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[Opinion] April 2023 is the beginning of the end for Xbox as we know it.
- Thread starter Heisenberg007
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Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
There can be an argument though that the PS4 generation was so good because they felt the pressure of not repeating the PS3 / Xbox 360 generation.
Agreed.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
But they are not selling as much hardware, and whatever they are selling is netting them a loss of up to $200.
If Xbox sold 20 million Xbox Series X|S consoles, that means they have lost roughly $3 billion in just selling those consoles. That's a lot of money that Xbox could have saved if they were more like Sega or EA.
GenericUser
Member
I'm out of the loop, what happened yesterday?
Tiago Rodrigues
Member
Even i that don't play on Xbox know this isn't true.
That said...if MS ever feel the need to drop one of their businesses, that will be Xbox for sure. They will need to give their shareholders a reason to have this division specifically since it's the one that's not giving them anything big.
Anyway...for now Xbox doesn't have to be on top (which they never were) to be healthy.
They will keep at a distant 3rd place, MS will keep feeding the division for some reason but no need for all the doom and gloom.
That said...if MS ever feel the need to drop one of their businesses, that will be Xbox for sure. They will need to give their shareholders a reason to have this division specifically since it's the one that's not giving them anything big.
Anyway...for now Xbox doesn't have to be on top (which they never were) to be healthy.
They will keep at a distant 3rd place, MS will keep feeding the division for some reason but no need for all the doom and gloom.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
God damn it Rivet, I thought you died or something.
I havent seen your laugh emoji on any of my posts recently......will you bless me once again?
Skifi28
Member
All hell broke loose.
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
MS was selling the XSX at loss at launch 2.5 years ago. I find it very hard to believe that's still the case.
FrankWza
Member
Innovation and choice in cloud gaming was protected.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
The last time we heard about the $200 loss (up to) was only 6 months ago. (Nov 2022).
Xbox Loses As Much As $200 On Every Xbox It Sells, Phil Spencer Says
Microsoft expects to make back the money through sales of games and accessories.
www.gamespot.com
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Microsoft / ABK acquisition was blocked by the CMA (UK).
arguments?? The thread has not been made based on arguments. It is made based on a narrative that is almost a decade old
.That you opened it is the least surprising because (this is very funny) you had it planned the same if the ABK thing had had another sign and not the blockade.
XBOX was in a much worse situation 6 years ago and even so, what is happening today is that the XBOX console continues to exist and with an announcement already made that there are more consoles in development.
XBOX console is a differential product and of great social value for MS. Its liquidation should be the result of a ruinous situation and even in the XBO era this did not happen. XBOX console is the main channel of subscriptions, a source of publicity and income. Liquidating the console business would suddenly cause the deterioration of the business of subscriptions, microtransactions, etc., which, as seen in MS's finances, is a healthy and essential source of income.
From there. Unlike the XBO era. MS, without the need for ABK, has a conglomerate of Studios and more than enough resources to supply its console and cloud gaming and gamepass business with content at the same time (cloud gaming Is inded based on console hardware).
And, despite what happens with ABK, it is clear that MS is going to continue in the process of acquiring more Studios and MAYBE publishers.
That the time will come when MS terminate with physical hardware? That's for sure, and it's not just MS going to do it. Cloud gaming is the future...... but still far away. Until that one arrives, I think you're going to have XBOX consoles on the market.
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Physiognomonics
Member
You made some interesting points. But I think they are fine selling what Xbox they can in order to sell more services on it. Even PC companies like Steam are doing consoles those days. No reasons not to it.
This is why they'll also release a mid-gen model because they are good reasons to do it particularly in the current PC ecosystems with terrible ports (because of software) and incredibly expensive GPUs.
People who think PC will dominate are wrong as we actually still see plenty of successful gaming devices. We could make a point about the XSS, which is a failure by most accounts, but clearly not about XSX which is still hard to buy in many countries.
This is why they'll also release a mid-gen model because they are good reasons to do it particularly in the current PC ecosystems with terrible ports (because of software) and incredibly expensive GPUs.
People who think PC will dominate are wrong as we actually still see plenty of successful gaming devices. We could make a point about the XSS, which is a failure by most accounts, but clearly not about XSX which is still hard to buy in many countries.
tommycronin
Banned
jshaver488
Member
The average review score of first party games from MS since the new consoles launched is at like an 85. Their exclusives may have been bad much of last gen, but that’s no longer the case
People laughing but people have no arguments. They just want to keep saying “Xbox bad”
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Kdad
Member
BRB...setting up an bot to post daily...I'm immortal now bitches.
KrazyKrelian
Banned
Microsoft will be fine in the long run but coming up soon Redfall will bomb hard and not help the situation at all.
TheGodfather07
Member
If consoles sales are still down the next few quarters, then yeah, there is a possibility of Microsoft abandoning xbox hardware. What use would there be sticking around at that point? If it really is a supply problem, we should see massive yoy increases eventually. Time will tell.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
My arguments are that Xbox does not believe in the physical console model anyway. They believe in the Cloud gaming model more and reaching out to 3 billion gamers -- not just 150 million high-end console users.
Add on top of it the enormous loss they endure to sell every single piece of Xbox Series X|S, does it not make more sense to implement their console-less vision more aggressively that they already plan to implement in the future anyway?
And I'm not too sure about Xbox adding income to Microsoft. Revenue, sure. But operating profit? I seriously doubt that. If anything, Xbox division is more likely to be in the red than green.
As I calculated above, just selling these 20 million Xbox Series X|S means Microsoft has lost $3 billion. This does not seem very logical or financially viable.
As for 6 years ago, Microsoft did decide to kill Xbox back then. It was saved only because of Phil's vision of Cloud and a (eventually) console-less gaming division.
kyussman
Member
Xbox without the box would be an interesting strategy,lol........seriously though,some of you are so desperate for Microsoft to get out of gaming it's hilarious.Personally I have no desire for Sony to be the only ones offering a console for high end gaming.....and neither should anyone else.Competition is always better for gamers,even if it's Microsoft competition.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
I agree with. Red fall isn’t a stand alone game. Even without any of its launch issues. It would have been a better gage to release along side a bigger release.
Captain Toad
Banned
Microsoft shareholders forget Xbox is even a thing.
Shareholders agree with you.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
feynoob
Banned
Console sales shouldn't be an indication. As these gets affected by the state of first party games and the state of the platform.
Xbox could have a huge hardware sales during this holiday, which negates the downturn for 2022.
It's the best to look at their content pipe, and their studios. These are the indication of how a platform performs.
So far, MS stated they are going to buy more studios. Maybe not be a big publisher after activision blackout.
These buyout can change the dynamics of Xbox, especially if they buy a talented studios like remedy.
kruis
Exposing the sinister cartel of retailers who allow companies to pay for advertising space.
The last time we heard about the $200 loss (up to) was only 6 months ago. (Nov 2022).
Xbox Loses As Much As $200 On Every Xbox It Sells, Phil Spencer Says
Microsoft expects to make back the money through sales of games and accessories.
Ah, I see. Selling consoles at $100-200 loss two years after launch, that's not good.
My guess is that Gamepass isn't profitable either. MS more or less gave gamepass away for a dollar a month for a couple of years. At the same time gamepass is hurting Xbox game first and third party sales. As the Xbox platform holder MS gets a fixed licensing fee for each disc sold plus a 30% cut of any sales through their online Xbox store. If gamepass is making Xbox gamers increasingly unlikely to buy full price games outside of gamepass, that's not just hurting third party publishers but in effect MS as well, since there's less revenues coming outside of their subscription services.
saintjules
Member
I thought with all the studios they bought already and (nothing really to show for it yet), what changes will we see with even more buy outs?
A huge holiday sale with currently no Console seller, personally I just don't see it right now. Maybe Hellblade II if it comes out this year. Maybe.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
I think it may happen once someone else enters the ring, no way Microsoft folds xbox and leaves Sony to just do what they want. That would be awful for all of us. Need someone like apple to jump in the ring first.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Exactly, that's the core of my argument.
- Selling consoles at a loss, hoping to recover money later by selling games.
- Unable to sell games later for a variety of reasons. (backed by data)
Daneel Elijah
Gold Member
I feel like you, but your post sadly do not go enough in detail into facts that would go towards a downfall of Xbox but more on what you would want them to do/ want to do if you were in their place. So I will respond to your points and explain why none of them are good enough in my opinion on their own to be signs of Xbox going third party:
Once again, I feel the same way. As I do not own a Xbox console, had never played Xbox top games outside of a few sessions a decade ago, and do not lives in the US they have never tried to please me like Sony did. So I see their failures a lot more easily than their success. And prefer them to fail and go away than possibly harm any chances of Sony continuing to give me what I have been experiencing since the PS2, because their consoles and their exclusives are some of my best gaming memories. Xbox going third party is giving me more games to play on my PS5
But what I want/ would do is not what they want or are doing. They believe on Gamepass now. And may continue for years to try. We will see what happens at E3. Even if it is not logical, a few people have asked if Starfield would be on PS5 after the CMA rejection. I want to believe, as my PC is a 1060 and even if I do have a 3060 in a portable PC I feel that the Pc version will be shit even more than usual if Tlou part I port and Jedi fallen order 2 are any indication.
The PS3 era could have been the exact same situation, but in reverse if you have just a little bad faith. The case is not as dire now, and Xbox not being as good as Sony in making consoles is not a problem (and that can be debatable, with the One X being prefered by some compared to the PS4 pro). They knew that and planned accordingly. They have already paid the costs for this generation and leaving now would be a waste. They are profitable too, just not as much as Playstation.
Microsoft believe in Gamepass. Normal then to gain less from direct sales. This is again a choice from them. You can disagree with their strategy, as I do, but this is volontary and so should no be a problem unless theirs pland fail somewhere else, or they underestimate the loss/ the gains they want elsewere.
Gamepass is there for the long term. Them not sharing numbers is a clue that it is not as good as they want, and they have admitted as such themselves. But being slow to gain market share and not gaining enough are very different matters, so not really a problem on it's own.
The sales point and Gamepass numbers are the same story in this case: they are going up, just not good enough. As you are talking about the downfall of Xbox, and not their success compared to Sony, the PS5 domination is irrelevant as the Wii success did not made the Xbox 360 and PS3 doomed to failure, just made it harder for them to prosper. You should compare Xbox to failures like the Gamecube(beaten by the first Xbox for GOD sake) and the Wii U. Both consoles were worse failures than the Series and Nintendo did recover so no reason for Xbox not to try the same.
This is more what you want/ believe, not reality. Why Xbox was not axed after the Xbox one reveal fiasco? Because Phil Spencer convinced them to continue. He got the job close to the end of 2014. Gamepass was a thing in 2017. The gap is big enough to believe that Phil could have tried to compete without this and going another way if he wanted. Of course Microsoft want for Xbox to be profitable. They are now in for the long term. You do not try a 69 billions acquisition otherwise. And they are still trying to buy ABK so they need Xbox to do so. Xbox consumers who have a console are more easily converted to Gamepass than PC players so consoles still matters to Microsoft.
Once again, I feel the same way. As I do not own a Xbox console, had never played Xbox top games outside of a few sessions a decade ago, and do not lives in the US they have never tried to please me like Sony did. So I see their failures a lot more easily than their success. And prefer them to fail and go away than possibly harm any chances of Sony continuing to give me what I have been experiencing since the PS2, because their consoles and their exclusives are some of my best gaming memories. Xbox going third party is giving me more games to play on my PS5
But what I want/ would do is not what they want or are doing. They believe on Gamepass now. And may continue for years to try. We will see what happens at E3. Even if it is not logical, a few people have asked if Starfield would be on PS5 after the CMA rejection. I want to believe, as my PC is a 1060 and even if I do have a 3060 in a portable PC I feel that the Pc version will be shit even more than usual if Tlou part I port and Jedi fallen order 2 are any indication.
RoboFu
One of the green rats
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Control is one of the most popular games by Remedy. And that sold only 3 million copies on all platforms.
Remedy’s Control has officially sold over 3 million copies - KitGuru
Control represents one of Remedy Entertainment’s most recent and biggest success stories, with the w
www.kitguru.net
If Bethesda and Obsidian didn't do much, what would Remedy do for Xbox?
And as I mentioned in the OP, Xbox is averaging 8.5 million consoles per year. Even if they have a record Q4 after Starfield in which they sell 5 million consoles, they'd still sell ~11-12 million Xbox Series X|S this year. That would be 50% less than what PS5 is pacing to sell in 2023.
digoutyoursoul
Member
What disappoints me more than anything with Xbox is when you consider the kind of capital they have, they are not the new brand on the market , they should be doing better.
I have no problem with PC day one releases, they should be going all out to make their consoles the best they can be along with it. Have you noticed they barely , if it all, acknowledge Series X anymore, all the marketing what remains of it seems far more focused on Series S.
People paid a lot of money for Series X during difficult economic times and they should be doing a much better job of showcasing that system. I don’t think they are at all, from the games to the UI experience, it feels half hearted.
They should not have to keep pushing the “we hear your feedback “ routine either. They shouldn’t have to keep doing this, they should have people there who understand that audience and build experiences from games to the UI that really show off the system and make it great.
I’m tired of the clout chasers and shills on twitter too, it feels like they are the only ones who have a voice or are heard by people like Sarah Bond or Aaron Greenberg and what they say more often than not lacks anything constructive. It’s all about slyly throwing shade to fans like me and keeping everything positive. How do things get better based on a refusal to look within yourself?
I just want them to do much better, to really compete with PlayStation and nothing against PlayStation at all, if them, Xbox and Nintendo are consistently bringing the goods across all categories we benefit as gamers.
I have no problem with PC day one releases, they should be going all out to make their consoles the best they can be along with it. Have you noticed they barely , if it all, acknowledge Series X anymore, all the marketing what remains of it seems far more focused on Series S.
People paid a lot of money for Series X during difficult economic times and they should be doing a much better job of showcasing that system. I don’t think they are at all, from the games to the UI experience, it feels half hearted.
They should not have to keep pushing the “we hear your feedback “ routine either. They shouldn’t have to keep doing this, they should have people there who understand that audience and build experiences from games to the UI that really show off the system and make it great.
I’m tired of the clout chasers and shills on twitter too, it feels like they are the only ones who have a voice or are heard by people like Sarah Bond or Aaron Greenberg and what they say more often than not lacks anything constructive. It’s all about slyly throwing shade to fans like me and keeping everything positive. How do things get better based on a refusal to look within yourself?
I just want them to do much better, to really compete with PlayStation and nothing against PlayStation at all, if them, Xbox and Nintendo are consistently bringing the goods across all categories we benefit as gamers.
DJ12
Member
FYI
Ms can ditch xbox and still be in gaming. I'd argue when they created the Microsoft Gaming division they already signed the death warrant and are just waiting to see if its worth saving.
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
I appreciate your detailed response and added context.I feel like you, but your post sadly do not go enough in detail into facts that would go towards a downfall of Xbox but more on what you would want them to do/ want to do if you were in their place. So I will respond to your points and explain why none of them are good enough in my opinion on their own to be signs of Xbox going third party:
The PS3 era could have been the exact same situation, but in reverse if you have just a little bad faith. The case is not as dire now, and Xbox not being as good as Sony in making consoles is not a problem (and that can be debatable, with the One X being prefered by some compared to the PS4 pro). They knew that and planned accordingly. They have already paid the costs for this generation and leaving now would be a waste. They are profitable too, just not as much as Playstation.
Microsoft believe in Gamepass. Normal then to gain less from direct sales. This is again a choice from them. You can disagree with their strategy, as I do, but this is volontary and so should no be a problem unless theirs pland fail somewhere else, or they underestimate the loss/ the gains they want elsewere.
Gamepass is there for the long term. Them not sharing numbers is a clue that it is not as good as they want, and they have admitted as such themselves. But being slow to gain market share and not gaining enough are very different matters, so not really a problem on it's own.
The sales point and Gamepass numbers are the same story in this case: they are going up, just not good enough. As you are talking about the downfall of Xbox, and not their success compared to Sony, the PS5 domination is irrelevant as the Wii success did not made the Xbox 360 and PS3 doomed to failure, just made it harder for them to prosper. You should compare Xbox to failures like the Gamecube(beaten by the first Xbox for GOD sake) and the Wii U. Both consoles were worse failures than the Series and Nintendo did recover so no reason for Xbox not to try the same.
This is more what you want/ believe, not reality. Why Xbox was not axed after the Xbox one reveal fiasco? Because Phil Spencer convinced them to continue. He got the job close to the end of 2014. Gamepass was a thing in 2017. The gap is big enough to believe that Phil could have tried to compete without this and going another way if he wanted. Of course Microsoft want for Xbox to be profitable. They are now in for the long term. You do not try a 69 billions acquisition otherwise. And they are still trying to buy ABK so they need Xbox to do so. Xbox consumers who have a console are more easily converted to Gamepass than PC players so consoles still matters to Microsoft.
Once again, I feel the same way. As I do not own a Xbox console, had never played Xbox top games outside of a few sessions a decade ago, and do not lives in the US they have never tried to please me like Sony did. So I see their failures a lot more easily than their success. And prefer them to fail and go away than possibly harm any chances of Sony continuing to give me what I have been experiencing since the PS2, because their consoles and their exclusives are some of my best gaming memories. Xbox going third party is giving me more games to play on my PS5
But what I want/ would do is not what they want or are doing. They believe on Gamepass now. And may continue for years to try. We will see what happens at E3. Even if it is not logical, a few people have asked if Starfield would be on PS5 after the CMA rejection. I want to believe, as my PC is a 1060 and even if I do have a 3060 in a portable PC I feel that the Pc version will be shit even more than usual if Tlou part I port and Jedi fallen order 2 are any indication.
I'd like to mention one thing, however. They didn't abandon Xbox because Phil convinced them that things will change.
Things haven't changed though, which is why I think Microsoft will be quicker this time to abandon the consoles because they have already once tried to keep it going.
I own both consoles the X and the PS5. Honestly, I dont consider myself to be a fanboy of either one. I buy both that way if there is a game I want to play... I can play it. Having said that... the xbox collects dust...
Halo - biggest letdown ever
Forza - fun
Sea of Thieves - fun but a generation old
Flight Simulator - fun
Other than that... nothing really. It just doesnt have games. put out Fable or something....
Halo - biggest letdown ever
Forza - fun
Sea of Thieves - fun but a generation old
Flight Simulator - fun
Other than that... nothing really. It just doesnt have games. put out Fable or something....
Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
This doesn't answer my question. You just posted the revenue chart.Seems pretty good
I asked what did they spend to get that $16 billion revenue.
feynoob
Banned
Remedy, Bethesda and obsidian are all quality studios.
Bethesda and obsidian haven't even released AAA game on Xbox.
Plus sales isn't an indication for them, when they have gamepass. It's why these 3 fits Xbox for them. They will make quality games for game pass.
Also control was given for free on ps+ and Epic store and gamepass.
As for your console sales, Xbox draught is affecting them badly. They didn't have stable release schedule since releasing Xbox series, which is why sales fluctuate depending on their release schedule.
Stable release schedule means more console sales.
T4keD0wN
Member
This all sounds pretty good for xbox tbh. Being 1/3 to 1/2 as sucessful as Playstation is amazing, who wouldnt want that? I am jealous as fuck.
One can really make billions and still be called a failiure.
damn, i wouldnt want to be your kid.
feynoob
Banned
Because those studios have yet to make Xbox exclusive game.
So far there is redfall and starfield this year.
Other studios have yet to release their games on Xbox (machine games, obsidian, ninja theory).
DryvBy
Member
While it seems that way, Sony needs competition too. Microsoft just isn't competition. Nintendo could step in but lol. PC could easily compete if non-PC people enjoyed PC gaming and they could get their ports to run well.
I want MS to continue but fix their management. Phil need needs to go. He's absolutely trash.
I want MS to continue but fix their management. Phil need needs to go. He's absolutely trash.
That is not close to reality.
In that bet by Phil Spencer, the XBOX console continued to be in a fundamental place in the strategy and there you have the strong investment in Hardware with XBO S, XBO X, XSS and XSX...... and already announced that there will be a new launch of hardware.
Among other things because, whether you accept it or not, the XBOX console is the main driver of income, subscriptions and microtransactions. Xbox console is even the main advertising medium for Gamepass.
According to your argument, doing without hardware would save the losses of its manufacture... but you forget about the income it generates and channels.
Cloud gaming is still in its infancy and its effect on revenue is negligible. When is cloud gaming a real competitor vs physical hardware? So not only will the XBOX console be in danger...... the competing consoles will also be in danger.
MS is in a situation where it is able to support Xbox console, PC and cloud gaming at the same time even though its object is to sell software. At a time when even Steam launches its own hardware with little hope of being successful...
To say that XBOX console that has a minimum base of ~50 million users in the worst situation is expendable in the short term is
From here, I repeat again and I'm sorry but it's my feeling. The thread is an excuse to manifest a desire and a narrative......
KaiserBecks
Member
Please tell us where Phil touched you.
Nautilus
Banned
Nintendo always stopped any of the big three from doing anything they want. MS was always just an asterisk, never really a factor(Outside of the 7th gen, the only time they were truly competitive).
I think it may happen once someone else enters the ring, no way Microsoft folds xbox and leaves Sony to just do what they want. That would be awful for all of us. Need someone like apple to jump in the ring first.
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