neurosisxeno
Member
He has lower disapproval and higher approval. He's also terrible at what he does, so saying Pelosi is on par for Paul Ryan isn't exactly a good thing.
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NYT: Democrats: Our Brand Is Worse Than Trump
- Thread starter Saucycarpdog
- Start date
He has lower disapproval and higher approval. He's also terrible at what he does, so saying Pelosi is on par for Paul Ryan isn't exactly a good thing.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
You are all having a very difficult time understanding that Republican attack ads will always target their opponents, that much is clear. The difference seems to be that the one's targeting Pelosi are effective on those marginal few percentages of voters that determine who wins and loses.
Is it really that difficult to see? That some people are just naturally more effective targets than others?
Autodidact
Banned
The point is that the public always hates Congress and Congressional leadership even though they paradoxically like their own representative. Approval ratings don't mean as much as you think, in this instance.
Isaac Otherworld
Member
Even the name "Democrats" has been completely poisoned. Frank Lunz did focus testing and found that people are less likely to support Democratic candidates and the Democratic party if you call them "democrats" because it sounds like rat. After that you almost never heard a republican not call their opposition democrats.
It sounds silly but it does work and that's the kind of hyper focused messaging and propaganda we're dealing with.
The entire brand of the party is poisoned and needs to be changed. More disliked than Trump.
It sounds silly but it does work and that's the kind of hyper focused messaging and propaganda we're dealing with.
The entire brand of the party is poisoned and needs to be changed. More disliked than Trump.
Because we saw with Clinton '92->'00 and Obama '08->'16 that it doesn't matter who sits the throne, the GOP will attempt to tar and feather them all the same.
Fair enough!
But in this case Dems are like "Fire her? And risk everything we have going right now?", I just don't get it.
hammysaurusrex
Member
I find it amusing that people are simultaneously arguing how frustrated they are with the center faction of the Democratic party being too far to the right, while also arguing that we need to use attack ads published by the right as a barometer for how we judge our own party.
It's kind of like how Clinton was secretly a Republican... despite 30 years of Republican attack ads against her for being liberal.
It's kind of like how Clinton was secretly a Republican... despite 30 years of Republican attack ads against her for being liberal.
So just throw our hands up and try nothing different?
We got basically everything we wanted in the CR negotiations w/ Ryan.
Pelosi is not the party figurehead and is at the point where she'll be stepping down voluntarily anyway.
And ads will still be run using her regardless of if she actually holds the chair or not.
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
Yes, but if the candidate is loved by their constituents it doesn't matter. They said the most vile shit about Obama yet he had high approval ratings and trounced his opponents.
I don't know why you neoliberals keep putting this argument forward.
"They'll smear them too!"
No fucking shit captain obvious. Strong candidates and leaders are barely effected by it though.
poppedcollar69
Member
Can you imagine if the Democratic party tried to literally rebrand itself? That would be exiting and terrifying.
But then I guess if it flops hard, they can go back to being democrat classic
excelsiorlef
Member
It's the by product of right wing media proliferation and the not insignificant percentage of the left who has absorbed a lot of the talking points of said righ wing media.
Like there are many on the left who hate the Democratic party was much as any rabid republican.
It's super useful.
Because their systems have more than 2 parties. If I put everyone together and told them they have to vote in line or nobody gets what they want, they'd vote in line with some really stupid shit and because it's now "us vs them" it's a fight over identity so people will just throw out objectivity for ritual.
Congressional leaders are never beloved. Congress's approval ratings are always in the toilet.
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
Yes, they've just been duped by the right! It certainly isn't that we keep running wet blankets with Republican ideas from the sixties.
Okay, so say Pelosi goes strictly under the basis of optics, some random Democrat replaces her as minority leader. What do you do when the GOP machine ramps up and starts trashing her replacement, what's the plan? Replace that one too? If you want to replace Pelosi, doing so strictly because the GOP is very astute at trashing her name is short sighted to me when at her actual job she is fine.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
I don't think it's the attack ads at all. I personally can't watch a single Pelosi interview without cringing, she is dreadful at messaging and makes Paul Ryan look charismatic by comparison. She's also had some famously awful gaffes over the years that don't help her cause.
excelsiorlef
Member
I mean you literally just argued the Dems are basically republicans sooo...
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
Lol stop being intellectually dishonest. Yes congress as a whole polls poorly, but people love individuals. You think the right dislikes Ryan as much as the left dislikes Pelosi?
Where?
Please, enlighten us with the Republican ideas from the sixties you're referring to?
No, because the far right captured the GOP, while the Dems haven't fallen victim to their extreme wing.
Congressional leadership is a poison pill for the future ambitions of anyone who takes the job. It is your electoral tomb.
VendettaRed07
Member
Basically.
We don't have to throw her overboard but its crazy if they are not planning a long term successor right now.
The fact that there is no obvious successor now will only get worse as time goes on before likely a situation arises that someone not prepared is thrust upon a high pressure situation they aren't prepared for.
i.e., Paul Ryan right now
Autodidact
Banned
Yes, my grandpappy still waxes nostalgiac about that day on the Senate floor when Margaret Chase Smith declared, "The abuse of our nation's black youth by law enforcement must cease!" and Barry Goldwater gave an impassioned speech about gay rights. Yes, today's Democrats really need to disregard those Republican ideas from the '60s.
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
"The right likes their guy because he appeals to their base dummy."
Yeah, that's my point.
When both parties are polled of course. How does Ryan perform with Republicans?
The Dem's base are not leftists.
The extreme GOP wing is far, far larger than the extreme left wing.
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
They guided their constituents in that direction and they followed. They solidified their hold on the base by doing so. Stay in the center and stay losing.
TestOfTide
Banned
Yes, the Republican Party's base is mostly far-right deplorables at this point.
But the Democratic Party's base is NOT the far-left. If anything, the Democratic Party's base is:
- Single Women
- Minorities
- Younger Voters
Wrong. The GOP establishment was trying to MODERATE it's base with candidates like Jeb Bush, John McCain, and Mitt Romney, then Trump came along and energized the far right into completely taking over the party.
True. Democrats need to move further left to even pass centrist policy because whether or not the love universal income or whatever the issue de jour is what's actually going to define the debate is the endgame and the actual result is going to fall somewhere in the middle. If you are only going to go for small gains, you're going to get half of what you wanted and Republicans are going to redefine it as between where you got and 0 next time they get power.
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
Economic ones.
In fact, we've lost the economic debate because Dems are afraid to buck unbridled capitalism and the Repubs completely control the narrative. How many people have you heard say they were "socially liberal and economically conservative"?
The Dems are the only party fighting for equality and protection for minorities and its vital they do so. It is also vital that they focus on other things as well.
Platinumstorm
Member
I don't get why people think replacing Pelosi would solve anything. They would just attack whoever is next, and find some weird trait to go after. It's not like Democrats don't do it too.
Pelosi: Blinking
McConnel: Turtle
As soon as either one of them are gone both groups will just target someone else.
Pelosi: Blinking
McConnel: Turtle
As soon as either one of them are gone both groups will just target someone else.
CraigerGamer
Member
I think Democrats are doing themselves a disservice by taking the race in Georgia as some sort of litmus test. Huge gains were made in a very conservative part of the country. the race never should have been close. That it was competitive says a lot about messaging and the mood of the country.
First, the brand is the brand. Unless Democrats relent on issues such as gun control, sexual freedom and abortion, a large segment of the population will reject the party on-site. In the mind of many republicans, its not about right vs wrong, its about good vs evil and you ain't changing their mind.
Second, what the Georgia race says to me is that Republicans are going have to work really, really hard in 2018. Its easy to fundraise for a single race over a short period of time. But, having 50 competitive races added to the other 50 that are usually competitive every cycle, eventually this is where you will see the breakdown occur. There is only so much money, so much TV ad time, and so many high quality political operatives to go around. You saw this in last Republican take over when most of the Blue Dogs lost their seats. It was just too much for an established party to control.
IMO, the key will be to make so many of the races competitive that republicans will have to start choosing who their priorities are. One good poll in the wrong direction and you will see time and energy shift away from races like we saw in Georgia to help those that are more "winnable."
Anyway, to all my Dem friends here on GAF. Lets not let last night deter us from what should be a fantastic 2018 election cycle. Lets not throw away this chance because 2 races didn't go our way. Especially in districts that a Democrat really has no place in winning in the first place.
First, the brand is the brand. Unless Democrats relent on issues such as gun control, sexual freedom and abortion, a large segment of the population will reject the party on-site. In the mind of many republicans, its not about right vs wrong, its about good vs evil and you ain't changing their mind.
Second, what the Georgia race says to me is that Republicans are going have to work really, really hard in 2018. Its easy to fundraise for a single race over a short period of time. But, having 50 competitive races added to the other 50 that are usually competitive every cycle, eventually this is where you will see the breakdown occur. There is only so much money, so much TV ad time, and so many high quality political operatives to go around. You saw this in last Republican take over when most of the Blue Dogs lost their seats. It was just too much for an established party to control.
IMO, the key will be to make so many of the races competitive that republicans will have to start choosing who their priorities are. One good poll in the wrong direction and you will see time and energy shift away from races like we saw in Georgia to help those that are more "winnable."
Anyway, to all my Dem friends here on GAF. Lets not let last night deter us from what should be a fantastic 2018 election cycle. Lets not throw away this chance because 2 races didn't go our way. Especially in districts that a Democrat really has no place in winning in the first place.
Mighty Chin
Banned
I think this is bullshit. I think the problem is that Dems internalize what Reps think about our candidates and make us second guess them. We attach every single slander they make to them and start making them our own.
We were not going to win these special elections. There is a reason why they were contested. The RNC had a lot of say on what Seats Trump could pull his cabinet from. Deep Red for a reason. They know that when push comes to shove that they were safe seats.
Well guess what? They are but now they ain't so Deep Red.
The entire field of economics shifted to the right because many hard-left ideas straight up don't work. Socialism/Communism/etc. were completely discredited, and a lot of traditional left/liberal ideas ended up w/ massive problems attached. Economic growth is a very good thing that has helped lead to a massive reduction in poverty and a massive increase in standards of living.
This is not to say that the current state of affairs is perfect- there was obviously a massive overcorrection to the right in the '80s that's led to an enormous amount of problems in its wake! Dems aren't pushing solutions from the '60s, they're pushing modern solutions to these issues rooted in the center of modern economics. Some lean liberal, some (like Obamacare) lean libertarian.
Lack of universal health care is an economic issue. Licensing over-regulation is an economic issue. It's possible to be for increasing social safety nets so they're universl, for better health/safety/polution regulations, AND for removing onerous regulations that negatively impact people while having no positive benefit.
The idea that we haven't been fighting for these things because we're not willing to say that "wanting to make money is bad" is ludicrous.
OG Shaka Zulu
Member
Make Bernie or Shaun King leader.
Mammoth Jones
Member
Preach. Old fucks holding onto power regardless how it fucks over the rest of us.
Obama beat Hillary's race baiting 2008 campaign by attacking Hillary's corruption and highlighting her weaknesses on economic issues. Obama pointed out her past as an executive on the board of Walmart and her vote for a bankruptcy bill that favored the financial industry. It was still quite an uphill battle for him though.
Here's a direct quote from minority champion, Hillary Clinton.
Only white Americans are hard-working after all. Non-whites just live off the government unlike the diligent working, hard-working white Americans.
The best way to defeat appeals to white identity is by embracing economic populism. Democrats need to make tribal white Americans choose between being a poor, sick bigot or a well off, healthy non-racist. Republicans can win being the pro corporate white identity party because of the electoral college disproportionately favors white people. Democrats cannot win being the pro corporate non-white identity party for that same reason.
At the same time, Democrats cannot abandon their base. That depresses turnout and leads to lost elections. Democrats need to commit to both economic and social justice. An example of economic justice would be advocating for a living wage. An example of social justice would be advocating for police accountability (video cameras).
Here's a direct quote from minority champion, Hillary Clinton.
Only white Americans are hard-working after all. Non-whites just live off the government unlike the diligent working, hard-working white Americans.
The best way to defeat appeals to white identity is by embracing economic populism. Democrats need to make tribal white Americans choose between being a poor, sick bigot or a well off, healthy non-racist. Republicans can win being the pro corporate white identity party because of the electoral college disproportionately favors white people. Democrats cannot win being the pro corporate non-white identity party for that same reason.
At the same time, Democrats cannot abandon their base. That depresses turnout and leads to lost elections. Democrats need to commit to both economic and social justice. An example of economic justice would be advocating for a living wage. An example of social justice would be advocating for police accountability (video cameras).
Nazgul_Hunter
Member
Honestly, I think she should retire. Shes a Hillary level boogieman for the right; her latest public appearances havent been impressive and she might do a lot of good work behind the scenes as a party elder. She and the old guard are too restrained against trump; and they dont seem to know how to brodge the gap between all the Dem factions.
crackhead_bob
Member
We don't have a Vietnam War that affects them. That's my takeaway on why young people don't seem to vote during elections.
Massive complacency appears to be a systemic problem w/ 18-25ers who grow up under a Dem admin (meaning they were 11->17 when Obama took office.) Same "both sides" nonsense came up in both '00 and '16.
Older Millenials (26-35) grew up with 9/11, the Iraq War, and the Great Recession. Stark difference.
Autodidact
Banned
That doesn't even help. In 1972, the first election in which 18-21-year-olds had the franchise, youth turnout was about 55%, if the statistics I consulted are correct. Young people just don't care or have myriad excuses.
CaptainABAB
Member
There must be something about her that turns off voters if the republicans keeps using her in ads over and over again (2010-2017). I'm not questioning her ability to execute in congress, just the optics.
https://twitter.com/MeetThePress/status/877639774550544384
Money talks and there is not a single other democrat that is as good as Pelosi at fundraising. Let her do her thing and have others handle branding and strategy.
Dr. Benton Quest
Banned
You're trying to place a band-aid without fixing the root of the issue. Capitalism lifts some people out of poverty by exploiting workers in other areas. Your goods are cheap because people are oppressed.
How well has capitalism worked for black americans in poverty? Capitalism has inherent mechanisms that allow those with means to exploit those without them.Think of almost all minority groups in america and the percentage of them that live in poverty.
Secret discrimination in companies? Ridiculous prison populations? Ludicrous mandatory minimums? City "restructuring"? Almost all mechanisms used to oppress would be worthless without capitalism.
When those with means are racist fucks, they use their means to prevent the rise of minorities. Removing the economic leverage that the the white majority uses against blacks would go a long way in ensuring their rights. Do you think the Justice System's bail bullshit is not rooted in capitalism? Do you not think that for-profit prisons enslave blacks for profit?
Your solution to this is what? Make sure they have better welfare?
The Albatross
Member
I think a lot of people don't understand the value of seasoned legislators, both at crafting legislation that will pass, and being able to bring over other people to make compromise... Not members of the other party, but members of your own party. Obamacare likely would not have passed the House had Nancy Pelosi not been as affective as she was at convincing middle-american Democrats to vote for the bill. About 40 democrats voted against Obamacare, and if 3 more had voted against it, it would have failed the house and been scrapped.
Pelosi is an effective negotiator for legislation. It's something that's hard to replicate with a "next man up" strategy, or an idea of just nominating some new upstart legislator who will magically "inspire the base!"
I'm open to new Democratic leadership and supported Seth Moulton on the call 2 years ago, but I don't think that Democrats losing 4 special elections for appointment vacancies in safe red states should be the motivator for new Democratic leadership... Not when the most important congressional election for Democrats is 2 years away and they need to raise money.
Pelosi is an effective negotiator for legislation. It's something that's hard to replicate with a "next man up" strategy, or an idea of just nominating some new upstart legislator who will magically "inspire the base!"
I'm open to new Democratic leadership and supported Seth Moulton on the call 2 years ago, but I don't think that Democrats losing 4 special elections for appointment vacancies in safe red states should be the motivator for new Democratic leadership... Not when the most important congressional election for Democrats is 2 years away and they need to raise money.
outunderthestars
Banned
This right here. We need to force a substantial change in leadership within the party.
Turned 18 for the 2000 election, wasnt complacent, but did subscribe to the both sides argument and voted nader (in Kansas so dont be too mad). I have long since learned the error of my ways. If dems don't want to lose those folks to complacency then they need a bold vision.
- Universal Healthcare
- Free College
- Student Loan Forgiveness
- Massive Investment in Self-driving Cars/Mass Transit
- 15 minimum wage and tie it to inflation
The solution is to gain control of the levers of power and remake them the best you can, not to pretend that power will not re-fill the vacuum you create.
Capitalism is not the cause of racism. Racism is not the cause of capitalism. They are two separate intersecting axes.
jakonovski
Member
Has anyone tried to assess how many votes the Democrats lose due to gerrymandering and voter suppression by the other side? Would it help to tackle that or is the US political system irreparably broke there too?