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[hyperbertha]

Not entirely true. We see stuff like Forza Horizon 4, where X was the lead platform, and there’s very different visual settings and features between the platforms.

Likewise, we can expand this analogy to the PC, which such scalability is a fact of life... and just about every modern game comes to that platform, and deals with it just fine.

The thing is last gen base Xbox was the baseline. All games were designed with that baseline in mind. Xbox one X was just a bonus for those wanting a higher resolution.
This gen the baseline is 10 TF, ZEN 2 and 2.5 Gbps SSd. Unless lockhart is keeping the same CPU and SSD, and has a minimum of GPU to manage overheads not related to pure visuals, next gen is going to be held back.

 

[Journey]

I understand the purpose of Lockhart, but hell na, the iPhone C and XR have their purpose too

As for it holding next gen back, I don't agree, games are very scalable now a days, and especially if the CPU in Lockhart is powerful, but the GPU cores are dialed back, then the games can have the same physics and the only thing changing are the visuals getting scaled down to Lockhart, but with Series X and PC getting the top visuals.

 

[Slings and Arrows]

Could be a portable?

I was banging that drum a while back.

IMO, I hope it is portable. It would give Microsoft to compete with PS5 AND Switch.

I know Microsoft completely fucked up Kinect while trying to chase the Wii crowd, but I reckon they could pull it off. Especially as they now have a streaming service.

 

[TTOOLL]

No ray tracing and 1080p seems fine. The CPU seems good enough. This might be the choice of many PS5 owners who are interested in some Xbox exclusives this gen.... also would be a great way to access that backward compatible library.

Do you seriously believe these would be the only differences? Like, for real?

 

[-Arcadia-]

Whats the point of a ‘next gen’ console that is only slightly better than current gen? They’re pulling an iphone se on us, but don’t have the real market to make it successful. Its doa for me.

In theory, the idea is that it would actually be a significant jump over current gen, with modern hardware and software providing more bang for the teraflop.

I love posting this video, because it toppled my perceptions on what could be possible with something like this:

In practice though, we’ll have to see.

 

[AGRacing]

Do you seriously believe these would be the only differences? Like, for real?

Yes, like, tots for realz.

And frame rate I guess. I’m sure it will be up to developers. 4TF RDNA2 is a significant jump over 6TF One X. The CPU was the real weak link in that machine and it will be solved in Lockhart.... that was the bottleneck where framerate was concerned on many titles. 4TF is 1/3 of the power of Series X. 1080p is 1/4 of the resolution of full 4K.

 

[Fun Fanboy]

Whats the point of a ‘next gen’ console that is only slightly better than current gen? They’re pulling an iphone se on us, but don’t have the real market to make it successful. Its doa for me.

There's something called the Xbox Series X as well. People don't have to and are not forced to buy lockhart.

 

[fersnake]

this Lockheart is great, its basically like having a Xbox one x with better cpu and some next gen thing, if you dont want to spend alot next gen.

 

[Bonfires Down]

The 3DS would fail against the Vita because it was too weak. The Switch would fail because it was too weak. Yep, that’s what Gaf said at the time. Now, the Lockhart does not have Nintendo games but there is absolutely a market for it.

 

[-Arcadia-]

The thing is last gen base Xbox was the baseline. All games were designed with that baseline in mind. Xbox one X was just a bonus for those wanting a higher resolution.

The resolution thing isn’t the case. We saw asset differences, effects differences, draw distance changes, etc. It wasn’t just a simple resolution boost. In many cases, these games were customized to both sets of hardware, with first party games being an extreme example of this (X actually being lead platform on Forza Horizon 4).

I do somewhat agree with the baseline, though. In most cases, there was a target, and that target primarily aligned over the S. They were never going to feed the S more than it could handle by scaling back things, and game design stayed in line with that.

It’s a difficult argument to make. I’m trying to push the point that modern game development is very flexible, way more than most people give it credit for, but there are realistic considerations as well, perhaps especially on console.

This gen the baseline is 10 TF, ZEN 2 and 2.5 Gbps SSd. Unless lockhart is keeping the same CPU and SSD, and has a minimum of GPU to manage overheads not related to pure visuals, next gen is going to be held back.

Agreed. Or Lockhart is going to be terrible. There remains a lot to be seen. I’m hoping for the former scenario you mentioned, and a very PC-like paradigm in regards to scalability.

I do feel like both sets of hardware being designed in parallel, and as a ‘team’ from the beginning, rather than a more powerful successor emerging years later, could reap benefits as well.

 

[sendit]

No ray tracing and 1080p seems fine. The CPU seems good enough. This might be the choice of many PS5 owners who are interested in some Xbox exclusives this gen.... also would be a great way to access that backward compatible library.

The choice of PS5 only owners who are interested in some Xbox exclusives is the PC.

 

[Agnostic2020]

my speculation:

lockhard = 36CU at 2 GHz. stable

That would be 10% below ps5 so I doubt

 

[Genx3]

If Devs target 4K 60FPS on PS5 with some Ray Tracing then games on XSX can run the same with better Ray Tracing while Lock Hart runs those games at 1080P 60FPS with lower quality RT.
Everyone wins.

 

[Son_of_Zardoz]

Get ready fellas, your going to see terms like “scalable, click of a button, won’t effect game design” from the halo avatars here real soon.

Let's see if it measures up to the PS5'S SSD IS THE NEW PARADIGM, PS5 IS FASTER/MORE BALANCED THAN THE BRUTE FORCED XSX wave of threads that choked the front page for quite a while. Odds are that it won't.

---

This isn't hard to understand, XSX is the premium version, XSS is the budget version. Same CPU and SSD, so just lower the resolution/graphic effects like PC. I'm all for it if they can maintain pushing the high end with this approach.

I mean have you guys not noticed the shit storm that is decimating the economy at the moment? By the time these systems launch we'll hopefully be well into recovery but there are still going to be tons of people out of work or making less than before. Doesn't seem like a bad plan to offer something cheaper if the production numbers can be there.

As for the X1X, why do people not understand that it can't compete because of the Jag CPU? I love mine but fully expected them to stop producing them well before the new consoles launch. That doesn't affect me or anybody else with one--it'll still play current gen games and have the initial cross-gen releases available.

We are a household with numerous Xboxes so if this is MS's plan I'm all for it. My kids don't care about having the highest end graphics so when the time comes to upgrade their systems, XSS (Lockhart) would save me some serious money and fit that need much better than XSX. I'll definitely get an XSX for my gaming setup though.

Really curious to see how MS handles the X1 going forward. If I were them and could get the numbers working, I would do a new revision of the X1SAD to make it as small as possible and get the price down to $99 to be the super budget entry for GamePass & xCloud (where it could possibly stream the new gen's games) while still having this gen's library. At that price it would be getting into streaming media device range.

 

[Gavon West]

I'm not talking about SX. Specs are specs. I don't care what the reason or market is for lockhart. It's weaker specs are now being defended as enough for next gen. When just a while ago a 10.3TF fastest high end SSD 2.23ghz gpu 3.5ghz zen2 cpu was mocked.


Please don't mention anything about Sony fans. There's an entire discord of grown men who's sole purpose is to spread FUD about PS5.

So don't bring up the Series X cause we know it stomps PS5 but, let's just talk about the lower specs of the Series S because that way PS5 has a chance against it because its a more even playing field. Gotcha...

You may proceed....

 

[MisterXDTV]

Imagine PS5 outselling TWO Xbox consoles combined...

 

[Ten_Fold]

The lockheart will sell at $299, it's basically 6tflops, with possible ps5 shortages, and consumers want the cheapest way into next gen. This could outsell the series X, like I can see them showing the new fable running on the lockheart to wow people. I'm excited.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Imagine PS5 outselling TWO Xbox consoles combined...

Will probably happen with WW totals, so...

The lockheart will sell at $299, it's basically 6tflops, with possible ps5 shortages, and consumers want the cheapest way into next gen. This could outsell the series X, like I can see them showing the new fable running on the lockheart to wow people. I'm excited.

It'll be interesting to see how they market/reveal this, if it happens. If we see two people playing games on different screens on the same stage, I'd expect an "oh, by the way" type deal.

 

[-Arcadia-]

Imagine PS5 outselling TWO Xbox consoles combined...

Funny, but this kind of thing tends to turn good threads (which this is atm) into plastic warrior battlegrounds. Best to stay away from it, except in the meme threads.

 

[icerock]

Some possible math issues with the calculation. I think the APU would be a little smaller than you are figuring. You could half module density on the SSD to save $$$ without changing overall performance. You could drop the BR drive.

APU can only be smaller if they are gimping the CPU and I prefaced in my post, that I'm assuming they are keep the same CPU just under-clocked. Besides there's already a NAVI card in 5500XT which houses 22CUs, its die size is 158mm2. So I'm taking that into account while making adjustments for Lockhart SoC. The difference between the two SoC on die size isn't going to be the tune of triple figures. It'll very likely be in the ballpark I mentioned. There was a great post on REE by Liabe Brave which I can't find or I would've linked it to you, the amount of space each CUs take on the die is very small. So scaling up and down doesn't save or cost as much money as many seem to think.

In theory, the idea is that it would actually be a significant jump over current gen, with modern hardware and software providing more bang for the teraflop.

I love posting this video, because it toppled my perceptions on what could be possible with something like this:

In practice though, we’ll have to see.

That video is utterly pointless because they are bench-marking current-gen games using a RDNA1 GPU. Almost as pointless as Richard overclocking a 5700 and drawing inference that higher clocks aren't beneficial for NAVI cards, ignoring the fact that they are bandwidth/power constrained. All the next-gen consoles are based on RDNA2 architecture, which we still don't know a great deal about.

 

[DaGwaphics]

APU can only be smaller if they are gimping the CPU and I prefaced in my post, that I'm assuming they are keep the same CPU just under-clocked. Besides there's already a NAVI card in 5500XT which houses 22CUs, its die size is 158mm2. So I'm taking that into account while making adjustments for Lockhart SoC. The difference between the two SoC on die size isn't going to be the tune of triple figures. It'll very likely be in the ballpark I mentioned. There was a great post on REE by Liabe Brave which I can't find or I would've linked it to you, the amount of space each CUs take on the die is very small. So scaling up and down doesn't save or cost as much money as many seem to think.

We'll have to agree to disagree. We've seen a 40cu Navi at 250mm2 vs. a 56cu (4 disabled) part with a CPU at 360mm2. So, max only 110mm2 over the navi for the CPU and that disregards the CU increase. So, let's take that 158mm2 GPU and add the 110mm2 to that for a total of 268mm2. Assuming that the lockhart chip is narrower and faster than the 5500XT, 260mm2 or even slightly less is definitely on the table.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Microsoft has always invested in graphics

 

[icerock]

We'll have to agree to disagree. We've seen a 40cu Navi at 250mm2 vs. a 56cu (4 disabled) part with a CPU at 360mm2. So, max only 110mm2 over the navi for the CPU and that disregards the CU increase. So, let's take that 158mm2 GPU and add the 110mm2 to that for a total of 268mm2. Assuming that the lockhart chip is narrower and faster than the 5500XT, 260mm2 or even slightly less is definitely on the table.

Erm, you cannot figure out die size of an APU by extrapolating from a PC GPU die. It's not that simple. APUs are much more complicated, see the chart below to understand what I am getting at.

Spoiler

Keep in mind the estimates of WGP were on the higher side, they are smaller in RDNA2.

 

[gamerforever]

The lockheart will sell at $299, it's basically 6tflops, with possible ps5 shortages, and consumers want the cheapest way into next gen. This could outsell the series X, like I can see them showing the new fable running on the lockheart to wow people. I'm excited.

It’s not next gen though.

 

[Fun Fanboy]

It’s not next gen though.

Lockhart is a next gen console. Not sure how you don't think it is.

 

[CasperDarling]

A poll on GAF on Xbox? yeah. I'd trust that poll on what people want from Xbox.

Again. XSX games won't be hampered by Lockhart. Just like CPU games aren't shit because of my low powered PC. It's really easy.

Curious. Are you an Xbox fan? Are you buying the console? The series X? Because either way. There's nothing to worry about. The games won't be messed up because of base models. Just like games for the Pro and 1X weren't messed up.

An Xbox poll on GAF is the equivalent of a Trump approval poll on era.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Erm, you cannot figure out die size of an APU by extrapolating from a PC GPU die. It's not that simple. APUs are much more complicated, see the chart below to understand what I am getting at.

Spoiler

Keep in mind the estimates of WGP were on the higher side, they are smaller in RDNA2.

What I was extrapolating is that there is a 90mm2 difference in surface area between a 40CU part and a 22CU part. Obviously, some things have been adjusted for the console APU (the chart posted would result in the XSX GPU being about 50mm2 bigger than it is in reality). Keep in mind it won't be just the CUs getting cut, I would expect that we are looking at also losing 4 32bit memory controllers. I expect we'd move from two shader engines to just one, and so on.

 

[Kokoloko85]

I bet it will be more like 7-8tflops.....

 

[MiyazakiHatesKojima]

If its 4 TF, consider it to be Dead on Arrival lol

 

[DaGwaphics]

I bet it will be more like 7-8tflops.....

Would be problematic to market. You'd basically be looking at 4K lite vs. 4K standard. If you gave the system that much power at 1080p or 1440p, it's the more powerful of the two consoles. Would be a bit odd.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

I bet it will be more like 7-8tflops.....

If it’s 7ish TFLOPS and it’s sold at 299 then I could see a place for it, for the budget gamers and/or casuals. I tend to think the 4TF leak is true tho

 

[Kenpachii]

If its 4 TF, consider it to be Dead on Arrival lol

Not really, 4k is killing those next gen boxes straight out of the gate. a 4tflop rnda2 gpu will be fine enough for 1080p the same settings most likely as there 12 tflop brother. 60 fps ultra settings 4k is what xbox x series does.

 

[Agnostic2020]

I bet it will be more like 7-8tflops.....

Its not .we have seen the 4tf number enough that it is for sure real.

 

[Jtibh]

Let's see if it measures up to the PS5'S SSD IS THE NEW PARADIGM, PS5 IS FASTER/MORE BALANCED THAN THE BRUTE FORCED XSX wave of threads that choked the front page for quite a while. Odds are that it won't.

---

This isn't hard to understand, XSX is the premium version, XSS is the budget version. Same CPU and SSD, so just lower the resolution/graphic effects like PC. I'm all for it if they can maintain pushing the high end with this approach.

I mean have you guys not noticed the shit storm that is decimating the economy at the moment? By the time these systems launch we'll hopefully be well into recovery but there are still going to be tons of people out of work or making less than before. Doesn't seem like a bad plan to offer something cheaper if the production numbers can be there.

As for the X1X, why do people not understand that it can't compete because of the Jag CPU? I love mine but fully expected them to stop producing them well before the new consoles launch. That doesn't affect me or anybody else with one--it'll still play current gen games and have the initial cross-gen releases available.

We are a household with numerous Xboxes so if this is MS's plan I'm all for it. My kids don't care about having the highest end graphics so when the time comes to upgrade their systems, XSS (Lockhart) would save me some serious money and fit that need much better than XSX. I'll definitely get an XSX for my gaming setup though.

Really curious to see how MS handles the X1 going forward. If I were them and could get the numbers working, I would do a new revision of the X1SAD to make it as small as possible and get the price down to $99 to be the super budget entry for GamePass & xCloud (where it could possibly stream the new gen's games) while still having this gen's library. At that price it would be getting into streaming media device range.

Will be well in recovery?? Hahaha
Just today WHO stated that only 2 to 3percent of the population had the virus unlike some idiots claiming 60 percent.

Nah nah nah there will be no recovery for a very long time.

Therefor anyone thinks this will cost $299 hahaha is asleep.


Back on topic, if lockhart rockhard becomes a hit the xsextexmex will have no attraction.
And someone pointed it out here that lockhard will be a good option for other plattform owners who just want to play some of the exclusives and some back comp games.
Therefor i can see rockhard becoming a second console next to ps5 in many households.

I think its a great and big rockhard move from microsoft.

Though i dont want sony to follow this model. They should really stay focused on ps5 as a baseline and just pump out games left and right.

So in closing for me next gen will be ps5 primary and rockhard secondary both day one.

Fantastic times.

Oh and fuck corona.

 

[icerock]

If its 4 TF, consider it to be Dead on Arrival lol

MS are not going to market it as a 4TF console, in fact the term 'teraflops' won't be thrown about when it comes to discussion of this machine by their PR. They'll simply refer it as cheapest entry into next-gen, made for budget conscious/1080p gamers.

Not really, 4k is killing those next gen boxes straight out of the gate. a 4tflop rnda2 gpu will be fine enough for 1080p the same settings most likely as there 12 tflop brother. 60 fps ultra settings 4k is what xbox x series does.

Achieving 58fps for current gen games =/= achieving same for next-gen games. This is the crux of issue, nobody is doubting it as a capable machine for running current-gen games at high fidelity. The main concern is how much will the specs of this machine affect the thinking of game-devs when designing a next-gen game from the ground up. Even if it can manage to run next-gen games at decent frames for first few years, what sort of fidelity we can expect to see? What about the latter part of the gen where tools get better and devs push these consoles more, what sort of resolution will this machine drop to? Can you legitimately see a 4TF machine lasting next 7 years?

 

[Kenpachii]

MS are not going to market it as a 4TF console, in fact the term 'teraflops' won't be thrown about when it comes to discussion of this machine by their PR. They'll simply refer it as cheapest entry into next-gen, made for budget conscious/1080p gamers.



Achieving 58fps for current gen games =/= achieving same for next-gen games. This is the crux of issue, nobody is doubting it as a capable machine for running current-gen games at high fidelity. The main concern is how much will the specs of this machine affect the thinking of game-devs when designing a next-gen game from the ground up. Even if it can manage to run next-gen games at decent frames for first few years, at what sort of fidelity we can expect to see? What about the latter part of the gen where tools get better and devs push these consoles more, what sore of resolution will this machine drop to? Can you legitimately see a 4TF machine lasting next 7 years?

Architectures are the same, they get the same advantages no matter what. It's not a issue.

Also if they drop the resolutions on xbox series X it's nothing to worry about. To give you a idea.

Value's are different but to give a easy example.
720p = 1m pixels
1080p = 2m pixels
1440p = 4m pixels
4k = 8m pixels



Low vs ultra = 2x performance increase.

Even if xbox series x runs the game at 1080p, the 4tflop gpu will just run the game at low settings 720p to compensate.

Games are heavily scalable these days, u can already see this with games running for the switch as extreme example. A game i play at 1080p ultra settings ac odyssey with a 1080ti heavily overclocked, can be equalled with a 970gtx at low settings 900p with a way older architecture and a bit of a resolution drop.

970gtx 1080p gets teh same performance as a 1080ti at 4k in games. 4k is a resource hog and that's why i said already from day one that those next gen consoles are weak as the GPU will shit the brick straight out of the gate because 4k.

Also the PS5 won't be able to run gears of war 5 at ultra on 4k without already sacrifices, unless they cap it at 30. Welcome to 4k land where gpu's die.

What they should have done was focus on 1080p with those boxes, and it would actually be a next gen leap forwards. But they refused.

 

[gamerforever]

Lockhart is a next gen console. Not sure how you don't think it is.

Next gen begins only when sony says so.

 

[stopitgetsomehelp]

Next gen begins only when sony says so.

OK, stop it. Get some help.

 

[Fun Fanboy]

Next gen begins only when sony says so.

I'm going to need a second job for that PS5!!

 

[kiphalfton]

In the past, each generation advanced technologically... however, having a super weak console just means devs are going to create games for the lowest common denominator. Thanks Xbox Lockhart for holding back next gen!

 

[Deleted member 775630]

4TF is more than enough for the goal we currently think it's created for. 1080p gaming.

 

[Max_Po]

4 ? Lockfart confirmed...

I assumed that it will be as good as XbxOne X with better CPU...

LOCKFART

 

[tryDEATH]

I expect the XSS to be over 6TF with SmartShift technology, 12GB of RAM, 500GB NVMe, and no disk drive for $300. I will be a CBR 4K/30~60 machine for next generation.

It will basically be an evolution on the One X. Many of the numbers stay the same, only new technology and more advanced iterations, such as Zen2, GDDR6, and a NVMe are introduced.

It should be a very enticing machine for people that just want to step into the next generation a friendly price point. You end up getting 50% or so less in performance for a 40% price cut.

 

[gamerforever]

I'm going to need a second job for that PS5!!

$599, and ridge racer

 

[CuteFaceJay]

So a system that's weaker than the one X?

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

So a system that's weaker than the one X?

I think technically the RDNA2 architecture makes it leaps and bounds ahead of the One X GPU, and I assume it will have the Zen 2 core CPU.

Again, this is likely just offered as an alternative, not as their flagship, which is obviously the XsX. If it’s meant as a 1080p machine then I can see it being alright

 

[Patterson]

I wonder how developers feel about supporting Xbox One S, Xbox One X, Xbox Lockhart, Xbox Series X.... last place systems. I can't imagine they're too thrilled and it's just muddying up the waters.

More important systems like Playstation and Switch are more attractive because more money can be made on those with less fuss.

 

[mckmas8808]

LOL at people like that one dev that on GAF that said it'll be the said game just press one button and everything goes from 4K to 1080p. WE TOLD YOU!

4TF is more than enough for the goal we currently think it's created for. 1080p gaming.

It's not. And it could possibly hold XSX games back.

 

[icerock]

Architectures are the same, they get the same advantages no matter what. It's not a issue.

Also if they drop the resolutions on xbox series X it's nothing to worry about. To give you a idea.

Value's are different but to give a easy example.
720p = 1m pixels
1080p = 2m pixels
1440p = 4m pixels
4k = 8m pixels

Thanks for telling me what I already know?

Even if xbox series x runs the game at 1080p, the 4tflop gpu will just run the game at low settings 720p to compensate.

Isn't that the main issue here? Devs accounting for a lower-spec machine when designing a game? Series X is capable of a fully path-traced Minecraft at 1080p. At what resolution do you expect a game with such graphical intensity to run on Lockhart? 480p? Or will devs decide to cut back these graphically intensive ideas, so the game doesn't look like complete shit (Witcher on Switch) or run on completely shitty resolutions on Lockhart (RDR2 on Xbox One)?

Games are heavily scalable these days

Games are only scalable when devs have to cater to different SKUs across different platforms. With the mid-gen upgrades all we saw were devs designing their games taking into account toasters released in 2013. That's why even graphically pretty games don't look different between base and premium SKUs. You are only getting resolution boost, which is what will happen with Lockhart and Series X. Here is a video of a tech demo being designed to run on PS4 Pro alone.



Just a taste of what could've been if devs coded to the metal for these premium machines, same untapped potential is going to go to waste on Series X as devs have to account for weaker spec machine first. and maintain some semblance of balance so A) The games don't look as horrid as Witcher does on Switch B) Don't run on sub-par resolutions. At higher end all you're going to get is native 4K resolutions and better RT effects, which is easier to digest through mid-gen refresh than something straight-away in the beginning of a fresh gen.

Also the PS5 won't be able to run gears of war 5 at ultra on 4k without already sacrifices, unless they cap it at 30. Welcome to 4k land.

I don't even know how to respond to this. Good for you I guess?

 

[Iced Arcade]

They could and pull a sony and upclock it... bam 4ft turns into 5.5tf lol