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[Mibu no ookami]

Huge boon for Epic here.

5% of Halo's revenue right off the top... That's a huge concession. I'd much rather be able to deliver 5% of revenue to employees as a salary bonus. Having to pay both salary + bonus + Epic... they're locking themselves into this for the foreseeable future.


To give you an idea of this... if Halo sold 20 million copies that would be 1.4 billion dollars in revenue. That is 70 million dollars to an outside company.

70 million is enough to fund a AAA game...

I wonder how they'll calculate the revenue of this when it ends up going directly to Game Pass. I bet it results directly in a lawsuit between Epic and Microsoft and in that lawsuit we'll probably end up seeing the revenue and profit numbers for GamePass.

 

[Bernkastel]

That is 100% incorrect. Of course you could make forge with unreal powering it. It wouldn't be the first time a different editor was bolted on top of unreal engine. You might have to go back pretty far, but there was a game release by Pseudo interactive that had a in game editor. Current halo games use a standard physics engine. Most of what you just stated is incorrect.

Oh come on, you know a Halo game based on how it plays.

Spoiler

No Unreal Engine game plays like that or whatever "standard Physics Engine" you are referring to. Some of these stuffs were copied by Bungie from Quake

Rocket jumping - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And stuff like Curb Sliding still works in Infinite.
As for Forge, I didn't mean any basic Editor. The Faber tools that 343i uses in Slipspace Engine are given to the player to make their own maps. It took over a decade for Forge to improve this much. You expect them to magically achieve all that using Unreal in 2-3 years and abandon everything? It will just be generic Unreal Shooter X.

Huge boon for Epic here.

5% of Halo's revenue right off the top... That's a huge concession. I'd much rather be able to deliver 5% of revenue to employees as a salary bonus. Having to pay both salary + bonus + Epic... they're locking themselves into this for the foreseeable future.


To give you an idea of this... if Halo sold 20 million copies that would be 1.4 billion dollars in revenue. That is 70 million dollars to an outside company.

70 million is enough to fund a AAA game...

The hell are you talking about?

Sadly just like "Fable is a MMO" or "Perfect Dark is a GAAS", people will believe this shit sourced from a youtuber with no track record.

It didn't even take 4 hours, and it seems like people will hang on to this "rumour" for concern trolling.

I wonder how they'll calculate the revenue of this when it ends up going directly to Game Pass. I bet it results directly in a lawsuit between Epic and Microsoft and in that lawsuit we'll probably end up seeing the revenue and profit numbers for GamePass.

Yeah, they do fight on court over every Unreal Engine game they make. Microsoft is not even the only console manufacturer who uses a subscription service.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Oh come on, you know a Halo game based on how it plays.

Spoiler

No Unreal Engine game plays like that or whatever "standard Physics Engine" you are referring to. Some of these stuffs were copied by Bungie from Quake

Rocket jumping - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And stuff like Curb Sliding still works in Infinite.
As for Forge, I didn't mean any basic Editor. The Faber tools that 343i uses in Slipspace Engine are given to the player to make their own maps. It took over a decade for Forge to improve this much. You expect them to magically achieve all that using Unreal in 2-3 years and abandon everything? It will just be generic Unreal Shooter X.

The hell are you talking about?

It didn't even take 4 hours, and it seems like people will hang on to this "rumour" for concern trolling.

Yeah, they do fight on court over every Unreal Engine game they make. Microsoft is not even the only console manufacturer who uses a subscription service.

Can you name me another first-party pillar-level game that uses unreal engine and is also going to have most of its revenue generated from GamePass rather than individual sales?

 

[Bernkastel]

Can you name me another first-party pillar-level game that uses unreal engine and is also going to have most of its revenue generated from GamePass rather than individual sales?

Gears of War uses Unreal Engine since its inception, the first one used to showcase Unreal Engine 3.
I don't even know why you are still holding onto "Halo Infinite switching to Uneal Engine" rumor from Sean W(even Jez walked back on supporting it), but even it somehow did all happen, Halo Infinite is a very weak argument for Game Pass. The multiplayer is entirely free to play and nothing to do with Game Pass. And since Game Pass does not include DLCs or expansions and 343 themselves are positioning Infinite as similar to MCC, none of the upcoming "Campaign DLCs" will be. A court battle with Epic over "Unreal Engine games using Game Pass" is something truly born from concern trolling in a gaming forum.
Avowed is a large Skyrim sized project in UE and mind I remind you how popular Sea of Theives or State of Decay 2 are?

State of Decay 2 Tops 10 Million Players

Undead Labs in a newly released video celebrating the fourth anniversary of State of Decay 2 has reveals [...]

www.vgchartz.com

Spoiler

Unlike State of Decay 2 which was just a AA project by 30 people, Undead Labs is rapidly expanding to make Class4, that they alway wanted

Q&A: Class4 And Design - Undead Labs

Happy Friday, survivors! To give your weekend an extra injection of awesome, I bring you our second Q&A session. In this set, we’ll talk a little more about Class4, and field a few more design-related questions. Let’s get started! Many readers have asked: “How big will Class4 be?” Short...

undeadlabs.com

State of Decay 2 is not Class4

It is very firmly State of Decay 2.

www.gamereactor.eu

Microsoft talks State of Decay 3, envisions 'much bigger' persistent online game

Undead Labs recently joined Microsoft, and already Studios lead Matt Booty is spilling the beans on its next big project.

www.windowscentral.com

This game is in Unreal Engine 5.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Gears of War uses Unreal Engine since its inception, the first one used to showcase Unreal Engine 3.
I don't even know why you are still holding onto "Halo Infinite switching to Uneal Engine" rumor from Sean W(even Jez walked back on supporting it), but even it somehow did all happen, Halo Infinite is a very weak argument for Game Pass. The multiplayer is entirely free to play and nothing to do with Game Pass. And since Game Pass does not include DLCs or expansions and 343 themselves are positioning Infinite as similar to MCC, none of the upcoming "Campaign DLCs" will be. A court battle with Epic over "Unreal Engine games using Game Pass" is something truly born from concern trolling in a gaming forum.
Avowed is a large Skyrim sized project in UE and mind I remind you how popular Sea of Theives or State of Decay 2 are?

State of Decay 2 Tops 10 Million Players

Undead Labs in a newly released video celebrating the fourth anniversary of State of Decay 2 has reveals [...]

www.vgchartz.com

Spoiler

Unlike State of Decay 2 which was just a AA project by 30 people, Undead Labs is rapidly expanding to make Class4, that they alway wanted

Q&A: Class4 And Design - Undead Labs

Happy Friday, survivors! To give your weekend an extra injection of awesome, I bring you our second Q&A session. In this set, we’ll talk a little more about Class4, and field a few more design-related questions. Let’s get started! Many readers have asked: “How big will Class4 be?” Short...

undeadlabs.com

State of Decay 2 is not Class4

It is very firmly State of Decay 2.

www.gamereactor.eu

Microsoft talks State of Decay 3, envisions 'much bigger' persistent online game

Undead Labs recently joined Microsoft, and already Studios lead Matt Booty is spilling the beans on its next big project.

www.windowscentral.com

This game is in Unreal Engine 5.

Gears of War was literally made by Epic and was a 2nd party game.

Avowed, Sea of Thieves and State of Decay are not PILLAR games... you literally said that State of Decay 2 was a AA title.

My statements were not limited to Halo Infinite, but rather the future of the Halo franchise if it becomes tied to Unreal Engine.

 

[Bernkastel]

Gears of War was literally made by Epic and was a 2nd party game.

It was second party in the 360. And now its a first party project by Coalition. Currently it has nothing to with Epic Games apart from using Unreal Engine.

Avowed, Sea of Thieves and State of Decay are not PILLAR games... you literally said that State of Decay 2 was a AA title.

What do you mean by Pillar games? Just random tags you give for convenience? I mentioned Sea of Theives and State of Decay 2 because they are very popular. And State of Decay 3 is for all purposes a AAA game. And I am sure Microsoft and Epic never went to court over any of these "Pillar Games"(or whatever you want that to mean) using Game Pass.

My statements were not limited to Halo Infinite, but rather the future of the Halo franchise if it becomes tied to Unreal Engine.

As I already said free multiplayer and new Campaigns being sold as expansions(that will not be in Game Pass anyway) will always be weak argument for Game Pass trolling. I am not even sure what you are trying to argue about here.

 

[Corndog]

Certain Affinity is 3rd party

So is kojima studio.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

It was second party in the 360. And now its a first party project by Coalition. Currently it has nothing to with Epic Games apart from using Unreal Engine.

What do you mean by Pillar games? Just random tags you give for convenience? I mentioned Sea of Theives and State of Decay 2 because they are very popular. And State of Decay 3 is for all purposes a AAA game. And I am sure Microsoft and Epic never went to court over any of these "Pillar Games"(or whatever you want that to mean) using Game Pass.

As I already said free multiplayer and new Campaigns being sold as expansions(that will not be in Game Pass anyway) will always be weak argument for Game Pass trolling. I am not even sure what you are trying to argue about here.

When it was a pillar game, it was made by Epic. It no longer matters today and the point holds true, that you don't see first party pillar games, running on unreal AND tied heavily to subscription models.

I think most people know what pillar games are... God of War, Uncharted, Gran Turismo.... these are pillar games. Right now Microsoft has Halo and Forza and that's it for pillars. Though in the past Fable and Gears were also pillars.

No one cares about a game that sold 2 million copies. Even SoD2 which sold 4.5 million copies isn't what you'd call a pillar. The game only launched for 30 dollars outside of gamepass.

I'm talking about games that sell 10, 20 million copies or have the potential to and are full priced games...

Think about the order of magnitude difference in whether Epic would want to litigate against it.

4.5 million at 30 dollars = 135 million dollars in revenue, 5 percent of which is 6.75 million dollars compared to a game that sells 20 million copies at 70 dollars = 1.4 billion in revenue or 70 million dollars in royalties.

A 3rd party or 2nd party developer would have to disclose the terms of their deal with Microsoft on how much revenue they generated through gamepass. Microsoft being the principal isn't going to enter a contract with themselves, so you have no idea how much Microsoft makes on their own game on gamepass... If you think that isn't potentially troubling for Epic, you're not paying attention.

 

[Bernkastel]

If you think that isn't potentially troubling for Epic, you're not paying attention.

Yeah, I am not going to paying attention to all your mental gymnastics about Epic and Microsoft court battle over Halo using Unreal Engine(which itself is a sketchy rumor from Sean W) and somehow magically does not apply to any other games like Sea of Thieves which used Unreal Engine because they do not fit your convenient definition of a "Pillar Game". And Halo is not even "heavily tied to Game Pass".

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Yeah, I am not going to paying attention to all your mental gymnastics about Epic and Microsoft court battle over Halo using Unreal Engine(which itself is a sketchy rumor from Sean W) and somehow magically does not apply to any other games like Sea of Thieves which used Unreal Engine because they do not fit your convenient definition of a "Pillar Game". And Halo is not even "heavily tied to Game Pass".

I mean, you're posting in this topic, so obviously we're discussing as if the rumor is true...

Size and scope make a world of difference, not sure how you don't understand that. Losing out on 10s of millions of dollars can certainly be cause for litigation, especially if this is the start of a trend. None of that is controversial or hyperbole.

 

[Raonak]

Strange that they'd use unreal when Id Tech and COD engines are owned by MS.

tbh, Unreal's dev tools are very very well supported.

but holy shit has slipstream been a complete dissaster.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Strange that they'd use unreal when Id Tech and COD engines are owned by MS.

tbh, Unreal's dev tools are very very well supported.

but holy shit has slipstream been a complete dissaster.

Less and less games use ID Tech these days. Really hasn't been well used since ID3.

The IW hasn't really been shown as versatile either, ironically stemming from ID3.

Neither of them are super suitable for Halo nor get you the experience from the vast majority of the industry the way UE4/5 will.

At that point, you might as well give the project to Infinity Ward ultimately or iD software.

 

[Dlacy13g]

I am sorry... I just can't see them switching engines mid life of the game. I believe Jez states in the recent podcast that Halo Infinite does use Unreal engine for the UI of Infinite so it stands to reason this latest rumor might be a mistake... maybe the Unreal reference is valid but applies to the UI portion of the game only

 

[LordOfChaos]

Jesus tapdancing christ if this is true. Slipspace took so dang long to make between Halo Guardians and Infinite. And what does this mean for connectivity with the base game as a launchpad for future content, 10 year plan and all that?

Sad to see one of my favorite game universes so mismanaged

 

[xcalibersa]

Why not use ID tech ? They own it now.

 

[Bernkastel]

I mean, you're posting in this topic, so obviously we're discussing as if the rumor is true...

Size and scope make a world of difference, not sure how you don't understand that. Losing out on 10s of millions of dollars can certainly be cause for litigation, especially if this is the start of a trend. None of that is controversial or hyperbole.

I posted because Jez walked back on supporting this rumor after BathroobeSparrtan's tweet chain. And I am sure a company like Microsoft is more aware of what causes litigation than some poster in a gaming forum.

Less and less games use ID Tech these days. Really hasn't been well used since ID3.

The IW hasn't really been shown as versatile either, ironically stemming from ID3.

Its not that less and less are using it, they simply can't use it anymore. After Zenimax bought id Tech, they stopped licensing id Tech to 3rd Part because they didn't want to maintain support staff. IW engine and Valve's Source Engine are forked from licensed id Tech, while Respawn licensed and modified Source Engine for Titanfall, Titanfall 2 and Apex Legends. Even Dota 2(which is very different) runs on Source Engine. They are all part of the same family.

Ancient ‘90s Code From Quake Still Controls Lights In Half-Life: Alyx

The reused code has appeared in many Valve games, including Portal

kotaku.com

Neither of them are super suitable for Halo nor get you the experience from the vast majority of the industry the way UE4/5 will.

At that point, you might as well give the project to Infinity Ward ultimately or iD software.

LMAO, id Tech and IW are more closer to Halo's engine because Halo's Physics was inspired by Quake. Let me tell you, in the early years Halo Infinite was worked in Unreal Engine, but 343i went back to modifying Blam Engine for Halo. If Halo didn't feel like a Halo game no one will care about it. And that is the most redeeming quality of Halo Infinite, it plays too well like original Halo games. This is not like Cyberpunk(not criticizing, I actually love Cyberpunk), gameplay and physics is a very important part of Halo. Unreal Engine is very different.
Also, Infinite Ward themselves need multiple support studios to maintain COD. Halo needs its own dedicated studio and will never work out as a side project by IW or id.

Jesus tapdancing christ if this is true. Slipspace took so dang long to make between Halo Guardians and Infinite. And what does this mean for connectivity with the base game as a launchpad for future content, 10 year plan and all that?

Sad to see one of my favorite game universes so mismanaged

Rumor is entirely from Sean W, and Jez is walking back on it.

A problem I have with this rumour is that it's entirely from the youtuber Sean W, who is as reliable as Nick from XboxEra. Jez seems to deny the part about new Halo game entirely and Halo itself switching to Unreal Engine, but about the Certain Affinity project he is not sure. As for ACG, I like his reviews but I wouldn't trust his rumours

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/a-huge-purchase-is-imminent-within-1-month-from-now.1616395/

This entire shit needs some confirmation from someone credible who is not Sean W or riding on another popular rumour.

I told everyone that this rumour was not reliable because it was entirely sourced from Sean W
This tweet thread is worth a read

Spoiler

We will now be able to continue with our investigation.

After our last tweet thread, you still wondering if #Halo will change engines? That's good, that's the subject we're going to cover in this Thread

One point in particular caught our attention

Before reading more, we advise you to consult our 1st Thread concerning Slipspace as well as Faber, so that you have all the necessary elements and know our sources

So, will Halo change engines? You should know that Halo FPS games are based on a rich sandbox and extensive use of the physics engine. Any other engine would need a lot of work to adapt and wouldn't be ready on day 1.

Slipspace is literally optimized for a Halo FPS game, whether it's performance management or sandboxing. That's why you can enjoy a game at 60 FPS, see 120 FPS, even in split screen locally.

Slipspace, according to our sources, was designed to meet this unique need, this genre, this very particular type of game, in its resource management. Where other motors must be able to meet all types of needs on the market.

In sum, these are Jack-of-all-trades, Master-of-none, where Slipspace is studied to excel in its field, for the particular need of a Halo FPS game.

Typically, you have recently discovered the power of the Forge. It acts as an engine within the engine. Many of Faber's tools and functions have been ported directly into the Forge, and it would be nigh-impossible to replicate in any other engine.

At least, not at the same level of quality and versatility that the Forge of Halo Infinite offers, especially concerning the links between static and dynamic objects. This includes the physics of these, and how the player can interact with all of them.

We don't even talk to you about the management of lights, shadows, debugging tools made available to players, in short, you get the idea.

As an example shared by our sources, the Pre-Fab system is imported from Faber. This is the system used by the artists of 343 Industries. The latter allows you to create elaborate & dynamic constructions, and to share instances with other creators.

Unfortunately, during development of Halo Infinite, the Pre-Fab system within Faber was causing performance issues. This is why it required a lot of extra work to be integrated into the Forge, especially coupled with the Scripting system.

And that's also why the Forge was so offbeat, our sources tell us. 343 Industries really wanted to offer an ideal system for Blacksmiths, without loss of performance, capable of giving great freedom of sharing to creators in the community.

It may be hard to believe for critics of 343 Industries, but the studio really wanted to please players and creators by offering tools as advanced as the support allowed them, to give you complete freedom. creative.

If we had to take an example, it's a bit like Pokémon. The engine used by GameFreak is far from the best available on the market, we all know that, but it is adapted to the needs of the game and optimized for it, and allows the team to move forward properly.

So, will Halo Infinite change engines? Absolutely not. It's not on the program according to our sources, they even wondered how it could have been a credible rumor. It makes no sense, from a human, technical and business point of view.

Halo Infinite, at this point, as well as all content for the game, all future experiences for the title, are, and will be, designed through and for Slipspace.

On the other hand, one point strongly challenged us during our exchanges. Our sources tell us that a very small part of the internal team at 343 Industries is currently working on "new experiences" Halo.

When we say “new experiences”, this includes the exploration of new avenues for the continuation of the adventures of the Master Chief, but also other projects in Research & Development (R& ;D) , as could be be AR and VR experiences (these are just examples).

For these "new experiences", they are indeed evaluating if Slipspace meets these needs, or if it is necessary to call on other resources, and therefore an engine more suitable for these experiences , like Unreal or Unity for example.

As we explained to you above, Slipspace responds admirably well to the needs of a Halo FPS, but typically, to give a very telling example, you will not produce Halo Wars 3 with this engine, it is not just not suited for the task at the present time.

For example, Unreal could be ideal for Virtual or Augmented Reality experiences, where Faber would not meet the needs of these platforms and would require too many resources to be adapted to them. Could this be the source of this rumour?

Suddenly, we are perhaps a little too naive, and we put forward the following hypothesis: Maybe some Halo Content Creators have sources somewhere, indeed. But then, 2 possibilities:

Either these sources deliberately mislead these Content Creators by sharing bits of information free to interpret, or far too old to be relevant. Or...

Either these Creators voluntarily distort the words of their source to make the click while keeping a very small background of truth so as not to be treated as a 100% liar by having absolutely everything wrong. We want to believe in the goodness of people, so we don't judge.

This ends our Thread regarding #Halo Infinite & Slipspace, and whether or not the game will change engines (no). Our next Thread will focus on the future of Halo Infinite, and there we have some rather interesting information. See you soon

Spoiler

Here is the result of our investigation regarding Slipspace, the reality of the tool and its impact on #Halo , in the form of Thread

Are Faber & Slipspace bad tools as you have often heard? It's not really the story that we had.

The sequel

Before continuing, a transparency point and a message. First, our sources. We have several, which we have classified into 2 categories, detailed below: external sources, and internal sources. That is to say you ask yourself?

Our external sources wish to remain anonymous, and given their responsibilities, we understand. We checked their identities. The deal is simple: we do our research, and they agree to confirm, correct or deny our findings. Absolute confidence.

Internal sources? Well that's us! Through research, data-mining and also luck, we find many elements that allow us to establish causal links. We are rarely wrong because we do not share anything if we are not 99% certain.

Finally, a message to Youtubers #Halo : You have the trust of the community, and therefore, a great responsibility. If there's nothing to say about the game, it's sad, but it's better to say nothing than to damage the morale of the community with inventions.

Now that all that is said, let's get started! You may have seen on Twitter that we were researching Slipspace and Faber, 343 Industries' tool for Halo Infinite. We wanted to know if the rumor that the tool was difficult was true

Answer: No, not quite. According to our sources, Slipspace & Faber would even be excellent, currently qualified as sometimes much better than other publicly available engines and tools, such as Unity or Unreal Engine. We summarize this for you

For example, Faber offers an incredible experience, if not better, on the following points: - Automatic organization of projects - Optimized cutting of 3D levels and assets to support different platforms - Excellent procedural generation tools

- A terrain editor qualified as "amazing"
- Very good tools for building the world and experience, to manage the placement of elements, AIs or actions pre-defined by the Designers responsible for missions and sections in the campaign.

That said, Faber seems to have its share of problems, for example:
- Crash several times a day
- Very powerful for elaborate uses but may require crossbeam solutions for simple things
- Undoing an action had a 75% chance of crashing the project

- In case of crash loading assets could take hours
- Some at 343 were going to take their lunch break while everything was loading
- Artists could sometimes lose hours of work if they weren't careful about undoing action (lived experience)

That said, these issues were true during the development of Halo Infinite only. Since then, 343 Industries has worked a lot on it. Although some of these issues persist, our sources describe Faber as today "much more stable and faster"

This means that there are now far fewer crashes when producing assets, maps or new experiences, allowing artists to work more efficiently. It's not the tools that are currently holding 343 Industries back from moving fast.

The problem actually comes from the manpower still available to create content on Halo Infinite. Between departures and a Microsoft-wide hiring freeze, 343 has struggled to keep pace with the demands and needs that a Game As A Service game requires.

It is not simply necessary to understand the production of 3D elements, but also the programming required for them, storing the data, monitoring the actions and statistics of the players, requiring engineers in addition to the artists available.

Basically, understand that just because you see a working "DMR" in a leak doesn't mean it would work properly online. Weapon kills need to be tracked, logged, etc. And that requires missing manpower.

The team had to receive help from studios to produce elements, unfortunately, external events prevented this. 343 Industries tries to optimize their resources as best as possible to move forward on the right path, but we will come back to this subject later.

So... Are Slipspace and Faber the hell that rumors have been selling you lately? According to our sources, absolutely not, quite the contrary. Like any tool, problems persist of course. But worries about 343 Industries' pacing lie elsewhere.

This ends our Thread about Slipspace and Faber, 343 Industries' tool for creating content on Halo Infinite. Our next Thread will focus on the relationship between Slipspace and #Halo , and whether or not the engine is suitable for licensing. See you soon

Did people think that they will abandon everything after investing so much time and money into it, making the best Forge mode (which just would not even be possible in Unreal)?


56:43 After this, Jez now seems to be regretting writing that article. He is sure Halo Infinite is not "switching engines"(as if there is a magic switch button) but is 50/50 on Tatanka being on Unreal. Meanwhile dataminers are already detecting Slipspace Engine builds of Tatanka.
1:05:34 Oh Jez, you are wrong again. The UI of MCC is in Unreal Engine, not Infinite.
Sadly just like "Fable is a MMO" or "Perfect Dark is a GAAS", people will believe this shit sourced from a youtuber with no track record.

I believe Jez states in the recent podcast that Halo Infinite does use Unreal engine for the UI of Infinite so it stands to reason this latest rumor might be a mistake...

That is another part which Jez got wrong. Nowhere it is mentioned that Halo Infinite uses Unreal Engine for its UI, mind you they have to mention that they are using Unreal. Its actually the UI of MCC that was done using Unreal Engine, Jez seems to have mistaken that for Infinite.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Let me tell you, in the early years Halo Infinite was worked in Unreal Engine, but 343i went back to modifying Blam Engine for Halo

This is interesting, do you have links for that or rumors? Just trying to see if we have some public trail we can assemble…

 

[reksveks]

I wonder how they'll calculate the revenue of this when it ends up going directly to Game Pass. I bet it results directly in a lawsuit between Epic and Microsoft and in that lawsuit we'll probably end up seeing the revenue and profit numbers for GamePass.

Can you link the section of the UE licensing deal that Epic would be pointing to in this hypothetical court case?

 

[Bernkastel]

This is interesting, do you have links for that or rumors? Just trying to see if we have some public trail we can assemble…

Classic Halo Esports and HCS Grassroots 2020 Discussion Thread

web.archive.org

Ctrl+F Unreal. I remember this was also told by some other sources, but now if you try to Google its full of the recent Sean W rumor. 343i already tried replicating Halo in Unreal Engine and decided to stick to improving Blam Engine. Considering MCC's UI elements are on Unreal Engine, they probably considered a Unreal Engine switch before they even started developing Infinite.

 

[JordoftheDead]

If they worked for years and years on an engine that well resourced only to dump it before the first major update after the release of Infinite it would be an absolute clusterfuck embarrassment of the highest order and the 343 executives and lead engineers have a stain on their CVs.

 

[The_Mike]

I doubt they'll change the engine after the game has been released. Has that ever been done before?

If rather believe the game gets a sequel faster.

 

[th4tguy]

Huge boon for Epic here.

5% of Halo's revenue right off the top... That's a huge concession. I'd much rather be able to deliver 5% of revenue to employees as a salary bonus. Having to pay both salary + bonus + Epic... they're locking themselves into this for the foreseeable future.


To give you an idea of this... if Halo sold 20 million copies that would be 1.4 billion dollars in revenue. That is 70 million dollars to an outside company.

70 million is enough to fund a AAA game...

I wonder how they'll calculate the revenue of this when it ends up going directly to Game Pass. I bet it results directly in a lawsuit between Epic and Microsoft and in that lawsuit we'll probably end up seeing the revenue and profit numbers for GamePass.

343/MS an negotiate a one time fee instead. It usually happens that way for the larger publishers.

 

[Lasha]

Huge boon for Epic here.

5% of Halo's revenue right off the top... That's a huge concession. I'd much rather be able to deliver 5% of revenue to employees as a salary bonus. Having to pay both salary + bonus + Epic... they're locking themselves into this for the foreseeable future.


To give you an idea of this... if Halo sold 20 million copies that would be 1.4 billion dollars in revenue. That is 70 million dollars to an outside company.

70 million is enough to fund a AAA game...

I wonder how they'll calculate the revenue of this when it ends up going directly to Game Pass. I bet it results directly in a lawsuit between Epic and Microsoft and in that lawsuit we'll probably end up seeing the revenue and profit numbers for GamePass.

The issue is probably already settled between Epic and Microsoft since Sea of Thieves has been an Unreal Engine game since it's release.

 

[Stephen Curry]

Doubt

 

[CuNi]

I told everyone that this rumour was not reliable because it was entirely sourced from Sean W
This tweet thread is worth a read

Spoiler

Did people think that they will abandon everything after investing so much time and money into it, making the best Forge mode (which just would not even be possible in Unreal)?


56:43 After this, Jez now seems to be regretting writing that article. He is sure Halo Infinite is not "switching engines"(as if there is a magic switch button) but is 50/50 on Tatanka being on Unreal. Meanwhile dataminers are already detecting Slipspace Engine builds of Tatanka.
1:05:34 Oh Jez, you are wrong again. The UI of MCC is in Unreal Engine, not Infinite.
Sadly just like "Fable is a MMO" or "Perfect Dark is a GAAS", people will believe this shit sourced from a youtuber with no track record.

Without saying the rumor is true (I'd wish but I doubt they'd switch engines DURING a games lifespan), you are incorrect on the statement that UE can't replicate any of the Halo feels.
You have full access to UE5 source code, you absolutely CAN adapt it to have physics behave exactly like Halo and even build in Forge Support etc. Just because no other game did it doesn't mean it's impossible.

Also, I know that they create the Slipspace-Engine specifically for Halo but... c'mon. Let's be honest. The Slipspace Engine is far from being a good engine for a game it seems.
The tech demo they used to showcase what the engine is technically capable of looked great visually, I give them that, but with how the end result looks like and how it plays, it's absolutely abyssal performance.

 

[oldergamer]

Oh come on, you know a Halo game based on how it plays.

Spoiler

No Unreal Engine game plays like that or whatever "standard Physics Engine" you are referring to. Some of these stuffs were copied by Bungie from Quake

http://[URL][URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rocket_jumping

[/URL][/URL]
And stuff like Curb Sliding still works in Infinite.
As for Forge, I didn't mean any basic Editor. The Faber tools that 343i uses in Slipspace Engine are given to the player to make their own maps. It took over a decade for Forge to improve this much. You expect them to magically achieve all that using Unreal in 2-3 years and abandon everything? It will just be generic Unreal Shooter X.

The hell are you talking about?

It didn't even take 4 hours, and it seems like people will hang on to this "rumour" for concern trolling.

Yeah, they do fight on court over every Unreal Engine game they make. Microsoft is not even the only console manufacturer who uses a subscription service.

This is totally incorrect. Sorry, but forge worked with the old engine that bungie created, and its going to work with Slipspace. There is no special magic that makes recreating halo in unreal engine an issue. Not when you have the unreal source code. Not only that but 343i was using unreal long before switching to Slipspace. It was part of the reason it took so long for infinite to release.

 

[Bernkastel]

Without saying the rumor is true (I'd wish but I doubt they'd switch engines DURING a games lifespan), you are incorrect on the statement that UE can't replicate any of the Halo feels.
You have full access to UE5 source code, you absolutely CAN adapt it to have physics behave exactly like Halo and even build in Forge Support etc. Just because no other game did it doesn't mean it's impossible.

Also, I know that they create the Slipspace-Engine specifically for Halo but... c'mon. Let's be honest. The Slipspace Engine is far from being a good engine for a game it seems.
The tech demo they used to showcase what the engine is technically capable of looked great visually, I give them that, but with how the end result looks like and how it plays, it's absolutely abyssal performance.

They already tried to do that

Classic Halo Esports and HCS Grassroots 2020 Discussion Thread

web.archive.org

Ctrl+F Unreal. I remember this was also told by some other sources, but now if you try to Google its full of the recent Sean W rumor. 343i already tried replicating Halo in Unreal Engine and decided to stick to improving Blam Engine. Considering MCC's UI elements are on Unreal Engine, they probably considered a Unreal Engine switch before they even started developing Infinite.

And they failed. It just didn't work even after they spent 2 years trying to make Halo work in Unreal Engine.

This is totally incorrect. Sorry, but forge worked with the old engine that bungie created, and its going to work with Slipspace. There is no special magic that makes recreating halo in unreal engine an issue. Not when you have the unreal source code. Not only that but 343i was using unreal long before switching to Slipspace. It was part of the reason it took so long for infinite to release.

I love how you came to dunk on me after seeing someone agreed with you.

Sorry, but forge worked with the old engine that bungie created, and its going to work with Slipspace. There is no special magic that makes recreating halo in unreal engine an issue.

What does that even mean? Faber tools works in Slipspace because its derived from Blam Engine which evolved alongside them.

Spoiler

There is no special magic that makes recreating halo in unreal engine an issue.

2 years of dev time wasted on this. Why didn't Bethesda just switch to Unreal Engine, heck why didn't they just use the in house id Tech? As someone who mods Skyrim I can tell you that engine is not something you can replicate in UE games(like how every item can be picked up and the game will always remember where in the entire world you dropped that).
Why did not Flight Simulator use Unreal Engine?
Why does not Forza use Unreal Engine?
Why does not Call of Duty use Unreal Engine?
Why does not Rockstar use Unreal Engine?
Why does not everyone just switch to Unreal?
Respwan uses there own version of Source Engine(something much more closer to what Halo needs then Unreal Engine), and a dev talked about Forge




I don't think people understand what they mean when they say "they have the source code, they can just use their tools inside Unreal". Its like Microsoft decides to fork FreeBSD so that all Windows apps magically work on the new OS, it will take a decade and still may not work. Game Engines are different

That is 100% incorrect.

This is totally incorrect.

I already told you everything you can notice Halo's feel by playing it and you always use this magic phrase.

 

[Del_X]

Oh come on, you know a Halo game based on how it plays.

Spoiler

No Unreal Engine game plays like that or whatever "standard Physics Engine" you are referring to. Some of these stuffs were copied by Bungie from Quake

Rocket jumping - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And stuff like Curb Sliding still works in Infinite.
As for Forge, I didn't mean any basic Editor. The Faber tools that 343i uses in Slipspace Engine are given to the player to make their own maps. It took over a decade for Forge to improve this much. You expect them to magically achieve all that using Unreal in 2-3 years and abandon everything? It will just be generic Unreal Shooter X.

The hell are you talking about?

It didn't even take 4 hours, and it seems like people will hang on to this "rumour" for concern trolling.

Yeah, they do fight on court over every Unreal Engine game they make. Microsoft is not even the only console manufacturer who uses a subscription service.

That's an entire post highlighting sunk cost fallacy.

They spent 6 years making infinite and overhauling the engine and they still can't deliver on a decent timeline. I always figured that if they switch engines, they will need to validate the feasibility of recreating the "feel" of Halo before doing it. That was the entire reason they went down the slipspace money-hole and time-sink. If Unreal can finally be flexible enough to let Halo feel like Halo, they should switch. They'd be stupid to use this ugly and developer-unfriendly engine if they can finally dump it.

 

[Bernkastel]

That's an entire post highlighting sunk cost fallacy.

They spent 6 years making infinite and overhauling the engine and they still can't deliver on a decent timeline. I always figured that if they switch engines, they will need to validate the feasibility of recreating the "feel" of Halo before doing it. That was the entire reason they went down the slipspace money-hole and time-sink. If Unreal can finally be flexible enough to let Halo feel like Halo, they should switch. They'd be stupid to use this ugly and developer-unfriendly engine if they can finally dump it.

There was also a post how 2 years was spent on recreating Halo on Unreal Engine and it didn't work out.

Classic Halo Esports and HCS Grassroots 2020 Discussion Thread

web.archive.org

Ctrl+F Unreal. I remember this was also told by some other sources, but now if you try to Google its full of the recent Sean W rumor. 343i already tried replicating Halo in Unreal Engine and decided to stick to improving Blam Engine. Considering MCC's UI elements are on Unreal Engine, they probably considered a Unreal Engine switch before they even started developing Infinite.

Turns out you can't magically recreate everything inside Unreal Engine, unless what you are doing is built around Unreal Engine.

They'd be stupid to use this ugly and developer-unfriendly engine if they can finally dump it.

Spoiler

Now that all that is said, let's get started! You may have seen on Twitter that we were researching Slipspace and Faber, 343 Industries' tool for Halo Infinite. We wanted to know if the rumor that the tool was difficult was true

Answer: No, not quite. According to our sources, Slipspace & Faber would even be excellent, currently qualified as sometimes much better than other publicly available engines and tools, such as Unity or Unreal Engine. We summarize this for you

For example, Faber offers an incredible experience, if not better, on the following points:
- Automatic organization of projects
- Optimized cutting of 3D levels and assets to support different platforms
- Excellent procedural generation tools

- A terrain editor qualified as "amazing"
- Very good tools for building the world and experience, to manage the placement of elements, AIs or actions pre-defined by the Designers responsible for missions and sections in the campaign.

That said, Faber seems to have its share of problems, for example:
- Crash several times a day
- Very powerful for elaborate uses but may require crossbeam solutions for simple things
- Undoing an action had a 75% chance of crashing the project

- In case of crash loading assets could take hours
- Some at 343 were going to take their lunch break while everything was loading
- Artists could sometimes lose hours of work if they weren't careful about undoing action (lived experience)

That said, these issues were true during the development of Halo Infinite only. Since then, 343 Industries has worked a lot on it. Although some of these issues persist, our sources describe Faber as today "much more stable and faster"

This means that there are now far fewer crashes when producing assets, maps or new experiences, allowing artists to work more efficiently. It's not the tools that are currently holding 343 Industries back from moving fast.

The problem actually comes from the manpower still available to create content on Halo Infinite. Between departures and a Microsoft-wide hiring freeze, 343 has struggled to keep pace with the demands and needs that a Game As A Service game requires.

It is not simply necessary to understand the production of 3D elements, but also the programming required for them, storing the data, monitoring the actions and statistics of the players, requiring engineers in addition to the artists available.

Basically, understand that just because you see a working "DMR" in a leak doesn't mean it would work properly online. Weapon kills need to be tracked, logged, etc. And that requires missing manpower.

The team had to receive help from studios to produce elements, unfortunately, external events prevented this. 343 Industries tries to optimize their resources as best as possible to move forward on the right path, but we will come back to this subject later.

So... Are Slipspace and Faber the hell that rumors have been selling you lately? According to our sources, absolutely not, quite the contrary. Like any tool, problems persist of course. But worries about 343 Industries' pacing lie elsewhere.

 

[CuNi]

They already tried to do that

And they failed. It just didn't work even after they spent 2 years trying to make Halo work in Unreal Engine.

I love how you came to dunk on me after seeing someone agreed with you.

What does that even mean? Faber tools works in Slipspace because its derived from Blam Engine which evolved alongside them.

Spoiler

2 years of dev time wasted on this. Why didn't Bethesda just switch to Unreal Engine, heck why didn't they just use the in house id Tech? As someone who mods Skyrim I can tell you that engine is not something you can replicate in UE games(like how every item can be picked up and the game will always remember where in the entire world you dropped that).
Why did not Flight Simulator use Unreal Engine?
Why does not Forza use Unreal Engine?
Why does not Call of Duty use Unreal Engine?
Why does not Rockstar use Unreal Engine?
Why does not everyone just switch to Unreal?
Respwan uses there own version of Source Engine(something much more closer to what Halo needs then Unreal Engine), and a dev talked about Forge




I don't think people understand what they mean when they say "they have the source code, they can just use their tools inside Unreal". Its like Microsoft decides to fork FreeBSD so that all Windows apps magically work on the new OS, it will take a decade and still may not work. Game Engines are different


I already told you everything you can notice Halo's feel by playing it and you always use this magic phrase.

That source is a random guy posting on a forum. Outside of him talking about it, there is no source out there talking that Infinite was being developed on Unreal Engine.
That doesn't even make sense, as all info 343i gave to the public spoke of them taking the time after H5 to upgrade and further rewrite the old Halo Engine and turn it into what ended up being Slipspace Engine.

 

[oldergamer]

They already tried to do that

And they failed. It just didn't work even after they spent 2 years trying to make Halo work in Unreal Engine.

I love how you came to dunk on me after seeing someone agreed with you.

What does that even mean? Faber tools works in Slipspace because its derived from Blam Engine which evolved alongside them.

Spoiler

2 years of dev time wasted on this. Why didn't Bethesda just switch to Unreal Engine, heck why didn't they just use the in house id Tech? As someone who mods Skyrim I can tell you that engine is not something you can replicate in UE games(like how every item can be picked up and the game will always remember where in the entire world you dropped that).
Why did not Flight Simulator use Unreal Engine?
Why does not Forza use Unreal Engine?
Why does not Call of Duty use Unreal Engine?
Why does not Rockstar use Unreal Engine?
Why does not everyone just switch to Unreal?
Respwan uses there own version of Source Engine(something much more closer to what Halo needs then Unreal Engine), and a dev talked about Forge




I don't think people understand what they mean when they say "they have the source code, they can just use their tools inside Unreal". Its like Microsoft decides to fork FreeBSD so that all Windows apps magically work on the new OS, it will take a decade and still may not work. Game Engines are different


I already told you everything you can notice Halo's feel by playing it and you always use this magic phrase.

Well first do you really think i care if anyone agreed with me? My comment on the code simply means they can customize unreal as they see fit.


Second what you stated wasnt a fact. They could make forge work inside any other engine if they wanted. Im not gonna bother responding to the rest of your post as its just all over the place

 

[Bernkastel]

That source is a random guy posting on a forum. Outside of him talking about it, there is no source out there talking that Infinite was being developed on Unreal Engine.
That doesn't even make sense, as all info 343i gave to the public spoke of them taking the time after H5 to upgrade and further rewrite the old Halo Engine and turn it into what ended up being Slipspace Engine.

The rumor of Halo Infinite originally being developed on Unreal Engine was confirmed later by multiple sources including Jason Schreier himself


No one ever came out to debunk that rumor. This "343i switching to Unreal Engine rumor" has been debunked by multiple people, started by a youtuber with no credibility, got support from no one credble and Jez himself is regretting supporting it. Sadly people will believe the latter but not the former.
Also, why woul not it make any sense? The UI of MCC is in Unreal Engine, so they were already experimenting with Unreal even before the development of Infinite.

That is 100% incorrect.

This is totally incorrect.

Second what you stated wasnt a fact.

What the hell man?

 

[CuNi]

The rumor of Halo Infinite originally being developed on Unreal Engine was confirmed later by multiple sources including Jason Schreier himself


No one ever came out to debunk that rumor. This "343i switching to Unreal Engine rumor" has been debunked by multiple people, started by a youtuber with no credibility, got support from no one credble and Jez himself is regretting supporting it. Sadly people will believe the latter but not the former.
Also, why woul not it make any sense? The UI of MCC is in Unreal Engine, so they were already experimenting with Unreal even before the development of Infinite.



What the hell man?

"considered switching to unreal" is not the same as "was tested in unreal". I don't doubt that many devs even with own proprietary engines consider unreal and its pros and cons, but considering something doesn't mean it doesn't work or fit.

They could very much have considered unreal but chose otherwise as for example it would take longer to port already existing work flows or assets over.

Choosing against unreal neither confirmed it was at any point developed on unreal nor does it confirm that it is impossible tonl recreate the halo feel on it.

For all we know, the deciding factor even could've been epics cut on sales that made 343i chose against unreal engine.

Also, to stress it again, I'm not saying that they are doing the switch now for Infinite. I also don't think that would be feasible as they would need to basically redo the whole engine to fit their current assets etc. I wish they would but realistically it's not happening.

Next halo game, perhaps, infinite, most likely never.

 

[oldergamer]

I'm still going to counter that remaking halo using unreal is 100% possible for 343i, same goes for Forge. When you have an understanding of how halo was built, the code for both engines, and the ability to customize unreal.

There are way too many assumptions made here that it wasn't or isn't possible. Berk, twitter links and online rumors aren't enough to refute that imo.

 

[Timberwolf25]

With all the acquisitions MS has made, surely they now have the in house talent to put together an engine that rivals Unreal.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

With all the acquisitions MS has made, surely they now have the in house talent to put together an engine that rivals Unreal.

 

[Fart Knight]

Truly the ugliest AAA game of all time.

While everyone was up in arms about that pic, I was shocked they actually released this as an official image in order to get people hyped about their game. This was the screenshot that sealed 343 as being completely inept.

They even proudly put their logo on it

 

[Timberwolf25]

I don't understand what you think is so funny. Doom, Wolfenstein, Forza, etc all looking really darn good and are using inhouse engines that MS owns.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

don't understand what you think is so funny. Doom, Wolfenstein, Forza, etc all looking really darn good and are using inhouse engines that MS owns.

Wait?. You were serious? Ok.

 

[Timberwolf25]

Wait?. You were serious? Ok.

Yes. And your only response is a meme.

Are you denying that those games look and play great?

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Yes. And your only response is a meme.

Are you denying that those games look and play great?

A videogame engine goes beyond looks or even gameplay.

Let's wait how Fable comes out. Let's see if those studios make a game outside of their (and internal engine) comfort zone.

Are you aware of the disaster, that was Mass Effect Andromeda?.

 

[kiphalfton]

Good. Because whatever the fuck engine was used for Halo Infinite is the ugliest in the industry.

LMAO.

I literally lol everytime I see this guy, Halo deserves better

I don't even understand why they would use a proprietary engine. Isn't that expensive as all hell?

I think at this point they should do as Square Enix did with Final Fantasy XV, and just be done with this shit game and move onto the next sequential title in the series. May mean moving from one dumpster fire to the next, but starting with a clean slate is sometimes the only option.

 

[Timberwolf25]

A videogame engine goes beyond looks or even gameplay.

Let's wait how Fable comes out. Let's see if those studios make a game outside of their (and internal engine) comfort zone.

Are you aware of the disaster, that was Mass Effect Andromeda?.

You think Andromeda's failure was due to the engine it used?

And my point was they have people that have built engines that perform really well. Pooling the talent together from the new Forza, ID tech, Slipspace, etc can result in something pretty outstanding.

 

[kiphalfton]

You think Andromeda's failure was due to the engine it used?

And my point was they have people that have built engines that perform really well. Pooling the talent together from the new Forza, ID tech, Slipspace, etc can result in something pretty outstanding.

Why take time and resources away from a project to create an engine, when there are other engines that are more than capable. It costs them one way or another, but it can cost them big if they develop it and then drop it. That's what happened with Kingdom Hearts III, and that game had a really rough development. Now it's happening to Halo potentially.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

You think Andromeda's failure was due to the engine it used?

Yazzz. (A big chunk). There was a hole report from your friend Jason. Presented in concise, informative and entertaining way by gvmers:

And my point was they have people that have built engines that perform really well. Pooling the talent together from the new Forza, ID tech, Slipspace, etc can result in something pretty outstanding.

And that is what I am laughing. Look, I get what your are saying. (I am not laughing at you btw). But at this perception of because a company has the resources (Financial, Technological and Techinical -peope-). Is somehow surely able to (in this case) make something that rivals Unreal.

Specially Xbox that has shown incompetency in videogame production/management. And even MS proper, with Windows OS.

 

[gundalf]

Good. Because whatever the fuck engine was used for Halo Infinite is the ugliest in the industry.

LMAO.

I literally lol everytime I see this guy, Halo deserves better

Err is this in-game? Because I can tell with confidence that the model went through an automatic polygon reducer instead of being hand modeled to low-poly. Gosh, those teeth have more poly's than the armor.

 

[Daneel Elijah]

They should. But they sadly won't.

 

[Bernkastel]

"considered switching to unreal" is not the same as "was tested in unreal". I don't doubt that many devs even with own proprietary engines consider unreal and its pros and cons, but considering something doesn't mean it doesn't work or fit.

They could very much have considered unreal but chose otherwise as for example it would take longer to port already existing work flows or assets over.

Choosing against unreal neither confirmed it was at any point developed on unreal nor does it confirm that it is impossible tonl recreate the halo feel on it.

For all we know, the deciding factor even could've been epics cut on sales that made 343i chose against unreal engine.

Also, to stress it again, I'm not saying that they are doing the switch now for Infinite. I also don't think that would be feasible as they would need to basically redo the whole engine to fit their current assets etc. I wish they would but realistically it's not happening.

Jason is not the only one who supported this theory. The guy who originally leaked this is pretty reliable buddy, he was thee first one who leaked this story and no one ever debunked him. I remember it was known fact around 2020-21 that 343i tried building Halo Infinite with Unreal Engine initially, they were just not "'considering it". How many more times do I have to dig for the same shit from different sources? Slipspace Engine only came to the picture in 2017-2018 when they rebooted it.
That said it is still possible that Tatanka(Certain Affinity's game mode) was always in Unreal Engine, since it is very different from traditional Halo multiplayer. Kinda like the UI of But Halo as a whole? Never.

I don't even understand why they would use a proprietary engine. Isn't that expensive as all hell?

Because people who buy Halo would rather have it play and feel like a Halo game.

I think at this point they should do as Square Enix did with Final Fantasy XV, and just be done with this shit game and move onto the next sequential title in the series.
May mean moving from one garbage fire to the next, but starting a clean slate is sometimes the only option.

Not really the same thing. Final Fantasy XVI was made by an entirely a different team and is set in the world of XIV. Halo Infinite's biggest issue is its lack of content and to fix that you would rather make more content for your game then to start everything and throw everything away.

There are way too many assumptions made here that it wasn't or isn't possible. Berk, twitter links and online rumors aren't enough to refute that imo.

You aren't giving any reasons why they are all wrong either.

I'm still going to counter that remaking halo using unreal is 100% possible for 343i, same goes for Forge. When you have an understanding of how halo was built, the code for both engines, and the ability to customize unreal.

Forge is mostly the internal tools 343i uses in Slipspace Engine to make maps. Switching to Unreal would mean giving it all up. If they are gonna spend years(mind you this will take forever) completely rewriting Unreal for Halo with Blam/Slipspace code, why even use Unreal? Better import codebase from id Tech or IW engine to Slipspace. Same reason Bethesda does not just use id Tech

idTech 6 Supports "Relatively" Open Worlds & Destructible Environments

idTech 6 is able to support relatively open worlds and even destructible environments, according to id Software's Tiago Sousa.

wccftech.com

 

[Bernkastel]

Let's wait how Fable comes out. Let's see if those studios make a game outside of their (and internal engine) comfort zone.

Rockstar's RAGE was based of an engine for racing games.

They own id Tech, and IW, which itself was derived from id Tech. id Tech used to be a big competitor to Unreal Engine, until Zenimax bought id Software made it exclusive to their own studios.

 

[01011001]

With all the acquisitions MS has made, surely they now have the in house talent to put together an engine that rivals Unreal.

they have iD Tech, they don't need to make another one when they already have the best one in house