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Competitive Super Smash Bros. Melee Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Anth0ny
- Start date
Melee rules are expected/10, didn't think those would change whatsoever and glad they didn't lol.
theprodigy
Member
rofl at "amiibos are banned" getting its own line
edit: wait a minute, I just noticed the Smash 4 stages aren't separated into starter/counterpick, accident or intentional?
edit: wait a minute, I just noticed the Smash 4 stages aren't separated into starter/counterpick, accident or intentional?
I forgot what it's called, but somebody suggested on twitter that every stage should be considered a neutral, and players stage strike until one stage is left. I think that's what EVO is going for.
theprodigy
Member
well that would be nice, but nobody has said anything about it, so...
As a Melee member occassionally playing and looking into the Smash 4 scene I can totally agree with this point of view, even if I think it's exagerrated.
What do you guys think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqKjtECbOc
(Video Title: Why Smash 4 Will Die)
I honestly think Smash 4 has EVO to prove itself. It's really hard for me to play it these days, but if I see some hype matches at EVO I'd immediately change my tune. Until then It's going to be Melee all the way, just hoping M2King or Zero do a video responding to this.
What do you guys think?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNqKjtECbOc
(Video Title: Why Smash 4 Will Die)
I honestly think Smash 4 has EVO to prove itself. It's really hard for me to play it these days, but if I see some hype matches at EVO I'd immediately change my tune. Until then It's going to be Melee all the way, just hoping M2King or Zero do a video responding to this.
ZSaberLink
Media Create Maven
It's terribly exaggerated and Omni's doing a disservice to the community with his rant. His point about playing the game and figuring it out rather than complaining about it is good. His point about the game being very new 5 months in is correct. However, he then contradicts himself with everything else talking about how we should all agree on some ruleset and only then things will be fine. He hurts it by just deeming it campy 5 months in when I think Dabuz is the primary reason for that. Early competitive Melee videos are honestly a lot worse than what Smash4 is now. Remember, for the longest time, there was a debate about using ITEMS in competitive Melee. That didn't hurt the community, and eventually the sides came to an agreement and items were removed.
Basically it's premature, and a lot of it comes from this silly attitude that each game needs to be played like the previous. With Melee, folks were open to learning new things and made an amazing competitive game very different than Smash 64. Brawl had some unfortunate traits that really ruined the competitive scene, but more than anything I think the expectations for it to be the same as Melee hurt the game much earlier than that. I feel like Smash 4, which has gotten rid of a LOT of the roadblocks that Brawl introduced (tripping, infinite chain grabs), is being demonized because it's not played like Melee. A lot of folks are still trying to play the game like Melee/Brawl when it's not either of those games (the # of times I've seen people trying to ledge hog still is pretty funny). I'm not saying folks should or need to like it, but it's way too early to judge Smash 4 imo. I haven't seen quite a few of the Link techs I'm aware of being used in tourneys, yet people complain "there's not as many techs in Smash 4 compared to Brawl/Melee even though we've only spent 5 months with this new game".
Also it's kind of silly to have this discussion when over 1000+ players are interested in Smash4 & Melee each for EVO, making the largest Smash tourneys ever. That's bigger than either game has EVER been, and yet we're thinking things are going badly? It's really silly if you ask me. In addition, I'm not sure if you watched some of the top 16 matches of Smash 4 at APEX (Top 8 were boring though), but some of the matches were a good bit of fun (Amsa vs. Ally in top 16 as an example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-RRq5yMpTc). It's also fun seeing Nairo as Dark Pit completely murdering Mew2King's Diddy.
Yeah, Amsa made me interested in the game because of his aggressive style with top notch spacing, then I saw the the top 8 matches and was immediately put off. I don't blame the players for playing that way. It just nerfed the whole game for me. I really think EVO is Smash 4's moment to shine so I hope people make it epic.
If M2K or Zero comment on this video I'd definitely appreciate a link.
Personally though, having started going to to tournaments late 2004, we may have played with janky stages, but I never experienced item play and matches were epic immediately. I still have my name tag from MOAST 3 (January 2005) because the grand finals were so good.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/MOAST_3
This set has some pretty epic moments for taking place in January 2005
Grand Finals Ken vs Isai 1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh3RTOnbrZ8
Zero, M2K, or any other big Smash 4 player hasn't really talked about the video. Zero and a lot of Smash 4 people have been talking about the state of Smash 4. Zero's been trying to get everyone on the same page and to stop trying to trash the game.
Anyway, ZSaberLink is right, EVO is Smash 4's second national and it already got a 1000+ entries. That's the 3rd biggest Smash tournament ever, and the only two bigger are APEX 2015 for Melee, and EVO 2015 for Melee. EVO 2015 for Smash 4 will likely be larger than APEX 2015 for Melee, so EVO 2015 for Smash will be the 2nd largest Smash tournament ever, and there's people trying to genuinely argue the game is already dying. Eh. If you want to see a group discuss this topic, the NorCal Smash 4 group has a good take on this issue, I think. http://www.twitch.tv/norcalsm4sh/b/641630120
BTW, Shroomed will be at the Foundry Thursday night for Smash 4, and he'll say he's going Doc. I guess he doesn't need Doc anymore for Melee.
Anyway, ZSaberLink is right, EVO is Smash 4's second national and it already got a 1000+ entries. That's the 3rd biggest Smash tournament ever, and the only two bigger are APEX 2015 for Melee, and EVO 2015 for Melee. EVO 2015 for Smash 4 will likely be larger than APEX 2015 for Melee, so EVO 2015 for Smash will be the 2nd largest Smash tournament ever, and there's people trying to genuinely argue the game is already dying. Eh. If you want to see a group discuss this topic, the NorCal Smash 4 group has a good take on this issue, I think. http://www.twitch.tv/norcalsm4sh/b/641630120
BTW, Shroomed will be at the Foundry Thursday night for Smash 4, and he'll say he's going Doc. I guess he doesn't need Doc anymore for Melee.
Awesome thanks. I'll check out that video.
It's a little disingenuous to compare the earliest competitive Melee to the earliest Smash 4. Things are different now. People inherently understand a lot more about how Smash games work, and I think it'd be very hard to convince anyone that 4 is so drastic a change that fundamental skills don't transfer over. We know how to play Smash games now and we know, for the most part, what's important. It's all well and good to say 4 is a 'new game' with a 'new meta' but until those statements can be supported with proof that 4 has, in fact, good odds of completely transforming it's just the equivalent of stalling. And, I mean, I don't think people are trying to play it 'like Melee'. You'll notice that the most successful and prevalent 4 players were the most successful and prevalent Brawl players. People who are playing like Brawl are doing better than the people trying to play it like Melee, ultimately.
I think the thing a lot of people (especially fans of 4 itself) are going to have to accept is that 4 is unlikely to get significantly faster or more offensive than it is now as it is now. It'll be highly polarized by character match-ups (more than any Smash game, I'd argue) and favour defensive options and reaction simply by how the mechanics are weighted. Lack of hitstun and strong escape options will naturally facilitate a certain type of pace and play. It's not really a muscle memory thing. I think a lot will probably change within the game as people figure out certain characters, but anyone hoping that the game will 'speed up' fast enough to legitimize something like, say, a three-stock format in an event like EVO are in all likelihood setting themselves up for disappointment.
4 isn't going to 'die', anyways. I think that's ridiculous, and reeks of echo chamber toxicity. I imagine it will shrink when the meta continues to 'develop' and average stock lengths don't significantly shorten and some people realize that the game isn't going to change in the way they're hoping for it to change, but 'dead' is an embarrassing over-exaggeration. This isn't Solid versus Liquid Snake, there's room for more than one game, and contrary to the assumptions made, 4's enthusiast crowd are probably not a closeted Melee-only viewer who just doesn't know any better, they're watching for an altogether different reason than they might watch Melee.
I think the thing a lot of people (especially fans of 4 itself) are going to have to accept is that 4 is unlikely to get significantly faster or more offensive than it is now as it is now. It'll be highly polarized by character match-ups (more than any Smash game, I'd argue) and favour defensive options and reaction simply by how the mechanics are weighted. Lack of hitstun and strong escape options will naturally facilitate a certain type of pace and play. It's not really a muscle memory thing. I think a lot will probably change within the game as people figure out certain characters, but anyone hoping that the game will 'speed up' fast enough to legitimize something like, say, a three-stock format in an event like EVO are in all likelihood setting themselves up for disappointment.
4 isn't going to 'die', anyways. I think that's ridiculous, and reeks of echo chamber toxicity. I imagine it will shrink when the meta continues to 'develop' and average stock lengths don't significantly shorten and some people realize that the game isn't going to change in the way they're hoping for it to change, but 'dead' is an embarrassing over-exaggeration. This isn't Solid versus Liquid Snake, there's room for more than one game, and contrary to the assumptions made, 4's enthusiast crowd are probably not a closeted Melee-only viewer who just doesn't know any better, they're watching for an altogether different reason than they might watch Melee.
theprodigy
Member
meh, dunno why anyone would think Smash 4 wouldn't hold out until Smash 5 at a minimum, for some reason I get the feeling Smash 5 will release earlier in the lifespan of Nintendo's next console too
(P.S. Sm4sh is the dumbest "abbreviation" ever, it just looks stupid and doesn't even save space over SSB4)
(also legalize Skyloft and Wuhu)
if this is true, it'll be closer to Melee than Smash 4 was in something! Kappa
(P.S. Sm4sh is the dumbest "abbreviation" ever, it just looks stupid and doesn't even save space over SSB4)
(also legalize Skyloft and Wuhu)
theprodigy
Member
nah, they have the same amount of annoying spots (aka not that many), aside from the boat glitch I see nothing wrong with Wuhu Island
(hello, welcome to the Competitive Super Smash Bros. for Wii U Discussion Thread)
Scythesurge
Member
Omni's video has some good points but ultimately tries to stifle the conversation around the game which is something that is really important for such a young game. ALL of the 4 Smash games took time to develop their respective meta games. The conversations are needed since the game isn't presented in a way to be played at tournaments, it's unfortunate but that's how Smash 4 was developed. While it's nice to want the community to come together and agree on a standard rule set, it's rather unreasonable to expect that to happen five months after release when Smash is more popular than ever and there are more people voicing opinions than ever. A lot of these opinions take the form of unsubstantiated internet posts, which often times lack the kind of reasoning required to solidify the rules. Saying Smash 4 *will* die at this point in time is premature and uninformed - as it was mentioned Evo already has the third most registrants of any Smash tournament ever. If Brawl survived competitively until Smash 4 then surely Smash 4 will have some competitive legs within the community.
That being said, at this point in time I'm not convinced one way or another about its longevity. After Brawl came out for a couple of years it really seemed that Melee was in decline, but look where we are now. Hell, people are still playing Smash 64 competitively despite it being 0% to death The Game. There's still a lot to develop in the Smash 4 meta especially considering the custom move sets. I do think there are some custom specials that deserve to be suspected for bannings but to ban anything at this point is premature without results from majors and data to back it up. Evo changed the game length timer from five minutes to six minutes which I fully supported, and I think this change was a relatively easy one to make once some tournament data was presented.
I question whether or not I want to pursue Smash 4 competitively, but not because the community is questioning and molding the rule set. It's a necessary discussion and development, and it's something that the previous games went through as growing pains. With Melee I remember being baffled at allowing stages like Rainbow Cruise or Poke Floats in tournaments when my circle pretty much refused to play on those stages. In the early days people were saying Sheik was OP and too dominant. At this point things like that look silly in hindsight. Give it some time, use strong reasoning and data to support your opinions and the meta take its natural course.
That being said, at this point in time I'm not convinced one way or another about its longevity. After Brawl came out for a couple of years it really seemed that Melee was in decline, but look where we are now. Hell, people are still playing Smash 64 competitively despite it being 0% to death The Game. There's still a lot to develop in the Smash 4 meta especially considering the custom move sets. I do think there are some custom specials that deserve to be suspected for bannings but to ban anything at this point is premature without results from majors and data to back it up. Evo changed the game length timer from five minutes to six minutes which I fully supported, and I think this change was a relatively easy one to make once some tournament data was presented.
I question whether or not I want to pursue Smash 4 competitively, but not because the community is questioning and molding the rule set. It's a necessary discussion and development, and it's something that the previous games went through as growing pains. With Melee I remember being baffled at allowing stages like Rainbow Cruise or Poke Floats in tournaments when my circle pretty much refused to play on those stages. In the early days people were saying Sheik was OP and too dominant. At this point things like that look silly in hindsight. Give it some time, use strong reasoning and data to support your opinions and the meta take its natural course.
I'd feel bad, but Melee competitive discussion only happens when there's a tournament.
Because noone is actually playing
old man games
theprodigy
Member
fixed
Scythesurge
Member
I haven't tried netplay yet but I'd like to at some point, could definitely use the extra experience against new people.
ZSaberLink
Media Create Maven
Still, it's not exactly fair to compare 15 years of Melee experience to 5 months of Smash 4 experience. Melee to Brawl is definitely fair at this point however because both games have been out a long time. Even comparing 3 years of Melee experience to 5 months of Smash 4 experience is probably also premature.
But a lot of the complaints have been "there aren't advanced techniques in Smash 4", and I feel like THAT is premature because we've barely been able to play much with the game. I think it'll be faster than usual thanks to how big the community has gotten though and the internet.
Yeh I'm not expecting super fast matches mostly because characters simply just live a LOT longer now and have much better recoveries than Melee. Perhaps we'll see some more 3 stocks in the future, but I'm not expecting too many, and good ledge game can be awesome to watch. People are complaining some customs kill too quickly and then complain about the matches taking too long because you don't want them using those customs lol.
Well you've been playing competitively a fairly long time then =). Also here's the M2K vs. Nairo match I was talking about.
https://youtu.be/5z0qp7vwmQ4?t=104
I think M2K actually isn't that great at Smash 4, but gets really far on the fact that he has his general Smash skills and the ability to read. His Diddy is really predictable, which is why Nairo could easily crush him imo. At the same time, he looks like he's having a lot of fun playing Smash 4 now, which is great =).
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I don't think Smash 4 is ever going to have advanced techniques that are "game changing" because anything that makes the game play much differently than it does now is going to be unintended and patched out. They removed DACUS and that Wario tech from the 3DS version. And IIRC they removed that landing lag thing with Link's bombs? There's probably other stuff too, I don't really follow Smash 4.
Players will get better at the game, make less mistakes, etc, but I don't think it's actually going to get any deeper than it is right now.
Anyway, I feel kind of dumb because I learned something simple/obvious to probably everyone in the world except me. Apparently you can full shield without clicking the trigger, just push it down to the point before it clicks. Suddenly, wavedashing out of shield is easy (or, easier at least).
Mentioned it to my brother and he was like "I know, I thought I told you that."
Q_Q
Players will get better at the game, make less mistakes, etc, but I don't think it's actually going to get any deeper than it is right now.
Anyway, I feel kind of dumb because I learned something simple/obvious to probably everyone in the world except me. Apparently you can full shield without clicking the trigger, just push it down to the point before it clicks. Suddenly, wavedashing out of shield is easy (or, easier at least).
Mentioned it to my brother and he was like "I know, I thought I told you that."
Q_Q
Yeah, that's going to be true on NeoGAF. I play Melee at least 10 hours a week and have probably averaged that for the last 10-12 years. My goal with Melee is to get better, I don't follow everything in the scene constantly, which is why this thread is perfect.
Haha yeah, that happens to me alot with Melee. It's like some stuff doesn't click "click" until you're prepared for it on a technical level. I think that just means you level up your tech game. I know I used to think pivot forward smashes with Marth were hard, but then I focused on that for a few weeks and now I can do them on the fly. My shield dropping is pretty close to getting there as well.
Captain Rage Quit 69
Banned
I'd gladly play Melee Netplay with people on here. If you guys need help setting it up, ask me.
Just don't talk about where to get the .iso if it's not "extract from disc." >.>;;;
Just don't talk about where to get the .iso if it's not "extract from disc." >.>;;;
I'm not sure that I can handle the lag. I just got Melee running on an HD tv with no lag and it's beautiful. However if it can be added to my current version of 20XX I'm down.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
That's definitely true, but not really what I meant lol.
I actually saw a link to a video that demonstrated it and my mind was blown. Until yesterday I thought full shield = clicked trigger, light shield was anything before that. Doing wavedash OOS was hard for me since I use one trigger for everything (L, oddly, most people seem to use R), but doing a full shield without clicking the trigger and then using the click to wavedash is really easy in comparison to trying to time the jump->release->repress.
You have to use Dolphin for netplay, it's an emulator feature. As long as both player's iso files match bit for bit (same hash) you could play standard Melee or 20XX. I haven't messed with it, but apparently as long as you have a good connection with low latency and have the netplay buffer set correctly, it feels pretty close (but not quite) like local play.
The way netplay works is it basically makes the game think the players are playing locally.
Ah, that makes sense, a friend of mind also uses L for everything, you guys are crazy. However for me personally I can see a tutorial once or twice and then like a few months later come across it again and it just suddenly it will make more sense than it ever has.
Ah, lame. I'll try to install it and see how it goes, just not sure my laptop can handle it, are their drivers to make the gamecube adaptor work on PC?
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
The official adapter is natively supported by Dolphin, no drivers needed. I haven't tried it but I've heard great things. Apparently it is extremely accurate.
I'm not sure if people updated to the latest dolphin, because before the standard was a previous dev version so it could support dualcore + netplay. That said the fan driver for WiiU Adapter is fantastic, and if the new dolphin does support dual core netplay proberly, I hear the native dolphin drivers work great as well.
Watching the video and a few notes as I listen to it.
1) I think it's crazy that they expect people to follow their opinions over top players, the top players have worked REALLY hard to establish themselves, that doesn't happen over night. If they want to be that respected they need to keep putting in the work they are doing, but they gotta chill on their expectations.
2) Their numbers between Melee viewers and Smash 4 viewers during APEX was off by like 30,000. Not a big deal, but they are talking about "facts & numbers" and the importance of what they mean.
3) I don't know where this myth comes from, but Melee players, really love the Melee engine, haha. No one is afraid of having to learn a new game, some people just really love Melee. LOL I find it so hard to believe that people actually think there is some alternative motive They seem like they are in a super bubble. I was kind of understanding their point of view until this really weird rant, haha.
I think most Melee players WANT to move on, they just can't because no Smash game is filling this void. I was actually talking to Melee players about how awesome it would be if Riot made a shameless Melee ripoff that used the term Melee in the title and used terms like L canceling and Wavedashing in it's trailer. We'd love to have new mechanics and moves to learn, it just has to be fast and fun and reward aggression while making defensive play difficult to maintain, but totally viable. Personally I think Riot would be the only company I could trust to pull this off besides maybe Valve.
Cool, looks like I have a fun experiment this weekend.
https://twitter.com/progducto/status/581158782203490304
"Wouldn't it be cool if @LLL_Jeapie could finally play here in the states...you'll hear more about that Saturday."
"hold onto April 25 tho"
Jeapie does ill-advised things when he plays sometimes but every so often I just love watching baller shit
Just watch like the beginning of this match
I'm so happy that he's coming to the US
the only problem is, I don't know if he's going to be able to handle NTSC Falcon's Gentleman
"Wouldn't it be cool if @LLL_Jeapie could finally play here in the states...you'll hear more about that Saturday."
"hold onto April 25 tho"
Jeapie does ill-advised things when he plays sometimes but every so often I just love watching baller shit
Just watch like the beginning of this match
I'm so happy that he's coming to the US
the only problem is, I don't know if he's going to be able to handle NTSC Falcon's Gentleman
Apparently. That player immediately reminds me why I love Melee, haha. I just watched the first match. I'll have to sneak in time to watch the rest of it. (at work).
I took that people should look at communities that are making Smash 4 work, vs. just listen to them.
I only remember they were arguing about Smash 4 numbers, but you're right if they directly compared that to Melee.
Easier said than done. The one mass market try was Playstation All-Stars, and we know how that turned out.
Hahaha, I thought that was pretty good. Watching some of their other videos now. Good stuff.
"Hax says some small words, like 'oh, nice nair'"
XD
Post game ettiquette is pretty tough to nail. I don't know how many times I've gone for handshake/fist bump to be greeted with the opposite. If you wait to long for them to initiate though, sometimes you end up with nothing.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
"Try" and "Playstation All-Stars" don't really deserve to be in the same sentence together. I kind of hate the idea that a Smash-like game can't see success because Sony's low-effort attempt failed.
Edit: Wait, why didn't I know until now that Gahtzu, Wizzrobe, and Gravy had a twitch stream? Never followed a channel so fast.
theprodigy
Member
no Aftershock thread? guess this is gonna be the unofficial thread lol
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
The Sarcastic Dude
Banned
Grand finals for nebolous GF Leffen vs The Moon twitch.tv/sigmelee
http://www.smashbros.com/jp/events/chokaigi/20150425.html
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2015/...mash-bros-wii-u-world-grand-prix-april-25-26/
M2K finally gets promoted by Nintendo.
Also, LOL at the rules set for 2v2.
http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2015/...mash-bros-wii-u-world-grand-prix-april-25-26/
M2K finally gets promoted by Nintendo.
Its for Smash 4.
Also, LOL at the rules set for 2v2.
theprodigy
Member
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
PM getting ready to start on the TourneyLocator stream. And Smash 4 on Clash Tournaments. Looks like Melee will be on CT too after Smash 4.
Oh my god these shoryukens from Luigi.
Oh my god these shoryukens from Luigi.
theprodigy
Member
lol this "Moon" glitch still showing up on Twitch
Stormhammer
Member
Shoutouts to my pals SS4Ricky and East Coast Eddie for getting 1st & 2nd in PM, and for SS4Ricky winning Smash 4 this weekend at a tourney in Roanoake.
Fidelis Hodie
Infidelis Cras
Moon's neonebulous losers run was fantastic to watch. Can't wait for him to keep getting better.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Good news (as long as you use Firefox/Chrome), Warchamp fixed it with a browser extension.
Also, hyped for the Ganondorf round-robin at Aftershock. Can't wait to see those matches.