The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I mean this is ultimately a debate about "what will generate the most gains going forward?"
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NYT: Democrats: Our Brand Is Worse Than Trump
- Thread starter Saucycarpdog
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I mean this is ultimately a debate about "what will generate the most gains going forward?"
I remember this race. And that article is a perfect example highlighting what I've been trying to say -- the Ossoff loss does not matter.
And_Gignac
Member
Lol. Labour won a district that hadn't elected anything other than a Conversative MP since 100 years ago. Do not dare to compare the failure the Dems currently are with what Labour is pulling off atm in U.K.
Autodidact
Banned
See also this article about the 2005 special election in OH-02.
Many striking parallels between this race and last night's in GA-06:
1. Republican-held seat for 30+ years.
2. Received national attention.
3. Male upstart Democrat versus older female Republican with penchant for gaffes and shadiness.
4. Extremely close result instead of what should've been an easy Republican victory.
The next year, Democrats reclaimed the House. Trump may be an abnormal president, but midterm elections work in fairly predictable, cyclical ways.
Many striking parallels between this race and last night's in GA-06:
1. Republican-held seat for 30+ years.
2. Received national attention.
3. Male upstart Democrat versus older female Republican with penchant for gaffes and shadiness.
4. Extremely close result instead of what should've been an easy Republican victory.
The next year, Democrats reclaimed the House. Trump may be an abnormal president, but midterm elections work in fairly predictable, cyclical ways.
moffattron9000
Member
Huh. Worth keeping things in perspective.
And the dems won a district in New York that had never been democratic. There has been no nationwide election since Trump for comparison otherwise. And before the come-back that labor had recently, they were on the brink too. Hell, the margins in Congress now are pretty close to the margins in Britain post election.
And_Gignac
Member
Maybe some people have priorities in mind, like how to feed their children. They showed off for Obama, how the Dems can make that happen again? That's the question Dem operative need to answer.
What exactly are Labour pulling off? They aren't part of the ruling government and the next general election isn't until 2022.
Autodidact
Banned
Yeah, people act as though Congressional Democrats have been decimated even though they gained in the House and Senate last year.
And they've made progress at the state level, too. Many of those gains came because some states like Nevada swung really blue last year.
The fact of the matter is they showed up for Obama because he was charismatic. They didn't push Gore over the edge because he wasn't that charasmatic. They pushed Clinton over the edge because he was charismatic. They put Regan in charge because he was charismatic(An actor).
In the end it's more about how you say something than what you're saying in politics(Like the average voter actually pays attention to what is being said beyond broad sweeping statements anyway). Hillary was very uncharismatic, which was her problem, bottomline.
That's funny, I have priorities in mind too, like how to keep my child from getting murdered by white supremacists.
If their goal is to get jobs and healthcare and stuff, well, great. Trump is going to fail at doing all those things, so presumably they'll all just flip back to the Democrats without doing anything differently. Unless of course there's some kind of cultural problem.
excelsiorlef
Member
LOL people didn't vote for Trump to feed their families.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Really good point.
Hierophant
Banned
I'm not saying I don't care about minorities, I'm saying get a candidate with actual bite, someone who fires up passion to vote in people, I'd say go even further and belittle, insult and mock at every turn, vulgarity is the language of the working class and you should try to speak to them. They go low we go high doesn't work, because we already know we're better than them and they don't care.
I would say a message that has already proven its capable of producing results in primaries and general elections would produce the most gains over a strategy that is encouraging the disposal of key democratic voting blocs. There have been ample opportunities to prove otherwise.
excelsiorlef
Member
You realize Democrats get held to a much higher standard of behavior eh?
That's funny, I thought they were godless killing monsters who can't do anything right.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
And maybe some people have priorities like keeping their children from being killed by racist scum.
You'd think that would be enough of a rallying cry. But then, this is America we're talking about.
GillianSeed79
Member
The fundamental problem with the U.S. political system is the amount of money you have to raise as well as the level of financial and social affluence you have to have in order to successfully run for national political office is so great that your own political and ideological beliefs as well as integrity are already so fucking compromised by the time you get on the balott you are already are a dispassionate, soulless, morally bankrupt husk beholden to your wealthy beneficiaries even if you get elected. Trump is already rich, which is why he says whatever the fuck wants. Bernie is an incumbent whose seat is safe until he dies. Dems are basically slightly less scary oligarchs in our system due to corruption.
The
Snowman Prophet of Doom
Member
It takes time to turn someone into a pariah, is the point. Changing up party leaders at least with every administration is a way to both stave off stagnation and shake off the accumulated grime of GOP slander.
Even without caring about minorities, having a manchild like Trump in office should be enough for any sane individual to vote for any half-reasonable candidate to stop him.
Bottom line I'll agree that you need someone charismatic to take hold of the party. I just don't see who that would be at the moment. I wouldn't even say you need someone that belittle's and mocks, though that could work, just someone that has some kind of charisma. Pelosi ain't it, schumer's OK but not great at it, Booker is good at speechcraft but has baggage that could help opponents run commercials on him, Bernie has some charisma but is far from a unifying figure that can bring the party together(hell, he's an I right now).
So, the question is, who is gonna get put out there for half-sane individuals to rally behind.
They're either one when Republicans want them to be. Republicans are great at marketing. If Dems take the high road, they're weak and Republicans will trot out any example they can find of a dem being mean to call them hipocrites. They don't take the high road? "How dare they be so divisive!"
excelsiorlef
Member
Huh?
The point is, only Democrats hold themselves to a higher standard, unless Fox News is setting it.
kitsunelaine
Banned
Uhh, that's demonstrably wrong. Like, factually so. Democrats are held by republicans to standards they don't hold their own party to. See: the massive shrugging over security failure on Trump's end but the explosion over Buttheremails.
excelsiorlef
Member
Nah it's not just Fox News...
Cow Mengde
Banned
It's everyone's fault!! Hillary is never at fault. YAS QUEEN!!!!
excelsiorlef
Member
And_Gignac
Member
Why wasn't this a problem with Obama? Why? People are one dimensional voters. Every group has priorities. Of course the priorities of black people and Latino getting murdered by white supremacists pieces of shit shoukd be the priority of the whole fucking country. And enough to tip the balance. But then again, ans I am talking specially of the ex Obama voters who deflected to Trump, why they voted for Barack and didn't for Hillary?
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Strange how getting close for Labour is a miracle but getting close in GA06 is a once in a lifetime failure.
And_Gignac
Member
Polling at 44% atm, an historic high for Labour. Didn't trump only won Georgia by 1.5%?
Cow Mengde
Banned
I did read the post. I probably shouldn't have quoted him with it. I was trying to agree with him with a more sarcastic reply.
He won Georgia by 5%, and he won GA6 by more than that. And Hillary won the popular vote in the U.S, and you can't say the same for labor.
5.2%, but I'm not sure why any of that matters.
Presidential =/= House election.
GA6 is a R +20 district that Ossof turned into a R +3.7. That's one hell of a swing.
excelsiorlef
Member
Ok you realize pigeon wasn't shitting on Clinton like you were eh?
Except they'll vote the racist, sexist person who better addresses the issues relevant to them.
... But he doesn't, is the thing? And it wasn't hard to tell that Trump was an incompetent shooting from the hip. I agree that messaging and charisma are important, more important than policy positions, but let's not pretend that people thinking Trump was good for them on any issue were anything other than delusional.
Amibguous Cad
Member
I don't understand why we want to run away from this one.
Another way of saying "Bernie supporters voted Trump in surprising numbers" is to say "Bernie connects with working class whites in a way other Democratic politicians don't." It's why he's attractive as a nominee! We have this weird situation where the far left appeals more to swing voters than the establishment candidate.
Or perhaps more broadly, establishment/insurgent is rapidly becoming as important as left/right to many voters, and if dems intend to strangle the only bit of their party that claim the insurgent label because they can't let Walter Mondale go, we're all in a bit of trouble.
He does. Why do you think they keep saying that he "tells it like it is" even when they admit that he's constantly lying about his policy?
He opened his campaign on literally day-one by calling mexicans rapists and criminals. He's speaking exactly to their main concern. They hate minorities and he does, too. He's more open about it than other politicians. That gave him a huge leg up.
Yeah, by being racist and sexist, the issues they prioritize.
Amibguous Cad
Member
Okay? Do you want their votes or not? Do you want to win elections or not? Do you want to stop Trump or not?
Those kind of voters are not reliable. They are flaky, selfish and demand a "perfect" candidate on their terms or else its scorched earth. You don't build a strong base out of voters like that. If they wise up and don't vote like douchbags great, if not fuck em. There are better and more efficient ways to spend time and money building a more reliable and long lasting base.
jakonovski
Member
Demonstrably, they can be key to winning an election and are easily persuaded by bullshit promises. As such, deciding they're not ideologically compatible will result in a string of losses unless a substitute voter block is found.
So any plans on how to make the youth vote?
Melkezadek
Member
Since we're told time and time again that they were a minority that didn't cost the election, why bother?
I agree, let's purge the party of its senior leadership. It's what we need for 2018! While we're at it let's put Bernie in charge of the DNC and have Cenk run the DCCC. The Democrats will never lose again.
Burning down the tent and starting from 0 is not a winning strategy.
