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[Lime]

Kinda curious if you've ever seen First Blood. It's not really a typical action movie and nothing like the other Rambo movies.

See my post earlier in the thread. It's obviously referring to Rambo 2 and beyond where it got constructed as hyper masculine patriotism

While true for some of those, not all those movies aren't the same in their portrayal of men:

First Blood is about a returning soldier being shunned by society and has a PTSD reaction to his treatment. He doesn't want to hurt anyone and is only trying to survive in a world that is very different from the one he left. Rambo is the most human character in the entire thing and it's only his friend and commander who is able to "take him out", not with violence but with a heart to heart talk.

Rocky is about an amature boxer being given the chance at greatness and being an underdog, acknowledged for not being smart, but being caring and loyal. He has compassion, when he's told to get money near the start of the film, he lets the guy go and then it chastised for it.... but even that guy acknowledges that he's a good guy. He doesn't fight anyone unless it's in the ring.

In both First Blood and Rocky, the violence is either in competition or as self-defence.

The rest, aye, I suppose.

Against read my earlier post.

 

[Lime]

Um, it isn't? I swear "journalists" are stuck 20 years in the past and are just looking for things to whine about. There are plenty of games targeted at female audiences, it just so happens that the games targeting male audiences seem to sell more (both to males and females) and get more attention.

Well yeah if you include the 95% of videogames that aren't you might get to that conclusion.

This was more true 5 years ago, nowadays, we have more diversity in charters and plotlines.

I love for some of to come up with examples of all of this.

 

[Fbh]

Because videogames are an interactive medium and for most people fighting a lot of enemies with a variety of weapons and moves is more fun than playing as Mike crying at home because of his post traumatic stress.

 

[SnakeXs]

Is TFATF not record breaking huge in the world the writer lives?

 

[LordJim]

Haha. Perhaps he refers to Seagal's environmental speech at the end of On Deadly Ground.

Isn't that the movie where he pushes someone to a helicopter propeller?

 

[Magic Mushroom]

Isn't that the movie where he pushes someone to a helicopter propeller?

It is indeed.

 

[PetulantChild]

I love for some of to come up with examples of all of this.

Life is Strange
Tomb Raider 2013
Remember Me
Tons of female characters/the option to be one in every shooter/RPG that comes out these days
Horizon:Zero Dawn
Every other Indie Game that comes out
Assassins Creed Syndicate

 

[Led_Zeppelin]

So First Blood didn't talk about PTSD and was just "another" Rambo movie? ooook. Also the 80's rules, I still watch a lot of the old 80's "machismo" movies with friends and barely care about current movie franchise or whatever.

 

[SeanTSC]

Going by this current generation of games, I don't think I can agree with this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_4_games_released_on_disc

And that's Retail Disc only. If you go into Digital included it's not even remotely true: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_download-only_PlayStation_4_games

 

[redcrayon]

He did some horrible things to those guys in Under Siege.

He also cooked

 

[kadotsu]

I love for some of to come up with examples of all of this.

80 Days
FFXV
Gravity Rush
Undertale
Tearaway
Dreams
LittleBigPlanet
Animal Crossing
Style Savvy
Until Dawn
Child of Eden
Framed
Ace Attorney 5
Any Telltale game past TWD

 

[A-V-B]

He also cooked

 

[Lime]

Life is Strange
Tomb Raider 2013
Remember Me
Tons of female characters/the option to be one in every shooter/RPG that comes out these days
Horizon:Zero Dawn
Every other Indie Game that comes out
Assassins Creed Syndicate

80 Days
FFXV
Gravity Rush
Undertale
Tearaway
Dreams
LittleBigPlanet
Animal Crossing
Style Savvy
Until Dawn
Child of Eden
Framed
Ace Attorney 5
Any Telltale game past TWD

I thought that this conversation was about masculinity and male characters and how one-dimensional and arguably toxic they are in video games. I was thinking of examples where masculine characters aren't conforming to the 80's action hero cliché. Genuinely curious

TWD and Ace Attorney might serve as examples of that, I think.

 

[Magic Mushroom]

80 Days
FFXV
Gravity Rush
Undertale
Tearaway
Dreams
LittleBigPlanet
Animal Crossing
Style Savvy
Until Dawn
Child of Eden
Framed
Ace Attorney 5
Any Telltale game past TWD

There are so many games that aren't stuck in the era of Rambo-esque masculinity. Most of them aren't actually. Look at Her Story, Papers Please or SOMA, The Talos Principle or The Swapper, Spec Ops the Line or Kentucy Route Zero. I think Joel in The Last of Us isn't a Rambo-esque one dimensional killing machine either.

 

[kadotsu]

I thought that this conversation was about masculinity and male characters and how one-dimensional and arguably toxic they are in video games. I was thinking of examples where masculine characters aren't conforming to the 80's action hero cliché

Well:

Delsin Rowe - inFamous Second Son
Jeff Riggs - SpecOps The line
Nier - Nier

 

[SeanTSC]

Well:

Delsin Rowe - inFamous Second Son
Jeff Riggs - SpecOps The line
Nier - Nier

Sorey - Tales of Zestiria.

 

[Kinyou]

But at their core, many popular videogames still share much in common with '80s Hollywood masculinity. The general goal of killing or otherwise defeating one's opponents to win is still widely adhered to

How exactly has this changed in movies? When you watch an action movie you can be pretty certain the conflict will be solved by violence.

I believe that has more to do with the action genre itself.

 

[PetulantChild]

I thought that this conversation was about masculinity and male characters and how one-dimensional and arguably toxic they are in video games. I was thinking of examples where masculine characters aren't conforming to the 80's action hero cliché

The article even mentions some for you. Solid Snake is by no mean a complete cliché, Joel from Last of Us, Alan Wake, Team Silent developed SH characters, Francis York Morgan, etc. Also the idea that somehow fictional characters who are cartoonishly manly are somehow dangerous or "toxic" is just plain silly and childish.

 

[Rygar 8 Bit]

because action is fun?

 

[Magic Mushroom]

Still can't get over the fact that the author mentioned Steven Seagal as a counterpoint to the Sly and Arnie 80s action hero.

 

[plasmawave]

I wonder where GAF's favorite mass murderer Nathan Drake fit into all this.

 

[Majima Everywhere System]

I feel like this isn't true, even in the AAA space. We have the paternal protagonist in the Last of US, the PTSD in Spec Ops and much more protagonists that get powers against their will (inFamous, Assassin's Creed).

Also John Rambo might not be the best example if you complain about action movies not dealing with PTSD.

Rambo cried, the author here needs to go watch a movie.

Commando and Predator were what she wanted.

 

[Bizazedo]

Rambo cried, the author here needs to go watch a movie.

Commando and Predator were what she wanted.

I don't want to live in a world where liking Predator is wrong. It's blowing my mind right now.

 

[Auto-Reply]

Because movies are not completely interchangable with games and don't always work the same way. You wanted to make a big budget action movie in the 80's? You better get a big name on the list because that's why people are going to the movie theatres for, for Schwarzenegger and Stallone.

You make a third person shooter videogame, that doesn't really matter because you play the game and not watch it (mostly)

 

[More Fun To Compute]

It's a shame that stealth games are boring.

 

[Henkka]

I love for some of to come up with examples of all of this.

What would be your example of a toxic male character in a game released this year?

 

[Metfanant]

Who cares? I don't even see a problem here. Developers are going to make what sells...Its nobody's place to decide what right, or wrong (on either side of this debate)...

As long as those types of games continue to be best sellers, they will (and should) continue to be made

 

[ViewtifulJC]

The thread title poses a question the article doesn't. The article just points out influences of certain popular American action movies on certain popular video games.

Which, ya know, yeah, we know Contra takes inspiration from Predator/Rambo, and Halo has some of Aliens DNA in it. That was pretty obvious to the people with eyes and ears.

 

[Mugaaz]

It doesn't serve the gameplay at all to have a chracter question why you're killing the enemies, or to portray the enemies as something other than evil when that gameplay is based on killing enemies. You want Duke Nukem type characters for that sort of game, and that sort of game is most games, because those straight-forward games are popular. There is certainly room for other stuff, but when you're making a game about killing evil people.....why would you want anything but a bad ass?

 

[Dennis]

It's a shame that stealth games are boring.

 

[Lionheart1337]

What would be your example of a toxic male character in a game released this year?

Geralt was pretty bad. That whole game was actually.

 

[Paracelsus]

Because unlike other forms of fanservice which are okay to some but problematic to others, it's a non-issue. As a matter of fact, if we want to go there, even in an environment definitely not crowded with a macho audience like shounen, the first major common complaint you hear from otaku about a male character would be "man, what a damn sissy, I hate how much of a f-in [insert discriminatory slur here] he is".

 

[DocSeuss]

Article's stretching to find fault with a way of life the it finds threatening because it's not capable of accepting a world where different people believe in different ways.

This kind of intolerance deserves to be shunned.

 

[Parapraxis]

Geralt was pretty bad. That whole game was actually.

Really he was toxic?
Wow, this is amazing to me that some people think this. He was complex, and troubled, charming, cunning, honest, and absolutely caring like a father to Ciri.

Geralt is one of the most "real" characters I've ever seen in a game.

 

[DocSeuss]

Really he was toxic?
Wow, this is amazing to me that some people think this. He was complex, and troubled, charming, cunning, honest, and absolutely caring like a father to Ciri.

Geralt is one of the most "real" characters I've ever seen in a game.

Sure, one of the best characters this year was toxic because he was comfortable in his masculinity. If you're comfortable in your masculinity, you're toxic, because it makes people feel unsafe.

Obviously.

 

[RedSwirl]

Because the western mainstream console market is still mostly dominated by action games (in terms of the most successful games). The mechanics of action games place certain constraints on the subject matter. If you look literally anywhere else in the video game industry, you'll find that this idea of being stuck in 80's Schwartzeneggerism isn't true.

 

[CambriaRising]

Geralt was pretty bad. That whole game was actually.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Geralt a toxic character? I'm questioning whether you've even played any of the games.

 

[n051de]

Meh.. Games without this stereotype are all over the place. Hell Final Fantasy only has one important character fitting this type(Jecht).

 

[More_Badass]

The merit of the article's points is mostly sound enough, but as an aside does this author even have a clue what First Blood was about?

When people say Rambo in regards to male heroes, they're not usually thinking of First Blood-style Rambo

 

[Wowfunhappy]

Well AAA games don't make up a significant amount of games made today. Of games I can think of in the last 2 years I just got COD. Feel free to list games.

Perhaps not in the sheer quantity of games, but I'm sure that if you multiplied each game by number of sales, or dollars spent on development, most of the games at the top of the list would feature hyper-masculinity as a theme.

The biggest franchises--Call of Duty, GTA, Destiny, etc--all do this.

 

[Parapraxis]

Perhaps not in the sheer quantity of games, but I'm sure that if you multiplied each game by number of sales, or dollars spent on development, most of the games at the top of the list would feature hyper-masculinity as a theme.

The biggest franchises--Call of Duty, GTA, Destiny, etc--all do this.

GTA aside, how would you propose to make a realistic/semi-realistic first person shooter that isn't (if you ignore the fact that there's female player options and characters in both) "masculine"?

I don't think that's the "theme" at all.

EDIT: Destiny and Call of Duty Black Ops 3 can be played as female, campaign and multiplayer.

 

[RedSwirl]

Actually went and read the article now, and whoa, has the author just never seen First Blood? I would even venture to say that Die Hard 1 isn't about superhero-esque masculinity. To me it's more about a slightly above-average cop getting in way over his head and somehow coming out of it alive despite the odds. Die Hard doesn't even approach egregious superheroics until the fourth movie.

 

[More_Badass]

GTA aside, how would you propose to make a realistic/semi-realistic first person shooter that isn't (if you ignore the fact that there's female player options and characters in both) "masculine"?

You could always go the gritty crime thriller route. Rather than hundreds of enemies and millions of bullets, focus more on tense scenarios with little ammo and unfavorable odds. Have the protagonist on the back foot rather than always having the advantage. Give the game an atmosphere of tension and desperate action rather than overwhelming spectacle

And GTA isn't gritty crime thriller. I'm talking more No Country for Old Men, Collateral, etc.

 

[RedSwirl]

You could always go the gritty crime thriller route. Rather than hundreds of enemies and millions of bullets, focus more on tense scenarios with little ammo and unfavorable odds. Have the protagonist on the back foot rather than always having the advantage. Give the game an atmosphere of tension and desperate action rather than overwhelming spectacle

What you're describing would basically be to heavily ramp down the action and turn it into more of an adventure game that's about solving problems intelligently. 1) That's not really the point of GTA -- the point of GTA is to provide players with a sandbox they can wreck at will. The story can either be in service to that or in conflict with it. 2) That kind of adventure game pretty much already exists, it's just not the kind of game that will make a billion dollars when released on a console to western audiences.

 

[More_Badass]

What you're describing would basically be to heavily ramp down the action and turn it into more of an adventure game that's about solving problems intelligently. 1) That's not really the point of GTA -- the point of GTA is to provide players with a sandbox they can wreck at will. The story can either be in service to that or in conflict with it. 2) That kind of adventure game pretty much already exists, it's just not the kind of game that will make a billion dollars when released on a console to western audiences.

I still haven't seen a game that captures the neo-noir/crime thriller genre, that kind of desperate tense No Country for Old Men-esque action. We haven't had a game like that, and it would definitely not be in the adventure game mold

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Geralt a toxic character? I'm questioning whether you've even played any of the games.

Geralt can be very toxic if you don't handle your potion limits well.

 

[Cultural Leet]

Rambo cried at the end of First Blood. Let us not forget the sensitive side of badasses.

 

[Steel]

I really feel like half of the AAA games released today moved on from Rambo to the sarcastic Everyman.

 

[EdwardTeach]

How can they compare rambo with dances with wolves? Why not compare it with something like demolition man?

 

[Paracelsus]

Rambo cried at the end of First Blood. Let us not forget the sensitive side of badasses.

John Spartan was taught how to knit, but it was part of the dystopia so.