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[Mod of War]

Dial it right back, right now on juvenile console wars going forward. You can talk speculations without sounding like petulant children, yes?

 

[Gravemind]

Great way to gimp your premium 12tf console after making all the right choices.

In what way is Lockhart going to "gimp" the Series X?

And please for the sake of everyone's sanity please dont tell me you honestly believe it's going to "hold back" games for the Series X. Just dont even bother going there.

 

[-Arcadia-]

To get us back on track, I wonder if the design would differ from the Series X?

Could we see a more traditional console form factor? Nothing will make me buy a Lockhart over a Series X, of course, and I love the tower design, but it’d be fun to see another take on the system.

 

[Agnostic2020]

To get us back on track, I wonder if the design would differ from the Series X?

Could we see a more traditional console form factor? Nothing will make me buy a Lockhart over a Series X, of course, and I love the tower design, but it’d be fun to see another take on the system.

For sure its traditional form factor . I bet more like x1x and not like xsx

 

[Flintty]

To get us back on track, I wonder if the design would differ from the Series X?

Could we see a more traditional console form factor? Nothing will make me buy a Lockhart over a Series X, of course, and I love the tower design, but it’d be fun to see another take on the system.

A few pages back somebody posted a tweet of a white half sized XSX (a cube) and it looked good. I hope they go with that.

edit: Here

 

[Klayzer]

To get us back on track, I wonder if the design would differ from the Series X?

Could we see a more traditional console form factor? Nothing will make me buy a Lockhart over a Series X, of course, and I love the tower design, but it’d be fun to see another take on the system.

Yeah, I'm curious about the form factor for the Lockhart myself.

 

[Agnostic2020]

A few pages back somebody posted a tweet of a white half sized XSX (a cube) and it looked good. I hope they go with that.

edit: Here

This looks cute honestly and better than xsx imo . I m down with it

 

[Gravemind]

I think it would benefit from looking different than the Series X. Although I do like the look of the SX.

If they don't need the cooling system and some other components I'm sure they'll go with a smaller design to differentiate it.

That cube design posted above looks pretty good imo.

 

[Mista]

To get us back on track, I wonder if the design would differ from the Series X?

Could we see a more traditional console form factor? Nothing will make me buy a Lockhart over a Series X, of course, and I love the tower design, but it’d be fun to see another take on the system.

Might be smaller since it doesn't require that space to fit all the hardware

 

[-Arcadia-]

A few pages back somebody posted a tweet of a white half sized XSX (a cube) and it looked good. I hope they go with that.

edit: Here

This is the most adorable thing, and as a GameCube fan, I am delighted, lol

 

[New Yorks Finest]

They could and pull a sony and upclock it... bam 4ft turns into 5.5tf lol

I was gonna say if Sony has secret Kraken sauces than this thing will bump itself to 6-7tfs

But goddamn I never seen so many tech engineers in one place, fn incredible.

 

[Alphagear]

In what way is Lockhart going to "gimp" the Series X?

And please for the sake of everyone's sanity please dont tell me you honestly believe it's going to "hold back" games for the Series X. Just dont even bother going there.

Yes and many do.

Ask the developers.

I'm sure they're looking forward to developing games for a 12tf machine knowing very well it has to run on a 4tf machine too.

You will not see any game taking FULL advantage of the XSX.

Ever wondered why console have better optimised games than pcs?

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

4TF next gen machine when 4.2 and 6TF current gen machines are available?

LOL MS and save me the better efficiency spin!

 

[NT80]

So, stacking in terms of performance, we've got:

Xbox One
PS4
Lockhart
PS4 Pro
Xbox One X
PS5
Xbox Series X

Hmm.

There could be a PS5 Pro in a few years. If Sony have a PS5 and PS5 Pro they'll end up having the power advantage. I wonder what the exclusives will be like in that scenario.

 

[Alphagear]

There could be a PS5 Pro in a few years. If Sony have a PS5 and PS5 Pro they'll end up having the power advantage. I wonder what the exclusives will be like in that scenario.

Exactly.

If Microsoft does release 2 units on launch, what will happen if Sony releases the PS5 pro later.

A 3rd unit? Ridiculous.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Exactly.

If Microsoft does release 2 units on launch, what will happen if Sony releases the PS5 pro later.

A 3rd unit? Ridiculous.

Exactly!

 

[Jigsaah]

If it's $299 for the Lockhart, I'm thinking the XSX might be at least $549. This could be good news for PS5. Recent leaks about lack of launch inventory for the PS5 could make it $500. I'm skeptical that

People throughout the thread have been discussing the merit of having a machine like this and its implications throughout the generation. It's not just about whether people will buy it or not, the poll speaks for itself. The reality is that I doubt you will be buying one either.

If you're incapable of having an adult discussion about it without throwing your toys out the pram then that's fine.



Oh I get that. The question for me is more around the game design side of things. A performance budget doesn't have to be thrown only at resolution. When there is a machine that is 200% weaker than the leading console that needs to be accounted for it's bound to have an impact in some way.

In an ideal world the PS5 is the weakest "next gen" console that needs to be accounted for and then it's just a 20% weaker console potentially holding the show up and not a 200% weaker one.

Today I learned what a "pram" is. Score one for culture.

Btw, completely agree, I'm definitely not getting one, not for me at least. I only drink the finest breastmilks.

 

[VAVA Mk2]

A few pages back somebody posted a tweet of a white half sized XSX (a cube) and it looked good. I hope they go with that.

edit: Here

That's missing something...perhaps a handle

 

[Hendrick's]

If Microsoft does release 2 units on launch, what will happen if Sony releases the PS5 pro later.

A 3rd unit? Ridiculous.

Series XXL

 

[Grinchy]

Series XXL

The most American console to ever exist.

 

[CrashNBurn_281]

Wait so teraflops mean something again? Getting confused. Thought they didnt matter anymore.

 

[DaGwaphics]

To get us back on track, I wonder if the design would differ from the Series X?

Could we see a more traditional console form factor? Nothing will make me buy a Lockhart over a Series X, of course, and I love the tower design, but it’d be fun to see another take on the system.

I'm curious about that also. If they continue with the split MBs (using the same IO board for both), maybe it would be narrower with fan at the side (top when horizontal).

 

[Craig of War]

There are still a lot more people who don't have a 4k tv vs though who do it is like 70 percent of people do not have a 4ktv wile only 30 percent do so a 1080p Lockhart for a cheaper price with an ssd and next gen feature is fine. Microsoft can go for the Kill here Price Series X at 399 and Series S at 199 i know they will lose alot of money in hardware but they can make up for it in software they need to price lower than Sony and just go all in if they want to win Next Gen plus with the covid virus and bad worldwide economy price need to be lower..

 

[Connxtion]

To be fair they said no exclusives for xsx for the first 2 years. So in first 2 years lockhart is not an issue but rather x1 original is the issue.

Lets see what they do after that 2 years .if lockhart becomes the best seller between it and xsx then ms can't discontinue it .

Where folk keep getting 2 years from? I thought it was only the first year there was no XSEX exclusive?

 

[Alphagear]

The fact that Microsoft are even remotely considering a second cheaper unit on launch says alot.

SONY has hit the sweet spot when it comes to price and power.

 

[VAVA Mk2]

The fact that Microsoft are even remotely considering a second cheaper unit on launch says alot.

SONY has hit the sweet spot when it comes to price and power.

We don't know what either costs yet. How can you make that claim?

 

[Alphagear]

We don't know what either costs yet. How can you make that claim?

The 2 units at launch tells you enough.

The XSX is more expensive than the PS5.

Otherwise whats the need for the cheaper unit? Why have it if your more powerful console is the same price or cheaper than the competitor?

 

[Vawn]

So we went from 10.3 to 12TF being a MASSIVE, incomparable leap. And anyone suggesting there are other factors to consider such as SSD speeds is part of Sony Defense Force.

Now, we are at the point where a 4TF Xbox Series S is way more powerful than the 6TF Xbox One X, because there are other factors to consider like the SSD.

Interesting backpedaling going on here.

 

[VAVA Mk2]

So we went from 10.3 to 12TF being a MASSIVE, incomparable leap. And anyone suggesting there are other factors to consider such as SSD speeds is part of Sony Defense Force.

Now, we are at the point where a 4TF Xbox Series S is way more powerful than the 6TF Xbox One X, because there are other factors to consider like the SSD.

Interesting backpedaling going on here.

Who thinks the Series S is so great? I would rather have the GPU of the One X but a Zen 2 CPU as the Jaguar CPU is shite.

 

[93xfan]

As I just replied (*megaton btw ):



Considering Xbox One X would have *more* tflp than Lockhart ... (yes, Lockhart with the more modern chipset, but maybe One X would compensate through sheer power)

the series S would certainly be more powerful

 

[BeardGawd]

I think the idea of Lockhart is incredibly smart for MS. They need to do something bold to get back marketshare from Sony.

But power and price have to be perfect. Looking at the logistics I'm starting to feel those Seagate SSD cards are more for Lockhart than they are for Series X.

This way they can launch Lockhart at a loss, without a Blu-Ray drive and also only a 500GB SSD. Lockhart games will leverage Smart Delivery to mitigate game sizes (not downloading 4k textures and what not). MS can then recoup some of the loss if/when customers decide to upgrade storage. This would be similar to the Xbox 360 Arcade pack back in the day but without the problems of the HDD not being standard.

 

[Alphagear]

So eventually we will come to a scenario where ALL Playstation owners have a 10.2tf console whilst the Majority of Xbox owners will have the cheap 4tf console.

This after all the talk about the power of XSX.

 

[Grinchy]

The fact that Microsoft are even remotely considering a second cheaper unit on launch says alot.

SONY has hit the sweet spot when it comes to price and power.

We don't really know if there's only one PS5 yet. It seems like there is, but they've revealed so little that it's not really guaranteed.

It would really suck if there were two PS5 versions, but it's still possible as of now.

 

[Alphagear]

I think the idea of Lockhart is incredibly smart for MS. They need to do something bold to get back marketshare from Sony.

But power and price have to be perfect. Looking at the logistics I'm starting to feel those Seagate SSD cards are more for Lockhart than they are for Series X.

This way they can launch Lockhart at a loss, without a Blu-Ray drive and also only a 500GB SSD. Lockhart games will leverage Smart Delivery to mitigate game sizes (not downloading 4k textures and what not). MS can then recoup some of the loss if/when customers decide to upgrade storage. This would be similar to the Xbox 360 Arcade pack back in the day but without the problems of the HDD not being standard.

Without a Bluray drive yet play the same games?

Not likely.

 

[-Arcadia-]

So we went from 10.3 to 12TF being a MASSIVE, incomparable leap. And anyone suggesting there are other factors to consider such as SSD speeds is part of Sony Defense Force.

Now, we are at the point where a 4TF Xbox Series S is way more powerful than the 6TF Xbox One X, because there are other factors to consider like the SSD.

Interesting backpedaling going on here.

Is Series X a three year old design (even older from production), based heavily on last generation technology and original Xbox One design decisions (like the Jaguar CPU)?

Your ‘gotcha’, and attempt at console warring, relies on parity between the PS5/Series X situation, and this theoretical Lockhart/Xbox One X situation. Which doesn’t exist.

Judging from this, and frequent posts in the past, it looks like you could use some more compute capability yourself.

 

[lingpanda]

I expect this to primarily be a streaming box.

 

[Kenpachii]

Thanks for telling me what I already know?



Isn't that the main issue here? Devs accounting for a lower-spec machine when designing a game? Series X is capable of a fully path-traced Minecraft at 1080p. At what resolution do you expect a game with such graphical intensity to run on Lockhart? 480p? Or will devs decide to cut back these graphically intensive ideas, so the game doesn't look like complete shit (Witcher on Switch) or run on completely shitty resolutions on Lockhart (RDR2 on Xbox One)?



Games are only scalable when devs have to cater to different SKUs across different platforms. With the mid-gen upgrades all we saw were devs designing their games taking into account toasters released in 2013. That's why even graphically pretty games don't look different between base and premium SKUs. You are only getting resolution boost, which is what will happen with Lockhart and Series X. Here is a video of a tech demo being designed to run on PS4 Pro alone.



Just a taste of what could've been if devs coded to the metal for these premium machines, same untapped potential is going to go to waste on Series X as devs have to account for weaker spec machine first. and maintain some semblance of balance so A) The games don't look as horrid as Witcher does on Switch B) Don't run on sub-par resolutions. At higher end all you're going to get is native 4K resolutions and better RT effects, which is easier to digest through mid-gen refresh than something straight-away in the beginning of a fresh gen.



I don't even know how to respond to this. Good for you I guess?

U don't know it because u keep asking for answers i just provided you.

Mid gen refreshes where builded for exactly that resolution bumps. Dunno why you are so confused by that it did just that.

That PS4 pro demo could run on even xbox one mate without effort. As i explained in my reaction with games can scale back drastically if needed even there website states so.

It's clear you got less experience with this concept but let me tell you another example.

Hellblade was a technical marvel when it got announced, yet runs now on the switch a handheld that doesn't even scale on any performance meter even remotely. And its perfectly playable on it.

The same as xbox one X sits at below low settings with RDR2 with super amounts of jank and input lag to get 4k resolution going if it even hits it. Why? because that's what they focus for, fuck everything but 4k because that's there selling point.

Also raytracing is nothing more then a beyond ultra setting. Good luck with that.

The xbox series S will run whatever game the xbox series X has if they keep the same CPU going and a SSD in that box at reduced complexity, they could even cut down on the memory if they cared for performance wise as i explained in my comment.

To give you some more info.

970gtx 4tflops vs a 1080ti 12tflops ( oc ) i can run ac odyssey at 50+ fps at demanding places at medium to high settings, its 61-65 at 1080p ultra settings at the same resolution.

It's not like they have to run switch witcher 3 resolutions and framerate to get a game to play. Shit is easily scalable.

 

[Armorian]

The fact that Microsoft are even remotely considering a second cheaper unit on launch says alot.

SONY has hit the sweet spot when it comes to price and power.

They most likely didn't, PS5 will cost almost the same to manufacture as XSX, retail price will differ only if they want to take more loss on each unit compared to MS.

So we went from 10.3 to 12TF being a MASSIVE, incomparable leap. And anyone suggesting there are other factors to consider such as SSD speeds is part of Sony Defense Force.

Now, we are at the point where a 4TF Xbox Series S is way more powerful than the 6TF Xbox One X, because there are other factors to consider like the SSD.

Interesting backpedaling going on here.

RDNA2 improved efficiency will put it above X1X GPU, and it will have massively better CPU and faster memory so it's not just the SSD.

Without a Bluray drive yet play the same games?

Not likely.

BD is just used for instaling games and all games are digital since this generation, sa all titles will be playable on XSS.

During first years developers will target near 4K resolutions on PS5 and XSX so XSS won't hold anything back, it's 1/3 of XSX GPU power and it fits perfectly for 1080p (or even more) gaming. Something moght change if things like "DLSS" become popular and devs will start to target 1080p with Ai scaling on PS5/XSX, maybe they will drop XSS resolutions to 720p or something and still get good results (based on Control scaling) or XSS will indeed start holding back better consoles (with less memory for example).

 

[Golgo 13]

Get ready fellas, your going to see terms like “scalable, click of a button, won’t effect game design” from the halo avatars here real soon.

Yep. This is gonna be such a royal pain in the ass for developers and hamstring development pretty significantly across the console space.

I'm sure XSX will have some impressive looking games with 4k/60 but nowhere near what could've been in Microsoft would've been a little braver and just released the XSX, ditched the Lockhart nonsense and gone full bore into next-gen. Sony and/or PC exclusives will be the real show pieces for next-generation gaming. XSX will continue to be third-party king, it seems.

 

[THE DUCK]

It would actually be very interesting to see the sony fanboys backpedal if lockheart was 7 or 8 teraflops for $299, all of sudden 10 teraflops would be a "huge" gap vs 8, even though they say as it stands 10 vs 12 is nothing.

 

[mckmas8808]

Could you imagine IF the cheap Xbox was almost as strong as the PS5! The internet would burn down.

Wouldn't this be bad for MS?

 

[sendit]

It would actually be very interesting to see the sony fanboys backpedal if lockheart was 7 or 8 teraflops for $299, all of sudden 10 teraflops would be a "huge" gap vs 8, even though they say as it stands 10 vs 12 is nothing.

This isn't the point. The Xbox Series X exclusives (also available on PC day 1) will have to share an eco system that has to have games also running on a 4 TF machine.

 

[AveragePhoenix]

Wouldn't this be bad for MS?

How?/Why?

 

[AveragePhoenix]

This isn't the point. The Xbox Series X exclusives (also available on PC day 1) will have to share an eco system that has to have games also running on a 4 TF machine.

GPU scalability is way more "flexible" than CPU/RAM is
The hypothetical Lockhart would run games at 1080p/1440p while the Series X is designed for Raytracing-4k/60

 

[Gravemind]

Yes and many do.

Ask the developers.

I'm sure they're looking forward to developing games for a 12tf machine knowing very well it has to run on a 4tf machine too.

You will not see any game taking FULL advantage of the XSX.

Ever wondered why console have better optimised games than pcs?

As far as we know the CPUs are going to be the same for Lockhart and Series X. Why would core game design suffer on Lockhart? Other than graphics and resolution (which have been confirmed by multiple devs as being completely scalable), how are these games going to be "held back", exactly?

The large majority of the disparity between the 12tf and the 4tf is in graphical processing. Scaling down graphical processes and resolution will significantly reduce the workload of Lockhart's GPU, allowing it to run games perfectly fine with its 4TF. We're talking about 4TF RDNA 2 here. This isn't 2010, and were not talking GCN.

Please give me some examples of how game development is going to be held back by lockhart, because right now you've given me nothing other than your opinion.

 

[DaleinCalgary]

I expect this to primarily be a streaming box.

Interesting comment.

 

[Rightisright]

Man, I just don't get Lockhart.
Ok, if they wanted a cheaper console, just do an all digital version of the XSX.
Or, if they are he'll bent on a cheaper version, have a 6tflop version that's all digital.

 

[Starcheif]

Man, I just don't get Lockhart.
Ok, if they wanted a cheaper console, just do an all digital version of the XSX.
Or, if they are he'll bent on a cheaper version, have a 6tflop version that's all digital.

Lockhart is all digital...right?

 

[MasterCornholio]

Lockhart is all digital...right?

It would give them a lower BOM. But then again some people might not want it due to lacking a drive.

 

[sendit]

Man, I just don't get Lockhart.
Ok, if they wanted a cheaper console, just do an all digital version of the XSX.
Or, if they are he'll bent on a cheaper version, have a 6tflop version that's all digital.

Microsoft is a data driven/for profit company. People don't usually buy 500-600 dollar consoles (which I'm assuming the XSX will be priced at). This is even more apparent with their release of the Xbox One X (even when it was discounted to $299, no one wants it). With that said, the spin and backpedaling in this thread is crazy.