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[mckmas8808]

It's strange that people are worried about developers having to target both 12tf and 4tf. Modern game engines are super scalable, just look at Switch. Also it's clear that Anaconda is 4K machine and Lockhart is 1080p. CPU will be the same, ram will be possibly smaller because of smaller textures, ssd possibly same speed but smaller. And that's all. What problem do you see? When only gpu is X time smaller, you need to lower resolution and voila. No need to sweat

Because some of us want TRUE next-gen games that aren't compromised. The Switch runs 2% of current-gen games and they look like straight POO. To me, they don't really even count.

 

[Fun Fanboy]

I love how next gen games are now compromised. Lol, can't make this stuff up.

 

[Nikana]

This thread shows not only how disconnected the so called hardcore gamers are with the reality of software and how it works but also exposes just how little they know about game development and what it's actually like.

 

[mckmas8808]

As long as ssd and cpu are same many issues will be solved.

Some game designs will be affected as designing a game for 12 tf gpu base is way different than designing a game for 4 tf one as base but that's a separate topic and is about game design and not graphics .

But "HOW" can the SSD and CPU be the exact same AND Lockhart cost $299 compared to XSX being $500-$550?

 

[Daniel_Mallorca1985]

 

[Nikana]

But "HOW" can the SSD and CPU be the exact same AND Lockhart cost $299 compared to XSX being $500-$550?

By cutting back on the most expensive silicone in the box. This isn't hard.

 

[Agnostic2020]

It will 299 .it won't be 349 imo

 

[Mistershine.]

I'm not interested in series s but, damn, I would buy the shit out of that.

 

[Agnostic2020]

By cutting back on the most expensive silicone in the box. This isn't hard.

Ram and ssd are the some of the most expensive things in the consoles

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

I think CPU will be 1:1 the same, RAM speed also but it will be less than 16GB because of lower quality textures because of 1080p, also SSD will be the same speed but I think only 500GB(smaller textures again). Of course GPU will be 4TF. Not to mention that it will be easier to cool so less copper and aluminum, less plastic also as I think it will be significantly smaller. Let's also go with driveless and I think they will sell it for 100-150USD less than Series X

I basically agree here but the pricing problem is a very fine line and I can't see how Microsoft can break even/make profit on it (which they'll need to do if they expect it to sell gangbusters) while pricing it low enough. My estimate for the BOM of XSS comes in at $294 without BD drive and $314 with before shipping/packaging/distro/retail cut etc.

One S 500GB came in at $299 with One X 1TB following a few months later at $499 so a $200 gap. Either XSS specs are cut much further than GPU/SSD size or the price is higher than $299. Go too high and then most will just go for XSX/PS5 assuming one/both are $499. If one of these is lower than $499....

 

[Daniel_Mallorca1985]

It will 299 .it won't be 349 imo

I'm not interested in series s but, damn, I would buy the shit out of that.

 

[Fun Fanboy]

Can't be more than 299... you can't sell that at 349 if PS5 for some reason is at 399. No way.

 

[DaGwaphics]

I basically agree here but the pricing problem is a very fine line and I can't see how Microsoft can break even/make profit on it (which they'll need to do if they expect it to sell gangbusters) while pricing it low enough. My estimate for the BOM of XSS comes in at $294 without BD drive and $314 with before shipping/packaging/distro/retail cut etc.

One S 500GB came in at $299 with One X 1TB following a few months later at $499 so a $200 gap. Either XSS specs are cut much further than GPU/SSD size or the price is higher than $299. Go too high and then most will just go for XSX/PS5 assuming one/both are $499. If one of these is lower than $499....

Revenue is a bit different going into this gen than last, digital sales have taken off, recurring subscription revenue has increased. Short-term subsidization for long-term gains appears to be the order of the day. People overstate these losses on both sides of the isle. Say, you build the first 10m units losing $100 each, that's $1B, but how much of that is offset by increased software/subscription revenue over the life of those 10m systems (especially true for an all-digital box).

 

[Mistershine.]

What really bothers me about that tweet is the fact it should say either "how the console will look" or "what the console will look like", not "how the console will look like".

 

[mckmas8808]

Why does Nvidia bother with a 2060 when they sell a 2080 ti? Because price point matters on "non-essential" purchases.

Xbox has moved in a PC like direction with all games appearing on PC. 95% of third-party games also appear on PC. Why be tied to this ecosystem via software without taking advantage of the biggest benefit of the PC platform (variable costs of entry)? Having 2 skus (even 3 or 4) with specific hardware is still nothing like PC where an endless combination of components are possible.

PCs aren't the same as consoles. We have to stop equating what happens in the PC space to the console space. They are different. And they are different for a reason. Even many of the console gamers act differently than PC gamers. Going "download only" for console gamers came many years after PC gamers were doing it.

Plus if Xbox wants to be more like the PC, they are only going partially the way there and are missing the best parts of being a PC.

well, let's just wait and see then? as soon as the games arrive we will see the difference, so relax. no need to be so frustrated. relax. it's just a plastic box.

I'm pretty sure that the difference will be huge though, and much larger than Xbox one vs ps4 in this gen, but again let's wait and see.

I'm not frustrated at all. We are all having a normal discussion about next-gen in here.

 

[Nikana]

Ram and ssd are the some of the most expensive things in the consoles

And less of each along with a much smaller GPU CU count with less cooling needed along with with less casing and less board space. It all adds up.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Revenue is a bit different going into this gen than last, digital sales have taken off, recurring subscription revenue has increased. Short-term subsidization for long-term gains appears to be the order of the day. People overstate these losses on both sides of the isle. Say, you build the first 10m units losing $100 each, that's $1B, but how much of that is offset by increased software/subscription revenue over the life of those 10m systems (especially true for an all-digital box).

Sure that works with premium SKU buyers of XSX as that demographic buy 5-10 games a year and microtransactions. The demographic for XSS will mostly be those that buy COD/FIFA once a year and buy/sell used games. Losing a relatively large sum of money per unit can't be a good business decision?

Also having two SKUs complicates an already complicated balance of price/specs. Never mind throwing market leading competition into the mix.

All I know for sure is this is all fascinating to see unfold. Maybe Sony come out of nowhere with a second SKU or other surprise themselves?

 

[DaGwaphics]

PCs aren't the same as consoles. We have to stop equating what happens in the PC space to the console space. They are different. And they are different for a reason. Even many of the console gamers act differently than PC gamers. Going "download only" for console gamers came many years after PC gamers were doing it.

Consoles literally are PCs at this point, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. The biggest advantage of consoles is the limited scope of the hardware, having a couple options doesn't destroy this advantage (having a 100 options would, but no one will do that with console).

 

[yurinka]

I think it doesn't make sense to release Lockhart when they already have XBO S and X, consoles that already going to run the MS Series X games for the first two years.

To release Series X already costs a ton of money to MS. MS 'exclusive' devs already going to have a lot of work porting/testing/certificating their games to X, S, Series X and PC. And even worse for multi devs that would add PS5 (and PS4 if crossgen) to that.

I don't see the point of adding another SKU to the list. I think it would be a bad move for everyone, specially for players because Lockhart would be the minimum common denominator, which is most devs use as base platform, for next gen games so it would hurt their visuals and design.

 

[Nikana]

PCs aren't the same as consoles. We have to stop equating what happens in the PC space to the console space. They are different. And they are different for a reason. Even many of the console gamers act differently than PC gamers. Going "download only" for console gamers came many years after PC gamers were doing it.

Plus if Xbox wants to be more like the PC, they are only going partially the way there and are missing the best parts of being a PC.



I'm not frustrated at all. We are all having a normal discussion about next-gen in here.

The markets are different but the point being made is that you can equate the business strategy the same.

The 2060 has Ray tracing support and supports all of the same things the 2080 does at $300 vs $800.

The difference is the manufacturing costs to get from a 2060 to 2080 goes up exponentially the more silicone you have to cram into a die space. The same applies to all silicone. Which will apply to series X vs Series S.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Sure that works with premium SKU buyers of XSX as that demographic buy 5-10 games a year and microtransactions. The demographic for XSS will mostly be those that buy COD/FIFA once a year and buy/sell used games. Losing a relatively large sum of money per unit can't be a good business decision?

The COD/FIFA buyers probably need that online component, so figure them in for $5/mo over 5 or more years ($300). Plus they'll need to purchase those games from the Xbox store (assuming system is all digital), making MS the retailer and licensor for these sales increasing revenue further. The real hope, I'm sure, is to convince these gamers to spend $10/mo ($600 over 5 years) more for GP and play that library of games without spending $60 a pop. That would be the idea, anyway.

 

[mckmas8808]

Revenue is a bit different going into this gen than last, digital sales have taken off, recurring subscription revenue has increased. Short-term subsidization for long-term gains appears to be the order of the day. People overstate these losses on both sides of the isle. Say, you build the first 10m units losing $100 each, that's $1B, but how much of that is offset by increased software/subscription revenue over the life of those 10m systems (especially true for an all-digital box).

There's NO way shareholders care about what you are saying here. Technically you are correct, but shareholders will not share this thought process.

Consoles literally are PCs at this point, so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. The biggest advantage of consoles is the limited scope of the hardware, having a couple options doesn't destroy this advantage (having a 100 options would, but no one will do that with console).

No they aren't actually. That's the thing some here on GAF will have to understand. Yes, they share parts, but there are so many customizations hardware-wise plus software-wise that makes consoles different than PCs. Maybe for MS they are closer to PCs due to the underlining software that's used, but for Sony that'll be a no dawg.

There are clear lines of demarcation that separate the PS5 from a PC.

 

[DaGwaphics]

There's NO way shareholders care about what you are saying here. Technically you are correct, but shareholders will not share this thought process.

??? Look at the investors that throw money at Netflix. Heavy upfront investment in the hopes of steady recurrent revenue is the holy grail in silicon valley. Misguided or otherwise, that's the way it goes.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

The COD/FIFA buyers probably need that online component, so figure them in for $5/mo over 5 or more years ($300). Plus they'll need to purchase those games from the Xbox store (assuming system is all digital), making MS the retailer and licencor for these sales increasing revenue further. The real hope, I'm sure, is to convince these gamers to spend $10/mo ($600 over 5 years) more for GP and play that library of games without spending $60 a pop. That would be the idea, anyway.

Let's see where Microsoft go with this. I feel right now the specs might be pared back more than currently thought.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Let's see where Microsoft go with this. I feel right now the specs might be pared back more than currently thought.

Certainly possible, we'll have wait and see.

 

[Elenchus]

Enjoy your 12tf monster with no games

Think you’re forgetting something. Enjoy Godfall.

 

[Durask]

I think we need more Xbox units out there for every market niche,
I propose:

Xbox Series X - 12 Tf
Xbox Series X Pro - 14 Tf
Xbox Series Xa - 4 Tf
Xbox Series Xr - 7.5 Tf

 

[mckmas8808]

Certainly possible, we'll have wait and see.

Another issue for MS (if Lockhart is real) is that it muddies the waters as far as what "Console Power" actually means. Example.......

How do you explain to the average consumer that 4TFs is greater than 6TFs? For years they've been pushing XBX as the most powerful console with the 6 TF tagline on everything. Now all of a sudden 4 TFs is better than 6 TFs? The average gamer will be extremely confused as to how and why that is.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Too bad you wont be able to experience true next-gen on a 9TF console at all

Enjoy your 12tf monster with no games

 

[Goliathy]

Because some of use want TRUE next-gen games that aren't compromised. The Switch runs 2% of current-gen games and they look like straight POO. To me, they don't really even count.

But "HOW" can the SSD and CPU be the exact same AND Lockhart cost $299 compared to XSX being $500-$550?

PCs aren't the same as consoles. We have to stop equating what happens in the PC space to the console space. They are different. And they are different for a reason. Even many of the console gamers act differently than PC gamers. Going "download only" for console gamers came many years after PC gamers were doing it.

Plus if Xbox wants to be more like the PC, they are only going partially the way there and are missing the best parts of being a PC.



I'm not frustrated at all. We are all having a normal discussion about next-gen in here.

There's NO way shareholders care about what you are saying here. Technically you are correct, but shareholders will not share this thought process.



No they aren't actually. That's the thing some here on GAF will have to understand. Yes, they share parts, but there are so many customizations hardware-wise plus software-wise that makes consoles different than PCs. Maybe for MS they are closer to PCs due to the underlining software that's used, but for Sony that'll be a no dawg.

There are clear lines of demarcation that separate the PS5 from a PC.

Another issue for MS (if Lockhart is real) is that it muddies the waters as far as what "Console Power" actually means. Example.......

How do you explain to the average consumer that 4TFs is greater than 6TFs? For years they've been pushing XBX as the most powerful console with the 6 TF tagline on everything. Now all of a sudden 4 TFs is better than 6 TFs? The average gamer will be extremely confused as to how and why that is.

dude, relax. are you having a meltdown or whats happening? 5 posts of you in a single PAGE! are you ok?
why are you even so concerned about xbox? why do you feel the need to spam so much and attack everyone here? lol relax

btw: we don't even know if it exists, we don't know how much it will costs, we don't even know if it will ever be released.
lets just wait until it gets released before we act so damn concerned about it, ok? its just a plastic box, no need to have a meltdown

 

[Nikana]

Another issue for MS (if Lockhart is real) is that it muddies the waters as far as what "Console Power" actually means. Example.......

How do you explain to the average consumer that 4TFs is greater than 6TFs? For years they've been pushing XBX as the most powerful console with the 6 TF tagline on everything. Now all of a sudden 4 TFs is better than 6 TFs? The average gamer will be extremely confused as to how and why that is.

The mental gymnastics is amazing here is astounding. But I am the victim for responding.

 

[-Arcadia-]

Another issue for MS (if Lockhart is real) is that it muddies the waters as far as what "Console Power" actually means. Example.......

How do you explain to the average consumer that 4TFs is greater than 6TFs? For years they've been pushing XBX as the most powerful console with the 6 TF tagline on everything. Now all of a sudden 4 TFs is better than 6 TFs? The average gamer will be extremely confused as to how and why that is.

A problem for MS, but not for me.

The more gamers understand teraflops as a general guide, and understand that there is more at play, the better.

That’s a historic failing, though. Gamers almost always go for the pretty, big, singular number, without really understanding the nuance that goes into these things. I remember when the big thing to compare was polygon count, even though Sony and Microsoft were offering theoretical maximums never achievable in-game.

 

[Durask]

That’s a historic failing, though. Gamers almost always go for the pretty, big, singular number, without really understanding the nuance that goes into these things. I remember when the big thing to compare was polygon count, even though Sony and Microsoft were offering theoretical maximums never achievable in-game.

Hey you forgot the bits! I think it stopped at 64 bits with Nintendo 64.

Also, of course, megapixels for cameras. This one is immortal I think.

 

[DaGwaphics]

A problem for MS, but not for me.

The more gamers understand teraflops as a general guide, and understand that there is more at play, the better.

That’s a historic failing, though. Gamers almost always go for the pretty, big, singular number, without really understanding the nuance that goes into these things. I remember when the big thing to compare was polygon count, even though Sony and Microsoft were offering theoretical maximums never achievable in-game.

I doubt they will actively work to brand the "S" series as a 4TF machine, that will just be a number on a spec sheet. XSX is a different matter, that 12TF number is a marketing winner for them, they will actively use that.

 

[FireFly]

But "HOW" can the SSD and CPU be the exact same AND Lockhart cost $299 compared to XSX being $500-$550?

The 8 Zen cores are only about 70mm^2, out of the 360 mm^2 Scarlett die. We don't know the manufacturing cost of the SSD, but they could still cut capacity to save money.

Apart from that, they will have a smaller die which will put out less heat, meaning less cooling is needed and they can go with a smaller case and cheaper PSU. They don't need to go with the super expensive memory the XSX has and they can cut the capacity to 12 GB. Finally they can remove the blue ray drive.

 

[Magic Carpet]

If Microsoft can demo a 3rd party next gen game running side by side Anaconda and Lockhart. Will that finally convince everyone?

Ive got one friend that will only buy the cheapest console after his 360 broke. He skipped this current gen. Im trying to convince him to wait for the Series S. No way is he plunking down 500 or more. Otherwise he may just replace his 360. He also only has a 1080p tv. I suspect there are millions of others just like him out there.

 

[Fun Fanboy]

dude, relax. are you having a meltdown or whats happening? 5 posts of you in a single PAGE! are you ok?
why are you even so concerned about xbox? why do you feel the need to spam so much and attack everyone here? lol relax

btw: we don't even know if it exists, we don't know how much it will costs, we don't even know if it will ever be released.
lets just wait until it gets released before we act so damn concerned about it, ok? its just a plastic box, no need to have a meltdown

"true" next gen games are already compromised. Haven't you heard? He's back from the future to warn us how shitty it's going to be. All the while probably not even owning a next gen Xbox!

 

[-Arcadia-]

I doubt they will actively work to brand the "S" series as a 4TF machine, that will just be a number on a spec sheet. XSX is a different matter, that 12TF number is a marketing winner for them, they will actively use that.

I think what he means is that casual-leaning gamers will see, or hear that it’s 4TF somewhere on the internet, and be like wtf, causing PR problems for them.

I would imagine that seeing results well in excess of what One X could pull, will quickly change minds though. The proof is in the pudding.

 

[John254]

Another issue for MS (if Lockhart is real) is that it muddies the waters as far as what "Console Power" actually means. Example.......

How do you explain to the average consumer that 4TFs is greater than 6TFs? For years they've been pushing XBX as the most powerful console with the 6 TF tagline on everything. Now all of a sudden 4 TFs is better than 6 TFs? The average gamer will be extremely confused as to how and why that is.

You don't need to. Just don't talk about power. Talk about "this can play next gen games and this can't" and focus on fact that this is cheapest entry to next gen.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Wonder if its fans will be as quick to point out intersection engines are tied to CU count

 

[Gavon West]

You don't need to. Just don't talk about power. Talk about "this can play next gen games and this can't" and focus on fact that this is cheapest entry to next gen.

Agree

 

[geordiemp]

Sure that works with premium SKU buyers of XSX as that demographic buy 5-10 games a year and microtransactions. The demographic for XSS will mostly be those that buy COD/FIFA once a year and buy/sell used games. Losing a relatively large sum of money per unit can't be a good business decision?

Also having two SKUs complicates an already complicated balance of price/specs. Never mind throwing market leading competition into the mix.

All I know for sure is this is all fascinating to see unfold. Maybe Sony come out of nowhere with a second SKU or other surprise themselves?

You have a good point, why pass on all the subsidies to lockart when those buyers dont spend anything, and why price XSX high when these are the big spenders on software.

Probabkly because the XSX users will buy it anyway, so may as well make it US$ 600.

The Lockart buyers are easily swayed, and they will need the cheap price, still think Lockart will be US$ 400 IMO, and Ps5 500 or 550 US$.

SSD / RDNA2 and GDDR6 aint cheap.

 

[Gavon West]

The problem with a cheaper alternative is that its not seen as a next gen console. Microsoft are trying to box sony in, but all they are doing is creating a podium for sony. Lockhart and series x will be doa for different reasons. I suspect sony will do a ps2 - delay it until spring 2021, and people will wait for it rather than waste their money on the xbox.

I'd actually consider placing a wager on this. You in?

I think the Series X and S are going to do much better than people expect. Neither will be DOA.

 

[gamerforever]

I'd actually consider placing a wager on this. You in?

I think the Series X and S are going to do much better than people expect. Neither will be DOA.

They will be doa

I'd actually consider placing a wager on this. You in?

I think the Series X and S are going to do much better than people expect. Neither will be DOA.

Yes, but how to define doa?

 

[Nikana]

They will be doa


Yes, but how to define doa?

I want in.

 

[mckmas8808]

The mental gymnastics is amazing here is astounding. But I am the victim for responding.

Be smarter than this. I'm talking about the marketing. We of course know why a 4TF Lockhart is better than a 6 TF XBX.

A problem for MS, but not for me.

The more gamers understand teraflops as a general guide, and understand that there is more at play, the better.

That’s a historic failing, though. Gamers almost always go for the pretty, big, singular number, without really understanding the nuance that goes into these things. I remember when the big thing to compare was polygon count, even though Sony and Microsoft were offering theoretical maximums never achievable in-game.

The bolded is true. But doesn't that also give credence as to why Sony's PS5 can be viewed as equally powerful as the XSX? Like why market the XSX as the most powerful next-gen console, when you have a 4TF Lockhart console that plays the same games as the stronger XSX brother? But like you said this is a problem for MS, not us gamers to explain.

The 8 Zen cores are only about 70mm^2, out of the 360 mm^2 Scarlett die. We don't know the manufacturing cost of the SSD, but they could still cut capacity to save money.

Apart from that, they will have a smaller die which will put out less heat, meaning less cooling is needed and they can go with a smaller case and cheaper PSU. They don't need to go with the super expensive memory the XSX has and they can cut the capacity to 12 GB. Finally they can remove the blue ray drive.

You think this will equal to a $200 savings for MS though? I'm not so sure.

I think what he means is that casual-leaning gamers will see, or hear that it’s 4TF somewhere on the internet, and be like wtf, causing PR problems for them.

I would imagine that seeing results well in excess of what One X could pull, will quickly change minds though. The proof is in the pudding.

This is EXACTLY what I'm getting at. And if the XSS can pull off the same games that the XSX can do (just at 1080p), why sell it $200 cheaper? That sounds more like a $100 difference to me (so that Lockhart can be the profit console and XSX is the loss leader console).

 

[Starcheif]

I wonder how this thread would be different if Sony had a cheaper system coming this gen also

 

[-Arcadia-]

The bolded is true. But doesn't that also give credence as to why Sony's PS5 can be viewed as equally powerful as the XSX?

To quote myself, lightly edited for a non-combative situation:

Series X is not a three year old design (even older from production), based heavily on last generation technology and original Xbox One design decisions (like the Jaguar CPU).

This relies on parity between the PS5/Series X situation, and this theoretical Lockhart/Xbox One X situation. Which doesn’t exist.

Both Series X and PS5 are arriving to the table using largely the same techniques, the same modern hardware, etc.

At this point in time, Sony has demonstrated nothing to show us that the PS5 could make up for this Teraflop difference, and be on par with, or more powerful than the Series X.

If that changes, I’ll change my rhetoric too, but it seems to me that they’re aiming for a slightly more affordable system, or to put their budget into other areas, like the controller and SSD.

 

[-Arcadia-]

Moreover, if Sony had something like that, wouldn’t they release it, instead of taking this ‘PS5 is weaker’ thing on the chin? If there was some kind of ‘Secret Sauce’, it would make sense to promote that absolutely everywhere, and especially during Cerny’s event.

They’re okay with being less powerful. Their priorities are likely elsewhere, as we saw with the PS4 Pro.

 

[thelastword]

I see no place for Lockhart. People are arguing 1080p, but that metric in PC circles is associated with PC kit that can do 4k 30-60fps on PC, but people prefer to play at high frames and lower rez for fluidity with no sudden framerate tank falls.

Consoles are supposed to move the entire paradigm forward: resolution, framerates, fidelity, ai, physics, gameplay.....Offering scaled down experiences after 7 years of mostly sub parts XBONES hardware is not ideal......

Most console gamers don't have or game on 1080p 144-240hz monitors, they game on a 4k set.... I've had my 4k set for the balance of this current gen, next gen consoles are going to do 4k like PS4 did 1080p this gen, there is no way why Any console gamer should be gaming in 1080p next gen with reduced RT effects and compromised parts to hit some low tier price point.... It won't work and if MS releases this, they would have misread the market yet again.

Look at XBONEX, that thing just came out, not so long ago actually, hyped to heavens, it's now sub $300, but in reality no one should have bought it at $500, because it was discounted almost immediately after launch due to low sales....... But MS has no problem stopping production and moving on to the next thing they hype, no longevity for their products as history confirms...

Now, that Xbonex is premium just as series, but look how quickly it got cheap and discounted everywhere, why would Series X be any different? Why would anyone go buy a Lockhart for $299, a 1080p console in late 2020, when 4k tv's are as cheap as roadkill since years ago, when Series X may very well be 299-399 on sale in early 2021.....What type of value will a Lockhart hold in 2021 for resale when a series x a 4k console may be close to Lockhart asking prices in a sale.

Lockhart is going to be a hard sell, even to the poor folk..... People have to remember, people don't just buy stuff because it's cheap, they are quicker to buy cheaper products with lots of value, hence PS4 vs XBONES and Ryzen vs Intel.....