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[BeardGawd]

What about 1080p checkerboarded to a higher res? What about the 1080p rt Minecraft?

360p on XsX?

MS has already demoed 540p to 1080p scaling using DirectML. I imagine the same would happen in this scenario.

 

[Elenchus]

That's just the GPU though. That's a very PC-like thing to do. A console is different. And no it's not just 1% of people that go to blogs. It's the same people that MS screwed themselves up with, with the "TV TV TV" introduction on the Xbox One, the same people that Sony screwed themselves up with when they said "You'll need to own a 2nd job to own the PS3". That stuff matters. We aren't the 1%. When we on forums hear these things, we speak to our brothers, cousins, friends, etc about it. Word gets around fast.


And comparing this to a phone isn't the best thing to do. And YES the different levels of iphones do confuse people. Alot of the time they just get the one they can most afford or the get the most expensive one. But I'm spoken to many people that get confused. It's one reason why the Galaxy Andriod phones are so popular with that OS. Instead of looking at 5 different hardware manufactures that make Android phones, many casuals just get the latest Samsung Galaxy smart phone instead.

You think 2 consoles will confuse consumers but you do not think that multiple expansion SSDs (that apparently have to be installed internally on PS5) will confuse consumers? That’s interesting.

 

[mckmas8808]

You think 2 consoles will confuse consumers but you do not think that multiple expansion SSDs (that apparently have to be installed internally on PS5) will confuse consumers? That’s interesting.

What are you talking about? We have no idea how the PS5 SSD expansion will actually work. Sony hasn't talked about that yet.

 

[Elenchus]

You did, but you posted data that doesn't really dispute his point since its not a stat for console gamers. Try paying attention, okay?

I posted the relevant available data as a basis for my question-not to prove a point.

Your posts would make more sense if only you’d put some actual thought into them.

 

[DForce]

I posted the relevant available data as a basis for my question-not to prove a point.

Your posts would make more sense if only you’d put some actual thought into them.

No, just you backtracking because you didn't consider what you actually posted. But I'm sure you going to say you have, but it's obvious you didn't.

 

[Nikana]

That's just the GPU though. That's a very PC-like thing to do. A console is different. And no it's not just 1% of people that go to blogs. It's the same people that MS screwed themselves up with, with the "TV TV TV" introduction on the Xbox One, the same people that Sony screwed themselves up with when they said "You'll need to own a 2nd job to own the PS3". That stuff matters. We aren't the 1%. When we on forums hear these things, we speak to our brothers, cousins, friends, etc about it. Word gets around fast.


And comparing this to a phone isn't the best thing to do. And YES the different levels of iphones do confuse people. Alot of the time they just get the one they can most afford or the get the most expensive one. But I'm spoken to many people that get confused. It's one reason why the Galaxy Andriod phones are so popular with that OS. Instead of looking at 5 different hardware manufactures that make Android phones, many casuals just get the latest Samsung Galaxy smart phone instead.

Building a console and a GPU is not that different. The difference is the SOC features different types of cores but the manufacturer process is almost identical. The same principals are there and the way you cut costs is the same. It's all about die space and how much you are putting into that die.

And it is the one percent. Are you trying to say that a majority of the 100 million plus ps4 owners all go on forums and were looking up ESRAM and 1.3 tf GPU clocks when last gen kicked off? Not happening.

No one said it doesn't confuse people. What I said was that it's not as confusing as you think and getting to an answer isn't rocket science.

People do not pick up Samsung because it's easier. They pick it up because of brand recognition which makes their choice of getting a product they think they want easier. The same with apple.

 

[Fun Fanboy]

@Monsterkillah is the type of gamer I was telling you guys about on the last page. Some gamers aren't going to understand what I bolded in Nikana post. It's going to be hard to explain why 4 TFs is more powerful than 6 TFs to many people.

Why am I supposed to be concerned for that type of gamer?

 

[Elenchus]

What are you talking about? We have no idea how the PS5 SSD expansion will actually work. Sony hasn't talked about that yet.

Sony has said it will not be a single drive and will be a collection of drives they verify. Sony has not said there will be any PS5 branding on the verified drives and there likely won’t be since most of the drives will also be sold to a PC audience. So it sounds very much like consumers having to visit a website with a rolling list. Will grandma and grandpa be doing that? Will Sony be handling any software updates for these verified drives or will the manufacturers be doing that? Sounds very confusing to me.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Sony has said it will not be a single drive and will be a collection of drives they verify. Sony has not said there will be any PS5 branding on the verified drives and there likely won’t be since most of the drives will also be sold to a PC audience. So it sounds very much like consumers having to visit a website with a rolling list. Will grandma and grandpa be doing that? Will Sony be handling any software updates for these verified drives or will the manufacturers be doing that? Sounds very confusing to me.

Grandma and grandpa would never buy an expansion SSD anyway. They will keep whatever is in the console

 

[JLMC469]

Possible reveal in 2 weeks?

 

[DForce]

Lockhart has its place. I think it's a good idea to try to put a cheaper console on the market.

That being said, there are many factors to consider if people think it will do REALLY well when it comes to be competitive sales wise against Sony and Nintendo.

- Will the PlayStation 5 be $400?
- A lot of games are going to receive cross-gen for the first few years. Will people decide to buy the Lockhart or PS4\PS4 pro for a possible cheaper price?
- Will a competitive price point from Nintendo factor in? This has to be considered since a $350 was selling better than a $200-$300 Xbox One S and PlayStation 4 Slim.

The thing is, the Lockhart will have longevity compared to the PS4\PS4 Pro, and things might change when current gen consoles begin to show their age and devs move on to next gen consoles.

Next gen 2020 (or early 2021), MS, Sony and Nintendo are very likely to sell their consoles at a good price point. This is different than this generation and last generation when PS3 released at $500-$600 and Nintendo WiiU flopped as a console.

Sony will want to end PS4 on a high note by releasing the console for $150 this upcoming holiday season. Sony and Nintendo being hot, it may factor into how well Lockhart does within the first 2 years. I'm not saying it will flop, I'm saying it might not be as strong as people think within the first few years. These are just some things to consider.

 

[Elenchus]

No, just you backtracking because you didn't consider what you actually posted. But I'm sure you going to say you have, but it's obvious you didn't.

Where is the backtracking? I never represented the numbers as worldwide console numbers.

I clearly said it was US households. What you’re saying, again, makes no sense.

Think. Then post.

 

[DForce]

Where is the backtracking? I never represented the numbers as worldwide console numbers.

I clearly said it was US households. What you’re saying, again, makes no sense.

Think. Then post.

I never said you did represent it as world wide.

You're not paying attention. You can't focus, so I'm not going to waste anymore time.

 

[mckmas8808]

And it is the one percent. Are you trying to say that a majority of the 100 million plus ps4 owners all go on forums and were looking up ESRAM and 1.3 tf GPU clocks when last gen kicked off? Not happening.

No one said it doesn't confuse people. What I said was that it's not as confusing as you think and getting to an answer isn't rocket science.

People do not pick up Samsung because it's easier. They pick it up because of brand recognition which makes their choice of getting a product they think they want easier. The same with apple.

No, I'm saying it's more than 1% of gamers that hear about the information that we are talking about. Most of them don't understand most of it though. And the brand recognition of Samsung Galaxy phones and iPhones got to where they are today (somewhat) due to how simple it was to understand the product and also the quality of the product.

Why am I supposed to be concerned for that type of gamer?

You aren't. I'm not either. But MS has to be concerned for that type of gamer.

Sony has said it will not be a single drive and will be a collection of drives they verify. Sony has not said there will be any PS5 branding on the verified drives and there likely won’t be since most of the drives will also be sold to a PC audience. So it sounds very much like consumers having to visit a website with a rolling list. Will grandma and grandpa be doing that? Will Sony be handling any software updates for these verified drives or will the manufacturers be doing that? Sounds very confusing to me.

Oh you talking about that.....yeah that will be confusing to many. But most people don't upgrade their HDD (or in this case SSD) in their console. For the people that will, it will be confusing for many I agree. I think it's very STUPID of Sony to just release a list of SSDs that will work with the PS5. I think they should throw the Playstation brand on the best 2 or 3 options and sell them in stores, Amazon, and their website.

But Sony has chosen to be stupid here and force everyone to do homework in order to upgrade their SSD.

 

[mckmas8808]

That being said, there are many factors to consider if people think it will do REALLY well when it comes to be competitive sales wise against Sony and Nintendo.

- Will the PlayStation 5 be $400?
- A lot of games are going to receive cross-gen for the first few years. Will people decide to buy the Lockhart or PS4\PS4 pro for a possible cheaper price?
- Will a competitive price point from Nintendo factor in? This has to be considered since a $350 was selling better than a $200-$300 Xbox One S and PlayStation 4 Slim.

You bring up a good point that I haven't thought of. Could Lockhart be cheaper than the PS4 Pro when it launches? Most places are selling the PS4 Pro for $399 still. It'll probably be $349 this Holiday. Either MS will lose $75 or more per console on Lockhart or Sony is making super high profit from every PS4 Pro sold.

 

[Nikana]

No, I'm saying it's more than 1% of gamers that hear about the information that we are talking about. Most of them don't understand most of it though. And the brand recognition of Samsung Galaxy phones and iPhones got to where they are today (somewhat) due to how simple it was to understand the product and also the quality of the product.



You aren't. I'm not either. But MS has to be concerned for that type of gamer.



Oh you talking about that.....yeah that will be confusing to many. But most people don't upgrade their HDD (or in this case SSD) in their console. For the people that will, it will be confusing for many I agree. I think it's very STUPID of Sony to just release a list of SSDs that will work with the PS5. I think they should throw the Playstation brand on the best 2 or 3 options and sell them in stores, Amazon, and their website.

But Sony has chosen to be stupid here and force everyone to do homework in order to upgrade their SSD.

I like how you ignored the other half of my comment but I digress.

The bolded is exactly the point. Average consumers don't understand what a TF even is or why its important in any capacity. They are going to go into a store. See the price, the games, the services and make their choice depending on what is important to them which will be price, what their friends have and what games they want to play. Not that the Xbox One X has 6 TF of GCN power vs Lockhart's 4TF of RDNA.

And also calling anything Apple does "simple" is a severe disconnect to how consumers portray their image. As someone who works with apple devices everyday to make a living simple is never part of the equation. Its eco systems. People want things to simply just work and Apple has gotten very good at getting people to plug into their ecosystem so their entire life has to be filtered through them. That's not simple.

Also your understanding of the Android market share seems to either be flaws or you are only looking at the American audience. The Galaxy brand only accounts for 30 percent of the global market. so 70 percent of the rest of the world didn't choose Galaxy.

Edited for updated market share numbers.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Except it's not. Nice try though. Cannot have it both ways.

It isnt like like I am am even an Xbox advocate. The brand itself has a serious uphill hurdle. This Lockhart crap is just stupid at this point.

It is actually

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Lockhart 4 tf Xbox One X 6 tf

?

Consumer doesn't care about efficiency.
Numbers is what draws them even MS knows this as they were quick to announce the 12TF's of XSX.
Lil Jimmy... Daddy I want the XSX or PS5!
Dad: I aint paying no $500! Jimmy: How about the $299 XSS? Dad: Boy you lost your mind!? It says 4TF's they got the Xbox X for $299 and it's 6TF! It says 4K right on the box!

 

[ZywyPL]

Least?

They're going up against Sony and Nintendo. Marketing should be one of their top priorities.

That wasn't the context of the discussion at all, marketing two different SKUs was.

But I don't know if Nintendo openly advertising their console as a toy for kids is any of MS (or Sony's) concern, they don't target the same audience. It's like a family sedan vs two seater roadster, sure both are cars, and both belong to the same market, but both are aimed for different consumers, they don't compete with each other at all.

Sony on the other hand with their anti-consumer approach being marketed as "4theplayers" are laughable at worst. They were spot-on with "greatness awaits" tho, since PS4 had no games for half of its lifespan, I'll give you that.

 

[McCheese]

This can't be right, at 4TF it couldn't even play the current-gen titles with all the 'X' improvements enabled.

I always figured if Lockheart was going to happen, it would just be a new revision of the Xbox One X with a smaller form factor, the new next-gen branding and the updated controller. The X didn't sell very well and I can see them using an entry-level model as a way to clear our inventory.

 

[CrustyBritches]

We're in our own little enthusiast bubble here on GAF. For people who aren't enthusiast gamers, it's simply a price-driven decision. They look in the store ads and see that next-gen PS5 and XSX are $500. Then they see there's an entry-level next-gen system for $250-300. They wonder "what's the difference?", and the ad reads that it plays the same games, but at 1080p rather than 4K.

In that manner, marketing for the price-conscious shopper should be focused on these sticking points:
1. Xbox Lockhart can play next-gen games and Xbox One cannot.
2. Xbox Lockhart can play every game Xbox One can, but even better
3. Xbox Lockhart can use your Xbox One controllers, subscriptions, and accessories

The focus for the price-conscious shopper is VALUE, not performance.

 

[mckmas8808]

I like how you ignored the other half of my comment but I digress.

The bolded is exactly the point. Average consumers don't understand what a TF even is or why its important in any capacity. They are going to go into a store. See the price, the games, the services and make their choice depending on what is important to them which will be price, what their friends have and what games they want to play. Not that the Xbox One X has 6 TF of GCN power vs Lockhart's 4TF of RDNA.

And also calling anything Apple does "simple" is a severe disconnect to how consumers portray their image. As someone who works with apple devices everyday to make a living simple is never part of the equation. Its eco systems. People want things to simply just work and Apple has gotten very good at getting people to plug into their ecosystem so their entire life has to be filtered through them. That's not simple.

Also your understanding of the Android market share seems to either be flaws or you are only looking at the American audience. The Galaxy brand only accounts for 30 percent of the global market. so 70 percent of the rest of the world didn't choose Galaxy.

Edited for updated market share numbers.

I wasn't calling Apple simple in any negative way. I was being positive actually. And what I meant by that is what you explained. I didn't mean it was simple for Apple to engineer their software or hardware to make it all work. It's one of the reasons Steve Jobs believed in only having one sized phone per generation. Of course Tim Cook completely disagrees with this.

And yes my understanding of the Android market is 100% American focused as it's where I live and it's the only thing I know of. Doesn't account for the global market.

We're in our own little enthusiast bubble here on GAF. For people who aren't enthusiast gamers, it's simply a price-driven decision. They look in the store ads and see that next-gen PS5 and XSX are $500. Then they see there's an entry-level next-gen system for $250-300. They wonder "what's the difference?", and the ad reads that it plays the same games, but at 1080p rather than 4K.

In that manner, marketing for the price-conscious shopper should be focused on these sticking points:
1. Xbox Lockhart can play next-gen games and Xbox One cannot.
2. Xbox Lockhart can play every game Xbox One can, but even better
3. Xbox Lockhart can use your Xbox One controllers, subscriptions, and accessories

The focus for the price-conscious shopper is VALUE, not performance.

Here's the problem for MS......

1. Xbox One "WILL" play next-gen games like Halo Infinite and all MS first party games for the first 12-24 months according to Phil.
2. But can it play Xbox One games at 4K?
3. That's a smart approach.

 

[diffusionx]

I like how you ignored the other half of my comment but I digress.

The bolded is exactly the point. Average consumers don't understand what a TF even is or why its important in any capacity. They are going to go into a store. See the price, the games, the services and make their choice depending on what is important to them which will be price, what their friends have and what games they want to play. Not that the Xbox One X has 6 TF of GCN power vs Lockhart's 4TF of RDNA.

And also calling anything Apple does "simple" is a severe disconnect to how consumers portray their image. As someone who works with apple devices everyday to make a living simple is never part of the equation. Its eco systems. People want things to simply just work and Apple has gotten very good at getting people to plug into their ecosystem so their entire life has to be filtered through them. That's not simple.

Also your understanding of the Android market share seems to either be flaws or you are only looking at the American audience. The Galaxy brand only accounts for 30 percent of the global market. so 70 percent of the rest of the world didn't choose Galaxy.

Edited for updated market share numbers.

Well, gamers don't understand it either FWIW.

But yes you're right. Nobody is going to buy a console because one has more teraflops. Xbox fanboys are just trumpeting it now, but even if the number was lower, they would still buy Xbox (as they did with the One). You see polls online, the Sony fanboys are not planning to buy an Xbox because of teraflops. It's because they want Sony. Other stuff is more important than specs, because of course it is, because it always has been. You can't play specs.

A cheaper console is a smart move, especially in the world it looks like we are entering. I don't think they would sell many $500 consoles even in good times. I still wonder why they are building this PC-like ecosystem of tiered consoles, especially since the consoles are running hardware similar to what's on the shelf for PC, running a Windows-derived OS, and using DirectX. But as long as they are building consoles that way, you might as well try to reach more markets.

 

[CrustyBritches]

Here's the problem for MS......

1. Xbox One "WILL" play next-gen games like Halo Infinite and all MS first party games for the first 12-24 months according to Phil.
2. But can it play Xbox One games at 4K?
3. That's a smart approach.

1. Cross-gen games are common. Long-term value proposition of buying a current-gen system over the Lockhart is poor since it won't play next-gen games. The simple solution for MS is end sales of the Xbox One.

2. The Lockhart as rumored is more powerful than the X1X, especially in CPU-bound scenarios.

 

[Nikana]

I wasn't calling Apple simple in any negative way. I was being positive actually. And what I meant by that is what you explained. I didn't mean it was simple for Apple to engineer their software or hardware to make it all work. It's one of the reasons Steve Jobs believed in only having one sized phone per generation. Of course Tim Cook completely disagrees with this.

And yes my understanding of the Android market is 100% American focused as it's where I live and it's the only thing I know of. Doesn't account for the global market.




Here's the problem for MS......

1. Xbox One "WILL" play next-gen games like Halo Infinite and all MS first party games for the first 12-24 months according to Phil.
2. But can it play Xbox One games at 4K?
3. That's a smart approach.

I didn't mean it a negative or positive way. I am simply stating that you seem to think that the market wants simplicity and turn key solutions which is why Apple and Samsung are the most popular brands. Which is not the case. Apple is very far from a Turn Key Solution in the tech space because the tech space in general has a lot of players the same way the Gaming market does now.

And by that virtue Microsoft having two different SKU's on shelves is going to somehow a huge disruption in how people will perceive the product and its value. The two different SKUs will be the least of Microsoft's worry and if anything will help them get a foothold into the market as consumers are showing they are becoming far more price conscious than ever before. The latest and most expensive has shown in the tech space that its not the most popular category. Laptops, Phones, Tablets all show that consumers don't always want the "best" but the best "bang for your buck" instead. Even Microsofts own products show this.

 

[Nikana]

Well, gamers don't understand it either FWIW.

But yes you're right. Nobody is going to buy a console because one has more teraflops. Xbox fanboys are just trumpeting it now, but even if the number was lower, they would still buy Xbox (as they did with the One). You see polls online, the Sony fanboys are not planning to buy an Xbox because of teraflops. It's because they want Sony. Other stuff is more important than specs, because of course it is, because it always has been. You can't play specs.

A cheaper console is a smart move, especially in the world it looks like we are entering. I don't think they would sell many $500 consoles even in good times. I still wonder why they are building this PC-like ecosystem of tiered consoles, especially since the consoles are running hardware similar to what's on the shelf for PC, running a Windows-derived OS, and using DirectX. But as long as they are building consoles that way, you might as well try to reach more markets.

I think it makes sense to have a tier approach because the tech market has always been a high end model first kind of market. The most powerful version comes out first and then as the tech gets better they release the budget friendly version. To skip that first step is totally unproven and in some cases you could argue that its suicide as brands that focus on "budget" usually die very quickly because they dont have market mindshare as well as a proven track record.

If Microsoft skipped the Series X and just went for a Series S approach they would corner the market yes but they also wouldn't have the mindshare of being the most powerful as well. This covers every type of consumer for the most part in the console space. DO you want the premium experience or do you just want to get it done kind of thing.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

I think it makes sense to have a tier approach because the tech market has always been a high end model first kind of market. The most powerful version comes out first and then as the tech gets better they release the budget friendly version. To skip that first step is totally unproven and in some cases you could argue that its suicide as brands that focus on "budget" usually die very quickly because they dont have market mindshare as well as a proven track record.

If Microsoft skipped the Series X and just went for a Series S approach they would corner the market yes but they also wouldn't have the mindshare of being the most powerful as well. This covers every type of consumer for the most part in the console space. DO you want the premium experience or do you just want to get it done kind of thing.

The question is, is there actually enough customers for both SKUs to justify both existing together?

It is true that there had always been people requesting the two sku release of consoles. However, everytime it was suggested, it is brought up by someone who wanted the more expensive SKU and wanted the cheaper machine "for the peasants" just to justify why they can have an overpriced machine.

It is telling that in all the time I have seen people talk about 2 SKUs, I have never heard anyone saying they WANT the cheaper machine. It was always someone saying they want the more expensive one, and the cheaper one is there to allow the price increase.

Yes, the cheaper machine has a larger gaming market. But historically that role is taken up by the previous gen hardware. You release a superslim, bundle lots of games with it, and there you go. Gaming for the masses. if someone doesn't own a current gen machine even now, then they would be just as happy to buy a superslim of this gen in one year's time.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

1. Cross-gen games are common. Long-term value proposition of buying a current-gen system over the Lockhart is poor since it won't play next-gen games. The simple solution for MS is end sales of the Xbox One.

2. The Lockhart as rumored is more powerful than the X1X, especially in CPU-bound scenarios.

it's been a failed generation for Xbox... MS should scrap it or make One X the minimum so this gen isn't held back as much.

CPU bound scenarios are lower res ones.
Going to be hard to market a 1080p 4TF machine when a ~4K 6TF machine is available and plays the same games.

 

[Nikana]

The question is, is there actually enough customers for both SKUs to justify both existing together?

It is true that there had always been people requesting the two sku release of consoles. However, everytime it was suggested, it is brought up by someone who wanted the more expensive SKU and wanted the cheaper machine "for the peasants" just to justify why they can have an overpriced machine.

It is telling that in all the time I have seen people talk about 2 SKUs, I have never heard anyone saying they WANT the cheaper machine. It was always someone saying they want the more expensive one, and the cheaper one is there to allow the price increase.

Yes, the cheaper machine has a larger gaming market. But historically that role is taken up by the previous gen hardware. You release a superslim, bundle lots of games with it, and there you go. Gaming for the masses. if someone doesn't own a current gen machine even now, then they would be just as happy to buy a superslim of this gen in one year's time.

This is a good point but in the case for Microsoft they are dealing with a 50 million plus gap and with the product that is the Xbox One there is a stigma about it and Microsoft wants a clean break.

I could see Lockhart also helping them with not only getting people in to the ecosystem but to stay in the ecosystem. The last gen machines are usually around that $200 price point near the end of the generation but you will only get a year or two out of them before its time to upgrade where as now they can lock you in for 5-7 years.

 

[CrustyBritches]

it's been a failed generation for Xbox... MS should scrap it or make One X the minimum so this gen isn't held back as much.

I agree the easiest way to move forward is to discontinue the current Xbox One gen later this year.

CPU bound scenarios are lower res ones.
Going to be hard to market a 1080p 4TF machine when a ~4K 6TF machine is available and plays the same games.

There's 2 separate arguments being combined as one with the claims being made in this thread. This is due to confusion and "concern" on the enthusiasts' part, which is then being projected onto the casual, price-conscious consumer:

Theme 1-> Lockhart marketing is confusing to it's target demographic

The price-conscious consumer doesn't have the option for a $500 4K next-gen system purchase. They are value shoppers. Lockhart offers the value I mentioned earlier, with the only trade-off being it runs next-gen games at 1080p instead of 4K. That's all a value-oriented, casual gamer needs to know.

Theme 2-> Lockhart is weaker than X1X, thus X1X should remain as the entry-level system

According to tests I've done with a 4TF Turing GPU and Ryzen 5 1600, the Lockhart will at worst slightly edge the X1X in GPU-bound 4K scenarios, and easily surpass it in regards to CPU-bound scenarios like TW3's 'Performance Mode'. This is concerning current-gen games, and completely ignoring next-gen games designed around Zen 2 CPU, RT, VRS, and ML for AI-based upscaling. For example, how would X1X perform in Control with RT enabled?

 

[DForce]

That wasn't the context of the discussion at all, marketing two different SKUs was.

But I don't know if Nintendo openly advertising their console as a toy for kids is any of MS (or Sony's) concern, they don't target the same audience. It's like a family sedan vs two seater roadster, sure both are cars, and both belong to the same market, but both are aimed for different consumers, they don't compete with each other at all.

Sony on the other hand with their anti-consumer approach being marketed as "4theplayers" are laughable at worst. They were spot-on with "greatness awaits" tho, since PS4 had no games for half of its lifespan, I'll give you that.

Yes, it can be confusing to some if people hear that it's 4TF. There are going to think 4TF is the same as a 4TF on the PS4 Pro. There are people here who even think that the 4TF is weaker than 6TF on the Xbox One X. Marketing is very importing trying to get the message across. Their best be is to ever talk about 4TF figure that much.

Half it's life span? So if we were going to use your logic, MS didn't have no games for the entire generation.

 

[Sid Of Bee]

Those worried about "shackling" are forgetting how the PC games scale AND how consoles are more tightly developed for. I can envision both consoles working great under certain restrictions and not holding back anything.

 

[Shmunter]

I agree the easiest way to move forward is to discontinue the current Xbox One gen later this year.


There's 2 separate arguments being combined as one with the claims being made in this thread. This is due to confusion and "concern" on the enthusiasts' part, which is then being projected onto the casual, price-conscious consumer:

Theme 1-> Lockhart marketing is confusing to it's target demographic

The price-conscious consumer doesn't have the option for a $500 4K next-gen system purchase. They are value shoppers. Lockhart offers the value I mentioned earlier, with the only trade-off being it runs next-gen games at 1080p instead of 4K. That's all a value-oriented, casual gamer needs to know.

Theme 2-> Lockhart is weaker than X1X, thus X1X should remain as the entry-level system

According to tests I've done with a 4TF Turing GPU and Ryzen 5 1600, the Lockhart will at worst slightly edge the X1X in GPU-bound 4K scenarios, and easily surpass it in regards to CPU-bound scenarios like TW3's 'Performance Mode'. This is concerning current-gen games, and completely ignoring next-gen games designed around Zen 2 CPU, RT, VRS, and ML for AI-based upscaling. For example, how would X1X perform in Control with RT enabled?

Or do it like it’s always been done. Bring in the next gen full tilt, no compromise. Set a benchmark to follow, make life simple for devs and consumers.

Price conscious consumers can buy cheap last gen systems that will continue to be supported for a few years yet.

Price conscious consumers upgrade to next gen once launch prices lower.

BUT I suspect Microsoft is trying to wipe Xbox One from history. Support for the Xbox VCR edition must be a bigger ball and chain than any wife.

 

[Torrent of Pork]

I'd happily buy a cheap, low power PS5 next year for the handfull of Sony exclusives I want to play.

The way it is I'll likely wait until 2022-2023 when I can get a used one for $200.

 

[DForce]

You bring up a good point that I haven't thought of. Could Lockhart be cheaper than the PS4 Pro when it launches? Most places are selling the PS4 Pro for $399 still. It'll probably be $349 this Holiday. Either MS will lose $75 or more per console on Lockhart or Sony is making super high profit from every PS4 Pro sold.

There's rumors that they're going to cut the price for both consoles, so I think it's possible we'll see an aggressive push soon.

 

[DaGwaphics]

According to tests I've done with a 4TF Turing GPU and Ryzen 5 1600, the Lockhart will at worst slightly edge the X1X in GPU-bound 4K scenarios, and easily surpass it in regards to CPU-bound scenarios like TW3's 'Performance Mode'. This is concerning current-gen games, and completely ignoring next-gen games designed around Zen 2 CPU, RT, VRS, and ML for AI-based upscaling. For example, how would X1X perform in Control with RT enabled?

The DF video, about a potential lockhart, definitely indicated that a 4TF RDNA part should be able to match 1X performance at 4k on current gen games. Likely could best it with the improved CPU. Basically an improved 1X that can play next-gen at lower resolutions.

 

[Ascend]

I find it hilarious that no one wants to compare the PS5 and XSX TFLOPS despite them having the same architecture, and that in here suddenly everyone wants to compare the TFLOPS of Lockhart to the TFLOPS of the Xbox One X, despite them being different architectures... People really have no idea what they're talking about, like usual.

The 4TF of Lockhart will at least give equal to and likely more performance than the 6TF of the Xbox One X. It's RDNA 2 vs GCN 4. Keep the following in mind;

RDNA1 was already 40% faster than Polaris at the same TF. Polaris is GCN 4.

Going by that number, then effectively, the 4TF Lockhart is the equivalent of at least a 5.6 TF Polaris GPU.

 

[CrustyBritches]

Price conscious consumers can buy cheap last gen systems that will continue to be supported for a few years yet.

Price conscious consumers upgrade to next gen once launch prices lower.

Or you could just simply not be concerned about it and either stay with your last-gen system, or upgrade to a $500 next-gen system.

I fit into the target demographic that would benefit from the Lockhart. My boys currently play on 2 X1S consoles on an old hand-me-down 55" 1080p TV and a 22" 1080p monitor. The actual visual difference they'd see between a 1080p system and a 4K system would be almost nothing. I'd like to dump those systems and upgrade to 2 Lockharts for Christmas. They don't need 4K support, and they especially don't need $500 consoles.

With the Lockhart we get Zen 2, RT, VRS, and ML. We get BC with games and accessories. We get security in the knowledge we'll have next-gen game support for the duration of the generation. At the same price as X1X, why would I bother going that route, and why would I wait years to buy if I can have them later this year?
---
Now that you have an idea where I'm coming from, I'd like you to make an argument for why I wouldn't benefit from a $250-300 Lockhart, and instead should wait years while sitting on old hardware, or be forced into making an upgrade twice and paying for 2 $300 X1X's now, and then 2 $300-400 XSX's later.

The DF video, about a potential lockhart, definitely indicated that a 4TF RDNA part should be able to match 1X performance at 4k on current gen games. Likely could best it with the improved CPU. Basically an improved 1X that can play next-gen at lower resolutions.

It's true. With a locked and limited 4TF Turing+Ryzen 5 1600 on TW3 you get almost stable 4K/30fps at X1X settings in Novigrad and Crookback Bog(occasional drops to 28-29fps), and then solid 30fps+ elsewhere. At 1080p it's a whole different story, as according to DF X1X in 'Performance Mode' has "35-50fps range in Novigrad" and "wavering 50-60fps" in Crookback Bog. My R5 1600 + 4TF setup can achieve 60-70fps at 1080p in Novigrad, and 70-80fps in Crookback Bog. Due to that, Lockhart should completely replace whole Xbox One lineup, especially the X1X. The key to the Lockhart is having the same CPU and SSD, while maintain feature parity concerning RT and ML for AI-upscaling.

 

[DForce]

I find it hilarious that no one wants to compare the PS5 and XSX TFLOPS despite them having the same architecture, and that in here suddenly everyone wants to compare the TFLOPS of Lockhart to the TFLOPS of the Xbox One X, despite them being different architectures... People really have no idea what they're talking about, like usual.

The 4TF of Lockhart will at least give equal to and likely more performance than the 6TF of the Xbox One X. It's RDNA 2 vs GCN 4. Keep the following in mind;

RDNA1 was already 40% faster than Polaris at the same TF. Polaris is GCN 4.

Going by that number, then effectively, the 4TF Lockhart is the equivalent of at least a 5.6 TF Polaris GPU.

Because it's easier for people to understand that 12TF > 10.2TF
It's not easy for some people to understand that 4TF RDNA 2 > 6TF GCN. These are people who don't understand the difference in architecture and this is the problem MS will have when it comes to marketing their product.

 

[Shmunter]

Or you could just simply not be concerned about it and either stay with your last-gen system, or upgrade to a $500 next-gen system.

I fit into the target demographic that would benefit from the Lockhart. My boys currently play on 2 X1S consoles on an old hand-me-down 55" 1080p TV and a 22" 1080p monitor. The actual visual difference they'd see between a 1080p system and a 4K system would be almost nothing. I'd like to dump those systems and upgrade to 2 Lockharts for Christmas. They don't need 4K support, and they especially don't need $500 consoles.

With the Lockhart we get Zen 2, RT, VRS, and ML. We get BC with games and accessories. We get security in the knowledge we'll have next-gen game support for the duration of the generation. At the same price as X1X, why would I bother going that route, and why would I wait years to buy if I can have them later this year?
---
Now that you have an idea where I'm coming from, I'd like you to make an argument for why I wouldn't benefit from a $250-300 Lockhart, and instead should wait years while sitting on old hardware, or be forced into making an upgrade twice and paying for 2 $300 X1X's now, and then 2 $300-400 XSX's later.


It's true. With a locked and limited 4TF Turing+Ryzen 5 1600 on TW3 you get almost stable 4K/30fps at X1X settings in Novigrad and Crookback Bog(occasional drops to 28-29fps), and then solid 30fps+ elsewhere. At 1080p it's a whole different story, as according to DF X1X in 'Performance Mode' has "35-50fps range in Novigrad" and "wavering 50-60fps" in Crookback Bog. My R5 1600 + 4TF setup can achieve 60-70fps at 1080p in Novigrad, and 70-80fps in Crookback Bog. Due to that, Lockhart should completely replace whole Xbox One lineup, especially the X1X. The key to the Lockhart is having the same CPU and SSD, while maintain feature parity concerning RT and ML for AI-upscaling.

Fine, we all could benefit from cheap systems. I’m with you, 3 systems here.

But that is not what should define Next Gen. Mixing 1080p hand me downs with next gen is counter tech. I have a shitty 720p kicking in one room but rather not have a 720p next gen system to fit my backwards set.

Again if working on a budget, do so within constraints of that budget and not have a next gen compromise to fit the legacy, where does it stop. Next gen needs to be the high tide to lift all ships.

To qualify, I do not believe a 12tf system can be utilised to its full potential when a better selling 4tf system is in existence. I know opinions differ on this, but I’m fully convinced that such a generation will mean lazy upscale jobs on the 12tf for the most part. Not leveraging that power in smart and efficient ways.

 

[Nerd Strangler]

The question is, is there actually enough customers for both SKUs to justify both existing together?

It is true that there had always been people requesting the two sku release of consoles. However, everytime it was suggested, it is brought up by someone who wanted the more expensive SKU and wanted the cheaper machine "for the peasants" just to justify why they can have an overpriced machine.

It is telling that in all the time I have seen people talk about 2 SKUs, I have never heard anyone saying they WANT the cheaper machine. It was always someone saying they want the more expensive one, and the cheaper one is there to allow the price increase.

Yes, the cheaper machine has a larger gaming market. But historically that role is taken up by the previous gen hardware. You release a superslim, bundle lots of games with it, and there you go. Gaming for the masses. if someone doesn't own a current gen machine even now, then they would be just as happy to buy a superslim of this gen in one year's time.

I think there are enough xcloud customers to justify both SKUs existing. If you potentially need to populate a datacenter with millions of consoles because you are planning a major roll out of an online game streaming service and you expect 90% of streaming will be done at 1080p either due to resolution, bandwidth or data cap limits, then not having to spend extra on 4k capable hardware can probably result in hundreds of millions in savings. At which point making that lower end hardware also available to consumers for direct purchase is probably a relatively negligible cost. I think people are forgetting how lockhart also factors into Microsoft's game streaming ambitions.

 

[TLZ]

I find it hilarious that no one wants to compare the PS5 and XSX TFLOPS despite them having the same architecture, and that in here suddenly everyone wants to compare the TFLOPS of Lockhart to the TFLOPS of the Xbox One X, despite them being different architectures... People really have no idea what they're talking about, like usual.

The 4TF of Lockhart will at least give equal to and likely more performance than the 6TF of the Xbox One X. It's RDNA 2 vs GCN 4. Keep the following in mind;

RDNA1 was already 40% faster than Polaris at the same TF. Polaris is GCN 4.

Going by that number, then effectively, the 4TF Lockhart is the equivalent of at least a 5.6 TF Polaris GPU.

The bolded part is why we should be comparing Lockhart with X. We want to know the benefits of it compared to the X. If I have an X, should I keep it or upgrade to Lockhart? What are the benefits? Is it still capable even though it is 2tf lower? These are legit questions many would have in mind.

(I know the answers already so no need to answer me )

 

[CrustyBritches]

Again if working on a budget, do so within constraints of that budget and not have a next gen compromise to fit the legacy, where does it stop. Next gen needs to be the high tide to lift all ships.

To qualify, I do not believe a 12tf system can be utilised to its full potential when a better selling 4tf system is in existence. I know opinions differ on this, but I’m fully convinced that such a generation will mean lazy upscale jobs on the 12tf for the most part. Not leveraging that power in smart and efficient ways.

Fair enough. Just keep in mind that last-gen systems are getting cross-gen titles, and most 3rd-party games and MS 1st-party games are already coming to PC. MS over the past few years has become increasingly agile in their approach to development. Now, with DX12 and DXR support it will be a breeze to get games, engines, and RT support up and running for XSX. This is something DF mentioned in their video for XSX Minecraft RT. These are the major engines they mentioned that already have DXR support, in addition to all the internal 1st-party studios that already have been preparing for XSX and DXR on PC.

If anything, I think the argument could be made that MS has made it fast and easy to get next-gen features into games. Lockhart has it where it counts with Zen 2 CPU and SSD. These are most important for supporting next-gen titles. Additionally, it has feature parity with the XSX RDNA 2 GPU. With VRS and AI-upscaling there's almost no limit to how far down you can gimp the Lockhart to keep games running.

 

[cryptoadam]

Xbox is a PC. Xbox games and gamepass are all on PC.

Lots of people might cheap out on the graphics card if they dont plan to run high rez. This is the same thing.

Will it be enough to beat the playstation brand hard to tell. Sony is very strong. But MS has to think outside the box to take down PS.

 

[Gamerguy84]

All the talk about 4TF. If its RDNA2 its not as weak as some think it is and If it has the same processor and no BD drive. GPU would be a bit better than X1X.

Priced correctly this could be their trojan horse.

 

[Ascend]

Xbox is a PC. Xbox games and gamepass are all on PC.

Lots of people might cheap out on the graphics card if they dont plan to run high rez. This is the same thing.

Will it be enough to beat the playstation brand hard to tell. Sony is very strong. But MS has to think outside the box to take down PS.

I'll say the same thing I said in another thread.

Soon people are going to figure out that Sony will also be releasing many of their previously exclusive games on PC. Sony has been in financial trouble for a while now, which is why they are expanding to the PC. They won't be releasing everything to PC, since they probably want to test the waters on how many PC sales they get, but if it's successful, most likely you won't need a PlayStation any more than you need an Xbox to play the majority of the games that are on that console only. The PC will get pretty much everything. It has already started to happen, with games like Journey, Heavy Rain, Death Stranding, Beyond Two Souls... They are all already available on PC

Horizon Zero Dawn has been confirmed to be released for PC this summer.
MLB The Show will become MP in 2021.
And it has already been confirmed that more are to follow.

 

[gamerforever]

That wasn't the context of the discussion at all, marketing two different SKUs was.

But I don't know if Nintendo openly advertising their console as a toy for kids is any of MS (or Sony's) concern, they don't target the same audience. It's like a family sedan vs two seater roadster, sure both are cars, and both belong to the same market, but both are aimed for different consumers, they don't compete with each other at all.

Sony on the other hand with their anti-consumer approach being marketed as "4theplayers" are laughable at worst. They were spot-on with "greatness awaits" tho, since PS4 had no games for half of its lifespan, I'll give you that.

If PS4 had no games for half its lifespan, then what about Xbox One - we are talking nearly its WHOLE lifespan. This is why Lockhart is a tough sell. If you want an Xbox, buy a Series X or even better, a more powerful PC, because Xbox 'exclusives' are really 'Xbox and PC exclusives'. It's clear on social media that no one is excited about the series x, do you really think people will buy a Lockhart?

 

[John254]

The bolded part is why we should be comparing Lockhart with X. We want to know the benefits of it compared to the X. If I have an X, should I keep it or upgrade to Lockhart? What are the benefits? Is it still capable even though it is 2tf lower? These are legit questions many would have in mind.

(I know the answers already so no need to answer me )

I don't think Microsoft will even talk about 4TFLOPs. It will be just "cheapest next-gen console" or stuff like that.

 

[Gravemind]

@Monsterkillah is the type of gamer I was telling you guys about on the last page. Some gamers aren't going to understand what I bolded in Nikana post. It's going to be hard to explain why 4 TFs is more powerful than 6 TFs to many people.

You have a valid point, but to be fair, the people that Lockhart are targeting likely dont even know what a teraflop is, and likely dont even care/know much about console power. The people that are going to be purchasing lockhart are likely:

1. 'Casual gamers' that still want to get into next gen but are looking for the lowest price.

2. Moms and dads looking to get their young kids a console for christmas, birthdays, etc

3. People who are just getting into gaming for the first time.

As 'hardcores' we sometimes forget that there is large portion of the market that doesnt think the way we do or care about the same things we do. When I bought the Xbox One and PS4 at launch, I didnt even know what a teraflop was and didnt even know which console was more powerful than the other.

 

[Agnostic2020]

I'll say the same thing I said in another thread.

Soon people are going to figure out that Sony will also be releasing many of their previously exclusive games on PC. Sony has been in financial trouble for a while now, which is why they are expanding to the PC. They won't be releasing everything to PC, since they probably want to test the waters on how many PC sales they get, but if it's successful, most likely you won't need a PlayStation any more than you need an Xbox to play the majority of the games that are on that console only. The PC will get pretty much everything. It has already started to happen, with games like Journey, Heavy Rain, Death Stranding, Beyond Two Souls... They are all already available on PC

Horizon Zero Dawn has been confirmed to be released for PC this summer.
MLB The Show will become MP in 2021.
And it has already been confirmed that more are to follow.

Why the fuck are you spreading misinformation ?
Sony has never been in a better financial situation than the past few years . They hit record profit last year.

I understand ur upset that pc makes xbox redundant for many people but it is what it is . U don't need to drag ps into that due to your insecurities with false information.