ZZZZ
Member
Just Look at the shitty movies though. LOOK AT EM.
Don't forget he worked as a producer "final eye" on both:
Band of Brothers my favorite tv series of all time. 94critic - 98User Rotten Tomatoes
The Pacific: 91 -85 Rotten Tomatoes
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All The Last of Us 2 leaks/spoilers in here and nowhere else.
- Thread starter DonJorginho
- Start date
- News Spoilers
Band of Brothers my favorite tv series of all time. 94critic - 98User Rotten Tomatoes
The Pacific: 91 -85 Rotten Tomatoes
Dr. Samuel Hayden
Member
Explosive Zombie
Banned
You didn't challenge me on this issue, though? Your arguments for why the story/development don't work BORED me.
KURDISTAN YPG
Member
I hope next time neil druckman is on stage at fans event he gets booed coldly - What a fkn peasent
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
You clearly don't want to listen to anything outside of your own opinion and have criticized peoples take of Joel as a character and anyone who thinks differently than you of the character. Your defense is always half baked and falls back on being "bored" or "I don't buy it," without actually giving anyone else's opinions a second of consideration. Thats your right and your prerogative.
Helscream
Banned
I remember years back when David Jaffe gave a lecture (was either GDC or Pax, cant remember) when people gave him alot of shit because he stated that games should focus on gameplay and what makes the medium unique instead of trying to focus on story. If only more game developers understood this sentiment.
Also David Jaffe was calling out the bullshit of gaming journalism YEARS ago. Before gamers at large really started to catch wind of how trash gaming journalism is.
"fuck you, your paid"
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Werewolf Jones
Member
Beat the game.
Take the entirety of Santa Barbara out. It's a blemish on the game that shouldn't exist. Neil needs QC and not yes men. The final battle and cutscene following it were NOT good.
Everything else I was on board with the entire time, it's what I wanted. From 6 hours in when you chase Nora to the Abby vs Ellie boss fight was really fucking good. I can't believe he had it all in the bag and couldn't help himself and blew it. What the FUCK were you thinking?
Still better than the first game but even as whack as the first games ending is, it's infinitely better. Whew.
Take the entirety of Santa Barbara out. It's a blemish on the game that shouldn't exist. Neil needs QC and not yes men. The final battle and cutscene following it were NOT good.
Everything else I was on board with the entire time, it's what I wanted. From 6 hours in when you chase Nora to the Abby vs Ellie boss fight was really fucking good. I can't believe he had it all in the bag and couldn't help himself and blew it. What the FUCK were you thinking?
Still better than the first game but even as whack as the first games ending is, it's infinitely better. Whew.
ZZZZ
Member
Glad you enjoyed, did you have any problems with the pacing at all?
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Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
VG247 is a pro SJW style blog, no different than Kotaku or Polygon.
I am of the opinion that if someone enjoyed it, then good for them. I am glad they were to find something about the game that they could connect to and really love. However, the issue is that a lot of the "defenders" of the game are also calling anyone who disagrees with them as alt-right, incels, gamergaters, sexists, misogynists, racists, transphobes, etc. If you disagree with them, you always hated the game and therefor your opinion means shit. They are the kind of person who instantly moves to insults. We know who these folks are, they are in this thread and every thread that is related to Naughty Dog. They can't fathom that someone would have a different opinion than them.
I love FFXV, but I won't insult people if they disliked it or hated it. I loved FF7R, but same thing. I didn't like TLOU, but I won't shit on someone for liking it.
Mate, you were the one who needed to chill. You were being openly condescending and rather insulting with your post.
The Mad Draklor
Member
This thread is locked, but this kind of mindset is the reason why a lot of people are tired of the sycophancy.
The assumption that people don't like TLOU2 because they are Xbox fanboys or want Playstation to go down is nothing more than an emotional ad hominem. That instant assumption of ulterior motives other than what is simply people just finding the story to be very bad is part of why there is a backlash.
The assumption that people don't like TLOU2 because they are Xbox fanboys or want Playstation to go down is nothing more than an emotional ad hominem. That instant assumption of ulterior motives other than what is simply people just finding the story to be very bad is part of why there is a backlash.
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MiguelItUp
Member
That's been the oddest thing with the reception. There's a ton of intense defensive knee-jerk reactions. I just love hearing people's genuine thought's on the game, rather than just "OH, IT'S TRASH!" or "OH, IT'S REMARKABLE!". Especially with something clearly so divisive, but whatever, really ain't that important to me. Especially when asking questions resorts to people practically throwing text-based temper tantrums.
I can relate to that. I absolutely adored RDR2, but that was after I pushed through what I felt were pacing issues in the game. At one point it just felt like there was too much, and the campaign was droning. Pushed through it and it immediately picked back up. I feel in love with it almost immediately, haha. It was such a wild shift.
I had the hardest time trying to figure out if RDR2 or GOW was my GOTY, haha.
ZZZZ
Member
That thread is just sad....
Still it does make sense, the ps4 sold really well so by the end of this generation it's expected that we have a rabid fanbase sniffing for blood in every corner of the internet.
Werewolf Jones
Member
Near the end I was getting a bit fatigued after focusing on it for the last 4 days but I was fine aside from that. It is overly long. You got TLOU2&3 in this game and the DLC epilogue that isn't good.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
You clearly don't want to listen to anything outside of your own opinion and have criticized peoples take of Joel as a character and anyone who thinks differently than you of the character. Your defense is always half baked and falls back on being "bored" or "I don't buy it," without actually giving anyone else's opinions a second of consideration. Thats your right and your prerogative.
No, we factually were not arguing about critical consensus. My defense of what? What am I defending? I did give your opinions consideration and decided they were boring, you can always prove me wrong by saying something truly interesting, though.
ZZZZ
Member
Still waiting on a decent price drop, i'm from Brazil and they are charging a fortune for the game here on steam.That's been the oddest thing with the reception. There's a ton of intense defensive knee-jerk reactions. I just love hearing people's genuine thought's on the game, rather than just "OH, IT'S TRASH!" or "OH, IT'S REMARKABLE!". Especially with something clearly so divisive, but whatever, really ain't that important to me. Especially when asking questions resorts to people practically throwing text-based temper tantrums.
I can relate to that. I absolutely adored RDR2, but that was after I pushed through what I felt were pacing issues in the game. At one point it just felt like there was too much, and the campaign was droning. Pushed through it and it immediately picked back up. I feel in love with it almost immediately, haha. It was such a wild shift.
I had the hardest time trying to figure out if RDR2 or GOW was my GOTY, haha.
Usually because our country is economically weaker, we have a minor but still big price adjustment on games for us so it's more affordable.
Not with RDR2, i hope by the end of the year i'll be playing it.
Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
That's been the oddest thing with the reception. There's a ton of intense defensive knee-jerk reactions. I just love hearing people's genuine thought's on the game, rather than just "OH, IT'S TRASH!" or "OH, IT'S REMARKABLE!". Especially with something clearly so divisive, but whatever, really ain't that important to me. Especially when asking questions resorts to people practically throwing text-based temper tantrums.
I can relate to that. I absolutely adored RDR2, but that was after I pushed through what I felt were pacing issues in the game. At one point it just felt like there was too much, and the campaign was droning. Pushed through it and it immediately picked back up. I feel in love with it almost immediately, haha. It was such a wild shift.
I had the hardest time trying to figure out if RDR2 or GOW was my GOTY, haha.
Yep. I just wish these folks (both sides, tbh) can simply say "hey, that is your opinion and I respect that." Instead they say "lol, they are fucking wrong." No you dumb cunt, they aren't wrong. They have a different opinion on a piece of media and that is okay! Stop getting your knickers in a bunch because they don't share yours. Some see SJW agenda in the media, others don't. Some enjoyed the game, others didn't. Some thought the action was brutal and visceral, others thought it was just... there and nothing spectacular. All those opinions are perfectly valid to have.
MiguelItUp
Member
I absolutely loved it. It's just REALLY easy to get burnt out on if you're not careful, the game throws TOO much at you sometimes IMO. Some people had the issue with RDR, I feel it happened more so in 2 just because of its size and the amount of things to do, haha. If anything, stay on the main campaign, and come back to the side stuff. Unless you know for a fact you know where your comfort zone is in terms of juggling the two, haha.
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The Mad Draklor
Member
Here's the kicker. I find TLOU2's story to be a narrative failure and I never owned an Xbox system. I have a PS4 Pro and have several games like Horizon, Persona 5, and the Uncharted series. But no, I must be rooting for the fall of Playstation
MiguelItUp
Member
Right?! Plus, y'know, being on a forum why not talk about those things cordially? Oh? No? Fuck that? Okay, well, why are we even here?
I swear a lot of the conversing and discussion aspects just flew out the window and resorted to the verbal equivalent of children slapping each other's hands. At this point I'm just ready for TLOU2's hype to blow passed so we can move onto other things that hopefully won't have a similar outcome.
ZZZZ
Member
i doubt it, i'll get burn out on a game on pc because of pacing or something like that.
Honestly, if i a game starts pissing me off too much on the pacing aspect, i just turn on cheat engine and speedhack the game to oblivion.
Edit: I remember playing shadow of tomb raider, and by the time i was back tracking across that stupid village for the 5th time, i was already moving like sonic.
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Fully agree with the first part, wholly disagree with the second.
Of course in a debate you consider the others opinion as wrong. That's where arguments and discussion comes in. Not being able to respect an opinion or/and arguing in bad faith, THAT'S whats bad.
So yes, I fully respect others opinion as long as they can argue it, but I'm not about to suddenly say they're *right*. For me TLOU2 has objectively bad writing. That's something that I stand by.
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i think i did not hate ellie on any way or time, she was doing what i would do too, revenge, but abby she was getting my sympaties there or she was like becoming human too there. i hated abby at first hated to play for her at first but then i saw her as human too how she is how she become and evolve and i started to like her. doesnt matter look more like who she became.
ZZZZ
Member
Did you watch Sleepezi theory videos on FF7R? Maybe they are too much for some but i dig it, they get me so hyped for some weird reason i can't even explain.
Edit: He does have a huge crush and obsession with Minerva, not gonna lie.
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Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
I have not. Not into a lot of those theory videos, would rather develop my own. Super excited regardless to see where this goes.
yes, I do agree that in a debate you can have an opinion that is wrong - however in the context of what I am talking about and the meaning of these reviews - I can't say that those opinions are wrong. Someone isn't *wrong* if they liked the game. Someone isn't *wrong* if they hated the game. Someone isn't *wrong* if they felt nothing for the game. That is the point I am trying to get across. Apologies if it wasn't clear.
ZZZZ
Member
I'm usually not into theory videos as well, but his for some reason i find it special, the amount of work he put into editing is unreal, and the research he does is out of this world.
He reminds me a lot of VaatiVidya on his early days to be honest.
Are you worried part 2 is going to be cross-gen? I hear people saying they want it late 2021 - early 2022, and a release date like this would probably mean cross-gen.
I wish they would take their time and release it next gen only already updated to UE5. I wouldn't mind a late 2023 or 2024 release date.
What's your opinion on it?
That's still all in the eye of the individual. Ignoring that is just pretense.
You don't need to make this complicated and speak in a hypothetical. There's rules here for any good debate, like:
- Stand by your opinion
- Argue and defend your opinion
- Take the opponents arguments seriously and reflect on them. Possibly accept or reject certain arguments.
Aside from that treat your opponent with respect and use actual arguments when in a debate.
Doubly so here, nothing against shitposting by yourself, but when engaged in an actual argument do it right.
Saying *Oh, in a waaaay we're ALLLL right* helps nobody. It doesn't contribute to a discussion, it isn't honest, it isn't going to resolve anything, it's utterly useless.
Sorry, for the rant and I get what you're actually mad at. The people just shitposting *No, you're a dumb idiot* *No, u* And I agree, it's terrible (though we often fall into that trap ourselves).
But I've encountered that type of thinking too often in Real Life which led to mismanagement and broken relationships (that could have gone differently), so I'm a bit emotional about it too.
Edit: (BTW: There's also quite a few well argued posts from both sides in this thread, so thankfully its not all bleak)
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Valonquar
Member
Welp I can report turning off motion blur & camera shake completely removed all motion sickness from the game. Yay. Beat the game this morning. Overall story was... just okay. Way too many tropes to list, but I didn't feel the WOKENESS was as overdone as many are complaining about. Sort of the same as Watchmen HBO: Went in expecting way more woke bs than was present, ended up being about to enjoy it just fine.
Pros: Very pretty environments. Cutscene models looks amazeballs. Rat King boss and the 2 Elle vs Abby fights were intense. Great sound design and music. Weapon upgrading was neat, but not nearly enough materials in 1 playthrough.
Cons: Illusion of openess but way super linear in most places. Real world location "Shen Mu" drawer item hunting got old FAST. Seeing the exact same 2 stealth kill animations 200+ times got real old. Revenge vs Regenge plot super muddled with lack of common sense. If Elle or Abby actually attempted to say ANYTHING to each other, it would have been so much better. The entire game story felt unnecessary. This was a sequel that didn't really need to be made.
Pros: Very pretty environments. Cutscene models looks amazeballs. Rat King boss and the 2 Elle vs Abby fights were intense. Great sound design and music. Weapon upgrading was neat, but not nearly enough materials in 1 playthrough.
Cons: Illusion of openess but way super linear in most places. Real world location "Shen Mu" drawer item hunting got old FAST. Seeing the exact same 2 stealth kill animations 200+ times got real old. Revenge vs Regenge plot super muddled with lack of common sense. If Elle or Abby actually attempted to say ANYTHING to each other, it would have been so much better. The entire game story felt unnecessary. This was a sequel that didn't really need to be made.
Revolutionary
Member
I just got the Good Ending by letting Abby get shot in the fucking face by Ellie in the theater and honestly, I'm pretty content with leaving it like that.
rofif
Banned
I've been continuing to play and started Abby day 1.... is this just as long as Ellie 3 days ?
And wow is this game badly written and just idiotic. My points so far:
-They (writers) make everything to make Ellie look like devil incarnate. She kills dogs, psp playing teens, shows no remorse, smokes weed, is stupid and acts dangerously for her friends.
-Meanwhile, the gorilla lady had sad past, throws the dog a ball and pets him, rescues zebra, have many nice friends and so on... I mean fucking c'mon.
-Despite all the efforts to make Abby seem "just like Ellie but on the other side" it completely does not work. She should understand that Joel is not a bad man, that he saved his "child" and he even saves her. She does not even allow him quickly death but tortures him.
-Abby has huge arms and the funniest, stiffest running animation. What is even going on
-No shit Ellie kills pregnant lady. She did not knew about her pregnancy and she was defending herself
-The pregnant lady is just there to be killed. Who's stupid writing idea was for army to send her to the front and they are all fine with it.
-The Abby group is just a fanatic military. I cannot sympathies with that and their slogans
Anyway - I understand what they were trying to do but it's all done so badly, so contradicting itself and just blatantly in Your face... it's done without any creativity or or even good twists .
In comparison to first game simple message, it's just painful. You don't know if Joel did bad or good thing at the end but You understand why he did this.
And a special point goes to:
-The slowest gameplay ever. They take controls and camera from You all the time. Even when someone is just saying few words. ALL THE TIME You give up the game for game to say very little. The pacing is crazy bad.
On a plus side:
+The graphics are very good (not incredible and one tone) -Can't turn off film grain? It's quite aggressive
+The stealth is good
+Firefights, melee, screams of enemies, gore. it's all fucking amazing. Really well done.
And wow is this game badly written and just idiotic. My points so far:
-They (writers) make everything to make Ellie look like devil incarnate. She kills dogs, psp playing teens, shows no remorse, smokes weed, is stupid and acts dangerously for her friends.
-Meanwhile, the gorilla lady had sad past, throws the dog a ball and pets him, rescues zebra, have many nice friends and so on... I mean fucking c'mon.
-Despite all the efforts to make Abby seem "just like Ellie but on the other side" it completely does not work. She should understand that Joel is not a bad man, that he saved his "child" and he even saves her. She does not even allow him quickly death but tortures him.
-Abby has huge arms and the funniest, stiffest running animation. What is even going on
-No shit Ellie kills pregnant lady. She did not knew about her pregnancy and she was defending herself
-The pregnant lady is just there to be killed. Who's stupid writing idea was for army to send her to the front and they are all fine with it.
-The Abby group is just a fanatic military. I cannot sympathies with that and their slogans
Anyway - I understand what they were trying to do but it's all done so badly, so contradicting itself and just blatantly in Your face... it's done without any creativity or or even good twists .
In comparison to first game simple message, it's just painful. You don't know if Joel did bad or good thing at the end but You understand why he did this.
And a special point goes to:
-The slowest gameplay ever. They take controls and camera from You all the time. Even when someone is just saying few words. ALL THE TIME You give up the game for game to say very little. The pacing is crazy bad.
On a plus side:
+The graphics are very good (not incredible and one tone) -Can't turn off film grain? It's quite aggressive
+The stealth is good
+Firefights, melee, screams of enemies, gore. it's all fucking amazing. Really well done.
ZZZZ
Member
Wow, i thought i was the one writing it, agree 90%.
I don't agree with your take on Ellie vs Abby fights, the first one is pretty comical watching Ellie fall for the bottle and brick trick, i just started laughing as usual. And the end boss fight is like playing janken but without paper.
ZZZZ
Member
yep it's just as long as Ellie's.
Roni
Gold Member
Santa Barbara is for Ellie what the tutorial in Jackson was for Abby.
It comes full circle, they both left everything good behind to go fuck shit up and cause more misery.
Instead of finding Abby living peacefully and happy as Abby herself had found Joel, Ellie instead found her captured and tortured by a group of slavers.
In the end, that's the entire payoff of the game: Ellie finally realizes the world will fuck people up without any need for intentional help.
She didn't need to come for Abby, she was already in hell.
Seattle was a disaster for Abby's life, mostly because of what happened in Jackson.
Santa Barbara was disaster for Ellie, mostly because of what happened in Seattle.
Werewolf Jones
Member
Ellie is the antagonist btw.
Anyone simping for Joel in the YouTube comments doesn't really get the game but yeah. NOT MY PROTAGONIST NOOOOOOO.
The game never gave me conflicting emotions, I have no dislike for Ellie. I understand why she wanted to do what she did, but she got nothing out of it in the end and lost everything. Just letting Abby go in the final moment for no reason other than the brief glimpse of Joel playing guitar is just bad. There needed to be more rhyme or reason. If she utters the words "Nothing I've done will bring him back. Just fucking go." It would have been a self reflection at least.
Abby started this and she also lost everything and Ellie giving her a new start would be good if written better but it's like Neil just said fuck it. I don't get it.
Anyone simping for Joel in the YouTube comments doesn't really get the game but yeah. NOT MY PROTAGONIST NOOOOOOO.
The game never gave me conflicting emotions, I have no dislike for Ellie. I understand why she wanted to do what she did, but she got nothing out of it in the end and lost everything. Just letting Abby go in the final moment for no reason other than the brief glimpse of Joel playing guitar is just bad. There needed to be more rhyme or reason. If she utters the words "Nothing I've done will bring him back. Just fucking go." It would have been a self reflection at least.
Abby started this and she also lost everything and Ellie giving her a new start would be good if written better but it's like Neil just said fuck it. I don't get it.
Silent Duck
Member
That is crazy to me. I find it hard to believe that anyone can say that Saving Private Ryan and Schindler's list (both directed by Spielberg) are bad movies.
Though I will give you Lost World: Jurassic Park. That movie put the ass in jurassic.
I also agree with Druckman that TLOU2 is not Schindler's List. It is also not Godfather Part II (which Druckman claimed was an influence).
If we were to compare it to movies, I would consider it more in the class of Highlander 2 and RoboCop 3.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
I remember someone saying Ellie was 12 hours and Abby was 8 hours. So 20 total. So not a 50/50 split. Ellie will be more
But depends how fast you are getting through the game. The streamer QXC got through the entire game live in less than 17 hours total including all cut scenes and getting killed sometimes.
lastmessiah
Member
That scene at the end where Lev the Tortured Tranny gets cold-cocked by Big Bad Bigoted White Dude is hilarious, makes it all worth it.
MrS
Banned
Credits just rolled. The game is just magnificent. I am jealous of everybody who still has to play through it for the first time. Love everything about it and can't wait to play NG+ on survival. Story really killed me at times and the scenes with Ellie and Joel had so much earned emotional weight. Their last scene together and the scene in the spaceship absolutely destroyed my emotions and I was crying buckets. Great media does that, and that's certainly what TLOU2 is. GOTG by some distance for me.
Roni
Gold Member
I agree, it doesn't work, but I'd argue it's because it is not even what they tried to do. Abby's story is much closer to what Joel's was, not Ellie's.
Yeah, fuck Neil for that opening and fuck him twice for all those flashbacks with Joel... Right in my feels. I loved it.
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Dr. Claus
Vincit qui se vincit
Don't really care, to be honest. I just want a good game. They can release it on the PS2 and I will still get it if its good. I never thought the development would take 4-5 years for a follow up. 2-3 years at most given they have most of the character models, story, and engine figured out. Just putting the pieces together essentially.
That is crazy to me. I find it hard to believe that anyone can say that Saving Private Ryan and Schindler's list (both directed by Spielberg) are bad movies.
Though I will give you Lost World: Jurassic Park. That movie put the ass in jurassic.
I also agree with Druckman that TLOU2 is not Schindler's List. It is also not Godfather Part II (which Druckman claimed was an influence).
If we were to compare it to movies, I would consider it more in the class of Highlander 2 and RoboCop 3.
I would compare it to The Last Jedi for me. A film that had a lot of potential, but failed at writing believable situations and retconning character motivations to push a political agenda.
Audiophile
Member
I should have turned the game off after Joel and Ellie got out of the space capsule.
I really wanted to give the benefit of the doubt on this one but what a goddamn car crash, I'm so pissed at how they've treated these characters. I feel sorry for all the incredibly talented artists and programmers who built the fundamentally good parts of this game; and it being dragged down with this narrative. Not to mention most fans of the original game.
I bought the game to play primarily as Ellie and once I realised I was playing with Abby for nearly half the game (along with her own flashbacks that fell flat) I damn near lost the will to go on. Joel, Ellie and Tommy carry so much weight and significance because of the wonderful interplay, struggle and charm in the original game and the many hours spent with them there, with a common, singular goal driving the narrative forward. Abby and her friends carry no weight other than "look, it's not black and white, they're people too"; I didn't need nearly half the game -- a vastly inferior half btw -- to work that out.
They sacrificed the identity of the entire ip and characters so that vapid, shallow people can think it's profound to say "durrrhhh, revenge cycle bad...". Not to mention the level of dissonance and lack of logic required for any of it to hold weight. A narrative<>gameplay dissonance is fine in a game like Uncharted were the tone is lighter, but when you're going for hyper-real and dark it really doesn't work. I fear the straw man "you're a bigot defense" will be wheeled out in response to any valid criticism (à la Ghostbusters 2016), while people bask in how "deep" it all is.
This is GOT Season 8 Daenerys Targaryen bad, but even more incoherent, ham-fisted and uncharacteristic. As far as I'm concerned the only cannon is Part I and a few of the flashbacks, I'll forever be trying to bleach the rest of Part II from my memory.
Anyway, considering some of the outright lies by the devs, the misleading advertising/trailers and the Abby bait and switch halfway through; I'm returning for full refund and stating false advertisement. I'll be getting Days Gone instead.
Man, what a [narrative] fall from grace.
I really wanted to give the benefit of the doubt on this one but what a goddamn car crash, I'm so pissed at how they've treated these characters. I feel sorry for all the incredibly talented artists and programmers who built the fundamentally good parts of this game; and it being dragged down with this narrative. Not to mention most fans of the original game.
I bought the game to play primarily as Ellie and once I realised I was playing with Abby for nearly half the game (along with her own flashbacks that fell flat) I damn near lost the will to go on. Joel, Ellie and Tommy carry so much weight and significance because of the wonderful interplay, struggle and charm in the original game and the many hours spent with them there, with a common, singular goal driving the narrative forward. Abby and her friends carry no weight other than "look, it's not black and white, they're people too"; I didn't need nearly half the game -- a vastly inferior half btw -- to work that out.
They sacrificed the identity of the entire ip and characters so that vapid, shallow people can think it's profound to say "durrrhhh, revenge cycle bad...". Not to mention the level of dissonance and lack of logic required for any of it to hold weight. A narrative<>gameplay dissonance is fine in a game like Uncharted were the tone is lighter, but when you're going for hyper-real and dark it really doesn't work. I fear the straw man "you're a bigot defense" will be wheeled out in response to any valid criticism (à la Ghostbusters 2016), while people bask in how "deep" it all is.
This is GOT Season 8 Daenerys Targaryen bad, but even more incoherent, ham-fisted and uncharacteristic. As far as I'm concerned the only cannon is Part I and a few of the flashbacks, I'll forever be trying to bleach the rest of Part II from my memory.
Anyway, considering some of the outright lies by the devs, the misleading advertising/trailers and the Abby bait and switch halfway through; I'm returning for full refund and stating false advertisement. I'll be getting Days Gone instead.
Man, what a [narrative] fall from grace.
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DanielMann861
Member
Regarding the ending
I think the gravest mistake it makes come the end is the fact that neither protagonist actually follows through and kills the other. If you're trying to blur the lines between who is the real protagonist and who is the real antagonist then you almost have to have one kill the other so there can be inner conflict about who was right and who was wrong or was it all just senseless?
You have to make the player feel conflicted about what they did. But the game removes all agency from the player and never allows the player to actually make an independent choice of their own that could potentially transcend the material. And the fact that the ending doesn't have the balls to actually follow through with what it sets up is the biggest cop out of all.
I think the gravest mistake it makes come the end is the fact that neither protagonist actually follows through and kills the other. If you're trying to blur the lines between who is the real protagonist and who is the real antagonist then you almost have to have one kill the other so there can be inner conflict about who was right and who was wrong or was it all just senseless?
You have to make the player feel conflicted about what they did. But the game removes all agency from the player and never allows the player to actually make an independent choice of their own that could potentially transcend the material. And the fact that the ending doesn't have the balls to actually follow through with what it sets up is the biggest cop out of all.
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Explosive Zombie
Banned
That is crazy to me. I find it hard to believe that anyone can say that Saving Private Ryan and Schindler's list (both directed by Spielberg) are bad movies.
Though I will give you Lost World: Jurassic Park. That movie put the ass in jurassic.
I also agree with Druckman that TLOU2 is not Schindler's List. It is also not Godfather Part II (which Druckman claimed was an influence).
If we were to compare it to movies, I would consider it more in the class of Highlander 2 and RoboCop 3.
The only reason you can dismiss my view as a troll is due to popular consensus, which makes it awfully weird you'd attempt comparing TLOU II to stuff like Highlander 2 and RoboCop 3, we have a term for that, it's called cognitive dissonance. Haven't actually seen Schindler's List, doubt I'd enjoy it... Private Ryan was pretty good when I was 13 years old but nowadays it's so far down the best war movies list, maybe it's not bad, though, besides those book-end scenes.
ZZZZ
Member
I think what ND wanted, is to give a lesson on the cycle of revenge to bring everybody down into the mud where they basically lose almost everything, and then at the end learning to forgive and letting it go because there's no point to it anymore, and after going through their journey you are supposed to love and care about both Ellie and Abby at that point in the game, so you will end up feeling empathy for both and cry a river.
Didn't work for me, i'll tell you that much.
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Isa
Member
I just beat this overly drawn out game myself. It is impressive at parts, and odd at others. Its overall gameplay is fine, but as the game kept dragging on the gameplay started to show its age and limitations. The loop is fine for a while but in the end I grew tired of the usual walk-a-thons for some character banter. There are soooooo many moments where the game makes us play traversal sections that are good if not laughably videogame-y, meanwhile trying to sell a believable narrative. Unfortunately I feel they hurt their storytelling when attempting to portray a movie, yet continuously put us back in another small level layout circa 8-12 years ago.
My main gripes with the gameplay are the repeated, heavily repeated use of the studios old tricks. Such as moving to another area and SURPRISE! Somebody or something pops out disarming the player making us seem so fragile after building us up to murderhobo gods. Second, for as much hype the game got from the press for its nausea inducing voice acting nothing really impressed me. Speaking about enemy deaths ofc. Overall I tired of the game loop and was wishing it would end, not a good thing, whereas Days Gone I wanted more hordes and stuff. And Jesus save me from ANOTHER F*ing platform or floor breaking. And flashbacks within flashbacks.
As for the story, it was mostly well directed, but it really felt like a soap opera. Melodrama galore, and honestly I'm stunned that in the end I HATED Ellie. I way preferred Abby and her story over the others. I greatly dislike the lack of player choice in everything. Say what you will of poorly animated(often not) games like rpgs and VN's but at least I the player wasn't subjected to being forced to "play" somebody else's narrative by mashing square to murder somebody I never would have. The game just falls off the rocker I'm left not only unfulfilled but agitated. I gave them an honest shot but I will think twice before buying another Naughty Dog game, which is saying a lot coming from a LONG time fan. At this point I kind of think ND has not only been outclassed by other studios(within and without Sony WWS), but they would do well to really reflect on the progress made by other developers in both gameplay and storytelling.
Now I need to go play some colorful lighthearted Japanese games to wash the filth from my mind and soul. Fuckin' hell.
My main gripes with the gameplay are the repeated, heavily repeated use of the studios old tricks. Such as moving to another area and SURPRISE! Somebody or something pops out disarming the player making us seem so fragile after building us up to murderhobo gods. Second, for as much hype the game got from the press for its nausea inducing voice acting nothing really impressed me. Speaking about enemy deaths ofc. Overall I tired of the game loop and was wishing it would end, not a good thing, whereas Days Gone I wanted more hordes and stuff. And Jesus save me from ANOTHER F*ing platform or floor breaking. And flashbacks within flashbacks.
As for the story, it was mostly well directed, but it really felt like a soap opera. Melodrama galore, and honestly I'm stunned that in the end I HATED Ellie. I way preferred Abby and her story over the others. I greatly dislike the lack of player choice in everything. Say what you will of poorly animated(often not) games like rpgs and VN's but at least I the player wasn't subjected to being forced to "play" somebody else's narrative by mashing square to murder somebody I never would have. The game just falls off the rocker I'm left not only unfulfilled but agitated. I gave them an honest shot but I will think twice before buying another Naughty Dog game, which is saying a lot coming from a LONG time fan. At this point I kind of think ND has not only been outclassed by other studios(within and without Sony WWS), but they would do well to really reflect on the progress made by other developers in both gameplay and storytelling.
Now I need to go play some colorful lighthearted Japanese games to wash the filth from my mind and soul. Fuckin' hell.
DanielMann861
Member
Nope, didn't work for me either.
But I do see what you're saying and I almost think that could have slightly worked if they had cut out the real ending and went with the faux ending of Ellie, Dina and the kid on the farm. Splice in the final flashback with Ellie telling Joel she wants to try and forgive him and it may have worked on that level. Like Ellie learns to let go of her survivors guilt and accept the gift that was given to her while making the statement that it's never too late to let go of hate and forgiveness is key. I could see that working with the faux ending and the spliced in flashback.
I don't know if people still would have accepted that. But at least it could have worked thematically. Which is why the ACTUAL real ending is so frustrating to me. Because it feels like it shits the bed and makes the whole game pointless.
That's why the ending is so frustrating. I honestly believe he wanted to try and say something with this game, but he didn't know when enough was enough. And given the actual ending we have, well, if he's trying to blur the lines between who is right and wrong then he failed. If he's trying to tout the message that forgiveness is key, he also kind of falls flat by not knowing when to quit while he was ahead.
Eh, this game has so many problems. It really does. It feels like it needed someone to actually challenge Druckman and question what it was he was doing.
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ZZZZ
Member
Maybe i would give it a 4 instead of a 2 if the game ended at the farm. Just the fact that they are at an isolated farm, with new zombies that migrate in hordes and you know, bandits, lunatics, fanatics because when we played through the game there was hundreds of those, now of a sudden you are safe in a place like that? Where by chance a dozen bandits could find you by accident. Yeah, i'll move it up to a 3.
ZZZZ
Member
Yikes, grammar.
Sucks being a noob, can't edit.
English is not my first language, i apologize.