Are you doing this on purpose? Lets put it simple. At which point of the first battle, the battle of Hoth or the last one were they spread thin and furthermore, spread thin enough to explain the defeat, when even the characters on screen point out how the Empire outnumbers them? Especially interested regarding Battle of Hoth.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
LTTP: Star Wars Saga [Updated as I watch]
- Thread starter Ray Wonder
- Start date
- Status
Are you doing this on purpose? Lets put it simple. At which point of the first battle, the battle of Hoth or the last one were they spread thin and furthermore, spread thin enough to explain the defeat, when even the characters on screen point out how the Empire outnumbers them? Especially interested regarding Battle of Hoth.
WadiumArcadium
Member
I'm not saying the Empire doesn't outnumber them. Forget it.
I agree my examples were badly chosen, but the point remains that 20 years is not a long time for an Empire. Also gotta say that the notion of Star Wars being lighthearted always amused me. The first one alone has gruesome murders, torture and extreme mass destruction not once but twice.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
And Grimm's fairy tales feature children being eaten alive.
Some of the most beloved Looney Tunes cartoons feature people getting shot in the face multiple times.
It's all in how you sell it.
Star Wars is (or was supposed to be) a relatively lighthearted adventure series.
A lot of people tend to downplay the fact that the darkest chapter of the OT (Empire Strikes Back) is also the funniest.
Some of the most beloved Looney Tunes cartoons feature people getting shot in the face multiple times.
It's all in how you sell it.
Star Wars is (or was supposed to be) a relatively lighthearted adventure series.
A lot of people tend to downplay the fact that the darkest chapter of the OT (Empire Strikes Back) is also the funniest.
Next you're gonna say Marvel films are not lighthearted either. They're just one-step removed from Saturday morning action cartoons. It's about the tone and depiction of the acts, not just the presence of the act (there are exceptions of course) which dictates how the piece plays. If you take issue with presence of such violence being incompatible with a lighter tone, let me remind you nobody watches Star Wars for its examination of war and violence. It's all a joy ride and escapism. If you take issue with that, then you take issue with the value system of our society which is fair enough.
I'm not sure what you are going for. Yes, some Brother Grimm tales are not lighthearted. They never pretend to be.
Looney Tunes involves cartoon characters which reappear in the next short. Star Wars involves the definitive death of live action characters which is treated like a saturday morning cartoon.
Yes, the filmseries Star Wars does not provide any insight in the cruelty of war, or any aspect of war for that matter. It displays the death of thousands in cool and awesome ways to provide lighthearted joy and escapism. And yes, Star Wars paved the way for Marvel amongst others.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
You quoted it directly: "Its all in how you sell it"
Tone means something. It means a lot, actually. Arguing that Star Wars isn't lighthearted might make for a good semantic/intellectual argument in the abstract, but its fairly obvious the films (especially the first one in 77) is meant to be lighthearted, despite the events that (context removed) might not seem as such.
Much like the examples I gave. Tone matters. Star Wars is more lighthearted than isn't.
Jack Remington
Banned
IIRC there are a few thousand star systems, and the Empire has at least one Star Destroyer for each of them. They have like 50 at Endor.
Yes, the tone does not match the content in Star Wars. I'm not disagreeing there. The movie is not interested in making you interested or even emotionally invested in the killing of millions, at best, its a celebratory event.
Your examples were bad. Brothers Grimm dark tales are dark. Looney Tunes are not live action. Star Wars just treats the death of Lukes "parents", the torture of Leia as imaginery for the moment. Just like a saturday morning cartoon.
Jack Remington
Banned
The deaths of Luke's uncle and aunt are the entire reason he joins the rebellion.
Let me quote Lukes moment of grief
Words of saddened man. Does the death ever come up again? Has been a while.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
no, if you're trying to argue that Star Wars isn't lighthearted, your argument is bad.
I get the sense we're probably talking past each other and aren't really disagreeing as much as we seem to be. In fact, that last post seems to be agreeing with me more than it isn't, in that you agree that emotionally, there's no difference between Star Wars and a Saturday Morning Cartoon.
Hence: Lighthearted.
My point was the tone does not fit the content, which is a quite jarring experience if I might add. It lacks selfawareness combined with a disinterest in humans.
To put it differently, its in the same way lighthearted Michael Bay movies are.
I wonder, was this started by Tommy Boy, or at least popularized by it?
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Episode VI: Return of the Jedi
This one, I had no idea what to expect. The spoilers from this movie somehow avoided me. The only thing I knew is that there was another Death Star, which was revealed to me in this thread --- So, I am definitely biased on how much I liked it. So far it's my favorite. Once again, beautiful sets, except for the painting of the Millennium Falcon when Han is talking to Lando. It was as clear as day it wasn't actually there, although by itself it was a cool painting.
The Jabba Rescue was pretty great. I had a "Goku returning from the hyperbolic time chamber" feel from Luke. Came in, confident in everything that he had planned, and executed. Leia was a badass, choking out Jabba. One thing that felt really bad was the fucking Boba Fett death. The dude got jipped on a decent death. Flopped right on in the pit with a single pop to his jet pack. I was like, " Oh. That it for him?"
Luke in the emperor's place with Vader was awesome. Keep in mind this is the first time there has been a moment where I literally had no idea what was going to happen. The only thing I knew is Luke lived. I didn't know if he would be converted, if Vader died, if the Emperor died, but damn.. Vader "Andre the Giant" flung the Emperor over the ropes. I loved it.
I liked the exchange between Leia and Han that reversed the "I Love you".. "I Know" lines. Thought it was cute.
I dug the Ewoks, they were god damned adorable. I agreed with whoever in this thread was saying that Star Wars was lighthearted, all the way up until they showed the two Ewoks get blasted. One lifelessly adjusted from the gravity settling him into his final resting place, while the other twitched in agony. Finally he gets up and notices that one of his own died in the same blast he survived. That shit was sad.
I was kinda upset when Yoda died, as I realized that when he "There is another" that he meant Leia. I mean that's kinda cool, but I thought he was predicting the future, not saying "Luke it's your sister". Oh well.
I fucking died when Admiral Ackbar.. "IT'S A TRAP".
I have a feeling I'm going to miss this motley crew when I go to the prequels.
EDIT: Just looked up the deleted scene of Luke making his lightsaber. What a terrible scene to remove. It's like 30 seconds long and explains two important things.
This one, I had no idea what to expect. The spoilers from this movie somehow avoided me. The only thing I knew is that there was another Death Star, which was revealed to me in this thread --- So, I am definitely biased on how much I liked it. So far it's my favorite. Once again, beautiful sets, except for the painting of the Millennium Falcon when Han is talking to Lando. It was as clear as day it wasn't actually there, although by itself it was a cool painting.
The Jabba Rescue was pretty great. I had a "Goku returning from the hyperbolic time chamber" feel from Luke. Came in, confident in everything that he had planned, and executed. Leia was a badass, choking out Jabba. One thing that felt really bad was the fucking Boba Fett death. The dude got jipped on a decent death. Flopped right on in the pit with a single pop to his jet pack. I was like, " Oh. That it for him?"
Luke in the emperor's place with Vader was awesome. Keep in mind this is the first time there has been a moment where I literally had no idea what was going to happen. The only thing I knew is Luke lived. I didn't know if he would be converted, if Vader died, if the Emperor died, but damn.. Vader "Andre the Giant" flung the Emperor over the ropes. I loved it.
I liked the exchange between Leia and Han that reversed the "I Love you".. "I Know" lines. Thought it was cute.
I dug the Ewoks, they were god damned adorable. I agreed with whoever in this thread was saying that Star Wars was lighthearted, all the way up until they showed the two Ewoks get blasted. One lifelessly adjusted from the gravity settling him into his final resting place, while the other twitched in agony. Finally he gets up and notices that one of his own died in the same blast he survived. That shit was sad.
I was kinda upset when Yoda died, as I realized that when he "There is another" that he meant Leia. I mean that's kinda cool, but I thought he was predicting the future, not saying "Luke it's your sister". Oh well.
I fucking died when Admiral Ackbar.. "IT'S A TRAP".
I have a feeling I'm going to miss this motley crew when I go to the prequels.
EDIT: Just looked up the deleted scene of Luke making his lightsaber. What a terrible scene to remove. It's like 30 seconds long and explains two important things.
It was more important to add a CG musical number and have Vader say "NOOOOOOOO" again.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
When Vader yanked up the emperor and flung his ass? I wouldn't have known. I thought it was alright.
Tizoc
Member
To this day I still don't get the Admiral Ackbar it's a trap trope/meme...
Also rewatch this movie and take a drink every time the Emperor says 'DARK SIDE OF THE FORCE'. I swear he says those words in EVERY scene he appears in @_@
dragonyeuw
Member
Congrats, it all goes downhill from here( not to be a debbie downer) except the Clone Wars cartoon series, which is excellent. But yes, in reference to your comment about missing the OT crew, it will quickly become apparent how lacking in personality the PT cast is by comparison.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
The way the emperor's mouth moved bothered me a bit. Like he was a deaf translator making sure that they could see every syllable he was speaking.
I will not be swayed by your bias!
It sounds unnecessary and silly to me, but then again I grew up having seen that scene with a silent Vader and after having seen the scene the "Nooo" clip originally comes from, I can't take it seriously.
I hope you plan on watching The Clone Wars movie.
No I don't.
dragonyeuw
Member
That would only be because you've never seen the original scene, so you have no frame of reference. Now that you've seen it, I would encourage you to youtube the unaltered scene without 'Noooooooooo'.
The brilliance of the original scene was that we, as the audience, could 'see' the conflict rising within Vader even behind a mask. No word needed to be uttered, it was a moment that spoke for itself. But,it will become apparent to you what he was trying to do after you've watched the PT films. But yeah, apparently it wasn't obvious enough that Vader was conflicted before, so we needed an audio cue to slap us upside the head.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Oh, I do. I do plan on it.
Yeah, I completely understood that he was feeling that good good surge up in him. I didn't need the noooooo, but I didn't hate it either. Of course, like you both say, it's because I didn't see it with the silent Vader first.
dragonyeuw
Member
Don't be, you aren't watching this with the anticipation of those who grew up on the OT, and were salivating at the prospect of a new trilogy back in 1999. The PT had impossible expectations to live up to. Your experience may be different from those who aren't gung-ho on the newer movies. SO, enjoy the PT and I'm interested to read your impressions.
My condolences.
Tizoc
Member
Actually you should just skip the next trilogy and go straight into The Clone Wars cartoon series:
First with the 2D series, then the CGI movie, then the CGI series
Boom there's your prequel era~
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Oh wait. I just looked it up. Is that canon? If not, then no, I'm not going to watch it.
That's really confusing. I'm getting overwhelmed now.
I just want canon. In the order it was released. That's how I'm doing it.
I believe it is. It's just an overly long episode of the cartoon with some silly plot about Jabba's son being kidnapped.
Honestly you're better off just playing a non-canon Star Wars game, like Knights of the Old Republic or Jedi Knight.
The Clone Wars movie isn't particularly good but you need to watch it for the tv series as it sets everything up and as many will tell you the show is incredible. So ignore those telling you to skip it.
The 2D Clone Wars series is NOT canon btw. Just the cgi series and film.
On screen canon in release order is:
A New Hope
The Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
Revenge of the Sith
The Clone Wars (film)
The Clone Wars (TV series, 6 seasons)
Rebels (TV series, season 2 begins next month)
The Force Awakens
All other tv shows and movies are non-canon. As is every video game currently out.
The 2D Clone Wars series is NOT canon btw. Just the cgi series and film.
On screen canon in release order is:
A New Hope
The Empire Strikes Back
Return of the Jedi
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
Revenge of the Sith
The Clone Wars (film)
The Clone Wars (TV series, 6 seasons)
Rebels (TV series, season 2 begins next month)
The Force Awakens
All other tv shows and movies are non-canon. As is every video game currently out.
dragonyeuw
Member
Clone Wars show( the CGI one) and the current Rebels show are both canon. So, if you're doing it in order of release, its OT-PT-Clone Wars movie(2008)- Clone Wars TV show( 2008-2014)- Star Wars Rebels.
Also, while I think its no longer canon, in terms of quality I would encourage you to watch the 2003 Clone Wars Cartoon. If for no other reason, you'll see how bad-ass one particular character was presented, and then wonder what the hell happened to the live-action version. But, watch it after everything else if you're mainly interested in purley canon stuff.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Hmm, well, I think I'll just suffer through it.
Aw fucking awesome. Thanks Cheebo. This is exactly what I needed. I knew I could count on the R2 avatar.
Thanks, if I get through everything canon before The Force Awakens comes out I will definitely check out that series. If I'm anything like how I am now, I'm gonna watch as much Star Wars as I can get my grubby little mitts on.
Tizoc
Member
OK let me make it simpler :3
Watch this now
Then watch this (or skip it based on how some people find it pretty mediocre at best)
Finally watch this awesome CGI animated series
Don't ask why they stuck with the same title, but rest assured that these feature some of the best action you'll see in an official (at least for the time) SW series.
Oh and those who say the 2D series is non-canon...whatevs mang, it has great action and animation, watch it cuz it's fucking awesome.
EDIT: Oh then watch Rebels after that
dragonyeuw
Member
The TC expressed a lack of interest in non-canon stuff, which is why it was clarified that the 2003 cartoon is no longer considered a canon entry, but worth watching after he gets through with the canon stuff.
TheSecondSpitter
Member
Viewed objectively, the highlighted statement doesn't carry a lot of weight. It hardly constitutes an argument. Either:
(a) cite examples of the lighthearted nature of the films (especially '77) or;
(b) rebut the premise that the 'dark' scenes were consequential to the overall tone, or
(c) both.
Making the comparison with a Grimm Bros fairytale or WB cartoon is not a probative analogy in the assessment of the overall tone of Star Wars.
Wow, this is what you call a false analogy. But if you cannot observe the distinction between cartoon violence and live-action violence perhaps I shouldn't bother engaging this debate.
Tizoc
Member
Fair enough then :3
Pagusas
Elden Member
OK let me make it simpler :3
Watch this now
Then watch this (or skip it based on how some people find it pretty mediocre at best)
Finally watch this awesome CGI animated series
Don't ask why they stuck with the same title, but rest assured that these feature some of the best action you'll see in an official (at least for the time) SW series.
Oh and those who say the 2D series is non-canon...whatevs mang, it has great action and animation, watch it cuz it's fucking awesome.
EDIT: Oh then watch Rebels after that
Does the 2d and 3d clone war series overlap or cover the same story? Or do they take place at different points? I thought the 2D one went right up to the start of the 3rd film, so where is there room for the CG series story?
graffix13
Member
Good man. Stick to your plan.
Some of us actually like the prequels, so don't listen to the hate. Watch them and decide for yourself. Although prepare for the hate-filled posts that follow when you post your summary.
Tizoc
Member
Well they made the 2D series non-canon now, and personally I'm a guy who doesn't care all that much about SW continuity and when events would take place.
Watch the 2D series for the awesome action and animation, don't worry too much about if a character gets Picollo-ed during the 3D series, and just go with the flow :3
That's just me though :X
Pagusas
Elden Member
Got it, I'm the opposite, the flash and bang of action no longer impresses me in any way, I care about continuity and a well told story and charecters, if it doesnt line up and all it offers are cool action scenes, I have no interest in it.
Agreed, he should decide for his own. While most/many at GAF dislike them MANY in the fandom are pretty big fans of the prequels.
On screen canon is pretty simple (in production order):
The Original Trilogy (1977-1983):
The Prequel Trilogy (1999-2005):
The Clone Wars (2008-2014):
Rebels (2014-):
The Force Awakens (2015):
That is it.
Tizoc
Member
Eh what would you guys say are the 'redeeming' factors of the prequel trilogy? As is I don't plan on watching them in preparation for Force Awakens.
That's a shame, but I do hope you'll give it a watch someday :3
That's a shame, but I do hope you'll give it a watch someday :3
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Oh, I'm ready. I hope I love the PT. I really do. I'm keeping my expectations low, and hoping for the best.
Pagusas
Elden Member
Eh what would you guys say are the 'redeeming' factors of the prequel trilogy? As is I don't plan on watching them in preparation for Force Awakens.
That's a shame, but I do hope you'll give it a watch someday :3
I HATE the prequels, with a deep passion, but I will still say they have "redeeming" qualities, those being:
1. Visuals, they are pretty, and give us some great new dog fights, some great action scenes.
2. They expand the universe, even if I dont agree with the look of things or the overal quality of what was presented, they still added a ton of new things to the universe
3. Some really good music
4. Pod racing really is pretty awesome
5. SOME of the lightsaber fights are pretty awesome
Story wise they are nothing but pure shit and have no redeaming qualities.
Long Drong
Member
I think the best thing about de prequels is the 2D series
TheSecondSpitter
Member
1. None of the dogfights carried any emotional weight because the fate of protagonist was already known (e.g. Obi-wan v. Jango) or they drowned out in the excess on-screen clutter.
2. Expanded by adding shit like Dexter Jettser or the fact everybody appeared to attended the same galactic kindergarten ?
5. The lightsaber fights were over-choreographed, overly long or involved contrived stipulations (force-fields in TPM, convenient incapacitations (x2), and ridiculous climaxes ("the high ground") ). Also, see point #1.
Ray Wonder
Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
Hmph. I guess starwars.com is a reliable source.
It was a good guess on his part because it was re-released in '79 as well (which is when I saw it the first time). Hell, I don't even remember it coming out again in '81.
Count Dookkake
Member
Ray Wonder, I envy that you are so close to seeing the best SW movie for the first time.
- Status