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Boy refuses to live as male; parents seek help of therapists, opt for delayed puberty

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E

EmCeeGramr

Member
Monocle said:
Wow, is that some kind of record? I've never seen so much gray in one thread. It's especially weird now that the inaccurate title has been changed.
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I'm pretty sure it's nearly twice the size of the Epic Mickey bannings.
 
S

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
EmCeeGramr said:
I'm pretty sure it's over twice the size of the Epic Mickey bannings.
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57. I believe both the Penny Arcade and Epic Mickey were in the 20's, Epic Mickey maybe being low 30's at best.
 
E

EmCeeGramr

Member
shintoki said:
57. I believe both the Penny Arcade and Epic Mickey were in the 20's, Epic Mickey maybe being low 30's at best.
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Just checked, Epic Mickey was 27 or 28.

EDIT: I remember the PA thread, but not the title. "Penny Arcade ban thread" brings up a million different things.
 
G

Gaborn

Member
Neuromancer said:
Damn there were some decent people in there too. I assume most of these will be temporary. Did they get banned for obviously not having read the OP, or for being intolerant, I wonder?
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based on sheer numbers presumably both.
 
Monocle

Monocle

Member
ezekial45 said:
This is how I feel about it to be honest. Puberty is a rough period for everyone, of all genders. But to push off till a later date, who knows when that will, when the kid decides on which gender to go with and then getting the child off the chemicals when he's made the transition just sounds very concerning to me. What if he has second thoughts after actually experiencing puberty?
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Plenty of formative experiences are bound to occur if you're a young person in a social environment, whether or not you're undergoing puberty.
 
G

GoutPatrol

Forgotten in his cell
shintoki said:
57. I believe both the Penny Arcade and Epic Mickey were in the 20's, Epic Mickey maybe being low 30's at best.
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Penny Arcade? When was this? I only thing I can think of off-hand that would lead to that many bannings is when they first priced the Xbox arcade games.

I wonder if all the bannings were for the same amount, or if some are perm'd. I wouldn't expect PhoenixDark, Phoenix, or ToxicAdam to be gone long.
 
S

Souldriver

Member
Neuromancer said:
Damn there were some decent people in there too. I assume most of these will be temporary. Did they get banned for obviously not having read the OP, or for being intolerant, I wonder?
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Obviously people didn't read the OP, and just posted knee jerk reactions based on the shitty thread title. There are a lot of banned people who I wouldn't really suspect of being homo/transgender phobic. This thread was a minefield for everyone who didn't research the story a little.
GoutPatrol said:
Penny Arcade? When was this? I only thing I can think of off-hand that would lead to that many bannings is when they first priced the Xbox arcade games.

I wonder if all the bannings were for the same amount, or if some are perm'd. I wouldn't expect PhoenixDark or ToxicAdam to be gone long.
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I think it got something to do with the abortion comic PA had made. But I could be wrong, as I've also only heard about the "Penny Arcade bans" through other gaffers.
 
Angry Fork

Angry Fork

Member
I read some of the pages but couldn't read the entire thing. Did those people get banned because they didn't read the entirety of the article before giving their opinion or something?

I noticed most if not all the bannings were people opposed to this, how come they were wrong for opposing? I would go through the thread but 20 pages is too much I'd appreciate a synopsis. I don't really know anything about this transgender issue but I'm interested.
 
O

Orayn

Member
Angry Fork said:
I read some of the pages but couldn't read the entire thing. Did those people get banned because they didn't read the entirety of the article before giving their opinion or something?

I noticed most if not all the bannings were people opposed to this, how come they were wrong for opposing? I would go through the thread but 20 pages is too much I'd appreciate a synopsis. I don't really know anything about this transgender issue but I'm interested.
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People didn't get banned for opposing this, strictly speaking, but saying that it was child abuse or that the parents should be jailed, killed, etc.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Angry Fork said:
I read some of the pages but couldn't read the entire thing. Did those people get banned because they didn't read the entirety of the article before giving their opinion or something?

I noticed most if not all the bannings were people opposed to this, how come they were wrong for opposing? I would go through the thread but 20 pages is too much I'd appreciate a synopsis. I don't really know anything about this transgender issue but I'm interested.
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Nah, I'm opposed to this (well....more that I'm not entirely for this) and I'm fine, it was more people who were opposing it and calling it "child abuse", "send them to jail", etc.

I mean, I'm very curious to see the results of this five years down the line from a scientific standpoint, I just don't think that its certainly going to be a good thing.
 
E

EmCeeGramr

Member
GoutPatrol said:
Penny Arcade? When was this? I only thing I can think of off-hand that would lead to that many bannings is when they first priced the Xbox arcade games.

I wonder if all the bannings were for the same amount, or if some are perm'd. I wouldn't expect PhoenixDark, Phoenix, or ToxicAdam to be gone long.
Click to expand...
Souldriver said:
Obviously people didn't read the OP, and just posted knee jerk reactions based on the shitty thread title. There are a lot of banned people who I wouldn't really suspect of being homo/transgender phobic. This thread was a minefield for everyone who didn't research the story a little.

I think it got something to do with the abortion comic PA had made. But I could be wrong, as I've also only heard about the "Penny Arcade bans" through other gaffers.
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Someone posted it, (I had just found it myself).

PA made a comic about how they didn't really "get" the hype for MGS4 and their blog post insinuated that they didn't like the series past 2 and they still had nothing to play on their PS3s. This was 2008, so the SDF went fucking insane: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=310442
 
F

FoneBone

Member
Angry Fork said:
I read some of the pages but couldn't read the entire thing. Did those people get banned because they didn't read the entirety of the article before giving their opinion or something?

I noticed most if not all the bannings were people opposed to this, how come they were wrong for opposing? I would go through the thread but 20 pages is too much I'd appreciate a synopsis. I don't really know anything about this transgender issue but I'm interested.
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It's not because they were opposing it in and of itself, but because they were either using ugly transphobic rhetoric, or making it obvious that they hadn't bothered to read anything other than the thread title (see: 99% of the "child abuse" posts).
 
Z

Zaptruder

Banned
The_Technomancer said:
Nah, I'm opposed to this (well....more that I'm not entirely for this) and I'm fine, it was more people who were opposing it and calling it "child abuse", "send them to jail", etc.

I mean, I'm very curious to see the results of this five years down the line from a scientific standpoint, I just don't think that its certainly going to be a good thing.
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It's making the best of an unideal situation.

It is what is morally right in this situation.

Assuming people subscribe to my ideas of morality, where been informed and making decisions that are reversible when uncertainty prevails form cornerstones of the moral framework.
 
E

Enco

Member
They say it’s too soon to tell what the side effects of the treatments may be
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One reason for this not getting my support. The child seems to have something up with them mentally (according to the doctors).
 
L

LegendofJoe

Member
After reading through about half of this thread I fully support the bans that were handed out by the mods. Just about everyone I saw that was banned were either being willfully ignorant, bigoted, or simply did not read the posted article or OP. These are things that should not be tolerated in discussion forums and the moderators did a good job making that clear with the bannings.
 
E

Eyeh4wk

Member
m0dus said:
Any suppression of testosterone can have far reaching implications in males in terms of bone health/osteoporosis, psychological effects on libido, depression, sense of well-being, Anemia, coronary artery disease, etc. Whether or not they are given 'normal' or 'high doses' of meds like lupron does not necessarily determine the possibility of these complications.

In the setting of childhood development, the effects of even mild suppression with 'low' or 'adequate' doses could result in unpredictable and lifelong consequences related to at child's general health, not just gender. It's not a treatment course to be approached lightly.

I deal with a number of patients with GID (granted, they are adults, not children). Truth of the matter is, it's not a choice even an adult can make lightly-- you have to undergoe a psychosocial evaluation, be well established with a psychiatrist and counsellor, as well as a primary care physician in addition to an endocrinologist. The whole OMG FOX NEWS LESBIAN PARENTS issue aside, I think if you have established GID in the setting of a significant history of gender dysmorphic behavior, i suppose treatment is a consideration. But I doubt we have e whole story here.
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This deserves to be quoted.
 
G

Gvaz

Banned
likeGdid said:
Like, every member who has been banned carries a scarlet letter list of offenses committed on their profile? Well, actually I may be thinking too far on that one

But it would be kind of hilarious, regardless
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Not to derail but I like this on SomethingAwful:

saforums6u79.png


Also everyone has a rap sheet anyone can view at any time for anyone.
 
C

ChocolateCupcakes

Member
I think the parents did all they could but its obvious the boy was insistent so they had to do something about it. I can't help but worry about the repercussions since I would imagine that the procedure is not 100% risk free but they have experts working with him. I think the parents are doing their best even though many would consider it extreme but they pretty much had to make an extreme choice since the kid wanted to mutilate himself.
 
S

samus i am

Member
CHEEZMO™ said:
"Lesbian Couple give 11 year-old boy hormone blockers so that he may decide his gender"
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Which makes it seem like this is being forced upon the kid. But I feel no sympathy for those banned since they can read that the child wants to be a girl so bad he talks about mutilating his genitals.
 
K

Kinyou

Member
CHEEZMO™ said:
"Lesbian Couple give 11 year-old boy hormone blockers so that he may decide his gender"
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The funny part is that even the Fox News article had a tamer headline than that.
 
L

Levyne

Banned
The original title doesn't seem so bad, it's implying that the child is deciding on a gender, not the parents.

What am I missing? The fact that the parents are lesbian isn't relevant but still included in the title which may or not imply a connotation of believing in some agenda? Or some such?

I may be missing something obvious, I apologize.
 
D

Dr.Palutena

Member
mrklaw said:
potential TG minefield ahoy, but shouldn't you be referring to the child as 'him'? No decision has been made yet?
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You usually refer to people in this situation by the gender they identify with.
 
J

JoeBoy101

Member
JGS said:
Found this older story on the matter. Thought it was pretty decent and even handed. Not quoting so as not to giveaway any particular bias beyond what I've already said. I will say that this article helps me to see a more logical view in favor of it.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90273278
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Thanks for linking to that. Alot of good details in there.

I will say, I'm still not fully supportive of it. The process is asking for a lot of maturity out of a child and then a teenager over a major life altering decision. I sympathize why it needs to be made earlier, especially from a biological standpoint, but quotes like this:

"Once we officially knew that [Armand] was transgender it was like, 'What do you need? You tell us.' We weren't going to try to control anymore; we'd been doing that for years. So it was like, 'What do you need? What do you want?' " Danielle says.
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That's an 11 year old being asked this. Its not a gender issue so much as a maturity issue I'm having here.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Zaptruder said:
It's making the best of an unideal situation.

It is what is morally right in this situation.

Assuming people subscribe to my ideas of morality, where been informed and making decisions that are reversible when uncertainty prevails form cornerstones of the moral framework.
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The way I see it, there are two courses of action:
-Put him on hormone therapy to give him time to decide, and hope side effects are minimal.
-Let him go through puberty and see what happens.
Maybe puberty screws with his gender identity, making life difficult. But maybe it helps him realize that he's male, and he wants to stay male.
Maybe hormone therapy gives him the time to think over things more and come to terms with himself. Maybe it just extends the period of confusion, or has effects on his physiology.

On the balance, I tend towards the option that involves the least interference. Neither option is "right", but I do think I disagree with this course of action.
 
S

Seda

Member
Khold said:
The original title doesn't seem so bad, it's implying that the child is deciding on a gender, not the parents.

What am I missing? The fact that the parents are lesbian isn't relevant but still included in the title which may or not imply a connotation of believing in some agenda? Or some such?

I may be missing something obvious, I apologize.
Click to expand...

I kind of agree with you here.

Now if it said "forces" instead of "gives", then that would be completely different.

It was enough to get people to jump to poor conclusions, whatever.
 
K

Kusagari

Member
Most of the bans were deserved. The number of people doing a hit and run calling the parents sick monsters who needed to be arrested/killed and acted like they were forcing this on the kid was disgusting.
 
Amibguous Cad

Amibguous Cad

Member
JoeBoy101 said:
That's an 11 year old being asked this. Its not a gender issue so much as a maturity issue I'm having here.
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The problem is that any decision, including inaction, has significant life-long consequences.

You decide to do nothing? Super, she might spend five years dealing with serious body dismorphism issues and in 5 years she decides she really does want to transition. She carries entirely preventable mental scars from the time of trying to be a gender she's not, and she has a more difficult time passing because of the changes puberty made in her body.

You block puberty? At least you let hir wait until ze's a little older and more mature to make the decision of which gender to be, but you risk significant health complications and deprive hir of the socialization that being near others of hir gender around the time of puberty provides. And probably make hir social life difficult in the meantime.

You transition now? You take a moderate risk of health complications and risk her changing her mind.

We might not want an 11 year old to have to make thee kind of decisions, but hir biological clock is forcing a decision, no matter what.
 
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