked the skill tree/grid thing that only let you add a new perk every few levels. I felt like the game was just holding me back for hours until all the perk slots were open, when I could take the respec potion & make the actual build I wanted.

Still one of the best ever though

For what it's worth, I felt the same way about the skill tree. It wasn't a lack of variety nor were the skills bad. Some weren't too useful but overall the skill tree itself was good. However it was handed out to the player so slowly. That said, I'm sure Geralt after 120 hours is more of a badass than Geralt after only 15 or 20 hours.

 

[Slings and Arrows]

I thought Skyrim was shit, put 80 hours in to it.

Fallout 4 was tripe. Put 50 hours in to it.

I've booted up the wither 3 on 4 separate occasions and can't even be arsed to get passed the training mission.

So, OP, I agree.

 

[iconmaster]

Without remarking on the game's quality, there is surely something to the notion that it benefited by releasing at such a dark time for other contributors in the space. If we work from Witcher 3's release year forward, you have

2015: Fallout 4, The Phantom Pain, Just Cause 3, Batman: Arkham Knight, Assassin's Creed: Syndicate
2016: Far Cry Primal, The Division, Watch Dogs 2
2017: Mass Effect: Andromeda, Ghost Recon: Wildlands, Middle-Earth: Shadow of War, Assassin's Creed: Odyssey, Horizon Zero Dawn, LoZ: Breath of the Wild

So until 2017 you only see open-world games that got a mixed reception at best.

 

[Eevee86]

I'm sure I'd love the story, but I can't for the life of me enjoy the gameplay. I tried to get into both 2 and 3 and gave up a few hours in each time. Movement and combat felt so clunky.

 

[Umbral]

You could argue that their mistakes left room for Witcher 3 to explode, but it would have been popular regardless.

The armor in the game is straight up clown shit though.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Without remarking on the game's quality, there is surely something to the notion that it benefited by releasing at such a dark time for other contributors in the space. If we work from Witcher 3's release year forward, you have

2015: Fallout 4, The Phantom Pain, Just Cause 3, Batman: Arkham Knight, Assassin's Creed: Syndicate
2016: Far Cry Primal, The Division, Watch Dogs 2
2017: Mass Effect: Andromeda, Ghost Recon: Wildlands, Middle-Earth: Shadow of War, Assassin's Creed: Odyssey, Horizon Zero Dawn, LoZ: Breath of the Wild

So until 2017 you only see open-world games that got a mixed reception at best.

I think you're on to something.

 

[iorek21]

The Witcher 3 is probably this gen's big winner, but it is nowhere flawless; combat is passable, animations and Geralt's controls are mediocre at its best moments (and terrible at its worst), open world exploration is a mixed bag, it has weird pacing and narrative structure....

BUT

It compensates in great dialogue, great sidequests, beautiful world, lots of quality content, no scummy moves by the devs, great expansions, great music, voice, and so on.

TW3 had a huge success back in 2015 and it still gets a lot of buzz even 5 years later; it is a big disservice to the game to say that its success is only due to other's failures, quite the contrary, CDPR managed to make a huge game with a lot of quality, and that is an achievement by itself.

Sure, it didn't innovate and it obviously has some flaws, but CDPR set up a quality standard in the genre, just as Rockstar did with GTA and RDR.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Cyberpunk won't have gameplay problem as it seems to be straight up shooter.

Witcher games are not known for gameplay. Cd project has a lot of good will with gog and other cool stuff they do. It definitely helps.

 

[Grinchy]

If they nailed an awesome combat system that was engaging and skillful, I might have been able to play more. I really enjoyed the Netflix show because the lore was so interesting to me. I couldn't really get far enough into the games to delve into that lore because actually playing it was so dull to me. Combine that with the monotone protagonist who speaks slowly to everyone and it just didn't grip me.

 

[sephiroth7x]

Interesting.

I haven't been taken with Witcher 3 and my current attempt is my third try at enjoying it (about 30 hours this time compared to maybe 4 or 5 each other attempt).

I agree in that the competition hasn't been there this gen and I also agree that the combat isn't all that great and I ALSO agree it hasn't done anything particularly progressive BUT it is still a fantastic example of the genre.

I may not like it much but no doubt about it, the game ticks every box regarding its genre.

I would argue it is kind of like Super Mario World after Super Mario Bros 3 (bear with me here). SMW wasn't as progressive as SMB3 but it was a perfect version of the genre as if they used everything from everywhere and made it perfect.

I am going to stop now, I am totally rambling...

 

[MDSLKTR]

I respect the effort and amount of work that went into it, but I just couldn't enjoy the game. It somehow works better for me as a tv show.
Cyberpunk will be a homerun though.

 

[Fuz]

I don't completely disagree with your points, but I disagree with your conclusions.


In any case, even if TW3 is a much, much better game and I have no real love for the new TES', Beth does better, more realistic, open worlds.

 

[HellforLeather]

Bethesda shit the bed last gen too. Fallout 3 was the last acceptable game by them IMO. That total garbage engine they use has been a complete pile of junk.

 

[gamerforever]

I don’t think this is true because bethesda haven’t produced a great game for years. I preferred oblivion to skyrim and just feel cd projects game is just so polished. It probably needs tighter controls and a better combat perspective to be perfect. I hope it gets a 60fps remaster and looks like the initial trailer shown off years ago.

 

[MadYarpen]

I think it is because of tits more than anything else.

 

[Javthusiast]

I can't stand ugly looking, terribly playing bethesda rpgs. Witcher 3 smokes them easy. Despite the mediocore gameplay, which even then is better than elder scrolls and fallout jank.

And witcher 3 is written and acted better as well.

 

[PPIMystaceus]

Even though The witcher 3 came out before Bethesda or Bioware released any of their current gen games?

 

[Pizdetz]

Witcher 3 would have been popular regardless, but it ended up being so dominant because there were hardly other alternatives that were decent.
I recently played through it again, now onto the DLC

 

[JoeyWestSide]

I played through all of andromeda, but I can't bring myself to even get halfway through of Witcher 3. I really don't like the combat or inventory systems and the world got stale for me really quickly. It's windy all the time, never ceasing. And the story just hasn't grabbed me much. I did the picnic with that one gal and got her to go back to my house but it doesn't feel like I need be recruiting friends (like in ME for example).

 

[Steve.1981]

I think it is because of tits more than anything else.

 

[Guilty_AI]

If they nailed an awesome combat system that was engaging and skillful, I might have been able to play more. I really enjoyed the Netflix show because the lore was so interesting to me. I couldn't really get far enough into the games to delve into that lore because actually playing it was so dull to me. Combine that with the monotone protagonist who speaks slowly to everyone and it just didn't grip me.

You could try Enhanced Edition mod for a more masochist, skill based experience

 

[Grinchy]

You could try Enhanced Edition mod for a more masochist, skill based experience

It's not really a "it should be harder" thing for me. It was more just that it felt so clunky and unrewarding. And after trying to like the first and second games, and failing to do so, I just didn't see any reason to push any further in the 3rd.

I'd really like to see them come up with a good and addicting combat system and have that be the meat of the game that drives the player to want to explore and learn more about the world.

 

[Bolivar687]

I do wonder what would've happened if CDPR invested more time into perfecting the combat and some of the simulation elements instead of making such a huge world and pouring in so much voice acting and scripting. What sort of game Witcher 3 could've been...

Instead of a true evolution of the franchise, Witcher 3 felt like Witcher 2 stretched over the much-larger skeleton of an open world.

I thought about this a lot myself after completing the game. I go back to the Witcher 2's siege intro sequence, or the battlefield in Act II. What would an alternate Witcher 3 have looked like if they kept going tall instead of going wide? I'm sure it would've been just as big of a moment in gaming, but I go back and forth about whether it would have been better. For me, Wild Hunt was such an incredible experience and momentous payoff of the first two games that I don't regret it either way.

 

[Guilty_AI]

It's not really a "it should be harder" thing for me. It was more just that it felt so clunky and unrewarding. And after trying to like the first and second games, and failing to do so, I just didn't see any reason to push any further in the 3rd.

I'd really like to see them come up with a good and addicting combat system and have that be the meat of the game that drives the player to want to explore and learn more about the world.

The mod doesn't just make it harder, it completely reworks the game's system from the ground up. Hitboxes, alchemy/potion/oil systems, movements, status, levels, everything is completely different from the original game.

The mod is also customizable and comes with easier modes, so its not like its made only for hardcore players. The overall objective is to make the game combat more immersive, tactical and skillful, as well as correcting some stuff that doesn't make sense on vanilla.

 

[SamFo]

It's an interesting take.
I think the Witcher's popularity also comes from being one of the only good sizable games in a huge next gen games drought at the start of this generation

 

[GeorgPrime]

The problem i have with bethesda games.

They decreasing in size and level design from morrowind over oblivion to skyrim.

And they still cant come up with a better engine.

I didnt bother playing oblivion. I didnt finish skyrim and iam bored from fallout 3. I will never touch a Bethesda game again after that bullshit called Fallout 4

I enjoyed New Vegas way more than Fo3 and FO4 together

 

[Pumpkin Seeds]

I never liked a Bethesda or Bioware game as much as I like Witcher 3.

 

[Peggies]

Mechanically it didn't really do anything groundbreaking, but it showed how much of a difference good writing can make.

 

[Dacon]

I loved Oblivion, Skyrim, and Mass Effect 1-3.

I have never played a Bethesda RPG that had characters that drew me in as much as the ones in the Witcher 2-3. I enjoyed playing in Bethesda's sandbox and questing, but I really didn't give a shit about ANYTHING happening in any of the games. The Witcher 3 also achieved something no other RPG I've played has, it made me invest in the sidequests, and actually got me interested in seeing them through for their own sake, and not just some reward at the end of the quests.

 

[Hostile_18]

The Witcher 3 truly is the best game ever made.

I'm playing it again at the moment and damn it still looks amazing.

 

[AeonGaidenRaiden]

W3 doesnt need to move anything forward...they just had amazing sidequests and story that most RPGs treat like simple fetch quests for XP grind. W3 I would say some sidequests were better than the main story.

 

[Roufianos]

Funny thing is, we all played and loved Witcher 3 before we knew Fallout 4 would be shit so no, that's not the reason. If anything the title in your OP should be Outer Worlds.

 

[zkorejo]

No shit. Ofcourse it's better than everything else because no other RPGs were as good. That's why it is considered as good as it is. There's no such thing as flawless games, every game has flaws.

Skyrim was last generation's best rpg and it had flaws too. I can make the same case about it for last generation like you did for Witcher. Doesn't change the fact it was considered the best.

It's not CDPRs fault Bethesda and Bioware are too lazy to make better games.

It's better than the competition this gen. Head and shoulders above them actually. That's a fact. What If conditions can downplay any accomplishment.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

TW3 is Skyrim on steroids and Dragon Age is a joke in comparison.
LOL@OP!

 

[Airbus Jr]

No Witcher 3 is still better than Bethesda and Bioware best game

And i have no doubt Cyberpunk 2077 will be another stellar game

 

[Kumomeme]

also worth to mention, witcher 3 feel like 'proper' story driven open world rpg, unlike those game that full of repetitive stuff everywhere

and witcher 3 is single player rpg with proper protagonist tied heavy to storyline and world, compared to those company franchise where it player created character which is more about freedom in gameplay

former and later not bad, it just until that moment we finally get a heavy story driven with cinematic, voice over side quest with pre-set up protagonist so there room and advantages compared to game like elder scroll or dragon age where the main character could be anything

it would be interesting if next dragon age or elder scroll had fixed protagonist tied heavy to the storyline and world direction
and if those 2 game havent 'dropped' the ball by continuously making game with repetitive content, suck combat like skyrim, the impact witcher 3 bring to industry would be loose up a bit

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

also worth to mention, witcher 3 feel like 'proper' story driven open world rpg, unlike those game that full of repetitive stuff everywhere

and witcher 3 is single player rpg with proper protagonist tied heavy to storyline and world, compared to those company franchise where it player created character which is more about freedom in gameplay

former and later not bad, it just until this moment we finally get a heavy story driven with cinematic, voice over side quest with pre-set up protagonist so there room and advantages compared to game like elder scroll or dragon age where the main character could be anything

Yeah good point, I didn't consider that. Witcher series stuck out because it was about a specific character in the world. Yes, players had freedom to guide Geralt's actions and create their "own Geralt" in terms of equipment, skills, and path through the world, but it was still Geralt.

I can't remember the last time I played an open-world RPG that "narrowly" focused on one character.

 

[Knitted Knight]

It would probably have less mindshare that's obvious so in that regard I agree. When it comes to the quality of the game however; nope. It stands on its own.

 

[Kumomeme]

Yeah good point, I didn't consider that. Witcher series stuck out because it was about a specific character in the world. Yes, players had freedom to guide Geralt's actions and create their "own Geralt" in terms of equipment, skills, and path through the world, but it was still Geralt.

I can't remember the last time I played an open-world RPG that "narrowly" focused on one character.

yep..one of disadvantages game with character created protagonist..branching out all possiblities that the character could be based on player is not easy, especially want to tied it with heavy storyline to make sure it always make sense

dark soul and sekiro could be interesting comparison..with sekiro mc, devs could put more backstory, personality and stuff....

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

yep..one of disadvantages game with character created protagonist..branching out all possiblities that the character could be based on player is not easy, especially want to tied it with heavy storyline to make sure it always make sense

Single-protagonist story seemed to work quite well in Kingdom Come: Deliverance, which a niche of fans consider one of the best RPGs of the gen, too. Hmm.

EDITed for clarity.

 

[Boss Mog]

I kinda of agree with OP. Bioware decided to hand their biggest franchise, Mass Effect to the SJW B team and Bethesda is still using the same engine from Obivion in all its games. They need to toss that engine in the trash and start from scratch on something truly next gen.

 

[JCK75]

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree.

 

[Virex]

Though Witcher 3 is a fine game and I really like it. Same with Witcher 2. Witcher 1 is still the best of them all(Enhanced Edition. Vanilla was pure suffering at times). Witcher 1 is better than most shit Bethesda released. Bar Daggerfall and Morrowind

 

[Majukun]

game was definitely not perfect and at lunch some design decisions were bafflingly bad, but i can't re<lly deby the enjoyment i got from it, even with all its flaws

 

[Kumomeme]

Single-protagonist story seemed to work quite well in Kingdom Come: Deliverance, which a niche of fans consider one of the best RPGs of the gen, too. Hmm.

EDITed for clarity.

you mean player created character? i havent played yet kingdom come deliverance....well not it that impossible..it just not easy...other game the character usually end up generic, or just pose as passeby or as someone who happened to be there without actually had relation to the story and main character that the story revolve around to..skyrim character introduction also reflect this..the character just a nobody come out nowhere on cart waiting to be executed

ffxiv shadowbringers do something interesting in this regard ...the main playable controlled character actually had personality, there even a scene where other npc come, give comfort and push the main character..... the story revolve/rooted around him and devs even hinted set up past/backstory or relation with main villain (which is probably will revealed later in future)

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

you mean player created character? i havent played yet kingdom come deliverance....well not it that impossible..it just not easy...other game the character usually end up generic, or just pose as passeby or as someone who happened to be there without actually had relation to the story and main character that the story revolve around to..skyrim character introduction also reflect this..the character just a nobody come out nowhere on cart waiting to be executed

ffxiv shadowbringers do something interesting in this regard ...the main playable controlled character actually had personality, there even a scene where other npc come, give comfort and push the main character..... the story revolve/rooted around him and devs even hinted set up past/backstory or relation with main villain (which is probably will revealed later in future)

KCD has a singular hero -- Henry -- but the player can expand his skillset and pursue quests more-or-less however they want. So I was just pointing out that Witcher 3 and KCD both have a single hero instead of a "create a character" prior to the game, and perhaps that is what lends narrative strength and consistency to both games.