• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Of the two hotly anticipated games, which is likely to have the stronger emergent gameplay? (TLoU v DS)

It 'seeming' larger is meaningless until ND show off something that proves that's a gameplay thing and not just smarter art direction doing a better job of hiding area boundaries.

I broke down my reasoning and gave you a logical explanation for my take. You meanwhile have been throwing a tantrum and projecting bias because someone dared to express something other than unconditional love for your Next Favourite Game.

I've already watched that footage today for the sake of giving your point a fair shake. Doesn't look like it was worth the time though, since you're falling back on this pathetic stan behaviour. HUR DUR IT'S CLEAR AS DAY I CAN'T UNDERSTAND THE IDEA OF PEOPLE HAVING DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES. Yeah, no. Explain yourself or fuck off.

Though before you attempt that, how about you explain for the room what exactly you think emergent gameplay is? All this Last of Us flag-waving is making me think you don't actually have a clue what you're talking about.

This is what we call goalpost moving. I linked a video where multiple alternate paths are shown, where stealth is attempted and eventually fails and the gameplay is different due to the failed stealth vs perfect stealth, just as it would have been different if they never even attempted stealth. TLOU wasn't a game with invisible barriers so all those clear alternate routes are going to be just that... alternate routes, if you seriously are going to argue a ND game is going to launch with invisible walls to block you from taking other paths that's just nuts. You used as an example the footage of Norman Reedus in an open field being spotted by dudes he could have avoided on patrol... the whole video I linked is patrolling enemies you can sneak by, kill stealthily or outright murder loudly. There was even verticality in the choices of where to go in the TLOU footage, which is absent from the Death Stranding example you used.
 
Last edited:

ethomaz

Banned
It won't have MP at launch, they've said it's still coming.
Nope.

They said MP is not part of The Last of Us Part 2 anymore.
They will use the ideias and vision of TLOU2's MP to create a new game.

I'm a bit surprised how much misinformation is being spread when the ND's tweet says clearly what I posted.
 
Last edited:
I'm just glad that PS4 offers both experiences & caters to a wide variety of customers.


d9SEDWc.png

Notice how even in a shitposting meme like this, every single game except Cuphead is available on PS4. Even PS4 haters are unwittingly singing its praises. PS Cuatro, the ultimate gaming machine, going out strong.

TFW left side is unironically way better besides Hollow Knight being totally amazing. I mean if games like Minecraft and Fortnite are "what gaming is truly about" then I'm fine with being a dumb millennial who doesn't get gaming.
 
Nope.

They said MP is not part of The Last of Us Part 2 anymore.

They will use the ideias and vision of TLOU2's MP to create a new game.

They said when and where is to be determined but that it's coming, there's no discounting it being similar to GTA Online or Red Dead Online, it's just speculation right now.
 

ethomaz

Banned
They said when and where is to be determined but that it's coming, there's no discounting it being similar to GTA Online or Red Dead Online, it's just speculation right now.
Read again.



MP Faction is not part of The Last of Us Part 2 anymore.
They will create a new game with the ideias and vision MP Faction... when (date) and where (PS4 or PS5) it is to be determined.

Super high chances it is a PS5 game.

GTA Online is part of GTA5 and Red Dead Online is part of RDR2... coming late doesn't make it a new game.
 
Last edited:
Read again.



MP Faction is not part of The Last of Us Part 2 anymore.
They will create a new game with the ideias and vision MP Faction... when (date) and where (PS4 or PS5) it is to be determined.

GTA Online is part of GTA5 and Red Dead Online is part of RDR2... coming late doesn't make it a new game.


So, this is a distinction without a difference. If the mode is free to play it won't matter, if it costs an extra 20 dollars it's no different from a DLC, if they create a full price game comparable to Overwatch or something then sure, you've made your point. Heck, Team Fortress 2 originally sold separate from Half-Life 2 prior to the amazing deal that was the Orange Box so what's being done is far from unheard of. The thing is, all I said was "MP is still coming" which is what they said, regardless of where they said it'd be showing up. The game isn't out until February, I'm sure we'll get clearer information between now and then and feel silly for debating something we don't know the details of yet.
 

ethomaz

Banned
So, this is a distinction without a difference. If the mode is free to play it won't matter, if it costs an extra 20 dollars it's no different from a DLC, if they create a full price game comparable to Overwatch or something then sure, you've made your point. Heck, Team Fortress 2 originally sold separate from Half-Life 2 prior to the amazing deal that was the Orange Box so what's being done is far from unheard of. The thing is, all I said was "MP is still coming" which is what they said, regardless of where they said it'd be showing up. The game isn't out until February, I'm sure we'll get clearer information between now and then and feel silly for debating something we don't know the details of yet.
The question is about TLOU2's gameplay that lacks MP (and won't come late) to shows if it is good or not... so I give my opinion because the gameplay of the first game shines in the MP and it is where you see it as one of the best TPS's gameplay in the market and after corrected you about the MP coming because it is not coming to TLOU2.
 
Last edited:

Shifty

Member
This is what we call goalpost moving
You haven't gotten the ball anywhere near the goalposts yet, let alone close enough to make me consider moving them....

It's called "not convincing myself that the thing I want is true out of hype" or "waiting for evidence before making a judgement".

I linked a video where multiple alternate paths are shown, where stealth is attempted and eventually fails and the gameplay is different due to the failed stealth vs perfect stealth, just as it would have been different if they never even attempted stealth.
Finally, we're getting somewhere! And all it took was a tantrum and some petty insults for you to actually engage in a discussion.

To start with, having a stealth layer does not qualify a game as having emergent gameplay.
MGS1, for example, is not an emergent game- its guards and their patterns are all pre-defined and reset when you enter a room. The per-area problem space of perfect stealth / partial stealth / murder everyone is not deep enough for any additional layers of un-designed gameplay to 'emerge'.

Last of Us does have a more complex problem space by virtue of having larger more complex areas, distraction mechanics, the new scent tracking, and enemies needing to shout to alert eachother, but it's still a linear stealth game at its core. Enemies will still lose aggro and eventually go back to a patrol route, and you will either stealth perfectly, stealth partially, or kill everything. Where's the emergence?

TLOU wasn't a game with invisible barriers so all those clear alternate routes are going to be just that... alternate routes, if you seriously are going to argue a ND game is going to launch with invisible walls to block you from taking other paths that's just nuts.
Note that I didn't say 'invisible walls'.

Every game is going to have play boundaries of some sort, and Last of Us achieves them by building spaces that are large and convincing, then penning the player into a linear subset of them via smart art design.

Until we see footage that actually shows what those boundaries are in 2, we have no concrete point of reference for the game's scope and any assertions about it are speculation. Sure, the linear corridors might be wider and have more routes, but that still isn't going to rival a systems-driven open world game like DS.

You used as an example the footage of Norman Reedus in an open field being spotted by dudes he could have avoided on patrol... the whole video I linked is patrolling enemies you can sneak by, kill stealthily or outright murder loudly. There was even verticality in the choices of where to go in the TLOU footage, which is absent from the Death Stranding example you used.
The point isn't that the patrol could have been avoided, it's that the patrol wasn't guaranteed to be a factor in the first place.

Their route will be big enough - by virtue of being in an open world - that you might not even have encountered them. They might not even be on patrol based on factors like the time of day, or some event occurring elsewhere and taking their attention. The player might take some other route that subverts the patrol completely, or have actually caused the patrol to happen in the first place by causing an alert in an adjacent area.

It's that layering of possibilities and systems that defines emergent gameplay, not just taking an existing non-emergent model and adding complexity to it via extra mechanics and bigger levels.
 
You haven't gotten the ball anywhere near the goalposts yet, let alone close enough to make me consider moving them....

It's called "not convincing myself that the thing I want is true out of hype" or "waiting for evidence before making a judgement".


Finally, we're getting somewhere! And all it took was a tantrum and some petty insults for you to actually engage in a discussion.

To start with, having a stealth layer does not qualify a game as having emergent gameplay.
MGS1, for example, is not an emergent game- its guards and their patterns are all pre-defined and reset when you enter a room. The per-area problem space of perfect stealth / partial stealth / murder everyone is not deep enough for any additional layers of un-designed gameplay to 'emerge'.

Last of Us does have a more complex problem space by virtue of having larger more complex areas, distraction mechanics, the new scent tracking, and enemies needing to shout to alert eachother, but it's still a linear stealth game at its core. Enemies will still lose aggro and eventually go back to a patrol route, and you will either stealth perfectly, stealth partially, or kill everything. Where's the emergence?


Note that I didn't say 'invisible walls'.

Every game is going to have play boundaries of some sort, and Last of Us achieves them by building spaces that are large and convincing, then penning the player into a linear subset of them via smart art design.

Until we see footage that actually shows what those boundaries are in 2, we have no concrete point of reference for the game's scope and any assertions about it are speculation. Sure, the linear corridors might be wider and have more routes, but that still isn't going to rival a systems-driven open world game like DS.


The point isn't that the patrol could have been avoided, it's that the patrol wasn't guaranteed to be a factor in the first place.

Their route will be big enough - by virtue of being in an open world - that you might not even have encountered them. They might not even be on patrol based on factors like the time of day, or some event occurring elsewhere and taking their attention. The player might take some other route that subverts the patrol completely, or have actually caused the patrol to happen in the first place by causing an alert in an adjacent area.

It's that layering of possibilities and systems that defines emergent gameplay, not just taking an existing non-emergent model and adding complexity to it via extra mechanics and bigger levels.

1. You shifted the goalposts when you made it a semantic battle over what truly qualifies as emergent game play, that wasn't your original argument.
2. Waiting for evidence is great, the thing is we have a few gameplay videos already that evince a more open structure and ND aren't among the devs who lie about how their games work and show flashy fake E3 presentations.
3. MGS1 is such a bad example to prove your point! It's incredibly linear and almost always requires stealth to succeed, it isn't stealth optional in that first entry for most your run through! The areas are normally just narrow corridors or warehouses.
4. We don't know if guard patterns are pre-defined in TLOU ll.
5. "Linear stealth game at it's core" - didn't know you played it.
6. "Enemies will still lose aggro and return to a patrol route" - wtf, are you a dev of the game, have you played it? What are you basing these ideas on?
7. Invisible walls would need to exist for you to not be able to take the clearly shown alternate paths in the gameplay demo I linked.
8. Again you're arguing based on the first game. Also against a straw man, neither Death Stranding or TLOU II have been advertised as "fully open world" they both have boundaries somewhere. TLOU II has shown us in previews the boundaries are further back than before, it's also been said in interviews.
9. I mean, what are the videos showing Death Stranding's boundaries?
10. Linear corridors? There weren't corridors in the footage I linked.
11. And you know this how?
12. Depends on the open world game and how well designed it is. And you have no way of knowing TLOU II isn't capable of such things as well.
13. There was clearly a way to subvert the patrol entirely in the video I showed.
14. And finally we get to your conclusion based on knowledge you can't have and a surface level understanding of what you saw happen on-screen.

My conclusion is, you're making lots of shit up on the fly. I expect Death Stranding to be bigger and have more emergent gameplay... if you look back through the thread I even say as much in response to the thread question but that doesn't mean your baseless ideas of how linear TLOU II will be hold any water or match the footage we've seen. When Neil Druckman told a journalist they could have gotten through a whole area killing no one was he lying? Or is that how the game actually is? I'd rather assume he's not lying unless someone proves to me he's a known liar.
 
Top Bottom