It's an utterly bizarre debate. They are both among the highest rated, most well received comic book films of the modern era. To suggest that one is clearly better than the other by any objective metric is kind of silly. Any difference in qualitative score is marginal at best between the two and it obviously comes down to nothing but personal preference as to which is "better."
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Matt Reeves on The Batman: Its a standalone, this isnt part of the DCEU"
- Thread starter Lights and Waves
- Start date
It's an utterly bizarre debate. They are both among the highest rated, most well received comic book films of the modern era. To suggest that one is clearly better than the other by any objective metric is kind of silly. Any difference in qualitative score is marginal at best between the two and it obviously comes down to nothing but personal preference as to which is "better."
QuantumZebra
Member
I'd argue he is an anti-hero/antagonist, not a villain. But yea I have no clue how we ended up in this debate.
Definitely agree
hydragonwarrior
Member
I can't wait for the JLU movie where they fight multiple universe Batmans. THis will be awesome. I want Keaton and Christian Bale in it
Yup.
If there was like a 30-point difference between the two movies, then yes, most people would probably cite that as evidence that one film is better than the other. A 3-point difference is completely irrelevant.
What's with treating Rotten Tomatoes like gospel? Most people don't post their opinions on websites, so at the end of day, if a movie has a fresh rating based on 200 "critics" (AKA 200 random people that call themselves professionals at watching movies lol, wtf), it's just 200 people in a world of billions. Most people don't even know what RT is
Let us worship the opinions of others because we need to be told what to think before we go into a movie ourselves
Let us worship the opinions of others because we need to be told what to think before we go into a movie ourselves
broncobuster
Banned
You're being far too sensible.
Now let me tell you about how Street Kings is 0.3 and 4% better than The Black Dahlia.
this
shira
Member
QuantumZebra
Member
It is - but when someone acts like WS is objectively better than WW, I and anyone else would pull reviews.
He pulled audience scores (which are effectively useless) and they were off by .1.
IMDB (also fan-scored) is higher by .1 and RT (obviously critic aggregate) is higher by 3%. So even using his example he is wrong by 3%, even if you include unreliable audience scores.
And yes this entire debate is stupid and got kicked off because LegendOfDragoon wanted to shit on WW by arguing WS is way better somehow.
The third act of WW was the best part. The snow scene all the way up to the Ares fight and the end was god-tier. Putting it on par with "MARTHA!!@1" is idiotic.
See how this works?
The Winter Soldier wasn't, come on. It was the usual lame as hell, video game mission.
...great? It was when the movie came together. At least it was better than the one for Winter Solider.
Ninja Scooter
Member
And "let's fight over the macguffin on an aircraft carrier!" wasn't?
Check again, the 7.5 and 7.6 (WS) numbers are critic averages.
His smile when he does the deed makes me uncomfortable.
Well it did come from the DCEU lol
That said, various comic book movies have a weak 3rd act. Honestly, the only standout for me was WW's No Man's Land scene. I loved that. Everything was just alright, with the 3rd act being rather disappointing.
Night Angel
Member
I'm super concerned because the DCEU has certainly brought us films of the highest quality.
But really, DC went about this entirely the wrong way. Marvel created good movies first and made us like their characters. Only then did they make an ensemble film. I guess DC couldn't be bothered to do the first bit, so we're getting an ensemble movie where we only care about 1-3 characters (so far I'm only in for Bats and WW).
Let it die. Make good movies. If it makes sense, make a Justice League we actually give a shit about. Keep that hack Snyder out of it.
I'm looking forward to DC movies with a contained plot that don't get distracted by establishing a universe at the expense of good pacing and character motivation.
But really, DC went about this entirely the wrong way. Marvel created good movies first and made us like their characters. Only then did they make an ensemble film. I guess DC couldn't be bothered to do the first bit, so we're getting an ensemble movie where we only care about 1-3 characters (so far I'm only in for Bats and WW).
Let it die. Make good movies. If it makes sense, make a Justice League we actually give a shit about. Keep that hack Snyder out of it.
I'm looking forward to DC movies with a contained plot that don't get distracted by establishing a universe at the expense of good pacing and character motivation.
Discotheque
Banned
yeah he should have been sober and contemplative when behind the scenes filming a superman film as he gave direction on killing a character named general zod.
he owed that respect.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
...
Good.
If it's anything like Batman: The Animated Series in characterisation and atmosphere, I'll be the happiest Batman fan.
Good.
If it's anything like Batman: The Animated Series in characterisation and atmosphere, I'll be the happiest Batman fan.
QuantumZebra
Member
Is that where the end took place?
Ever since people started having meltdowns over WW being better than WS, I've been trying to piece together the end of WS in my mind. Totally forgettable, lol.
I don't know if you're purposely being obtuse, but come on. The whole point is that he looks excited about Superman killing Zod, which is uncharacteristic as hell for Supes, and you could see Snyder's boyish excitement at it come through in the film's brazen disregard for Supes own persona and character.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
How did this thread turn into a Wonder Woman thread when the story is about The Batman being separate from the DCEU? lol..
Inferno313
Banned
This is revisionist order of the highest degree. Shit was planned from the outset. The post-credit scene from the original Iron Man says "Hey, Avengers is on the way." Not to mention the 15 minute commercial for The Avengers that's just wedged in the middle of Iron Man 2.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
That would require Paul Dini and he doesn't care for Hollywood. So that's not happening.
Inferno313
Banned
Because nerds gotta go to bat for their favorite mega-corporation of choice.
QuantumZebra
Member
People were discussing how to reboot the DCEU or continue it by cutting out BvS and MoS, but keep WW. That somehow mutated into people trying to shit on WW (which is beyond moronic).
This.
P.S. I love both Marvel and DCEU but the last Marvel film that was on par with TDK or WW was Spider-Man 2. The best Marvel films recently didn't even come from Disney... (Logan and Deadpool).
sorry if this sends some people over the edge
Discotheque
Banned
I kinda want it like a mix between the mob episodes of Batman TAS and Year One. but then at that point I think it would be retreading Nolan going that route (not that there's anything wrong with looking at one of the GOAT comic book movies for inspiration)
I think he's been mentioning he wants it to be more detective-oriented than before though, it would be awesome if we got a bit of a slow-burn crime movie (with some fire action scenes of course) as somebody like The Court of Owls or Penguin was pulling the strings.
Night Angel
Member
Laying the groundwork for an ensemble film is not the same thing as skipping straight to it, is it?
Minor nods in a movie are fine. Major distractions from the narrative at hand, though... I'm not a fan. A Stinger scene is a little different from what DC has done.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
I'm coming in here looking to see if there's been any updates lol..this thread might as well get renamed. Add a Thor 2 poll..😂
QuantumZebra
Member
Yea jumping to BvS from MoS was an *awfullll* idea.
Should've had origin films for the big 3 (WW, Bats, Supes) and then JL and THEN BvS.
Thor 2 was >>>>>> Iron Man 2
*ducks*
they both sucked
All that's missing is a round of high fives and "Yea bro!!"
broncobuster
Banned
https://youtu.be/eqm1qFBoV7w?t=203
The disrespect is palpable. Michael Shannon makes a chiropractor joke. He should be fined.
Inferno313
Banned
I mean. They didn't really skip to it. You can argue they did a poorer job of laying the ground work, sure. (And you'd be right) They didn't really skip to it though. Avengers was the 6th MCU film, this is the 5th DCEU film.
The idea that you NEED origin films for every single character in an ensemble piece is dumb to begin with. The original X-Men did just fine without origin stories. Guardians of the Galaxy did fine without origin stories. Every ensemble film ever did just fine without origin stories.
Discotheque
Banned
disgusting. that should have been filmed on a closed set that day with just the necessary crew members.
why are they laughing about something so serious here. kind of makes me look at these people in a new light.
QuantumZebra
Member
True. Guardians was pulled off exceptionally well. Buuut also we're dealing with arguably the 3 most popular heroes of all time (Spider-Man is in that mix too), so it makes sense to give them each origins.
I think DC screwed the pooch by skipping to Suicide Squad and BvS. I'd have gone:
The Batman > Man of Steel > Wonder Woman > Justice League Pt.1 > BvS > Suicide Squad > JL Pt. 2 (Have The Batman set-up Joker/Harley/Man of Steel) ... but who knows what their plans are (if they even have any).
ForsakenLotus
Member
Look, Matt is a really good director and I love Elseworlds tales and standalone stories, but now is a really bad time for DC to push out any movie (not counting animation) that isn't directly tied to the DCEU.
Dash_Riprock
Member
I would say now is the perfect time, especially if JL really is the mess all accounts are portraying it as.
George Oscar Bluth II
Banned
QuantumZebra
Member
As long as they don't attempt a reboot after it. WW was too good not to bank on, and they've already began WW2 treatments.
Unless DC is pulling out all the stops and recreating The New 52 debacle.
If this means I can get Batman Beyond with Keaton as old Bruce I say bring Elseworlds on ASAP.
Discotheque
Banned
whew. gonna pull that up again and read it this week. Jock's art is so dope.
Night Angel
Member
The number of films isn't important to me. You literally have half of the cast introduced for the first time in JL. The only characters to get meaningful movies are Supes, Bats (sort of), and WW (who was introduced in a movie about the first two). You may not need an origin film, but it certainly helps to introduce and flesh out the characters, their methods, and their motivations. I think JL is going to struggle with getting audiences to connect with the entire cast.
GOTG (and to a lesser extent SS) are a bit different from the Avengers or JL in that the individual characters in the former aren't all known for their escapades outside of their groups. They're usually a package deal.
True true. It does look like they are setting up for an infinite crisis style reboot. Which is so meta is HAS to be unintentional
TheGreatDirector
Banned
This could honestly work in its favor. Isolating Batman's side of the universe can allow it to grow naturally without hindering other DC properties.
Inferno313
Banned
I think that's possible. I also think that IF that's how things play out, that'll be a problem with the execution of Justice League itself, more than anything. There's 6 characters. That's not that many. There are countless films that manage to make you care about 6 characters.
ElBoxyBrown
Banned
I don't think Flashpoint is gonna be the movie some of you think it is.
unpopularblargh
Member
This is where I am it. Don't force it.
IndoAssassin
Banned
If Ant Man or Guardians or most if the MCU movies didn't take place in a connected universe, I wouldn't have watched most of them.
Good luck getting me to watch Shazam if it's not connected.
But it's Batman so I will watch this regardless.
Good luck getting me to watch Shazam if it's not connected.
But it's Batman so I will watch this regardless.
Inferno313
Banned
It is.
Connected universes help some properties as you said and doesn't matter to others
We have decades of data showing folks will watch Batman, Superman or Spider-man without the need of something "larger" backing them.
Discotheque
Banned
people are thinking its gonna be used to reset the universe but I think it will be more about Flash dealing with having to accept the loss of his mother and that he can't change fate or something like that.
i don't really see them using it merely as an excuse to change shit around.