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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen

He literally says that "the game doesn't look great".

And as I provided evidence of the complaining about how underpowered new consoles was most common back then. That's why it's funny to see some people miss that kind of generational leap when back then people make PS4/One out to be the smallest generational leap in gaming history.
Whether or not there were people making out ps4/xb1 to be weak at the time they came out doesn't matter when most people could see and feel the difference easily. Ryse, infamous, kz shadowfall, mgs ground zeros, battlefield 4, sunset Overdrive, shadow of mordor, cod advanced warfare all out in 2013-2014 and they blew away anything from the ps3/360. The difference in "next gen-ness" between then and what we've gotten from 2020 until the present on the new consoles is big.

I think with diminishing returns maybe today's consoles are underpowered relative to ps4/xb1 still because games are more resource demanding today. So many last gen games that have gotten next gen upgrades that can't run higher than still don't equal the PC versions that released 2 years ago.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Looks similar to Love Death and Robots season 1 to me…I remember people telling it was impossible to see real time visuals match it for a long time…
Here are my results when running this on all low settings and no RT. DLSSs balanced at 1440p so internal resolution below 900p. Still looks amazing. Consoles should run this at 30 fps if the 3080 is running this between 65-85 fps.

 
Richard from DF wrote this piece as to why we will be seeing more 30FPS games going forward citing ambitious games and UE5's protagonists (Nanite, Lumen) as the reason why: "We've already had our first taste of the kind of fidelity UE5 offers thanks to last year's phenomenal demo - The Matrix Awakens - based on an early rendition of the engine's features."

Have a read:


https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2022-why-the-return-of-30fps-console-games-is-inevitable

It's pretty obnoxious of DF to make that article following the release of Plague Tale and especially Gotham Knights, two games that are "next gen" in name only and are clearly poorly optimized and not very demanding. Plague Tale ok yes it looks really good and has some impressive LODs but Arkham Knights is a joke.

Did DF have too much time on their hands or are they trying to set expectations to help lazy devs out?
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Yes The Order 1886 is one of the best looking games ever made…nothing matches its environment’s except TLOU II and TLOU I Remake IMO…it literally looks like CGI in most places…my mouth dropped when I first seen it…I imagined PS5 and Series X with that fidelity all around before they launched and I have been disappointed…only Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart, Spiderman Miles Morales, TLOU II, TLOU I Remake and The Matrix Awakens were actually on par IMO.
The Order looked amazing because they didnt target 1080p. They shrewdly added black bars and reduced the cost of GPU rendering by over 33% without sacrificing the IQ. TLOU, Uncharted, Horizon, GoW all had to target 1080p which limited what they could do with the GPU.

HFW targeted 900p on the base console and gained a good 40% of the performance back which they put towards better lighting, character models and foliage. interactive foliage at that. Thats smart engineering. People who still have PS4s dont give a shit about resolution. SSM missed a big trick with GOW here. If dropping to 900p wasnt enough, they shouldve dropped all the way down to 720p to at least upgrade the character models.

Now Insomniac is chasing native 4k. We went from 2x upgrade in resolution from PS3 to PS4 to a 4x resolution upgrade from PS4 to PS5. Just an insane waste of precious GPU resources. I really fucking hope they dont do that with spiderman 2 as well, and target 1440p 30 fps, but the teaser trailer was native 4k. Just absolutely moronic. The Enemies demo looks amazing at a base resolution of 850p when using DLSS upscaling. FSR upscaling is poor but TSR was excellent in the Matrix. Cant believe Insomniac is doing this tbh. It's like everyone over at Sony studios has lost IQ points over the last few years.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
It's pretty obnoxious of DF to make that article following the release of Plague Tale and especially Gotham Knights, two games that are "next gen" in name only and are clearly poorly optimized and not very demanding. Plague Tale ok yes it looks really good and has some impressive LODs but Arkham Knights is a joke.

Did DF have too much time on their hands or are they trying to set expectations to help lazy devs out?
Whats funny is that Alex did a Gotham knights video literally the day after Richard published that article and showed how Gotham Knights is leaving 50% of the GPU unused.

Even Plague's tale is poorly optimized even on PC though at least it maxes out the GPU unlike Gotham. Game doesnt even look as good as horizon and runs at half the resolution. Like what?
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Cool video about games with good graphics, thought I'd share:


This is an excellent list of games that we have forgotten about over the years. I love to see Batman AK, BF1 and Rise of Tomb Raider get mentioned because at the time they looked exceptional. Batman AK and Rise had already come out by this time last gen. Playing Batman AK on PC right now and my goodness, its a gorgeous looking title. There are some low res textures and some weird UE3 aspects here and there but they dont hold it back because the art style really masks it. Rise is also a souped up UE3 game, but again, the artstyle and lighting is so excellent that it looks better than Shadow of Tomb Raider. I was really disappointed by Shadow despite playing it at native 4k on my x1x.

BF1 is just an aweinspiring spectacle. Like Batman AK did with rain, they focused on the atmosphere, smoke effects, and debris to really bring the gameplay to life. It wont ever match TLOU2 in screenshots but when playing the game with everything exploding all around you, it makes you feel like you are in a warzone in ways the latest CoDs and Battlefields simply dont.

I made this vid of my own BF1 clips matching it with the launch trailer audio, and this is one of the few games that match its bullshot trailers in terms of intensity. Such a shame DICE pretty much abandoned this game.

 

hussar16

Member
Here are my results when running this on all low settings and no RT. DLSSs balanced at 1440p so internal resolution below 900p. Still looks amazing. Consoles should run this at 30 fps if the 3080 is running this between 65-85 fps.


Gota say this engine is abit more realistic then unreal .that face looks like a real person
 

GooseMan69

Member
Whats funny is that Alex did a Gotham knights video literally the day after Richard published that article and showed how Gotham Knights is leaving 50% of the GPU unused.

Even Plague's tale is poorly optimized even on PC though at least it maxes out the GPU unlike Gotham. Game doesnt even look as good as horizon and runs at half the resolution. Like what?

I just wanna say I always enjoy reading your posts. I don’t always agree but graphic whore threads have always been my favorite to read. Keep doing what you’re doing 🥂
 
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alloush

Member
It's CRIMINAL that MS hasn't patched Ryse for 4k!!!!!
Man, Ryse still holds up pretty well today so you can imagine what my reaction was when I first saw it back in 2013. I was gonna get an xbox just for that game (thankfully I didn't:messenger_winking_tongue:). That game should have been patched honestly.

It's pretty obnoxious of DF to make that article following the release of Plague Tale and especially Gotham Knights, two games that are "next gen" in name only and are clearly poorly optimized and not very demanding. Plague Tale ok yes it looks really good and has some impressive LODs but Arkham Knights is a joke.

Did DF have too much time on their hands or are they trying to set expectations to help lazy devs out?
This is exactly what I said. I was like are DF serious? These are the only two games that don't support anything above 30fps when we got a whole host of games that have 60fps modes and what's funny they don't look as good as those other cross-gen games that support 60fps lol. Maybe it was a slow day at the office.
 

alloush

Member
Here are my results when running this on all low settings and no RT. DLSSs balanced at 1440p so internal resolution below 900p. Still looks amazing. Consoles should run this at 30 fps if the 3080 is running this between 65-85 fps.


This is some really gorgeous stuff dude. I reckon at the end of this gen we will get games that look close to this and The Matrix demo and be fully playable (hopefully).
 

alloush

Member
This is an excellent list of games that we have forgotten about over the years. I love to see Batman AK, BF1 and Rise of Tomb Raider get mentioned because at the time they looked exceptional. Batman AK and Rise had already come out by this time last gen. Playing Batman AK on PC right now and my goodness, its a gorgeous looking title. There are some low res textures and some weird UE3 aspects here and there but they dont hold it back because the art style really masks it. Rise is also a souped up UE3 game, but again, the artstyle and lighting is so excellent that it looks better than Shadow of Tomb Raider. I was really disappointed by Shadow despite playing it at native 4k on my x1x.

BF1 is just an aweinspiring spectacle. Like Batman AK did with rain, they focused on the atmosphere, smoke effects, and debris to really bring the gameplay to life. It wont ever match TLOU2 in screenshots but when playing the game with everything exploding all around you, it makes you feel like you are in a warzone in ways the latest CoDs and Battlefields simply dont.

I made this vid of my own BF1 clips matching it with the launch trailer audio, and this is one of the few games that match its bullshot trailers in terms of intensity. Such a shame DICE pretty much abandoned this game.


Nice video you got there. Dice knew how to capture the atmosphere perfectly in BF1.

I know, some of these games look amazing even today like Batman, BF1, Ryse, these are all almost a decade-old games that still hold up. Touching base on what the other guys were arguing about in terms of last gen consoles being underpowered and what not, yes they were underpowered by numbers that's what the specs said BUT games looked much better compared to the ps3/xbox360 like I do not care about the specs if the real-world results are different and say otherwise. I remember NBA2k14, I was blown-away by it I couldn't believe my eyes I remember the internet went crazy when they played that game.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
What do you guys make of this game? Looks way better than GOW. Like a cross between Plague's Tale and TLOU2. Way better textures and lighting than GOW, but the minimum specs are HD7870 which is basically the GPU that went into the PS4 though it did have 2.5 tflops thanks to higher clocks and all 20 CUs enabled.



Obviously the animations arent as good and thats where Sony studios talent comes in, but its great to to see no name studios produce incredible visuals like this.
 

Salz01

Member
What do you guys make of this game? Looks way better than GOW. Like a cross between Plague's Tale and TLOU2. Way better textures and lighting than GOW, but the minimum specs are HD7870 which is basically the GPU that went into the PS4 though it did have 2.5 tflops thanks to higher clocks and all 20 CUs enabled.



Obviously the animations arent as good and thats where Sony studios talent comes in, but its great to to see no name studios produce incredible visuals like this.

I’m down. Looks decent and will keep an eye on it. Thanks for posting
 

Arioco

Member
I think with diminishing returns maybe today's consoles are underpowered relative to ps4/xb1 still because games are more resource demanding today. So many last gen games that have gotten next gen upgrades that can't run higher than still don't equal the PC versions that released 2 years ago.


That will depend on the PC we're talking about, I guess.

Exactly the same thing was said about PS4 and Xbox One back in 2013 and 2014: "They can't even match the PC version of this X year old game"; "look at that horrible anisotropic filtering, this feature has been free on the PC for ages". You can have a look at any of the Bioshock on PS4, Tomb Raider DE, GTAV, Metro... you name it, none of them matched the PC version at max setting and they weren't exactly next gen games.


The truth is that compared to the PC technology available on the PC market at launch PS5 and Series X are way more powerful than PS4 and XBOX One were. Better GPU, much better CPU and incredibly better I/O system. Of course diminishing returns will always make harder to see a true next gen leap, but it's too early in their lifetime cycle and all we've gotten so far are intergenerational games because apparently SONY and MS are not willing to let PS4 and Xbox live x One go once and for all. But sooner than later they'll have to, so... 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

alloush

Member
What do you guys make of this game? Looks way better than GOW. Like a cross between Plague's Tale and TLOU2. Way better textures and lighting than GOW, but the minimum specs are HD7870 which is basically the GPU that went into the PS4 though it did have 2.5 tflops thanks to higher clocks and all 20 CUs enabled.



Obviously the animations arent as good and thats where Sony studios talent comes in, but its great to to see no name studios produce incredible visuals like this.

This looks really decent specially if we take into account it is a pre-alpha build. I like how close the camera is to the protagonist, it makes you feel the weight of the character and the power when swinging the sword, though I did get a little dizzy at the end lol.

Do you guys think it looks better than Demon's Souls?
 

GymWolf

Member
This looks really decent specially if we take into account it is a pre-alpha build. I like how close the camera is to the protagonist, it makes you feel the weight of the character and the power when swinging the sword, though I did get a little dizzy at the end lol.

Do you guys think it looks better than Demon's Souls?
No, it doesn't, but this one has bigger areas.
 

rofif

Can’t Git Gud

This is super cool but the lighting is baked into the texture which can cause some issues if you want your baked lighting from different angle than when you were capturing the photos.
or when you use Ray Tracing.
but I guess shadows can be just... painted?
Anyway - detailed photogrammetry seems very time consuming but effects are worth it and it looks like a great base for 3d model
 
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alloush

Member
This is super cool but the lighting is baked into the texture which can cause some issues if you want your baked lighting from different angle than when you were capturing the photos.
or when you use Ray Tracing.
but I guess shadows can be just... painted?
Anyway - detailed photogrammetry seems very time consuming but effects are worth it and it looks like a great base for 3d model
That's exactly what I thought of when I watched it. I do think photogrammetry is worth it though, this is some amazing stuff.
 

svbarnard

Banned
Do you guys think the CPUs in the PS5 & XSX/S can finally give us realistic looking destruction? I mean look at these physics demos that came out more than a decade ago, are we finally going to see video games with realistic looking destruction and I mean destruction that looks totally real?




Look at this, this was a destruction physics demo for 2008's Star Wars the Force Unleashed. This came out nearly 15 years ago think about that!!!! So will we finally see games that give us realistic looking destruction?



Before some of you say we've already had games with destruction like that. No I've never seen a game with destruction as good as this.
 
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kikkis

Member
Do you guys think the CPUs in the PS5 & XSX/S can finally give us realistic looking destruction? I mean look at these physics demos that came out more than a decade ago, are we finally going to see video games with realistic looking destruction and I mean destruction that looks totally real?




Look at this, this was a destruction physics demo for 2008's Star Wars the Force Unleashed. This came out nearly 15 years ago think about that!!!! So will we finally see games that give us realistic looking destruction?



Before some of you say we've already had games with destruction like that. No I've never seen a game with destruction as good as this.

No, power of the cpus is quite overblown. Ai is difficult to make work well with destruction and networked destruction is pretty much unsolvable problem due to speed of light being slow.
 

CamHostage

Member
Look at this, this was a destruction physics demo for 2008's Star Wars the Force Unleashed. This came out nearly 15 years ago think about that!!!! So will we finally see games that give us realistic looking destruction?

It was a destruction physics demo for tech being experimented with for in 2008's Star Wars: TFU. Play the actual game and there's only so much DMM in it, and the little that did get used had to be simplified over the demo. (Also, the first clip is not realtime BTW.)

DMM unfortunately didn't pan out for videogames as well as hoped; it was hard to work with and it dragged the game. They got to a happy point with some of its techniques combined with other tricks and effects. They put up big concrete slabs or tree huts made of 2x4s just to show rectangles breaking apart using the tech, and they mixed in common effects with DMM to give the full sense of destruction they had hoped for. Ultimately, it couldn't go much farther as it was, and DMM disappeared from games (despite still being in film production FX suites to this day, I believe.)

The effects aspirations of defining a material so that it breaks naturally has come into more modern physics approaches like Epic's Chaos for Unreal or NVIDIA Blast. Mostly they default to simulating glass/ceramics/stone because that's more commonly what you find in games (and the more doable breaks without the heaviness of physics engines hitting it hard,) but there are some parameters as well as some physics plugins or FX packages out there for wood as well.

Physics are unfortunately not the same playground for ideas that they were in TFU's day (and games get eaten alive if they have any wonky physics bug, so it's way easier to build a non-procedural physics effect which looks nice but behind the scenes is an animation or rigged sequence than it is to have fake rocks bouncing around the scene and causing errors,) so you don't see physics forefronted like back then. Also, even promising tech like Chaos Physics has not delivered the big boom as hoped. So I'm not sure who's out there ready to take a chance on a big, cool game full of physics systems. (For some reason, advancements in cloth seems to be way sexier in physics simulation these days than destruction, which is also needed, but is unlikely to make for cool gameplay.) And then, with But it's not been a dead end; unfortunately, it also has not been the hardware horsepower holding it back as much as game fans assumed when they dreamed of what next-gen platforms would do.

No, power of the cpus is quite overblown. Ai is difficult to make work well with destruction and networked destruction is pretty much unsolvable problem due to speed of light being slow.

It came up earlier in this thread or somewhere else (and unfortunately they didn't go into it much beyond just an aside,) but somebody was saying they were connected to either DMM or Euphoria at the time and were shown how the techniques of the engine actually worked, and that now they knew the "trick", it was hard to unsee the limitations. Can't be sure which that was, and I look at DMM and still see some impressive impact points and radiating fracture dependency, so maybe it wasn't DMM? There's some things I see in that demo that I think, Ah that's interesting but I could see how that could dead-end the tech, and other things I have a hard time understanding why games can't do it and if there's a trick to the simulation that makes it possible here but not everywhere.
 
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Aggelos

Member
We're getting there.
While the detail of the CGI commercial is unique, the graphical fidelity of the TLOU1 Remake is certainly showcasing progress towards another level of fidelity.





ovRe9FA.jpg




2ZygWYB.jpg
 
We're getting there.
While the detail of the CGI commercial is unique, the graphical fidelity of the TLOU1 Remake is certainly showcasing progress towards another level of fidelity.





ovRe9FA.jpg




2ZygWYB.jpg
You're posting a screenshot when in reality that CGI is a generation ahead of TLOU P1 when actually viewing it in motion.
 

blastprocessor

The Amiga Brotherhood
What do you guys make of this game? Looks way better than GOW. Like a cross between Plague's Tale and TLOU2. Way better textures and lighting than GOW, but the minimum specs are HD7870 which is basically the GPU that went into the PS4 though it did have 2.5 tflops thanks to higher clocks and all 20 CUs enabled.



Obviously the animations arent as good and thats where Sony studios talent comes in, but its great to to see no name studios produce incredible visuals like this.


Looks good getting TLOU2 vibes midway.
 

CamHostage

Member
What do you guys make of this game? Looks way better than GOW. Like a cross between Plague's Tale and TLOU2. Way better textures and lighting than GOW, but the minimum specs are HD7870 which is basically the GPU that went into the PS4 though it did have 2.5 tflops thanks to higher clocks and all 20 CUs enabled.



Obviously the animations arent as good and thats where Sony studios talent comes in, but its great to to see no name studios produce incredible visuals like this.


I mean... I guess?

To me, this looks like most UE fan project of kitbashed assets (I swear I recognize that shed and other assets, with some extra decals over them for growth and decay) and avatar replacement. This one has gameplay (most of those are just flythroughs of set locales,) but the attack sequences look to all be context-sensitive animated routines rather than a combat flow. Add in a cinematic filter, fill the ground with offset foliage, bathe it all in global illumination, get it running on the most powerful piece of hardware you can afford, and put it out as a trailer for a game you hope to get funded to actually make more than 5 minutes of.

It looks nice enough, but there's not a lot of artistry here, and even the technicals aren't knocking me down from what I'm seeing, other than that it's got an advantage in pure volume of detail since it's unspecific of what it's running on. (Min specs are 64-bit processor and operating system / Windows 7 SP1/8.1/10 - 64bit / Intel Core i5-3470 / AMD FX 4350 / 4000 MB RAM / NVIDIA GTX 670 / AMD Radeon HD 7870 / DirectX 11 / 20GB available... going to go out on a limb here and say, even if those specs are correct, the trailer ain't min-spec gameplay.)

This strikes me as just one of these projects where they can look good and even be good but look more and more alike these days, that the off-the-shelf nature is visible once you run into enough of the same thing. There's a couple things UE does really well all on its own with the right combo of available materials and knowhow, and everything else is the hard work of making your own unique game.

....But, that's my opinion. For those wanting to know more about this game, check their Twitter. (I can't tell from the tweets yet, but it's described as a "roguelite", I wonder if it's procedurally laid out and if that's what's catching me up in the genericness of the presentation?)

https://twitter.com/BlightSurvival
 
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Do you guys think the CPUs in the PS5 & XSX/S can finally give us realistic looking destruction? I mean look at these physics demos that came out more than a decade ago, are we finally going to see video games with realistic looking destruction and I mean destruction that looks totally real?




Look at this, this was a destruction physics demo for 2008's Star Wars the Force Unleashed. This came out nearly 15 years ago think about that!!!! So will we finally see games that give us realistic looking destruction?



Before some of you say we've already had games with destruction like that. No I've never seen a game with destruction as good as this.

Did that tech actually make it into the game on the ps3/360?
 

CamHostage

Member
Did that tech actually make it into the game on the ps3/360?

Yes and no.

That first DMM Crash demo was not realtime, and not an indicator of what they could do in realtime in games at that time. It was their tech, but it was their tech in CG for CG.

The Force Unleashed DMM demo was realtime on some type of hardware, but didn't quite work the way it did in this demo in the final game. "Wood acts like wood" kind of works for flat plywood and square 2X4s, but it necessarily didn't extend to actual wooded lands (which use a lot more of the standard fracturing process we're used to,) and from there some uses of DMM worked well while others not so much. It was at its core not something prepared to apply as video game technology ready to implement into a physics system without a lot of custom work, and so while it could do a couple cool things in realtime and overall is amazing tech for simulations (Pixelux and its DMM tech still exists today, in feature film CGI work,) their approach didn't carry on much further into realtime use in games.




The idea of defining an object/surface's physical properties, as wood or stone or metal or glass and having it behave like its properties, however, that dream is still alive and active; designers can assign Material ID to physics-interactive things in current game engines (mostly stone or glass or stuff like that,) and there are more advanced services available for simulating physics actions, to varying levels of reality.

...And hopefully we'll get a kick-ass game that really pushes the current implementation in new ways and shows off how these machines compute physics with a primary focus on coolness, because while a lot of what is in Force Unleashed has been improved upon in games today, almost nothing actually tries to show off the better tech being used. Force Unleashed still impresses today because so few games try to do what it did almost 15 years ago.
 
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alloush

Member
When can we expect games to look like this? I really believe in a few years we will get this level of fidelity.




Melhim Sfeir has done some pretty cool stuff in UE5, check his channel out!


Edit: check his Matrix Demo demo. God, I love The Matrix demo
 
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nkarafo

Member
Well, i didn't expect the Spiderman Remastered water/sea graphics to be so much worse than the original PS4 version, that's for sure.


Original:

DmalJIAWwAAVgqJ.jpg



Remastered:

Marvel_s_Spider_Man__Miles_Morales_20201024180003.jpg


That looks like something from the 360/PS3 generation of open world games. What the hell went wrong?
 
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Well, i didn't expect the Spiderman Remastered water/sea graphics to be so much worse than the original PS4 version, that's for sure.


Original:

DmalJIAWwAAVgqJ.jpg



Remastered:

Marvel_s_Spider_Man__Miles_Morales_20201024180003.jpg


That looks like something from the 360/PS3 generation of open world games. What the hell went wrong?
Is this the same area?
 

nkarafo

Member
It DOES matter for comparison sake…
Not sure what to tell you. Like i said, the water is the same in every part of the map. The point is the water effect itself is different.

Anyway, i got these screens off the internet. I only have the Remastered version myself but i remember the original looking better in this regard.
 
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GymWolf

Member
Well, i didn't expect the Spiderman Remastered water/sea graphics to be so much worse than the original PS4 version, that's for sure.


Original:

DmalJIAWwAAVgqJ.jpg



Remastered:

Marvel_s_Spider_Man__Miles_Morales_20201024180003.jpg


That looks like something from the 360/PS3 generation of open world games. What the hell went wrong?
MARIO WIIU is displeased.
 

alloush

Member
Well, i didn't expect the Spiderman Remastered water/sea graphics to be so much worse than the original PS4 version, that's for sure.


Original:

DmalJIAWwAAVgqJ.jpg



Remastered:

Marvel_s_Spider_Man__Miles_Morales_20201024180003.jpg


That looks like something from the 360/PS3 generation of open world games. What the hell went wrong?
Yeah that's odd honestly. Maybe they went with the "river" look in the remastered as opposed to the ocean-like look from the original? I am just speculating not giving any excuses or anything as it does look way better in the original.
 
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