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Diablo 4 Leak?

Lanrutcon

Member
The difference is that you could also just... make a fun build that can also run rifts. 🤷‍♀️

Diablo 2 offered no such alternative. But hey, at least you can accept that the loot grind shouldn't be the focus of the game. I agree with you there. Since the loot grind is present in all three Diablo titles, I will lean toward the game that has the best mechanics apart from the loot grind, and that game is D3.

Pfft. Never. Best thing D3 brought to the table was the gameplay. It's the only thing I won't criticize. I think a D2 to D3 style leap in gameplay for D4 isn't asking much.
 
Pfft. Never. Best thing D3 brought to the table was the gameplay. It's the only thing I won't criticize. I think a D2 to D3 style leap in gameplay for D4 isn't asking much.
Yes, exactly, D3 brought gameplay to the table. All three titles require a grind if you want a top-tier build, so it makes sense to me that I'd go with the game that offers the best gameplay. Shiny digital artifacts are not by themselves all too interesting to me.

What in particular about the D2 loot or "RPG mechanics" do you want brought back, out of curiosity? Diablo was already a dumbed-down roguelike dungeon crawler, so I see D3 as a game following that natural trajectory.
 

Lanrutcon

Member
Yes, exactly, D3 brought gameplay to the table. All three titles require a grind if you want a top-tier build, so it makes sense to me that I'd go with the game that offers the best gameplay. Shiny digital artifacts are not by themselves all too interesting to me.

What in particular about the D2 loot or "RPG mechanics" do you want brought back, out of curiosity? Diablo was already a dumbed-down roguelike dungeon crawler, so I see D3 as a game following that natural trajectory.

So in Diablo 2 you had a wide variety of unique items. They had wildly different droprates, so finding the more common ones was ok but not really cause for massive celebration. The high end ones? the super rare ones? If you found one of those it was an event of note. Not just for that character, but for your entire experience with the game. I'd like that brought back. D3 rains legendaries on you and it desensitizes you pretty massively.

D2 had far less normalisation when it comes to loot. Some of the best stuff in the game wasn't even unique: it just had a number of crazy modifiers line up to make a hyper specialised item that was absolutely amazing for a specific build. Now, I don't know if that kind of RNG-reliance is worth praising...but man did it every result in a super varied ecosystem of gear. Also, little things like having certain uniques "break the rules" of itemisation by giving you abilities from other classes. That kind of thing was cool. A nightmare to balance, but cool. Also: runewords were the shit. If you managed to build one of the killer ones, you were a goddamn legend. Good times.

And then I want character investment back. Getting to level 99 in D2 was a goddamn achievement. D3 treats characters like plastic cutlery: unwrap, use it, throw it away, move on to the next. I like to invest my time in a single character over a long period of time, building them up and carefully molding them into my hero of choice. No respecs. No learning all skills. No maxing it out in an evening. I want leveling to mean something, and I want skill trees that scroll so much you need a goddamn energy drink to reach the end. I want the D4 devs to look at PoE's skill trees and think "That's adorable". I want my UI to light up like an Xmas tree every time I level. I want to spend points. Massive amount of points. Attributes skills perks traits spells proficiencies feats. NUMBERS. I want math to cull the weak and sent them packing to Fortnite. I will totally admit that I am not the norm when it comes to this. Most people want simple, easy and quick.

Man, I could rant about this shit for days. But you get the idea.
 
So in Diablo 2 you had a wide variety of unique items. They had wildly different droprates, so finding the more common ones was ok but not really cause for massive celebration. The high end ones? the super rare ones? If you found one of those it was an event of note. Not just for that character, but for your entire experience with the game. I'd like that brought back. D3 rains legendaries on you and it desensitizes you pretty massively.
I've only gotten one or two Primals on items I'll never use, so that is pretty cool. D3 also rains down Death Breaths, bloodshards, and materials for you to use at the various gambling stations (Kanai + Kadala).

D3 started off with much rarer loot and people complained. Builds during launch were also "far less normalized" because players couldn't get complete sets of gear and/or necessary legendaries. Seasons helped by offering guarantee builds, much like Wizards of the Coast offers starter decks for people who want a fun and well-tuned deck to play with. The rate of loot is never going to appease everyone. If they toned it down, we would see complaints that the good stuff drops so rarely that it takes way too much grind before you reach the fun builds.

D2 had far less normalisation when it comes to loot. Some of the best stuff in the game wasn't even unique: it just had a number of crazy modifiers line up to make a hyper specialised item that was absolutely amazing for a specific build. Now, I don't know if that kind of RNG-reliance is worth praising...but man did it every result in a super varied ecosystem of gear. Also, little things like having certain uniques "break the rules" of itemisation by giving you abilities from other classes. That kind of thing was cool. A nightmare to balance, but cool.
I would like cross-class items too. I think the Hellfire amulets would be more interesting if you could roll for abilities that other classes have (within limits) as well as your own class abilities.

When you say "far less normalization", I feel as though I am back in the 90s, listening to a Magic the Gathering player who insists that the rarity of these really powerful cards makes the game more fun, and I do not ascribe to that thinking. Getting a rare drop is nice, but I want more than just a hamster wheel. I want a game with mechanics that are enjoyable even if I'm not winning the best loot during my run. I don't want the rarity of my session's loot to determine whether I'm having a good time or a slog.

Also: runewords were the shit. If you managed to build one of the killer ones, you were a goddamn legend. Good times.

And then I want character investment back. Getting to level 99 in D2 was a goddamn achievement. D3 treats characters like plastic cutlery: unwrap, use it, throw it away, move on to the next. I like to invest my time in a single character over a long period of time, building them up and carefully molding them into my hero of choice. No respecs. No learning all skills. No maxing it out in an evening. I want leveling to mean something, and I want skill trees that scroll so much you need a goddamn energy drink to reach the end. I want the D4 devs to look at PoE's skill trees and think "That's adorable". I want my UI to light up like an Xmas tree every time I level. I want to spend points. Massive amount of points. Attributes skills perks traits spells proficiencies feats. NUMBERS. I want math to cull the weak and sent them packing to Fortnite. I will totally admit that I am not the norm when it comes to this. Most people want simple, easy and quick.

Man, I could rant about this shit for days. But you get the idea.
I don't mind the ranting. I love Diablo and I'm always down to rant about the franchise.

IMO the D3 character advancement can be just as long as you want it to be. Play campaign and slowly grind your way up. I also have fond memories of the long slog of D2 (and D1), but that doesn't make them better games.

I wouldn't mind if Blizzard included more ways to invest in my character after I've unlocked all the skills, but at a certain point the good players are still going to hit "level cap" (whatever form that takes) and will have to increasingly rely on the rolls of the gear they're looting.

D2 required a lot of grinding before you could reach the end-game. D3 didn't require nearly as much. I don't see one as being better than the other, just different preferences.

I also love crunching the numbers and tweaking the little things. D3 does that, and better. You can re-roll individual item abilities. You can re-roll legendaries (or seek those perfect Primals) to your heart's content. You can grind a dozen different ways. I do wish the numbers were less "under the hood" and more in the open, but even on console I can pour over the details of my character stats and insert those nuanced little improvements to see how they work in the build.

I like that D3 gives me the full toolkit instead of (needlessly) requiring a character re-roll or a completely new save file just because I want to try out some new meta build that I heard about or thought up. I like that I can swap skills and compare their efficacy in battle very easily. I like that I can get a new character to 70 and then share all my Paragon with them instantly. I like that my Stash and my vendor upgrades are shared. It's just a quality of life thing. The extra hurdles placed between the player and their ideal build don't necessarily make the experience better, nor does it make players "earn it" more since they will still need a very high level of skill/reflexes to play that build at the highest difficulties.
 

Belmonte

Member
Simpler how? I am not necessarily disagreeing nor do I think "simpler" is bad, but I don't think that's the case.

I think the nostalgia goggles have made people think "long, grueling grind to get minuscule increases to my end-game build" is the same thing as "complex character building". Players in D2 were forced to pick worthless skills just for the synergies with their main ability, and by endgame you were packing as many "provides x effect while in inventory" charms while grinding on endgame bosses over and over. The goal was to use your single-click uberpower to wreck everything, perhaps with some casting and buffs on the side. 99 Level cap meant that all end-game building was loot grind, since you had no further means to improve native stats.

Diablo 3 forces players to use far more procs and "x for 10 seconds" or "y does 15,000 more damage when..." abilities to push into higher tiers, and this requires timing and twitchy skills.

It is not that Diablo 2 have perfect character building, but Diablo 3 response to its issues scraped too much of the strategy behind building your character, the tinkering with the stats and itens. IMO, Diablo is a game about optimizing the character build, this is the main part, not the combat exactly, like a proper brawler.

I appreciate a lot how Diablo 3 made the combat more fun since brawler is (along with RPGs) my favorite genre. But it would be even better if they didn't simplified the strategy part of the game.
 
It is not that Diablo 2 have perfect character building, but Diablo 3 response to its issues scraped too much of the strategy behind building your character, the tinkering with the stats and itens. IMO, Diablo is a game about optimizing the character build, this is the main part, not the combat exactly, like a proper brawler.

I appreciate a lot how Diablo 3 made the combat more fun since brawler is (along with RPGs) my favorite genre. But it would be even better if they didn't simplified the strategy part of the game.
I don't feel as though strategy was stripped out. A greater portion of the options were made available earlier in the experience (if we go by raw hours invested), this is true. Yet, I can re-tool my current Multishot build to use ice, or lightning, or the +rockets rune, or the +knockback rune, all of which can be further enhanced with a different set of legendary gems, rings, and amulets. So this one "build" has several viable variants on it that I could further tweak and grind to make them even better. Once a character has enough legendaries, you can start doing full mix-n-match with enough baseline damage through a Legacy of Dreams of Legacy of Nightmares to open up builds further. Wearing or cubing a Ring of Royal Grandeur also makes wearing 2 or even 3 different sets a possibility and gives flexibility as to which slots must have a set item on them.

I literally do not feel any lack of "optimizing the character build", but maybe I need to invest a few hundred more hours to reach that point. I admit, it's certainly possible.

I'm more concerned about the latter 400 hours remaining fun than having fun in the initial 20-50 hours spent reaching level cap, personally. I loved slowly customizing my characters in D1 and D2 including the tremendous grind necessary to reach level cap, but I don't miss it.
 
Diablo 3 became a somewhat good game years after it came out. But It's nowhere near being a good succesor of Diablo 2. It just didn't improve on what was good about D2, it went it separate way. That's the reason they are so different and so divisive of the fanbase.

Diablo 2 was a masterpiece and Diablo 3 was a terrible game if you went into it the first year and a good game afterwards.
 

Lux R7

Member
I would not mind having Lilith as last boss and then a diablo ultimate rematch in a future expansion (still, i think he's probably gonna be the last last boss of the base game regardless)
 

kraspkibble

Permabanned.
that artwork has got me hyped.

i didn't hate Diablo 3...i loved it but i love some dark shit.

I would not mind having Lilith as last boss and then a diablo ultimate rematch in a future expansion (still, i think he's probably gonna be the last last boss of the base game regardless)
should have Diablo last in the base game and Lilith the actual end game boss like malthael but that's just me.
 
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kraspkibble

Permabanned.
Im holding out hope we get a Diablo 4 switch port, I loved playing D3 handheld
i bought it for Switch and it was great but unfortuantly i guess i had already burned myself out on the game.

i will get it on PC no matter what but if it comes to Switch then sign me right up. i would have sunk so many damn hours into Diablo 3 if i could have played it on the go from 2012.
 
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Ivory Blood

Member
that artwork has got me hyped.

i didn't hate Diablo 3...i loved it but i love some dark shit.


should have Diablo last in the base game and Lilith the actual end game boss like malthael but that's just me.
They should subvert expectations and make Lilith our ally against Diablo, or, hell, maybe even Diablo as an ally against Lilith. Also fuck the Angiris Council.
 
I am hoping for a look into the past -- such as the war between heaven and hell, the creation of Sanctuary, and the early conflicts with the nephelem, and the early human kingdoms -- instead of a story that takes place after D3. At a minimum, if D4's story is after D3, I would prefer an emphasis on lore instead of in-game story, though of course I'd enjoy a mix of both.
 

Lanrutcon

Member
This might be shallow, but I want my D2 Necro back. If I can't lead a swarm of undead assholes in a war of attrition against hell then I'm going to be disappointed.
 
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Arozay

Member
d4book19.jpg


Looks good. DONT FUCK IT UP NOW.
 
I hope at least half of the classes are either new classes or new hybrids of existing ones. Ararat got blown up, so get rid of Barb. Witch Doctor and Necro could be lumped into one. Need improvement to the close/midrange classes. D3 already nailed long-ranged classes, imo.

Also please let me zoom out the camera / FOV.
 

Terce

Member
While I can understand the opinions on D3 showering you with legendaries, I think that was actually really great from a design perspective. In D3 legendaries were the gateway to different builds that allowed you to farm the higher difficulty levels. The extremely rare gear that people remember from D2 still exist in D3 as Primal Ancient gear, and the somewhat rare D2 gear is now Ancient gear. With 3 tiers of legendary items, each offering substantial increases to damage or survivability to the build, those that wanted to push for the limits of their class/build were constantly chasing those extremely rare Primal Ancient drops and finally getting it was on the same level as that extremely rare gear in D2.

Honestly I hope they continue with this design choice because I really enjoy being able to try many different builds and being limited by the gear I currently have vs some RNG drops is very disheartening.
 

TheContact

Member


Not sure how old that picture is but it seems to confirm the 3 classes--at least.
Hoping there's more by the time the full game comes out.

Keep in mind, after D3 was announced, it took like 3-4 years to actually release. I'm hoping D4 comes out in 2020 or at least Q1 2021 but that seems to be wishful thinking. D4 was apparently started in 2014 but has undergone a few iterations and different directors.
 
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