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[Unk Adams]

This is a really dumb take, sorry. It isn't a matter of right or wrong. It's just perspective. You seem to want to just badmouth the guy for no reason.

The most hyped multiplayer games released lately have been burning hot and bright and then they just burn out, seeing player numbers drop with the drop media coverage they're getting. Only a handful have had real staying power over the years and those are getting to the point where it's hard for newcomers to get into them.

Like, OP is disagreeing with Jaffe and saying there's no luck to it. "The formula is there, you just have to mine it from the engagement metrics and do what the most popular games do and you'll be successful." is what I get from the OP. But it sure does look a lot more like luck than science with how rarely a new multiplayer game actually hits and sticks.

If you think that this is a stupid take then you obviously haven't been following Jaffe and the crazy shit that he's been saying for years now. Do you really think that I just picked him at random and decided to talk shit? Even when he was talking about the used game business back then he is right to his own perspective but if you use a douchey tone like he did even back then you can call them out for it. You might not like my take but I'm just some random asshole on a forum that no one cares about. You're held to higher scrutiny when you make public comments as a famous person.

 

[Shadowplay1979]

Jaffe is right. There are plenty of good dead (or near dead) multiplayer games out there.

There are plenty of... FULL STOP

theres only so many people in the world that are gonna play your mp dinosaur hunting simulator etc


thats part of the problem. While you have garbage mp games that run on ip tradition alone ( COD), you have your lightning in a bottle fad games (fall guys etc) that have their run and then taper off.

what makes the niche long lasting mp games last long is the communities that build up in them....want to build longer lasting and enjoyable mp, build those tight knit communities. Theres plenty of games id love to coop with people but no one ever wants to play etc...

This is why theres lots of mmos that are still alive ( eq) long after the ship has sailed...the communities

 

[Bragr]

From the game rebooted without him? Why not?

Because that character and game would not live without him. So its silly to bash him when you are apparently fanboying the heritage of his work.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

Because that character and game would not live without him. So its silly to bash him when you are apparently fanboying the heritage of his work.

I can separate the art from the artist. Just because someone does something you enjoy doesn't mean he / she can't be an asshole.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I wonder if one of the big multiplayer games now was famous around 1998? hmmmm
You are all over the place with your arguments dude, saying that devs don't chase the trends and then citing old games that are still relevant?
Your are arguing something that most devs and big corpos wish was true, "that making games is formulaic and repeatable." wich to some extent they can be, but those games are not extactly the ones setting the world on fire and surviving decades, those are usually only the ones riding the waves.

I mean, if you have some secret knowledge to predict the industry that you know it'll work 100%, you are gonna make bank pretty easy.
The industry tries to predict what is going to be hot all the time, with data, analists, and everything you can imagine as a resource and yet, against all odds, the ones making it big are those little trains that could (which are then copied by the big corpos)

I've never been against "chasing trends". I'm always for observing new successes in the market, learning why they're successes, and building off that new knowledge.

What was popular, and well loved in 2002, is not what's popular and well loved in 2022.

AND YET, our media acts like those old design concepts are still good today. They're not.

Knockout City is a basic arena shooter with a novel attack/defense mechanic.

Age of Ashes is a dogfighting arena shooter with a novel aesthetic.

Halo Infinite is a bog standard arena shooter.

And yet, if you go on all three games subreddits you'll hear the superfans say "The only reason no one plays the game anymore is because (insert frivolous reason here)." It's never the frivolous reason. It's always because arena shooters are stale.

I refuse to believe Jaffe, or anyone on NeoGAF, can look at Steamcharts most popular multiplayer today, and not find patterns or characteristics among the games. In other words, if multiplayer was really "lightning in a bottle" we'd see a more random assortment of genres in the top 20. It's not an indecipherable labyrinth.

 

[Keihart]

I've never been against "chasing trends". I'm always for observing new successes in the market, learning why they're successes, and building off that new knowledge.

What was popular, and well loved in 2002, is not what's popular and well loved in 2022.

AND YET, our media acts like those old design concepts are still good today. They're not.

Knockout City is a basic arena shooter with a novel attack/defense mechanic.

Age of Ashes is a dogfighting arena shooter with a novel aesthetic.

Halo Infinite is a bog standard arena shooter.

And yet, if you go on all three games subreddits you'll hear the superfans say "The only reason no one plays the game anymore is because (insert frivolous reason here)." It's never the frivolous reason. It's always because arena shooters are stale.

I refuse to believe Jaffe, or anyone on NeoGAF, can look at Steamcharts most popular multiplayer today, and not find patterns or characteristics among the games. In other words, if multiplayer was really "lightning in a bottle" we'd see a more random assortment of genres in the top 20. It's not an indecipherable labyrinth.

You are aware of what a MOBA is right? and that your example of successfull multiplayer game Counter Strike has been popular since around 99 with no real big changes? the biggest design change is a pretty old one with the mtx addition back in the TF2 days.

Chasing trends is the safest way tho and can sometimes lead to some cannibalization of the user base, but it will never be the trailblazer success that you get with all those devs that took a risk and succeded.

That's why you get all this big corpos burning money on trends, big investments are not gonna be taking big risks usually, you can try to be formulaic all you want but even good games get left in the dust without some luck and timming.

How are you even arguing that is not lighting in a bottle, when so many great games on paper get dusted? even when having all the trend research possible and all the capital possible backing them up?

Your posture is the suits posture on the game industry tho, so don't think of yourself as someone thinking out of the box, you have the exact same posture that all this companies chasing success by piggy backing the success of other games do. And they burn more money than they do most of the time with the excuse of potential growth.

 

[davidjaffe]

Does he get anything right? I even remember him complaining about used games in an old issue of EGM. People ignored him making douchey comments back then because the games he was involved in (GOW) were so good at the time. Now that he puts out nothing noteworthy anymore it's hard to ignore stupid comments.

I got that right. Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make it not right.

You know how you can know I got the used game market right? Cause it's pretty much dead. As I said back then, the customer was 100% in their right to chase the best deal possible. But Gamestop cutting out pubs/devs from the market would accelerate digital and alas, that is what has occurred.

Now go home and get your shinebox.

 

[bender]

Now go home and get your shinebox.

Even though Billy Batts got stomped out, I agree with Jaffe's "lightning in a bottle" sentiment.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You are aware of what a MOBA is right? and that your example of successfull multiplayer game Counter Strike has been popular since around 99 with no real big changes? the biggest design change is a pretty old one with the mtx addition back in the TF2 days.

Chasing trends is the safest way tho and can sometimes lead to some cannibalization of the user base, but it will never be the trailblazer success that you get with all those devs that took a risk and succeded.

That's why you get all this big corpos burning money on trends, big investments are not gonna be taking big risks usually, you can try to be formulaic all you want but even good games get left in the dust without some luck and timming.

How are you even arguing that is not lighting in a bottle, when so many great games on paper get dusted? even when having all the trend research possible and all the capital possible backing them up?

Your posture is the suits posture on the game industry tho, so don't think of yourself as someone thinking out of the box, you have the exact same posture that all this companies chasing success by piggy backing the success of other games do. And they burn more money than they do most of the time with the excuse of potential growth.

"Lightning in a bottle" means what exactly? I interpret it as a way to mean complete luck.

Then I look at Epic Games.
- Unreal/Unreal Tournament
- Gears of War
- Fortnite.

Then I look at Blizzard
- Warcraft/Starcraft
- Diablo
- World of Warcraft
- Hearthstone
- Overwatch

Then I look at Nintendo
- Mario Kart
- Smash Bros
- Mario Party
- Wii Sports
- Splatoon

There seems to be companies who have a knack for "catching lightning in a bottle". It's almost as if some don't subscribe to the notion at all. Sony may have used to believe multiplayer was all luck, but that doesn't seem to be the case anymore.

Btw, keep your eye on Blizzards PvP survival game. That smells like lightning in a bottle from a mile away.

 

[bender]

"Lightning in a bottle" means what exactly? I interpret it as a way to mean complete luck.

Then I look at Epic Games.
- Unreal/Unreal Tournament
- Gears of War
- Fortnite.

Jaffe touched on it a bit but Fortnite was a miss as originally designed (co-op, horde mode, tower defense, crafte-'em-up) and only gained massive popularity when they ripped off PUBG. Granted they did some smart things, like making that formula much more casual friendly and made it free-to-play. Fortnite wouldn't exist today without that pivot. The "luck" aspect has to do with what catches on and not so much the quality of the product which again Jaffe touched on.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The "luck" aspect has to do with what catches on and not so much the quality of the product which again Jaffe touched on.

I don't think what catches on is luck.

I think if you look at the games that catch on, you'll see some major themes become transparent. Those themes are building to what I predict will be PvP survival games becoming the dominant genre. Arena shooters led to Battle Royale (we are here) which will lead to survival games which will lead to dystopian metaverse.

The "industry" was shocked by Battle Royale because the industry sees multiplayer in the same way they view single player, when in reality they're completely different animals.

PUBG and Fortnite were derided by "the industry" at first because the people crafting the narrative that God of War 2018 was a masterpiece were also creating the narrative that PUBG and Fortnite were novel fads. The people who value production values, story, animations, and set pieces are ill equipped to understand what a multiplayer masterpiece looks like. It's like a music critic trained in classical compositions trying to understand jazz and vice versa.

Epics pivot to BR at the last minute was them understanding what multiplayer gamers want. The developers of HyperScape didn't understand.

 

[bender]

I don't think what catches on is luck.

It's not black and white of course, but luck is involved. PUBG was a direct and opposite response to shooters that were popular at the time. It attained way more popularity than I thought was possible as the control scheme and mechanics were complicated (by today's standards). What hurt it most was the development stumbles and the presentation being rooted in ARMA. They offered loot boxes but that hardly matters when you game looks terrible. And when they stumbled, Epic took advantage by adding BR mode that was whipped together fairly quickly with their own struggling game. And while I don't like Fortnite's art style, it is much better suited to skins. I bet if you asked the Fortnite team and if they were being honest, they would have never expected the outcome we have today or anything close. There is certainly an element of luck to that. No one is discounting Epic's talent as a developer.

 

[Unk Adams]

I got that right. Just because you don't agree with it, doesn't make it not right.

You know how you can know I got the used game market right? Cause it's pretty much dead. As I said back then, the customer was 100% in their right to chase the best deal possible. But Gamestop cutting out pubs/devs from the market would accelerate digital and alas, that is what has occurred.

Now go home and get your shinebox.

I mean, you were basically saying what everyone else predicted at the time because everything was moving into a digital direction by that point. It was pretty much obvious that newer generations by then preferred digital and once internet connections and technology improved everything in media would be heading in that direction. It wasn't just related to used game sales and Gamestop, which both still exist despite the market getting smaller. But that's just because more people in general prefer digital everything now and the market was obviously going to be trending that way.

I had no problem with your opinion, by the way. It was the way you were being a jerk to people about it. I seem to remember you cursing out a guy in Twitter like around 2010 regarding used game sales. Do you remember anything about that? I have to admit that it was a cool persona you had back then by trying to be the bad boy game developer because that was around the time you were still relevant and put out great software like the original God of War games. I have to admit you did put out some gaming masterpieces. But it's not longer cool when you're an old dude doing a soyface in your profile picture on Youtube and haven't put out any relevant games in years by this point. You also did shitty things like allow Twisted Metal (which was somehow inferior to previous Twisted Metal games on older hardware) to have an online pass back then.

Now go back to Youtube and record another video. How the mighty have fallen, from putting out masterpieces like the original God of War Trilogy to getting a few thousand views per Youtube video.

 

[davidjaffe]

I mean, you were basically saying what everyone else predicted at the time because everything was moving into a digital direction by that point. It was pretty much obvious that newer generations by then preferred digital and once internet connections and technology improved everything in media would be heading in that direction. It wasn't just related to used game sales and Gamestop, which both still exist despite the market getting smaller. But that's just because more people in general prefer digital everything now and the market was obviously going to be trending that way.

I had no problem with your opinion, by the way. It was the way you were being a jerk to people about it. I seem to remember you cursing out a guy in Twitter like around 2010 regarding used game sales. Do you remember anything about that? I have to admit that it was a cool persona you had back then by trying to be the bad boy game developer because that was around the time you were still relevant and put out great software like the original God of War games. I have to admit you did put out some gaming masterpieces. But it's not longer cool when you're an old dude doing a soyface in your profile picture on Youtube and haven't put out any relevant games in years by this point. You also did shitty things like allow Twisted Metal (which was somehow inferior to previous Twisted Metal games on older hardware) to have an online pass back then.

Now go back to Youtube and record another video. How the mighty have fallen, from putting out masterpieces like the original God of War Trilogy to getting a few thousand views per Youtube video.

I would love to have you call into the stream and say this shit directly to me. Would love to have that chat with you. Are you up for it?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Do it U Unk Adams

Do it! NeoGAF will find it entertaining!

 

[Neff]

Jaffe understands gaming on a deeper level than most.

 

[EviLore]

I mean, you were basically saying what everyone else predicted at the time because everything was moving into a digital direction by that point. It was pretty much obvious that newer generations by then preferred digital and once internet connections and technology improved everything in media would be heading in that direction. It wasn't just related to used game sales and Gamestop, which both still exist despite the market getting smaller. But that's just because more people in general prefer digital everything now and the market was obviously going to be trending that way.

I had no problem with your opinion, by the way. It was the way you were being a jerk to people about it. I seem to remember you cursing out a guy in Twitter like around 2010 regarding used game sales. Do you remember anything about that? I have to admit that it was a cool persona you had back then by trying to be the bad boy game developer because that was around the time you were still relevant and put out great software like the original God of War games. I have to admit you did put out some gaming masterpieces. But it's not longer cool when you're an old dude doing a soyface in your profile picture on Youtube and haven't put out any relevant games in years by this point. You also did shitty things like allow Twisted Metal (which was somehow inferior to previous Twisted Metal games on older hardware) to have an online pass back then.

Now go back to Youtube and record another video. How the mighty have fallen, from putting out masterpieces like the original God of War Trilogy to getting a few thousand views per Youtube video.

I don’t know or care about some alleged mean tweet from 2010 in the vivid tapestry of your memories, but here in 2022 this rhetoric is completely uncalled for.

 

[AeonGaidenRaiden]

The guy could be in the industry forever but lets be honest, just as Romero, he is stuck in time. Last good game from him was from 2004? Thats 18 years ago. Some game designers just cant keep up with the times and end up being "old man shouts at clouds".

 

[davidjaffe]

The guy could be in the industry forever but lets be honest, just as Romero, he is stuck in time. Last good game from him was from 2004? Thats 18 years ago. Some game designers just cant keep up with the times and end up being "old man shouts at clouds".

You say that like it's a bad thing; or maybe I'm thinking of the other poster.

Either way, lots of creatives have their moments where they and their ideas are super plugged in to the culture. They create for a bit, work with others to bring some amazing stuff to the world, and then the spotlight passes to others. I'm not sure why so many people view this as a bad thing tho. Would YOU want to be stuck doing the same job for 50 years? Especially if it was clear that the things you enjoyed at a design level were not the things a large enough % of the audience enjoyed? Trust me, that's not fun.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Jaffe getting multiplayer wrong again...




- GameSpot is the same company who tried to tell their audience Halo Infinite multiplayer was great. "I can't be wrong. The market must be oversaturated!" No GameSpot, you were wrong. You recommended a game that got boring after 10 hours.

- "There's games that came out in 2021 that were really good that didn't catch on...they had marketing and they had mindshare and they popped really big and people left." Jaffe still not understanding that the great modern multiplayer games share specific characteristics that the games he's describing lack. PUBG, Fortnite, Rocket League, Minecraft all launched with piss poor marketing, zero mindshare, they didn't pop really big right out of the gate. Great multiplayer has nothing to do with those things. Great multiplayer delivers fun once the honeymoon period wears off.

- Jaffe talks about console fanboying a lot. He has some of it in him with this GAAS stuff.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Apparently I'm obsessed. I can't fathom how a game developer can be this off when it comes to understanding multiplayer...

Jaffe starts off talking about his post Drawn to Death game for Sony that ultimately got cancelled, which I thought was pretty interesting.




His major bad takes listed below:

- "Using a wipe board and trying to identify what successful games are doing right doesn't work."

Except when it comes to Battle Royale, Survival Games, and 4 Player Coop...because 48 of the last 50 hit multiplayer games emerged from those three "wipe board" type genres.

- A lot of "me too Fortnite clones failed...like Knockout City and Roller Champions".

David Jaffe equates art with being a clone rather than actual game design / player experience. KC and RC play nothing like Fortnite. Multiplayer gamers connect with how a game plays exponentially more than how a game looks.

- "Knockout City was phenomenal. I played 4 matches of it and I was done with it."

These two sentences can't coexist. Great multiplayer games are onions that give players hundreds or thousands of enticing layers. Hour 135 should be just as exciting as hour 2. Knockout City was a brick of cheese. It was functional, polished mediocrity. Multiplayer gamers embraced 2017 era PUBG, which was the complete inverse of Knockout City.

- "Who in their right mind would think Halo wouldn't be one of the most played games less than a year after release."

Everyone who noticed how poorly arena shooters have done over the last 5+ years. Everyone who noticed how good BR games have done over the last 5+ years.

- "I'd be terrified if I was Sony looking at this F2P GAAS market."

I'm sure Sonys big 300 person studios are terrified of the 5 people who made Valheim (10+ million sold). That game is so perfect that "wipe boarding" it with a AAA studio and 4+ years dev time would surely lead to ruin.

I still love Jaffe, but GOOD GOD do some people just not get this booming part of the industry.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

David Jaffe is like my uncle who worked at PlayStation.

 

[Gambit2483]

Read the OP.

Have no idea what the point is.

Something about Mike Tyson...apparently he has big plans, or something...

 

[solidus12]

Where’s the MAGA hat, Jaffe?

 

[Hendrick's]

Read the OP.

Have no idea what the point is.

Especially when the video is about Game Pass and the OP doesn't even mention it.

 

[TexMex]

David Jaffe said something deliberately inflammatory and then immediately walked it back to make a second video about it later? Are we sure???

 

[Gamer_By_Proxy]

He's wrong on just about everything including politics. He's the definition of a has-been.

 

[MiguelItUp]

I mean, Jaffe has his own opinions about multiplayer games, I wouldn't say they're wrong per se, because they're his opinions. Jaffe was never known as some multiplayer game creating savant or anything. So him having strange takes or opinions on anything multiplayer adjacent shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, haha. This is no different than other industry vets or icons that don't have experience with extremely popular multiplayer games giving their opinion.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Some companies have game franchises that consistently have large MP fanbases. Some dont. Some have lousy MP user bases from the start.

Marketing only goes so far. If it's a bad game, the user base will fall off fast after a hyped up start.

Also, there's only so much time and money to go around. So just like real life buying cookies or tshirts, it doesn't matter if the world had every product being a 10/10 at a cost of $2 each. There's only so much product someone can commit to. With so many games dirt cheap to try, think of it like a buffet. You can only play so much. And gamers are smart enough to trend to the MP games that are good. Thats where the user base sticks.

 

[SkylineRKR]

Infinite failed because the game was stuck in 2006. Mechanically it beat Vanguard and BF but it lacked playlists and content. Its progression system isn't as addicting, and its battle pass was simply awful. Vanguard's BP didn't really set a high bar, but there was at least _some_ free weapons and stuff to unlock. Infinite gave you shit, and it had no clear roadmap and fast drop of content or anything and matches take too long to start. I believe that for Ranked, you couldn't even play what you wanted.

In 2006 I would probably keep playing it, but right now I just moved on after a month as I saw nothing to work towards and there are so many games to play right now even if you don't purchase them. Matter of fact I played Vanguard more despite thinking Infinite was better, its just that I liked unlocking stuff, got into matches faster and could play what I wanted etc.

So yeah reviews can hype Infinite all they want, but multiplayer can't be really reviewed anyway. You can review the base content and mechanics but if there is no sense of progression, too little to play, no significant drop of content or updates then the game isn't good enough to keep players on board and thus the MP portion just isn't good enough period.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I mean, Jaffe has his own opinions about multiplayer games, I wouldn't say they're wrong per se, because they're his opinions. Jaffe was never known as some multiplayer game creating savant or anything. So him having strange takes or opinions on anything multiplayer adjacent shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, haha. This is no different than other industry vets or icons that don't have experience with extremely popular multiplayer games giving their opinion.

It's not about his opinions of games. It's that his overarching message is wrong...

"These GAAS games sure do seem like a crapshoot. Sony and Microsoft better be careful because Knockout City + Roller Champions were great games (lol) and they went belly up. It's impossible to know what will stick and what wont."

That's an insane take from someone who rose to prominence in the industry due in large part to understanding the medium. It's not just Jaffe either, you hear this sentiment from a wide range of people in the gaming press.

StreetsofBeige makes a great point. Why do companies like Blizzard consistently produce multiplayer hits if it's such an unsolvable puzzle/gamble?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Also, there's only so much time and money to go around. So just like real life buying cookies or tshirts, it doesn't matter if the world had every product being a 10/10 at a cost of $2 each. There's only so much product someone can commit to. With so many games dirt cheap to try, think of it like a buffet. You can only play so much. And gamers are smart enough to trend to the MP games that are good. Thats where the user base sticks.

While this is true in theory, it's impossible to know where that line is.

Suggesting Roller Champions fizzled because we're at some GAAS threshold and the market can't support anymore seems wrong.

What percentage of gamers were one game gamers in 1985? <1%?

What percentage of gamers were one game gamers in 2005? ~5%?

What percentage of gamers are one game gamers today? ~20%?

I think that trajectory is going to continue over the next 10-20 years.

 

[nominedomine]

The specific characteristic top multiplayer games share is that they all suck ass.

Modern multiplayer games are a complete disgrace... unlockable, progression, daily quests, skins, season passes, it makes me sick.

 

[PhaseJump]

It's not about his opinions of games. It's that his overarching message is wrong...

"These GAAS games sure do seem like a crapshoot. Sony and Microsoft better be careful because Knockout City + Roller Champions were great games (lol) and they went belly up. It's impossible to know what will stick and what wont."

That's an insane take from someone who rose to prominence in the industry due in large part to understanding the medium. It's not just Jaffe either, you hear this sentiment from a wide range of people in the gaming press.

StreetsofBeige makes a great point. Why do companies like Blizzard consistently produce multiplayer hits if it's such an unsolvable puzzle/gamble?

I choose to believe that you bump this bullshit only to give Jaffe clicks because you love him and his opinion.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

While this is true in theory, it's impossible to know where that line is.

Suggesting Roller Champions fizzled because we're at some GAAS threshold and the market can't support anymore seems wrong.

What percentage of gamers were one game gamers in 1985? <1%?

What percentage of gamers were one game gamers in 2005? ~5%?

What percentage of gamers are one game gamers today? ~20%?

I think that trajectory is going to continue over the next 10-20 years.

I'll take a crack at your two replies to me above. Of course I have no proof or stats. I dont even work in video games. But as a common guy here's my two cents why some games or franchises consistently do well, and some sink on day one.

In order to have long lasting success:

- Good game as a whole. Doesn't have to be a 96/100 metacritic score, but at least something reasonably decent like 75 or higher

- Good smooth graphics and gameplay. Again, doesn't have to be cutting edge visuals. In fact, many successful MP games arent even that great looking to me. They possibly have that family fun and colourful average joe look to it. Many are purposely dialed down and notch or two for sake of drawing in mainstream crowds and being able to run well on legacy consoles or half shitty PCs

- There's some kind of addictive loop to it. It can be being better at Rock Band, shooter matches with stats, EA League play, leveling up, lootbox drops you name it. The absolutely 100% opposite of what SP 10 hr games are

- There's some kind of regular update, sequel, content packs etc.... How many super successful MP games have gamers guessing at when the game gets fixes/content, or gets zero post launch support? Never. More DLC, more loot packs, the game is on Patch #16 v.2637. Always there to support fans with content, balancing and fixes

- The game has tons of variety in customization. Character classes, loadouts, pick your sports team etc...

- Easy to jump in and play. You can be the shittiest MP gamer ever, but the game will adjust/MM you to play with equally shitty players

- Core familiarity and interest. Going back to my buffet analogy. Gamers only have so much time and money to spend. Chances are pretty good, someone isn't going to invest tons of time into something they have no idea of or care of from the start. They'll stick to MP modern era shooters if they like it, and at a buffet if they like fried chicken, they'll probably take a few pieces even though they can eat it at home. You'd think someone would skip eating everything they eat at home and try new shit, but all I know is myself and every person I've eaten with, most people eat core stuff they like and then perhaps dabble with weird stuff they never tried.

There could be the greatest new game ever on Steam right now. But if it's some obscure genre or setting, its going to be tough to go up against shooters or sports or MOBA which gamers can understand and all the new games that come out are just a variation.

Something like Roller Champions supposedly on it's deathbed, how many gamers on Earth are begging to play that kind of game even if UBI had a global marketing deal with every media on the planet promoting the game in your face every time you turned on the TV or checked out your cellphone in the morning? Class ic arena shooters like UNreal and Halo are similar. Not enough core interest.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I choose to believe that you bump this bullshit only to give Jaffe clicks because you love him and his opinion.

He's a high profile person in the industry who perpetuates a common misunderstanding of the gamings most fascinating game type: multiplayer.

I wish Jaffe got more clicks compared to wankers like Greg Miller and Jeff Grubb who are allergic to coming at anything from an angle that's remotely interesting or controversial.

 

[MAtgS]

David Jaffe has been wrong about a lot of things lately.

He's turning into the Jim Cornette of video games.

 

[It's all in the wrist]

Every forum loves shitting on Jaffe for some reason. It's one of the things NeoGAF and resetera can agree on!

<3 Jaffe. It's like the internet never got to him.

 

[sloppyjoe_gamer]

Everytime i see this thread or anything with that wank's name in it, i wish Gaf had an auto ignore for posts based on keywords

 

[Griffon]

Just having a good game isn't enough, you need your players to think they're in a thriving community.

This is tough to achieve. Many decent games don't make it.

 

[lovetalkgames]

Jaffe is so fucking awesome.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Based on what i've seen, there are two metrics at the forefront of successful live service games:
-Strong social features.
-Regular updates and addition of new content.

The games don't even have to be good if they can get those two things right.

 

[Sosokrates]

I wish Jaffe was not so obvious with his sensationalist opinions and clickbaity thumbnails just to get attention so he can make some money.

 

[davidjaffe]

Apparently I'm obsessed. I can't fathom how a game developer can be this off when it comes to understanding multiplayer...

Jaffe starts off talking about his post Drawn to Death game for Sony that ultimately got cancelled, which I thought was pretty interesting.




His major bad takes listed below:

- "Using a wipe board and trying to identify what successful games are doing right doesn't work."

Except when it comes to Battle Royale, Survival Games, and 4 Player Coop...because 48 of the last 50 hit multiplayer games emerged from those three "wipe board" type genres.

- A lot of "me too Fortnite clones failed...like Knockout City and Roller Champions".

David Jaffe equates art with being a clone rather than actual game design / player experience. KC and RC play nothing like Fortnite. Multiplayer gamers connect with how a game plays exponentially more than how a game looks.

- "Knockout City was phenomenal. I played 4 matches of it and I was done with it."

These two sentences can't coexist. Great multiplayer games are onions that give players hundreds or thousands of enticing layers. Hour 135 should be just as exciting as hour 2. Knockout City was a brick of cheese. It was functional, polished mediocrity. Multiplayer gamers embraced 2017 era PUBG, which was the complete inverse of Knockout City.

- "Who in their right mind would think Halo wouldn't be one of the most played games less than a year after release."

Everyone who noticed how poorly arena shooters have done over the last 5+ years. Everyone who noticed how good BR games have done over the last 5+ years.

- "I'd be terrified if I was Sony looking at this F2P GAAS market."

I'm sure Sonys big 300 person studios are terrified of the 5 people who made Valheim (10+ million sold). That game is so perfect that "wipe boarding" it with a AAA studio and 4+ years dev time would surely lead to ruin.

I still love Jaffe, but GOOD GOD do some people just not get this booming part of the industry.

I love you back BUT the proof is in the pudding. So many of these games- that are good- are tanking. You may disagree with my theories about why (and they may be wrong, I don't 100% know much of anything) but you can't disagree with the anemic numbers for Roller Champs, the Ubi battle Roayle game (scrapers or something), Knockoutcity is doing mid numbers, Destruction Allstars,etc.

You can SAY 'oh well, that's cause they didn't follow what I know to be the secret sauce' and that's fine but you SAYING you can crack the code means very little if none of these massive companies are utilizing your formula. And thus, there's still a problem of these games not connecting.

 

[davidjaffe]

I wish Jaffe was not so obvious with his sensationalist opinions and clickbaity thumbnails just to get attention so he can make some money.

How would you like me to title my videos? I don't lie ever. What the video says it will be about IS what it's about.

Do I go in for drama and theatrics? Uhm sure. Have you ever SEEN any games I've directed? That's kinda the only setting my brain works at.

 

[Sosokrates]

How would you like me to title my videos? I don't lie ever. What the video says it will be about IS what it's about.

Do I go in for drama and theatrics? Uhm sure. Have you ever SEEN any games I've directed? That's kinda the only setting my brain works at.

Hey, more power to ya if its working. I guess all the kids like the drama and fighting and stuff. I guess i like the more genuine stuff u do, like the dev interviews u do.

 

[davidjaffe]

Hey, more power to ya if its working. I guess all the kids like the drama and fighting and stuff. I guess i like the more genuine stuff u do, like the dev interviews u do.

Fair but again, I assume you are talking thumbnails, right? The content on the other side of the click- I hope- only comes across as genuine and authentic (as that is what it is). If it doesn't, I have some improvements to make.

 

[Sosokrates]

Fair but again, I assume you are talking thumbnails, right? The content on the other side of the click- I hope- only comes across as genuine and authentic (as that is what it is). If it doesn't, I have some improvements to make.

I guess I've just grown tired of the "reel them in with the sensationalist thumbnail" and then have a more grounded and logical opinion in the video tactic. Feels like u are trying to manipulate me (which u are).

I guess u could do more honest, less instigating thumbnails and topics but they probably get less views.

 

[Bonsaibäumchen]

I love you back BUT the proof is in the pudding. So many of these games- that are good- are tanking. You may disagree with my theories about why (and they may be wrong, I don't 100% know much of anything) but you can't disagree with the anemic numbers for Roller Champs, the Ubi battle Roayle game (scrapers or something), Knockoutcity is doing mid numbers, Destruction Allstars,etc.

You can SAY 'oh well, that's cause they didn't follow what I know to be the secret sauce' and that's fine but you SAYING you can crack the code means very little if none of these massive companies are utilizing your formula. And thus, there's still a problem of these games not connecting.

How about making actually intersting and good multiplayer videogames? You know get to know your audience. Create a game they actually want? A game thats like other popular games but better? (And graphics are arguably the least important part in mp games)

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Jaffe is so fucking awesome.

Simp