Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Yup... and not trivial to get right once you deal with physics simulations either: https://gafferongames.com/post/fix_your_timestep/ (quite interesting intro/reference post on the subject)
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Xbox Series X, BC to bring HDR and 60/120 FPS
- Thread starter Thirty7ven
- Start date
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Yup... and not trivial to get right once you deal with physics simulations either: https://gafferongames.com/post/fix_your_timestep/ (quite interesting intro/reference post on the subject)
TBiddy
Member
look... want to have fun in your group fine or maybe present yourself as the independent arbiter, but do not treat others like idiots and accuse others of being passive aggressive trying to stir shit up.
I'm not in any group, and I'm not treating anyone like idiots. Just like most other people on this forum (myself included) you also post passive aggressive shit from time to time. You try to hide it by using smileys - I don't. This'll be my last post on this matter. The thread is already derailed (since someone thought it necessary to start talking about Sony) , and there's no need to derail it any further.
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DarthFeanor
Banned
How prevalent are TVs that can output at 120fps?
How can I figure out if one has this capability?
How can I figure out if one has this capability?
ZywyPL
Banned
It needs to have native 120Hz refresh rate. And HDMI2.1 if you want that framerate at 4K, 2.0 is enough only for 1080-1440p.
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Phunkydiabetic
Banned
You realize that the vast majority of the public couldn't care less about 60fps, let alone 120fps? Exclusives, yeah they care about that as PS4 sales have shown.
Bernkastel
Ask me about my fanboy energy!
If they only cared about exclusives Nintendo would not be hand held only these days. It's the whole package where Sony shines. They have exclusives, hardware, services, third party support, ect. No one else can put together the whole package consistently.
T-Cake
Member
I wonder what games are going to get this treatment though. Xbox has talked about features but we have no idea which games are going to get enhanced further than they run on Xbox One X.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
I think those already enhanced is somewhat certainty.
Soodanim
Member
The idea of even some games getting enhanced is pretty huge, on the level of PC running old games at modern refresh rates and resolutions. If Microsoft manage that for any notable games and market it they could do themselves some favours. Imagine taking your favourite Forza and playing it at 120fps.
Kuranghi
Member
HDR thats handcrafted by the devs and considered in the art pipeline from the start is often disappointing, let alone added at the end of developement or even post launch. I'd imagine HDR done automaticially would be pretty cruddy and about as good as dynamic tonemapping in modern TVs, and maybe not even as good as most implementations of it.
People who purport themselves as hobbyist-semi-experts in HDR implementation like EvilBoris (who has worked with Moon Studios recently on the Ori 2 PC HDR patch) produce their own HDR content that looks like total crap to me and I really hope they don't become the arbiters of what HDR should be in games. I just stopped watching his HDR conversions because they either look really gaudy and overdone or have weird issues that apparently look normal on his setup. Check out his last few vids where he has converted next-gen trailers that are SDR to HDR by converted the colour space and increasing the dynamic range, they look horrible to me and he is doing this by hand on a (presumably) shot-by-shot basis:
www.youtube.com
Here is one of the headscratcher shots for me (This is over on Vincent Teoh's HDTVtest channel instead of Boris' youtube channel), he says there is a problem with overbrightening here and it makes it everything too bright... he doesn't mention that all the colours are completely fucked up and oversaturated and the image just generally looks awful, maybe he didn't see that on his end and its a problem with the final video output? I've seen him say that this sort of image looks "good" more than a few times now and I just can't take him seriously now because of that:
What I'm trying to say is that this part of the video is so different to everything else he shows that it looks to me to be an actual problem with the output and something went wrong there for it to look like that, but he seems to think thats just how the game should look in that scene, puzzling to me. If I saw that image after having seen the flatter image from the rest of the video for the whole game I would immediately assume the output was wrong or the TV hadn't switched to HDR properly, its just not correct imo.
I was very disapppointed with the Ori 2 HDR and kinda confused as to what they were going for with the default settings, they looks absolutely awful to me and I tried to ask EB and one of the lead devs about it directly on the other forum but their answers were completely non-specific and generally not useful so I just gave up and played it in SDR after a month.
www.resetera.com
Below are my screenshots to show how fucked up the contrast is at default settings, it nearly looked correct at the minimum value of 0.5 but I still needed it to go lower to not look like bad tonemapping of SDR and they didn't really help me out with my "problem" in any way. Its like they made the default settings for really low contrast IPS panel TVs and if you have a really bright FALD you are just shit out of luck. If you look at the 2nd picture you can see how the shadows are crushed and highlights totally blown out at default contrast setting of 1.0 and then in the 3rd pic its better, with a less flat image than the SDR pic but it still has a loss of shadow detail and slightly blown out highlights that I don't get at all on SDR:
I find that really weird since I know EvilBoris owns an OLED so presume he did most if not all of his testing on that. I imagine the default setting of 1.0 for contrast would make the shadows very hard to see in a lit room on an OLED, plus the fact that my FALD will be elevating those shadows a bit due to the limitations of the tech not being able to show the true brightness level of the those pixels. He did say in one of the replies that he uses the minimum contrast value of 0.5 like I settled on which begs the questions, why wouldn't you increase the range if your sweet spot was the min value? I'm so bloody confused.
TL;DR - HDR is hard to get right when you do it by hand, auto-HDR will most likely suck imo. I found some HDR lacking in recent games and tried to ask HDR enthusiasts and devs who worked on the games why I was seeing what I was seeing and their answers were either lacking or milquetoast. You know when you are talking to someone about something technical and then you point something out and they can't explain why its wrong or argue that there isn't a problem and you think "hmm, maybe this person doesn't know as much as I thought they did" lol.
People who purport themselves as hobbyist-semi-experts in HDR implementation like EvilBoris (who has worked with Moon Studios recently on the Ori 2 PC HDR patch) produce their own HDR content that looks like total crap to me and I really hope they don't become the arbiters of what HDR should be in games. I just stopped watching his HDR conversions because they either look really gaudy and overdone or have weird issues that apparently look normal on his setup. Check out his last few vids where he has converted next-gen trailers that are SDR to HDR by converted the colour space and increasing the dynamic range, they look horrible to me and he is doing this by hand on a (presumably) shot-by-shot basis:
EvilBoris
Here you will find various experiments I am running for my HDR analysis. You may even find the odd grading attempt, to try and re-grade an old game, into a m...
www.youtube.com
Here is one of the headscratcher shots for me (This is over on Vincent Teoh's HDTVtest channel instead of Boris' youtube channel), he says there is a problem with overbrightening here and it makes it everything too bright... he doesn't mention that all the colours are completely fucked up and oversaturated and the image just generally looks awful, maybe he didn't see that on his end and its a problem with the final video output? I've seen him say that this sort of image looks "good" more than a few times now and I just can't take him seriously now because of that:
What I'm trying to say is that this part of the video is so different to everything else he shows that it looks to me to be an actual problem with the output and something went wrong there for it to look like that, but he seems to think thats just how the game should look in that scene, puzzling to me. If I saw that image after having seen the flatter image from the rest of the video for the whole game I would immediately assume the output was wrong or the TV hadn't switched to HDR properly, its just not correct imo.
I was very disapppointed with the Ori 2 HDR and kinda confused as to what they were going for with the default settings, they looks absolutely awful to me and I tried to ask EB and one of the lead devs about it directly on the other forum but their answers were completely non-specific and generally not useful so I just gave up and played it in SDR after a month.
Digital Foundry: Ori And The Will Of The Wisps Analysis - XB1S dropping as low as 28FPS and X as low as 35FPS
That’s just when the original blog post went up with the expected fixes. They announced it on their Twitter today that it’s out after being delayed. Sigh this is such a bummer, I bought the collectors edition and now I just feel silly. Feeling like I’m going to have to wait till the end of the...
www.resetera.com
Below are my screenshots to show how fucked up the contrast is at default settings, it nearly looked correct at the minimum value of 0.5 but I still needed it to go lower to not look like bad tonemapping of SDR and they didn't really help me out with my "problem" in any way. Its like they made the default settings for really low contrast IPS panel TVs and if you have a really bright FALD you are just shit out of luck. If you look at the 2nd picture you can see how the shadows are crushed and highlights totally blown out at default contrast setting of 1.0 and then in the 3rd pic its better, with a less flat image than the SDR pic but it still has a loss of shadow detail and slightly blown out highlights that I don't get at all on SDR:
I find that really weird since I know EvilBoris owns an OLED so presume he did most if not all of his testing on that. I imagine the default setting of 1.0 for contrast would make the shadows very hard to see in a lit room on an OLED, plus the fact that my FALD will be elevating those shadows a bit due to the limitations of the tech not being able to show the true brightness level of the those pixels. He did say in one of the replies that he uses the minimum contrast value of 0.5 like I settled on which begs the questions, why wouldn't you increase the range if your sweet spot was the min value? I'm so bloody confused.
TL;DR - HDR is hard to get right when you do it by hand, auto-HDR will most likely suck imo. I found some HDR lacking in recent games and tried to ask HDR enthusiasts and devs who worked on the games why I was seeing what I was seeing and their answers were either lacking or milquetoast. You know when you are talking to someone about something technical and then you point something out and they can't explain why its wrong or argue that there isn't a problem and you think "hmm, maybe this person doesn't know as much as I thought they did" lol.
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base
Banned
You don't really expect it to have a proper HDR? Just more saturation added. Nothing more.
Roberts
Member
I was wondering how this 30 to 60 fps conversion is going to work (considering they are not fiddling with code)? I can understand the camera will get smoother, but what about animations? Some games have very low animation framerate for characters in the background - will that stay the same?
diffusionx
Gold Member
It is going to be on a game-by-game basis, like the One X enhancements today. Many games, especially ones with PC versions, are quite capable of running at 60fps. I played the PC versions of games like Bioshock Infinite and TR2013 at 60fps at release, stuff like that.