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Drama: Sweet Baby employees start fighting back against Steam curator

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cireza

cireza

Member
Draugoth said:
via Niche Gamer





chris-kindred-sweetbaby-3-1-2024-censored.jpg

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Perfectly reasonable and professional attitude, must be a pleasure working with them.
 
Nickolaidas

Nickolaidas

Member
Faust said:
Despite your best efforts to try and falsely associate being anti-woke/anti-slacktivist as being racist/bigoted, that was never the case.
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I don't think that Climber is trying to subtly insinuate that anti-woke people are racist, I think he/she is being sincere in asking how can we call something 'woke' without that being some vague meaning with little to no semblance to the actual meaning. Basically what woketards do when they call 'misogynist' or 'racist' or 'transphobic' every person who retorts to a statement of theirs with anything other than 'I 100% agree with you'.

Jaybe said:
Looks like the curator leveraged IMDB for some of their research as it lists where Sweet Baby Inc. is a production company.

I didn't realize Indiana Jones and the Great Circle was using Sweet Baby Inc. I guess with the talk of writing Indy for 'modern audiences' from the developer direct, I should have known.

www.imdb.com

Advanced search

www.imdb.com www.imdb.com
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You should watch Az's video on that trailer. He makes some pretty good points - you basically see Indiana Jones getting rescued and belittled by his female sidekick, and the devs stated that she is the one who has an actual narrative purpose in the game's McGuffin, not Indie.
 
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nush

nush

Member
March Climber said:
You're missing my point entirely. I'm not talking about an established character like Alyx from Half Life, who was revealed back in 2004. I'm talking about newer poc main characters who have been revealed in the past few years, when people started using the term 'woke' more and more. When Flintlock was revealed, quite a few people had already dismissed the game as 'woke' when there was no 'message' anywhere in the trailer.
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You just looked at the picture and ignored my comment didn't you?
 
graywolf323

graywolf323

Member
Jaybe said:
Looks like the curator leveraged IMDB for some of their research as it lists where Sweet Baby Inc. is a production company.

I didn't realize Indiana Jones and the Great Circle was using Sweet Baby Inc. I guess with the talk of writing Indy for 'modern audiences' from the developer direct, I should have known.

www.imdb.com

Advanced search

www.imdb.com www.imdb.com

b9hpZXf.jpg
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not sure I like them using IMDB as a source, people can easily submit that someone was involved with something & IMDB doesn’t cite sources
 
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Jaybe

Jaybe

Member
Nickolaidas said:
You should watch Az's video on that trailer. He makes some pretty good points - you basically see Indiana Jones getting rescued and belittled by his female sidekick, and the devs stated that she is the one who has an actual narrative purpose in the game's McGuffin, not Indie.
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Wow, so just like the last movie, which was a giant box office flop
 
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Nickolaidas

Nickolaidas

Member
Jaybe said:
Wow, so just like the last movie, which was a giant box office flop
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No that much. The fact that you control Indiana is what makes this experience immediately better than the movie, at least for the normies. Since you control Indiana, it is very hard to make him a complete bitch like in the movie. You control his agency to an extent and can do badass stuff, so your mind (if you're not alert to that bullshit) is quicker to forgive a cutscene or two where a girlboss is saving you like you're a fucking damsel in distress.
 
Jaybe

Jaybe

Member
Sgt.Asher said:
I don't understand why companies would pay for sweet baby consulting in the first place. Writing for "MODERN AUDIENCES" is brain dead simple.
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Probably protection money.... like they would set their social justice dogs on a developer if heaven forbid a black character's hairstyle is slightly off, or there aren't more than two pronoun choices.
 
lughnasadh123

lughnasadh123

Member
While having no particular stake in this other than happily supporting diversity in groups for games at the very least because I see value in seeing something of yourself represented in games along with a wider pool of experiences from people to make things.

That said, this whole thing is an childish ouroboros of pure stupidity. Let them fight it out, at least they both bring something of value that way.
 
balls of snow

balls of snow

Member
Of course they would be capital Sensitive about it lol. Cant help themselves to not be in the box we put them in.
Still I judge a game based on its own merits rather than whether a consultation company Is involve or not.
 
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March Climber

March Climber

Member
Faust said:
One of the biggest games in recent years is Final Fantasy VII Remake and Rebirth. Both prominently feature a black main character and nothing regarding that character was deemed “woke”.

Same when they announced Blade.

Same when they announced GTA V, Watch Dogs 2, Half Life Alyx, Dishonored Mask of the Outsider, Mafia 3, and plenty more.

Plenty of games can have black main characters and not be considered or decried as being “woke”.
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The problem isn't with the established I.P.'s. The problem lies with unestablished I.P.'s. It's unfortunate that these conversations tend to go this way because people will end up using those established I.P.'s to bolster a point.
Faust said:
Despite your best efforts to try and falsely associate being anti-woke/anti-slacktivist as being racist/bigoted, that was never the case.
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My effort here isn't this. I just want to make it clear for everyone here, my point earlier was this:

March Climber said:
If you mean the definition of the word being too fluid, I find it to be a problem because the ones who are using it to define too many things they don't like, are making it much harder for the ones who are actually using it to point out real tangible issues within the entertainment industry.

There is a big difference to say "I don't like this because it's inaccurate to the source material, it puts activism or modernism in parts that detract from the art, or it generally distracts from the art' vs 'I don't like this because _____(gender/race) is in it.'
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I knew I should have trusted my gut and not even bothered discussing this stuff, but sometimes I enjoy the deep dive conversations. What sucks is when I'm being shoved onto another side of the fence because my points aren't 100% in alignment with others here.

Nickolaidas said:
Pretty easy. You write her with flaws, insecurities, a mix of good and bad qualities, but generally make her sympathetic enough to be likable and relatable. You avoid making a flawless paragon of perfection while all the men around her are toxic, racist with sub-normal intellect or beta bitches and you have a solid black character whom the vast majority of male and female players will have no problem using as their avatar in the game.

Oh, and you avoid making her look like this bitch.
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Let's say you're in charge of this project. How can you make that come across in a reveal trailer? Like how can you get people to be enticed in your new I.P. reveal knowing that people might initially be turned off by it due to optics?
 
Lambogenie

Lambogenie

Member
Too much money to waste on dumb shit like these modern "consultants" sharing opinions, for the most part. Same as dubious DEI guest speakers and other underqualified diversity hires (I don't blame the ones smart enough to milk for the $$$ though, but the ones dumb enough to believe they're a special snowflake are a pain).
 
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Angry_Megalodon

Angry_Megalodon

Member
March Climber said:
if there is any type of hard fantasy(like fantasy creatures) inserted into the historical piece, then technically anything should be open, but people will still claim it is woke when that fantasy piece stars someone who is not from that culture.
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As a fantasy writer, I say no to this particular misconception. Writing "fantasy" or whatever fiction doesn't give you free rein to do whatever you like. Unless they are told differently, readers presume that the rules of our world also apply to the fantasy world. If something is different, that needs explanation. Cleopatra, a viking or a mermaid being black are dumb ideas, no matter if it's non-fiction or fantasy. To do that properly, you need to create a worldbuilding that supports it. It's never the case with these people, because they don't give a damn about storytelling. It's always "the message" and nothing more.

Characters are not woke because of their race or sexuality. What makes them woke is that they serve no other purpose than being an avatar through whom the writer preaches to the audience. These characters are mostly flawless self-inserts with no dramatic arc or evolution because what is perfect cannot evolve. Them being POC or gay is just a cheap critic-armor so people don't call them out for what they actually are.

Nobody has any problem with Michonne from TWD, the female assassin squad of Kill Bill, Trinity/Morpheus from Matrix, and hundreds of great characters that existed before these vultures polluted the entertainment industry.
 
Nickolaidas

Nickolaidas

Member
March Climber said:
Let's say you're in charge of this project. How can you make that come across in a reveal trailer? Like how can you get people to be enticed in your new I.P. reveal knowing that people might initially be turned off by it due to optics?
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For a reveal trailer?

Step One: I make her sexy and gorgeous.

Step two: If it's an action game, I make her defeat enemies with dexterity and / or stealth. I EXPLICITLY AVOID making her fight as if she was Conan the Barbarian.

But seriously, for a reveal trailer, all I need to do in order to make people realize this isn't a woke project is to give her big tits, a plump ass and a gorgeous face. That immediately will make male and female players happy and realize this isn't a going to be a woke shitshow.
 
semiconscious

semiconscious

Member
Sgt.Asher said:
I don't understand why companies would pay for sweet baby consulting in the first place. Writing for "MODERN AUDIENCES" is brain dead simple.
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in a word, 'posturing'...

we're supposed to think that insomniac, following decades of success, somehow forgot how to please audiences? like 'modern' audiences are so dramatically different from previous audiences that you actually need the opinions of some random 20-something 'experts'? I just see this being all about posturing, about demonstrating they're 'allies'. it's all mind-bogglingly stupid/vapid, I'd assume that the older insomniac crowd know this, & don't actually buy into any of it, & the fact that the company's actually paying for it? simply stupefying...
 
diffusionx

diffusionx

Gold Member
This is exactly the sort of behavior I would expect from a shitlib that works at Sweet Baby

Of course, the only reason why someone would behave this way is because they knew they were being intentionally subversive and doing things the audience doesn't want. Because otherwise, this would practically be an advertisement for your work.
 
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D

DeltaPolarBear

Member
If Sweet Baby Inc. actually offer a service where they make a game BETTER, then they should be happy that there is someone out there pointing out their contribution. It should make them more public and thus get them more fame for the good work they do.

However, if SBI know as a fact that they are making games WORSE, then they would be ashamed of being names and shamed and would want the very fact they exist to be hidden from the public.

If the public doesn't want to play games you get involved in, maybe you are doing something wrong.
 
March Climber

March Climber

Member
Angry_Megalodon said:
As a fantasy writer, I say no to this particular misconception. Writing "fantasy" or whatever fiction doesn't give you free rein to do whatever you like. Unless they are told differently, readers presume that the rules of our world also apply to the fantasy world. If something is different, that needs explanation. Cleopatra, a viking or a mermaid being black are dumb ideas, no matter if it's non-fiction or fantasy. To do that properly, you need to create a worldbuilding that supports it. It's never the case with these people, because they don't give a damn about storytelling. It's always "the message" and nothing more.
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What I'm saying from this point, is that in those rare moments when the writers actually have good enough writing to create that worldbuilding to justify a black mermaid or black viking, why is it still treated as 'the message and nothing more'?
Angry_Megalodon said:
Nobody has any problem with Michonne from TWD, the female assassin squad of Kill Bill, Trinity/Morpheus from Matrix, and hundreds of great characters that existed before these vultures polluted the entertainment industry.
Click to expand...
Again, these are all established characters and brands. Of course this doesn't work retroactively, because this has been a new thing.
 
L

Last Hearth

Member
March Climber said:
I agree with this part. I will say it's a tough line to walk because if there is any type of hard fantasy(like fantasy creatures) inserted into the historical piece, then technically anything should be open, but people will still claim it is woke when that fantasy piece stars someone who is not from that culture.

I remember another poster said this months ago when we were discussing the word 'woke' here. I once asked a poster 'how can a developer reasonably create a game with a black female protagonist(if that was their intent since the start) and reveal the title at a big conference without it being considered 'woke'. He took a while and then literally responded 'they can't.'

I consider that a pretty big problem and pretty sad as well.
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Actually it's not that hard, tell me that someone like who has credibility for not being part of the woke mob is creatively involved in the project.
 
Nickolaidas

Nickolaidas

Member
March Climber said:
What I'm saying from this point, is that in those rare moments when the writers actually have good enough writing to create that worldbuilding to justify a black mermaid or black viking, why is it still treated as 'the message and nothing more'?
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If the characters are written decently and I can emphasize with them, I would be willing to oversee the character's skin color as wokeness, even if it was intended as such.

For example, Baldur's Gate 3 is woke as fuck. All the female characters of your party have action/melee/fighting roles while almost all male characters are the 'wizard', the 'thief', the 'warlock', etc. Roles which traditionally were more suited for females, and vice versa. However, the characters are well written, the females do not humiliate the males or talk down to them without being talked down in response, men have badass moments, females have badass moments.

Basically, the good writing and compelling characterization makes you forget about the wokeness, for the most part. So yes, you CAN have wokeness in a game AND make its story and characters good and relatable.
 
HoodWinked

HoodWinked

Member
when it comes to things that people aren't aware of, any attention is a good thing like this curators group. since they're gaining exposure.

but if it's something like this activist consultant company their clients are for major releases which already have market saturation so people discovering this actually causes negative exposure.

It's kind of like what happened to bud light, they already have such high market saturation that controversy only turns off existing customers not gain new ones.
 
S

SidViscous

Member
Nickolaidas said:
You should watch Az's video on that trailer. He makes some pretty good points - you basically see Indiana Jones getting rescued and belittled by his female sidekick, and the devs stated that she is the one who has an actual narrative purpose in the game's McGuffin, not Indie.
Click to expand...

You need to stop with this fearmongering, nobody is stupid enough to not make an Indy game about Indy, that's like making a DC game where you shoot batman point blank in the head and piss on the Flash, what next? you'll be telling us they are making games about gay dinosaurs! get a life!
 
LegendOfKage

LegendOfKage

Member
March Climber said:
He's making things worse, but he does have a point about the word woke. The definition of it needs to be more solid than it is because it continues to change depending upon who uses it.
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People will gladly point out that "woke" isn't even a real thing, because no one can agree on a definition of what that word even means, but then those same people will gladly use words like alt-right, far-right, racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, misogynist, etc, as if all of those words have a universally agreed upon meaning, and no one ever disagrees with their use. And that's especially the case with "alt-right" and "far-right" which is basically a mirror image "when one side goes too far" version of "woke" and before that "SJW."

But if the world is truly wanting a universally agreed upon definition for the word, might I suggest mine:

LegendOfKage said:
When views on race and gender take on the worst characteristics of religious extremism, including being intolerant, judgmental, and censorious, and also prone to ostracism, sanctimony, hypocrisy, justification of cruelty, etc

If you have another word to describe this mindset, please suggest it. If you want people to stop using the term because it doesn't have a universally agreed upon definition, then I'm sorry, but that's just the nature of language. That said, I usually avoid the word as well, because it is divisive and generally makes people defensive.
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I wrote that weeks ago, and a lot of those things apply to the tweets from the sweet baby guy in the first post of this thread, so I think it's a fairly accurate list. But like I said, I try to avoid the word myself, because it generally doesn't help conversation. Labels and "teams" in general are horrible for nuance.
 
captainnapalm

captainnapalm

Member
Sweet Baby is awful but people shouldn't think that if they disappear it is somehow going to fix the writing in modern games. Most western devs are plenty woke enough as it is without Sweet Baby around. I think they just use Sweet Baby as consultants for writing black characters or minorities, because god forbid a white person should write a black person, right. That's a big no-no in these weirdos' world. They're just another symptom of a much larger problem.
 
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Kacho

Kacho

Member
captainnapalm said:
Sweet Baby is awful but people shouldn't think that if they disappear it is somehow going to fix the writing in modern games. Most western devs are plenty woke enough as it is without Sweet Baby around. I think they just use Sweet Baby as consultants for writing black characters or minorities, because god forbid a white person should write a black person, right. That's a big no-no in these weirdos' world. They're just another symptom of a much larger problem.
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No one thinks that. Sweet Baby is just an easy target after they gained infamy for being associated with the train wreck of a story in Suicide Squad.

I think it’s great to see people pushing back on this stuff. Make your voices heard.
 
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