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[cicero]

guffaw, why don't you read the Geek Feminism Wiki NERD

And note the pathetic logically fallacious argument listed on that Wiki entry where calls for civility are determined to be more legitimate or less legitimate based on the supposed "privileged" or "non-privileged" side of the argument, where supposed male "privilege" is already assumed. A conveniently applied standard where the truth of the conclusion or assumption is already assumed directly or indirectly?... Hurray!

 

[syllogism]

Because the weird sexualization that happens in character design in the gaming industry isn't something that just needs to be swept under the rug like that.

Dragon's Crown is only a single game guilty of it and we really need to start holding designers more accountable for what they do.

There is nothing weird about it and it's not going to stop, because there is and will be always be an audience for it

 

[Knux-Future]

Those two male characters are heavily exaggerated (especially the dwarf) but they are still done in a way where their bodies still seem to be proportional and aren't trying to play up the exaggerated features.

Meanwhile, the amazon and the sorceress both have exaggerated breasts, asses, and thighs, but everything else is super tiny and their poses are all based around the best ways to show those assets off.

And, again, the exaggeration argument really doesn't play when the other two characters aren't all that exaggerated.

I believe that the basic fantasy motifs seen in Dungeons & Dragons and the work of J.R.R. Tolkien have a style that is very attractive, and I chose to use some orthodox ones in my basic designs. However, if I left those designs as is, they won’t stand out amongst the many fantasy designs already in the video game/comic/movie/etc. space. Because of that, I decided to exaggerate all of my character designs in a cartoonish fashion.

I exaggerated the silhouettes of all the masculine features in the male characters, the feminine features in female characters, and the monster-like features in the monsters from many different angles until each had a unique feel to them. I apologize to those who were made uncomfortable by the art’s appearance, and did not see the same light-hearted fantasy in my designs

Each character has something super exxagerated on them based off of the bold.

Fighter: It is his chest
Dwarf: His Arms
Wizard: His face but he is also kinda tall.

Each of those are features of what are considered manly.

Elf: Her thighs and generally youthful appearance
Amazon: Her ass and muscles
Sorceress: Her breast...obviously.

those are features of what could be considered feminine .

He did what he set out to do.

So no it isn't bullshit because he has explained why he did what he did..

it's not only for sales....because if that was the case their probably wouldn't be any female characters....AND this game isn't going to sell to great.

The idea that the way to sell games is sex is just misguided. If that was the case Japan wouldn't ve doing so poorly in the west. Trash like X-Blades would sell like hotcakes.

I get that it is a problem...Mass Effect ass shot for no reason is just lol...but for this game? I'm not seeing it pass.."SHE HAS BIG BREAST AND IS IN SEXY POSES"...and to me that alone isn't harmful.

 

[Nairume]

Hopefully Kamitani has seen this article so he knows that there are plenty of people that love his art and don't want to see anything about it changed. He's a breath of fresh air in an industry that's become far too obsessed with realism.

I definitely agree that the industry's obsession with realism is also bad and we do need more fresh air breathed into the industry. And agan, I'm honestly okay with the style of the rest of the game. It's really just these two characters that I find disturbing and I really wish that the people wanting to defend the overall style could at least understand that you can still like the style but not like specific designs with it.

There's no reason for the sorceress to be walking T&A when he managed to make the elf look quite reasonable within his style.

 

[Risette]

Yeah well my imaginary girlfriend didn't.

lol

One of the few games she stopped for a few minutes to watch. She also liked some of the cutscenes, mostly the ones where Bayonetta is toying around with Luka.

 

[Jathaine]

I definitely agree that the industry's obsession with realism is also bad and we do need more fresh air breathed into the industry. And agan, I'm honestly okay with the style of the rest of the game. It's really just these two characters that I find disturbing and I really wish that the people wanting to defend the overall style could at least understand that you can still like the style but not like specific designs with it.

There's no reason for the sorceress to be walking T&A when he managed to make the elf look quite reasonable within his style.

There's nothing wrong with not liking the designs. No one thinks you have to! Pay attention for once, please.
What we do think is that trying to pass the designs off as harmful or sexist because you don't like them is what is juvenile, not the designs themselves.

 

[Devolution]

I definitely agree that the industry's obsession with realism is also bad and we do need more fresh air breathed into the industry. And agan, I'm honestly okay with the style of the rest of the game. It's really just these two characters that I find disturbing and I really wish that the people wanting to defend the overall style could at least understand that you can still like the style but not like specific designs with it.

There's no reason for the sorceress to be walking T&A when he managed to make the elf look quite reasonable within his style.

What could he honestly do to the male representations that would make the females okay? Are the females alienating because of the popular representation of women within the industry? Because it's pretty obvious to me they're exaggerated representations of the kinds of the subjects you'd see in fantasy art. You said the elf looks reasonable but you'd rather the other two be the same? He offers variety.

 

[BigDes]

There's nothing wrong with not liking the designs. No one thinks you have to! Pay attention for once, please.
What we do think is that trying to pass the designs off as harmful or sexist because you don't like them is what is juvenile, not the designs themselves.

Ever considered that they don't like the designs because they think it is sexist?

Because from your post here you seem to be implying that people who have spent a good amount of time in this thread talking about why they think it is sexist are lying

 

[Corto]

I definitely agree that the industry's obsession with realism is also bad and we do need more fresh air breathed into the industry. And agan, I'm honestly okay with the style of the rest of the game. It's really just these two characters that I find disturbing and I really wish that the people wanting to defend the overall style could at least understand that you can still like the style but not like specific designs with it.

There's no reason for the sorceress to be walking T&A when he managed to make the elf look quite reasonable within his style.

But there is a reason, one imperative reason. He wanted to.

 

[JordanN]

Ever considered that they don't like the designs because they think it is sexist?

Because from your post here you seem to be implying that people who have spent a good amount of time in this thread talking about why they think it is sexist are lying

Any reason to believe they're sexist?

The only argument being presented is "because breasts are big" which is not evidence.

 

[Devolution]

Any reason to believe they're sexist?

The only argument being presented is "because breasts are big" which is not evidence.

Like I said that's the issue with targeting specific characters. One can argue about the prevalence of sexually objectified characters within the industry but once you isolate any character regardless of context, conceptual art and refuse to look at the characters in aggregate, it becomes quite the slanted argument.

 

[partyphone]

Any reason to believe they're sexist?

The only argument being presented is "because breasts are big" which is not evidence.

Except that isn't the argument that anyone has been presenting?

Other things that are not being done:

1. Suggesting this game be censored
2. Saying this game should not exist
3. Claiming people who enjoy this game are bad people
4. Proposing that no games should ever have sexually attractive women

I'm probably missing something but I'm sure you can think of a few more.

 

[BigDes]

Any reason to believe they're sexist?

The only argument being presented is "because breasts are big" which is not evidence.

That you disagree with the evidence people have presented does not make them liars

 

[JordanN]

Like I said that's the issue with targeting specific characters. One can argue about the prevalence of sexually objectified characters within the industry but once you isolate any character regardless of context, conceptual art and refuse to look at the characters in aggregate, it becomes quite the slanted argument.

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? I can't make out the last bit.

 

[mullet2000]

https://twitter.com/pg_kamiya/status/328196361902231552

I love you, Kamiya. No apologies need to come out of the artists in situations like this.

 

[Devolution]

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with me? I can't make out the last bit.

Agreeing. I don't particular like that people chose this character to get on a soapbox about female representation in gaming.

 

[Jathaine]

Ever considered that they don't like the designs because they think it is sexist?

Because from your post here you seem to be implying that people who have spent a good amount of time in this thread talking about why they think it is sexist are lying

Thinking something is sexist doesn't make it so, unfortunately for them. Note the definitions of sexism even with the biased language in favor of women (which I oh-so-loathe) it does not support their argument that the design of the character is sexist.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexism

1.) prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2.) behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex



One character having large breasts does not show any sort of prejudice or discrimination. Women have breasts, sometimes they are large. In this case, they are large. And if we want to talk about her attire, then you'd actually probably be angering many feminists everywhere. Look up the "Slut Walk." Many women and especially feminists actually enjoy dressing however they want. Your puritanical views be damned. There's nothing sexist about her attire.

Now, definition two is probably what many are latching on to but I don't see how the Sorceress's social role has anything to do with her design. She still weaves magic and still has just as much agency to get things done as any other character in the game. (Have you seen her walk animation? She's one confident girl to boot!) She kicks ass and looks sexy while doing it. Why wouldn't a woman feel empowered by that?

 

[Devolution]

Thinking something is sexist doesn't make it so, unfortunately for them. Note the definitions of sexism even with the biased language in favor of women (which I oh-so-loathe) it does not support their argument that the design of the character is sexist.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sexism

1.) prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2.) behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex



One character having large breasts does not show any sort of prejudice or discrimination. Women have breasts, sometimes they are large. In this case, they are large. And if we want to talk about her attire, then you'd actually probably be angering many feminists everywhere. Look up the "Slut Walk." Many women and especially feminists actually enjoy dressing however they want. Your puritanical views be damned. There's nothing sexist about her attire.

Now, definition two is probably what many are latching on to but I don't see how the Sorceress's social role has anything to do with her design. She still weaves magic and still has just as much agency to get things done as any other character in the game. (Have you seen her walk animation? She's one confident girl to boot!) She kicks ass and looks sexy while doing it. Why wouldn't a woman feel empowered by that?

Because in most cases the character isn't made for us to feel empowered, they're made for the male gaze, that's not particularly empowering. Your arguments in here are pretty weaksauce.

 

[Jathaine]

Because in most cases the character isn't made for us to feel empowered, they're made for the male gaze, that's not particularly empowering. Your arguments in here are pretty weaksauce.

This argument is actually weaker, in my opinion.
Because something is not made for a specific purpose exactly doesn't mean that it can't do it. You've essentially said nothing.

 

[JordanN]

Except that isn't the argument that anyone has been presenting?

Other things that are not being done:

1. Suggesting this game be censored
2. Saying this game should not exist
3. Claiming people who enjoy this game are bad people
4. Proposing that no games should ever have sexually attractive women

I'm probably missing something but I'm sure you can think of a few more.

Are you sure? Then why did I make so many replies to people telling them character design was not sexist?

For example.

It's not only for the fact she has big breats.

I doubt I would even be in this thread if NO ONE was calling big breasts sexist. Now if only the search function looked for names.

 

[Devolution]

This argument is actually weaker, in my opinion.
Because something is not made for a specific purpose exactly doesn't mean that it can't do it. You've essentially said nothing.

It's not weaker. It just doesn't support your ridiculous assertions. Should I quote your ridiculous earlier post basically insulting women as merely jealous?

 

[Giolon]

Except that isn't the argument that anyone has been presenting?

Other things that are not being done:

1. Suggesting this game be censored
2. Saying this game should not exist
3. Claiming people who enjoy this game are bad people
4. Proposing that no games should ever have sexually attractive women

I'm probably missing something but I'm sure you can think of a few more.

1) Saying that the character should not have been designed this way and the wish that she weren't or weren't present is effectively the same thing. External censorship vs self-censorship through shame, calling the design harmful and sexist, has the same chilling effect. This has happened in Jason's articles and this thread.

2) Not the game, but the character. See point #1. This has happened.

3) Insinuating or flat out stating that the people who like this character design are either teenagers, mental teenagers, or pedophiles would qualify as attempting to shame people who created or like these designs. This has happened in this very thread.

4) But they shouldn't be too sexual, right? Because that would be bad. That's what this very thread is about. She's too sexual. She's too over the top. Every character is over the top in their own way.

 

[Jathaine]

It's not weaker. It just doesn't support your ridiculous assertions. Should I quote your ridiculous earlier post basically insulting women as merely jealous?

Go ahead and do so, I stand by my statement.
I don't think it is empowering for women, I just don't understand why it isn't. The fact that a character wasn't made for the express purpose of doing so doesn't really explain anything. I'm pretty sure power feel empowered by characters that weren't created to empower them all the time.

Its a very weak and meaningless argument.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Go ahead and do so, I stand by my statement.
I don't think it is empowering for women, I just don't understand why it isn't. The fact that a character wasn't made for the express purpose of doing so doesn't really explain anything. I'm pretty sure power feel empowered by characters that weren't created to empower them all the time.

Its a very weak and meaningless argument.

You only think it's weak because you're jealous.

 

[Devolution]

Go ahead and do so, I stand by my statement.
I don't think it is empowering for women, I just don't understand why it isn't. The fact that a character wasn't made for the express purpose of doing so doesn't really explain anything. I'm pretty sure power feel empowered by characters that weren't created to empower them all the time.

Its a very weak and meaningless argument.

Sometimes they are but that's not really the point. Your idea that just because a character is sexy and can kick butt makes her automatically empowering is a ridiculous idea. I don't find every comic book female particularly empowering because most of them are not written or designed for me. Usually I'm kicked right out of any sort of immersion with a game where the gender disparity in clothing/armor is so evident. I rarely think "oh this is so empowering how the female characters in this game have their vitals exposed." Quite the opposite really.

 

[AlucardGV]

https://twitter.com/pg_kamiya/status/328196361902231552

I love you, Kamiya. No apologies need to come out of the artists in situations like this.

kotaku article incoming!

 

[partyphone]

1) Saying that the character should not have been designed this way and the wish that she weren't or weren't present is effectively the same thing. External censorship vs self-censorship through shame, calling the design harmful and sexist, has the same chilling effect. This has happened in Jason's articles and this thread.

2) Not the game, but the character. See point #1. This has happened.

3) Insinuating or flat out stating that the people who like this character design are either teenagers, mental teenagers, or pedophiles would qualify as attempting to shame people who created or like these designs. This has happened in this very thread.

4) But they shouldn't be too sexual, right? Because that would be bad. That's what this very thread is about. She's too sexual. She's too over the top. Every character is over the top in their own way.

I think that too many characters are designed this way and I wish it wasn't as prevalent.

I said that the design is a juvenile fantasy. Not that the people who like it are stupid little kids for liking it. I enjoy dick and fart jokes but it would suck if most comedians only told dick and fart jokes.

 

[Jathaine]

Sometimes they are but that's not really the point. Your idea that just because a character is sexy and can kick butt makes her automatically empowering is a ridiculous idea. I don't find every comic book female particularly empowering because most of them are not written or designed for me. Usually I'm kicked right out of any sort of immersion with a game where the gender disparity in clothing/armor is so evident. I rarely think "oh this is so empowering how the female characters in this game have their vitals exposed." Quite the opposite really.

Now we're gettin' somewhere. This actually makes a bit of sense and I can see how in some contexts you might not feel a strong attachment to a character for these reasons but wouldn't you agree that this isn't necessarily sexist but simply not to your taste? What about the women who enjoy dressing similarly to the sorceress (obviously not the same attire because that's not modern fashion, but I mean that like to wear low-cut tops and so on)? Do you believe they feel the same way that you do?

 

[Giolon]

I think that too many characters are designed this way and I wish it wasn't as prevalent.

I said that the design is a juvenile fantasy. Not that the people who like it are stupid little kids for liking it. I enjoy dick and fart jokes but it would suck if most comedians only told dick and fart jokes.

I didn't say that you said these things, just that they had all in fact been said in the discussion and in this thread.

I agree - more variety would be great (not to mention the variety this title & VW's other games provide). Hanging this title and character out to dry? Misguided at best.

 

[Vdragoon]

I think that too many characters are designed this way and I wish it wasn't as prevalent.

I said that the design is a juvenile fantasy. Not that the people who like it are stupid little kids for liking it. I enjoy dick and fart jokes but it would suck if most comedians only told dick and fart jokes.

well, sir, good thing there are a good variety of games then.

 

[Metroidvania]

That you disagree with the evidence people have presented does not make them liars

What evidence is there in this regard? That some people (both male and female) feel offended or turned off from playing? That their mother wouldn't approve?

That's a matter of preference of your opinion on having big breasts fly around.

Women are not being harmed or discriminated from playing with the option of the Sorceress as one of the three female choices. She is not the only 'option'. (Perhaps an argument based around her being the only female caster, but that could be construed as moving the goalpost).

Something like reducing agency or limiting female characters in games to certain 'roles' such as eye candy or rescue-motivation (especially without proper reasoning/character building) is sexist. Using a character's physical characteristics taken without greater context (as Devo has already stated) make for a much more murky argument.

Is it juvenile, and tasteless? Possibly, depending on how you view it. But how is it specifically sexist?

 

[terribletwo]

@Jathaine if you had to guess IRL what percentage of women desire to have bigger breasts?

 

[Jathaine]

@Jathaine if you had to guess IRL what percentage of women desire to have bigger breasts?

I wouldn't and I don't care.
It doesn't even matter.

 

[BigDes]

What evidence is there in this regard? That some people (both male and female) feel offended or turned off from playing? That their mother wouldn't approve?

That's a matter of preference of your opinion on having big breasts fly around.

Women are not being harmed or discriminated from playing with the option of the Sorceress as one of the three female choices. She is not the only 'option'. (Perhaps an argument based around her being the only female caster, but that could be construed as moving the goalpost).

Something like reducing agency or limiting female characters in games to certain 'roles' such as eye candy or rescue-motivation (especially without proper reasoning/character building) is sexist. Using a character's physical characteristics taken without greater context (as Devo has already stated) make for a much more murky argument.

Is it juvenile, and tasteless? Possibly, depending on how you view it. But how is it specifically sexist?

What evidence is there that the people arguing that this character is sexist have ulterior motives?

 

[Neuromancer]

This whole ugly affair could have been avoided if game artists were compelled to send their character designs to Jason for approval first. He could be the Will Hays of the video game industry, and clean it up one niche Japanese fantasy brawler at a time.

 

[Weltall Zero]

You know I apologized for calling Kamitani a 14-year-old in my story on Tuesday, right? It was a mistake. I will continue to make mistakes, as will you, as will everyone else who is a fallible human being. You are welcome to remember my mistakes. I certainly will. And I'll learn from them, and use them to try to make myself better.

Your "apology" was worded like this:
"First, I should make it clear that I do not actually believe that Kamitani is a 14-year-old boy, and I apologize for the insult. My point should have been clearer."
It was the twelveth paragraph (third page) of an article titled "The Real Problem With That Controversial, Sexy Video Game Sorceress [UPDATE]" where paragraphs three to eight explained the offensive "homophobic" joke Kamitani played at your expense.

I hope you'll excuse me if I'm not exactly sensing much regret or shame behind your actions, and certainly not from offending Kamitani.

Ever considered that they don't like the designs because they think it is sexist?

Because from your post here you seem to be implying that people who have spent a good amount of time in this thread talking about why they think it is sexist are lying

The implication is that there is no correlation between both facts. Indeed, you can dislike them because you think they are sexist, but the relevant part there (and most importantly, the one that you need to prove) is that they are sexist. The line you quoted was, in turn, a reply to a poster that said we should understand that he and other people don't like them, and henceforth the reply that that's perfectly OK. Saying "but I don't like them because they are sexist" is mixing two statements together when there's no need. Simpyl discuss whether they're sexist or not, independent of your personal like or dislike of them, which is irrelevant.

There's also a further point, which is whether they should exist or not, which IS equivalent to whether they should be censored or not (the fact that censorship comes from the author or external agencies is entirely irrelevant; shaming an author into self-censorship is the functional equivalent of any other form of censorship).

So, to sum it up (and as a bonus state my opinion on each).
1) Liking the designs (I for one still don't like the Sorceress that much, but I'm starting to come to terms with the fact this comes from my own preconceptions).
2) Thinking they are sexist (I'm still making up my mind about this; there are very strong arguments for and against it; currently leaning on "mostly not" or "not intentionally").
3) Thinking they should not exist / should be censored (absolutely not in any way or form; they add something artistically unique, even the Sorceress, but even if they didn't, all art should be protected except on the most extreme cases).

 

[Devolution]

Now we're gettin' somewhere. This actually makes a bit of sense and I can see how in some contexts you might not feel a strong attachment to a character for these reasons but wouldn't you agree that this isn't necessarily sexist but simply not to your taste? What about the women who enjoy dressing similarly to the sorceress (obviously not the same attire because that's not modern fashion, but I mean that like to wear low-cut tops and so on)? Do you believe they feel the same way that you do?

I don't have a problem with the Sorceress specifically because she's part of a game where exaggeration and a specific art style are employed. Where I start to feeling alienated is prevalence of sexual objectification and like I mentioned in this thread and numerous others, the designs in games where they're fighting alongside men in bikini armor. This coupled with flat characters, generic characters, characters without agency and the lack of female protagonists has left me feeling isolated. Oh and the retooling of various good female protagonists into emotional messes hasn't really helped either. What usually happens is I play a game and just tolerate bad female design for the sake of the game. At this point in my life I don't even do that, I just kind of sigh at the constant mediocrity and ignoring of my particular demographic despite how many women do game. Then I get to read how we're just jealous or exaggerating the problem of not being represented well in games. Twist the knife, thanks.

 

[Knux-Future]

What evidence is there that the people arguing that this character is sexist have ulterior motives?

I hope no one actualy believes that there is some ulterior motives at play here (although some seem content on pushing their agenda no matter what...but that goes for both sides here).

The issue is that we or rather I haven;t heard any compelling arguments on why this character is harmful or sexist passed the fact that she has giant boobs and is sexual.

To me that isn't a good enough reason alone...because a sexual character with giant breasts or whatever isn't harmful. The reasons for why or how it can be harmful all seem like reaches. It is just a poor example of an issue that I think/hope most people know exist. This is not the game or design to pinpoint.
That is what I hope most people are trying to explain.

Sexism exists in this industry....this is not one of those examples.

 

[Hoya Destroyer]

Damn, this game looks sweet. Too bad it s not coming out on the 360.

 

[michaelius]

https://twitter.com/pg_kamiya/status/328196361902231552

I love you, Kamiya. No apologies need to come out of the artists in situations like this.

That's the proper spirit

 

[Jathaine]

I don't have a problem with the Sorceress specifically because she's part of a game where exaggeration and a specific art style are employed. Where I start to feeling alienated is prevalence of sexual objectification and like I mentioned in this thread and numerous others, the designs in games where they're fighting alongside men in bikini armor. This coupled with flat characters, generic characters, characters without agency and the lack of female protagonists has left me feeling isolated. Oh and the retooling of various good female protagonists into emotional messes hasn't really helped either. What usually happens is I play a game and just tolerate bad female design for the sake of the game. At this point in my life I don't even do that, I just kind of sigh at the constant mediocrity and ignoring of my particular demographic despite how many women do game. Then I get to read how we're just jealous or exaggerating the problem of not being represented well in games. Twist the knife, thanks.

I can certainly see it when we're talking about bikini-mail (especially when there are no alternatives) when the males are all in actual protective battle attire and things like taking once powerful characters (or at least ones we made out to be strong in our minds) and basically making them subservient like in 'A Certain Metroid Game."

I'd never disagree with you on those points, but that's not really what this topic's about. This one's about a big-boobed Sorceress with some cleavage. The Amazon doesn't even wear half as much as the Sorc and she's hardly even talked about in comparison. Its clear that the focus is on the breast... that's why I see this case as little more than breast envy for most people decrying the design.

 

[Metroidvania]

What evidence is there that the people arguing that this character is sexist have ulterior motives?

I don't think they have an ulterior motive aside from trying to better the industry and make it more accessible for everyone.

But I do think that it's a mis-attribution of taking feelings of discomfort/unease with a concept such as having large boobs, and attaching it into sexism, which has (through articles and posts here in this instance) then been directed towards both the author and people who enjoy the art, especially given the powerful societal sense of shaming which accompanies it.

 

[frequency]

Controversial opinion ahead:

This might be an oversimplification of things but I think the perceptions of sexualization of men and women in video games are perceived differently due to one key factor. Sadly, I believe that factor might simply be jealousy.
Its far more commonplace for a woman to get jealous of another woman's body or have some sort of body-image issues. So of course women and people who claim to be more sensitive to women's issues will take offense to anything that may be 'harmful' to their self-image despite the fact that we tend to have sexy male characters too. This, of course, is explained away as 'male-power fantasy' (as laughable as that is.)

Its not like men don't have these issues either but to a much lesser degree, I honestly feel this has to do with the female hug-box that is feminism. I'll say it plainly; I am anti-feminist. I am not anti-fairness, simply anti-feminism because I don't believe that feminism promotes fairness between the sexes despite what the dictionary definition says.

I really hate that feminism seemingly encourages people to sit back and complain about problems rather than going out and fixing them. If every single person who had a major problem with the way female characters are designed and portrayed got together to fund and/or create games that promote positive female leads/characters/depictions rather than just armcharing it, we'd see something happen. If the market decides this is what is wanted, the sales will happen and that'll open even more doors.

Unfortunately, for the "business" of third wave feminism to stay aloat, it must convince us that women are in fact oppressed and simply do not have the agency to go out there and create. I don't buy into that. There's another thread on the subject and clearly some people do, but I actually have a bit more respect for women than to think that they can't get by in the industry as it stands now. People just have to try and we don't need things like feminism coddling them.

Throughout all the discussions in at least the past year here on NeoGAF about this topic, I've disagreed with a lot of people. But I always thought that it was something they just didn't understand or it just doesn't bother them (why should it? Most of them are men who are being catered to). Never once did I think or accuse anyone of misogyny (I'm not sure I've ever even typed the word here in NeoGAF).

But that post of yours. That is misogyny.

Note: I have no problem with the sorceress or Dragon's Crown or Jason in general. But that was just a disgusting post.

 

[QisTopTier]

I remember when this thread was actually going places last night, guess the usual suspects just went to sleep though.

oh and Jathaine. That "Controversial Opinion" was freaking stupid as hell. You are like Nega-Lime.

 

[michaelius]

considering the extreme negative reaction schreier got from this piece i can't say it looks like he did it for popularity's sake

He wanted to hop on the sexism bandwagon and the thing backfired in his face badly.

 

[Jathaine]

Throughout all the discussions in at least the past year here on NeoGAF about this topic, I've disagreed with a lot of people. But I always thought that it was something they just didn't understand or it just doesn't bother them (why should it? Most of them are men who are being catered to). Never once did I think or accuse anyone of misogyny (I'm not sure I've ever even typed the word here in NeoGAF).

But that post of yours. That is misogyny.

Note: I have no problem with the sorceress or Dragon's Crown or Jason in general. But that was just a disgusting post.

If a dislike of feminism is misogyny then that's me all day. But if it is a hatred of women, then no.

oh and Jathaine. That "Controversial Opinion" was freaking stupid as hell. You are like Nega-Lime.

That this is the most anyone's been able to actually say about it doesn't really change my opinion in the slightest, but thanks for your opinion.

 

[QisTopTier]

If a dislike of feminism is misogyny then that's me all day. But if it is a hatred of women, then no.

You don't get it, a lot of Feminist and supporters of it VIEW IT AS AN EQUAL OPPERTUNITY MOVEMENT. You are basing your judgement on the extremist. The extremist IN ANY GROUP ARE NEVER EVER A VOICE FOR THE MAJORITY.

It's not a hard thing to understand.

 

[Jathaine]

You don't get it, a lot of Feminist and supporters of it VIEW IT AS AN EQUAL OPPERTUNITY MOVEMENT. You are basing your judgement on the extremist. The extremist IN ANY GROUP ARE NEVER EVER A VOICE FOR THE MAJORITY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

The movement takes no effort to separate itself from its extremists and tends to protect them. Actions speak much louder than words. So long as people like "Big Red" are defended by feminists, I consider them to all be unified because they consider themselves to be unified.

Not to mention radfems aren't the only ones I have problems with unless you consider organizations like NOW to be "radical" for doing things like lobbying against no fault divorce and so on.

 

[JordanN]

If a dislike of feminism is misogyny then that's me all day. But if it is a hatred of women, then no.

I can see where you're coming from with feminism although I would like to make an important statement.

Feminism at its root is good for everyone. It's equality.

Feminism shouldn't even be opposed to Dragon's Crown. Character designs are not sexist no matter how loud people try and shout it.

 

[VanillaCakeIsBurning]

I guess I'm going against what I posted previously about not adding to the maelstrom, oh well.

I don't really get the empowerment thing. I'm guessing it means when you feel good when you have fearsome abilities in a game?

For me personally, playing God of War 3 I didn't really feel all that powerful. I understand Kratos is supposed to be some uber badass but the gameplay didn't really reflect that too much to my liking. The game was pretty competent as an action game and you did kill a lot of stuff but I didn't feel POWERFUL. Like I didn't get that euphoric feeling when you do something in a game and think "HOLY SHIT THIS IS AWESOME".

I got that in spades in Bayonetta. The over the top nature of the game and the moves you pull off gave me that euphoric feeling. So in the only way I can understand empowerment I'd say I definitely felt empowered playing Bayonetta while grinning from ear to ear the entire time.

Other people may have had different experiences which is why it seems to be that empowerment is a user-generated quality versus one that's inherent in the design of a character. Actually I wouldn't even say the character design leads to empowerment, but the gameplay itself and how your actions affect the environment and enemies.