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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen

SlimySnake

Member
Vr at 30 is a recipe for a puke party dude.

I already notice the difference between my rift at 90 frame and my quest1 at 70, 30 would be fucking terrible.
Lol I worded that wrong. I was trying to say that a PS5 only Horizon targeting 30 fps would look far better than this since this is likely rendering at 120 fps.

On a related note, I have been playing Horizon on PC at 4k 60 fps using DLSS in quality mode, and tried to see if i can hit 120 fps if I went all the way down to DLSS 1440p, nope. 80 FPS on average. Pretty much never hits 90. I am surprised Kojima got the same engine to run at 4k 120 fps using DLSS and Horizon struggles to hit even 90 FPS at half the resolution. This is with pretty much no action.
 

Neilg

Member
That looks like one guy knocked it together in a couple of weeks in his spare time.

He's using models from kitbash which are supposed to be for background use, the people animation is handled by anima which is shit and gives everyone robot arms, then he's letting lumen figure out the lighting. it's unoptimised, flickers like mad and has a ton of visual artifacts. We can expect a LOT more than this by the end of this gen.
 

SlimySnake

Member
This game looks more and more cross gen the more I see it. Some of the lighting is really last gen. The dusk setting typically looks great in other games but here it just looks ugly.




The lighting in this trailer looks way better.


Reveal Trailer dusk lighting:



Other gifs:



It's a shame because the gameplay reveal looked incredible and pretty much on par with what we had seen in the reveal trailer, but it's clear to me that particular area received a lot more love than other areas shown in the latest trailer.




This last shot looks the best, but it is pretty much the only thing in the 2 minute trailer that looks on par with what they showed in the reveal trailer.

 

Sosokrates

Founder of western console warring.
This game looks more and more cross gen the more I see it. Some of the lighting is really last gen. The dusk setting typically looks great in other games but here it just looks ugly.




The lighting in this trailer looks way better.


Reveal Trailer dusk lighting:



Other gifs:



It's a shame because the gameplay reveal looked incredible and pretty much on par with what we had seen in the reveal trailer, but it's clear to me that particular area received a lot more love than other areas shown in the latest trailer.




This last shot looks the best, but it is pretty much the only thing in the 2 minute trailer that looks on par with what they showed in the reveal trailer.


I wouldn't trust pre release game trailers from Sony(or the majority of Pubs) TLOU2 and GoT both had inferior visuals compared to there initial showings.
Forbidden west might match its initial showings because its coming out on PS5, but I eould not be surprised if it misses the mark in some areas.

Also an open world game is a different ball game, you need the resources on time of Rockstar to polish every area of an open world game.
 
I wouldn't trust pre release game trailers from Sony(or the majority of Pubs) TLOU2 and GoT both had inferior visuals compared to there initial showings.
Forbidden west might match its initial showings because its coming out on PS5, but I eould not be surprised if it misses the mark in some areas.

Also an open world game is a different ball game, you need the resources on time of Rockstar to polish every area of an open world game.
Also, that lighting style might be part of the art style, not really a limitation of the hardware, but an artistic choice.
 

Neilg

Member
The dusk setting typically looks great in other games but here it just looks ugly.

Reveal Trailer dusk lighting:

Neither of those are set at dusk. Dusk is after the sun has gone below the horizon.

I agree the tribes trailer looks kind of rough. Maybe it's a HDR converting issue? all the white points are blown out with color banding in the clouds of other shots, I really hope the final game doesnt have that issue.
 
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Hunnybun

Member
This game looks more and more cross gen the more I see it. Some of the lighting is really last gen. The dusk setting typically looks great in other games but here it just looks ugly.




The lighting in this trailer looks way better.


Reveal Trailer dusk lighting:



Other gifs:



It's a shame because the gameplay reveal looked incredible and pretty much on par with what we had seen in the reveal trailer, but it's clear to me that particular area received a lot more love than other areas shown in the latest trailer.




This last shot looks the best, but it is pretty much the only thing in the 2 minute trailer that looks on par with what they showed in the reveal trailer.


I think you need to wait to see more gameplay before judging.

The gameplay we saw was much better than any of the cinematic footage they've shown.
 

SlimySnake

Member
Did a quick edit to dial back the intense haze and filter look... it looks so much better graded to a neutral palette. and this is a crap effort because it's from a hazy, blown out youtube source.

That does look better.

And yes, that is by far the worst looking area in the trailer. I am playing Horizon now and this shot looks worse than any area in that game.

Looking back at the PS5 reveal trailer, it definitely has a pre-rendered feel to it. I know they said its captured on a PS5, but they said that for Demon Souls and still included a lot of the CG intro scenes in that trailer.
 

SlimySnake

Member
I think you need to wait to see more gameplay before judging.

The gameplay we saw was much better than any of the cinematic footage they've shown.
I think that was just the vertical slice. The level itself was very linear and was basically touched up to make it look as good as they can on the PS5. It looked far better than any of the open world stuff shown since.
 

Hunnybun

Member
I think that was just the vertical slice. The level itself was very linear and was basically touched up to make it look as good as they can on the PS5. It looked far better than any of the open world stuff shown since.

But they've barely shown any gameplay since? Just a second or 2 here and there. I think it's too early to say.
 

Haggard

Member
Do we know how the PS4->PS5 upgrade will work in games like Horizon btw?
Do you just put in your PS4 Disc and you automatically get the PS5-Version upgrade downloaded or are there manual steps via the Store or something?

edit: found it

 
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I don't trust Sony anymore either that the game will look just as the initial gameplay reveal, especially after the recent footage of open sections looking a clear step below. As someone else pointed out, Sony downgraded both Last of Us 2 and ghost of tsushima, from their first gameplay demos to final release. It's looking like the same will happen with Forbidden West, despite being on ps5.

Sony has let me down a few times in terms of graphics on ps5. Most notably with their "ps5 upgrades" of ps4 games. Ghost of tsushima Directors cut didn't actually improve the graphics, just a small resolution increase on ps5. The upcoming Uncharted 4 Remaster, it's already pretty much been stated that the graphics won't be improved, just the framerate. Not even a resolution increase in the 60 fps mode.

Demons Souls, Ratchet, and Returnal all delivered beautifully but those last gen "directors cuts", last of us 2 (it's still only 1440p) and what looks to be gt7 are all not very impressive for ps5. Can't count on Sony to put the effort in with certain projects which is very much not like them typically
 

Hunnybun

Member
I don't trust Sony anymore either that the game will look just as the initial gameplay reveal, especially after the recent footage of open sections looking a clear step below. As someone else pointed out, Sony downgraded both Last of Us 2 and ghost of tsushima, from their first gameplay demos to final release. It's looking like the same will happen with Forbidden West, despite being on ps5.

Sony has let me down a few times in terms of graphics on ps5. Most notably with their "ps5 upgrades" of ps4 games. Ghost of tsushima Directors cut didn't actually improve the graphics, just a small resolution increase on ps5. The upcoming Uncharted 4 Remaster, it's already pretty much been stated that the graphics won't be improved, just the framerate. Not even a resolution increase in the 60 fps mode.

Demons Souls, Ratchet, and Returnal all delivered beautifully but those last gen "directors cuts", last of us 2 (it's still only 1440p) and what looks to be gt7 are all not very impressive for ps5. Can't count on Sony to put the effort in with certain projects which is very much not like them typically

LOL there's no way they'll downgrade the actual gameplay footage they only showed about 6 months ago. Apart from anything else, they showed recent clips of it on the blog, from the same area, looking just as good.

TLOU2 and GOT were both more than 2 years out when they were shown that E3, so they probably had reasonable hopes of hitting those targets. And it's not like they missed by much, anyway.
 

SlimySnake

Member
But they've barely shown any gameplay since? Just a second or 2 here and there. I think it's too early to say.
The vga trailer was ask gameplay caltured by Sunhi legend.

This tribal trailer and the messiness trailer are basically gameplay shots with a tracking camera. Even if they are cutscenes, The game isn’t going to magically look better in gameplay. Cutscenes always look better than gameplay.
 
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VFXVeteran

PlayStation Fanclub
The vga trailer was ask gameplay caltured by Sunhi legend.

This tribal trailer and the messiness trailer are basically gameplay shots with a tracking camera. Even if they are cutscenes, The game isn’t going to magically look better in gameplay. Cutscenes always look better than gameplay.
I think people's expectations on graphics tech is completely out of reality concerning new generation consoles. Expectations should be on the low side most of the time as to not be disappointed. We saw this same disappointment last gen from the demos and what the hardware could actually do by the end of the cycle. We don't need to declare all problems from the previous generation will be solved JUST because it's a new generation.
 

SlimySnake

Member
I don't trust Sony anymore either that the game will look just as the initial gameplay reveal, especially after the recent footage of open sections looking a clear step below. As someone else pointed out, Sony downgraded both Last of Us 2 and ghost of tsushima, from their first gameplay demos to final release. It's looking like the same will happen with Forbidden West, despite being on ps5.

Sony has let me down a few times in terms of graphics on ps5. Most notably with their "ps5 upgrades" of ps4 games. Ghost of tsushima Directors cut didn't actually improve the graphics, just a small resolution increase on ps5. The upcoming Uncharted 4 Remaster, it's already pretty much been stated that the graphics won't be improved, just the framerate. Not even a resolution increase in the 60 fps mode.

Demons Souls, Ratchet, and Returnal all delivered beautifully but those last gen "directors cuts", last of us 2 (it's still only 1440p) and what looks to be gt7 are all not very impressive for ps5. Can't count on Sony to put the effort in with certain projects which is very much not like them typically
The initial reveal section will look the same. I just don’t think they put in the same amount of work in the other areas. Its possible that after the outrage Sony had them create an incredible looking vertical slice to appease the fanbase. Its basically a linear level anyway so they can really up the details in ways they can’t on the open world chapters.

I’m mostly talking about the reveal trailer at the ps5 reveal. Everything from the lighting to the water physics and fish density has been downgraded. That trailer straight up looks prerendered now.





I’ve posted these gifs i took two years ago so many times they literally have thousands of views each. Now i feel like an ass for posting what was clearly a prerendered trailer.
 
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SlimySnake

Member
I think people's expectations on graphics tech is completely out of reality concerning new generation consoles. Expectations should be on the low side most of the time as to not be disappointed. We saw this same disappointment last gen from the demos and what the hardware could actually do by the end of the cycle. We don't need to declare all problems from the previous generation will be solved JUST because it's a new generation.
I have no idea how you can say that when we literally just saw Matrix a month ago. If that isn’t the biggest leap since the ps2 to ps3 era i don’t know what is.

This is a cross gen game. That’s why it doesnt look next Gen.
 
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Haggard

Member
The initial reveal section will look the same. I just don’t think they put in the same amount of work in the other areas. Its possible that after the outrage Sony had them create an incredible looking vertical slice to appease the fanbase. Its basically a linear level anyway so they can really up the details in ways they can’t on the open world chapters.

I’m mostly talking about the reveal trailer at the ps5 reveal. Everything from the lighting to the water physics and fish density has been downgraded. That trailer straight up looks prerendered now.





I’ve posted these gifs i took two years ago so many times they literally have thousands of views each. Now i feel like an ass for posting what was clearly a prerendered trailer.
reminds me of the situation when the PS4 launched and we knew "Deep Down" that the promises were too good to be true :D

But as usual if you point out the truckload of salt in the back of the room you`re instantly labeled a "hater" or "troll". It´s as if people forget how marketing works every gen anew.
 
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GymWolf

Gold Member
I think people's expectations on graphics tech is completely out of reality concerning new generation consoles. Expectations should be on the low side most of the time as to not be disappointed. We saw this same disappointment last gen from the demos and what the hardware could actually do by the end of the cycle. We don't need to declare all problems from the previous generation will be solved JUST because it's a new generation.
I think that nobody with a sane mind was disappointed by stuff like horizon, unchy4, tlou2, taushima, days gone, spiderman etc. running on a 1.8 tf machine with an ancient cpu and a 5400rpm hard disk...
 
I think people's expectations on graphics tech is completely out of reality concerning new generation consoles. Expectations should be on the low side most of the time as to not be disappointed. We saw this same disappointment last gen from the demos and what the hardware could actually do by the end of the cycle. We don't need to declare all problems from the previous generation will be solved JUST because it's a new generation.
I might have agreed with you if not for this, which unlike The Matrix demo is an actual game, this is far beyond anything we've seen up to now.
 

Hunnybun

Member
The vga trailer was ask gameplay caltured by Sunhi legend.

This tribal trailer and the messiness trailer are basically gameplay shots with a tracking camera. Even if they are cutscenes, The game isn’t going to magically look better in gameplay. Cutscenes always look better than gameplay.

No generally gameplay looks better than cutscenes. The jungle/beach section they showed off in the gameplay trailer looked way better than the corresponding footage shown in the reveal trailer. Games are made to look good in gameplay. Generally assets made to look good in gameplay just don't hold up well to closer scrutiny in cinematic footage.

It's hard to take anything from that trailer. The forest section actually looks fantastic imo, right up there with the jungle/beach section shown in the state of play.

I'd agree that the desert section looks worse, but we're talking about 5 seconds or so of footage. It simply doesn't warrant any conclusions.
 
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Haggard

Member
I might have agreed with you if not for this, which unlike The Matrix demo is an actual game, this is far beyond anything we've seen up to now.
First and foremost this is very limited scope marketing material from a game without as much as a release date.
Until this is actually released looking like that or they at least show the same thing running on actual console hardware with the player sitting in front of it this is worthless as a "look here" argument. We´ve had so many similar "real demos" in the past that turned out to be smoke and mirrors in the end....
 
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First and foremost this is very limited scope marketing material from a game without as much as a release date.
Until this is actually released looking like that or they at least show the same thing running on actual console hardware with the player sitting in front of it this is worthless as an "look here" argument. We´ve had so many similar "real demos" in the past that turned out to be smokes and mirrors in the end....
I'd imagine we'll get a release date at E3 later this year. The developer has said its gameplay from the game and that it will improve, what more proof is needed? If they are lying then they deserve a lot of backlash for it.
 
Dito, it's awesome!

The foliage not reacting to her movements is very bad for a supposed next generation game. Other than that it's great but certainly not next generation, I'd wager next year we will see games significantly better than this for both consoles.
 

Haggard

Member
The developer has said its gameplay from the game and that it will improve, what more proof is needed? If they are lying then they deserve a lot of backlash for it.
Uh do I really have to remind you how often this exact thing has happened in the past? Remember such prominent examples as Watchdogs which was totally actual real gameplay (ofc on a High End PC far beyond the consoles` capabilities, but totally real though)
Until a real product or at least extensive near-final gameplay material is available all promises are utterly worthless. No dev will EVER say anything that might tone down hype for the product he wants to sell.
 
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GymWolf

Gold Member
First and foremost this is very limited scope marketing material from a game without as much as a release date.
Until this is actually released looking like that or they at least show the same thing running on actual console hardware with the player sitting in front of it this is worthless as a "look here" argument. We´ve had so many similar "real demos" in the past that turned out to be smoke and mirrors in the end....
It is also true that if you guys think that horizon is the best we are gonna see during the next 6-7 years then i may have a bridge to sell...

In 2-3 years we are gonna consider horizon 2 cute.
 
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Haggard

Member
It is also true that if you guys think that horizon is the best we are gonna see during the next 6-7 years then i may have a bridge to sell...

In 2-3 years we are gonna consider horizon 2 cute.
I think we`ll continue to see a leap in general scenery detail thanks to tech like nanite putting a limit on rendering costs for anything static. I however doubt that we´ll see the same leap for the dynamic aspect of visuals, like lighting.
"Simple stuff" like every lightsource actually behaving like a lightsource which throws shadows, causes direct and indirect lightbouncing etc ....all that stuff where you get into RT territory seems way too heavy for the current console hardware to become mainstream, even "cheaper" hybrid solutions like Lumen get expensive very fast here. Something like Metro Exodus EE´s lightning for example is something I´m not expecting for a lot of games this gen.

In 7 years there should be a PS6/XSX2 and we`ll see how far we get hardware wise then.
 
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I think we`ll continue to see a leap in general scenery detail thanks to tech like nanite putting a limit on rendering costs for anything static. I however doubt that we´ll see the same leap for the dynamic aspect of visuals, like lighting.
"Simple stuff" like every lightsource actually behaving like a lightsource which throws shadows, causes direct and indirect lightbouncing etc ....all that stuff where you get into RT territory seems way too heavy for the current console hardware to become mainstream, even "cheaper" hybrid solutions like Lumen get expensive very fast here. Something like Metro Exodus EE´s lightning for example is something I´m not expecting for a lot of games.
But UE5 can do Lumen, RT Reflections and Nanite all at the same time. Metro Exodus looks like ass in comparison.
 

Hobbygaming

has been asked to post in 'Grounded' mode.
The fact that you think every generation will always be the same forever is quite telling. We know what these consoles can do at the hardware level. There won't be any magic "secret sauce" performance to untap like previous generations. We are looking at the 2nd generation with typical PC hardware components. Last gen developers had to implement PBR into their pipeline and most devs only make at most 2 games every generation. PBR was the only unique crowning achievement among all game developers last generation.

This generation, we aren't going to magically see that Matrix demo run at higher resolution, more ray-traced samples, more geometry added and higher fidelity FX @4k/60FPS. So yea, the performance/rendering sample numbers you see in this demo won't change this entire generation with this hardware.
I think most people would be satisfied with the graphics from the Matrix demo in other games this gen
 

Haggard

Member
But UE5 can do Lumen, RT Reflections and Nanite all at the same time. Metro Exodus looks like ass in comparison.
Sorry, but you`re judging based on a specific best case demo here.
And even that only ran at 1080p 24-30fps + upscaling with an absolute best case scenario for Nanite. Mix in just a few dynamic elements in a scenery and lumen becomes nearly as expensive as standard RT.
And that is only one engine.
 
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SlimySnake

Member
I think we`ll continue to see a leap in general scenery detail thanks to tech like nanite putting a limit on rendering costs for anything static. I however doubt that we´ll see the same leap for the dynamic aspect of visuals, like lighting.
"Simple stuff" like every lightsource actually behaving like a lightsource which throws shadows, causes direct and indirect lightbouncing etc ....all that stuff where you get into RT territory seems way too heavy for the current console hardware to become mainstream, even "cheaper" hybrid solutions like Lumen get expensive very fast here. Something like Metro Exodus EE´s lightning for example is something I´m not expecting for a lot of games this gen.

In 7 years there should be a PS6/XSX2 and we`ll see how far we get hardware wise then.
Matrix looks like two gens ahead of Metro RT and it is a big open world game with literally 50k cars and 50 pedestrians. In a linear game world like TLOU2 with no ray traced reflections, you should be able to get games that look like the Matrix at 1440p 30 fps on current gen consoles.
 

VFXVeteran

PlayStation Fanclub
I have no idea how you can say that when we literally just saw Matrix a month ago. If that isn’t the biggest leap since the ps2 to ps3 era i don’t know what is.

This is a cross gen game. That’s why it doesnt look next Gen.
Matrix is a demo. It does look awesome though. But Deep Down looked awesome too back then. And so did the Infiltrator demo.
 

VFXVeteran

PlayStation Fanclub
First and foremost this is very limited scope marketing material from a game without as much as a release date.
Until this is actually released looking like that or they at least show the same thing running on actual console hardware with the player sitting in front of it this is worthless as a "look here" argument. We´ve had so many similar "real demos" in the past that turned out to be smoke and mirrors in the end....
100% this. I'm not sure why people suddenly forget we had this same situation last gen with the demos. Everything is repeating itself - which is why I said we need to temper our expectations.
 
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Haggard

Member
Matrix looks like two gens ahead of Metro RT and it is a big open world game with literally 50k cars
All made out of rigid nanite Meshes which are unusable for a lot of very common objects in game worlds like Foliage or Hair f.e.
And as previously mentioned, Lumen`s costs rise exponentially the moment you`re not strictly using Nanite. The UE Demos are marketing material trying to show off the strengths of the tech, not the issues, that should never be forgotten.

In a linear game world like TLOU2 with no ray traced reflections, you should be able to get games that look like the Matrix at 1440p 30 fps on current gen consoles.
Probably.
I doubt the same goes for anything larger in scope, though, outside of very specific scenarios like the UE demo`s static Stone/Concrete environments.
We´ll see. We have literally thousands of devs who have years to figure out how to best get around any limitations they encounter.
 
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Hunnybun

Member
But UE5 can do Lumen, RT Reflections and Nanite all at the same time. Metro Exodus looks like ass in comparison.

I think the RT reflections are a mistake in the Matrix demo. They look shit and are basically the difference between a nice looking 1440p image and a blurry 1080p one.

I wonder what the cost to the GPU of lumen is versus actual RTGI a la Metro Exodus? It may be that the hardware acceleration could save some processing power. If so we might be able to get something close to the original UE5 demo at 1440p60.
 

SlimySnake

Member
Uh do I really have to remind you how often this exact thing has happened in the past? Remember such prominent examples as Watchdogs which was totally actual real gameplay (ofc on a High End PC far beyond the consoles` capabilities, but totally real though)
Until a real product or at least extensive near-final gameplay material is available all promises are utterly worthless. No dev will EVER say anything that might tone down hype for the product he wants to sell.
Yep. Hellblade 2 looks like the best looking game shown so far aside from the Matrix, but I am 100% certain that it will get downgraded. It's just a inevitable at this point. TLOU2, Days Gone, GoT, GoW, Halo all got downgraded. Five years ago, it was unimaginable to think that Sony first party games would get downgraded after the reveal. They typically looked better, but I think the Pro kinda messed things up. They created those demos on the pro and when it came to downport them they realized that the lighting budget just wasnt there on the base console. I am guessing they didnt take into account the IPC gains on the polaris cards.

Halo Infinite's slipstream engine demo was supposed to be running on the x1x specs. We all know how that turned out.

Literally the only dev who has managed to escape and actually reverse this trend is insomniac who improved the graphics in ratchet from the first reveal. They are pretty much in a league of their own when it comes to productivity and quality. While SSM, GG and PD were handicapping themselves to last gen tech, Insomniac went out and made a next gen only game in 2 years while simultaneously developing a cross gen game with state of the art ray traced reflections. I was shocked to find out ratchet started dev in 2019.
 
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