Support NeoGAF

[Coulomb_Barrier]

The guy has just overseen a completely barren 2022 for Xbox Series, and a few days ago delivered probably the worst big first party exclusive of modern times in Redfall, 59 Metacritic and dropping fast, yet he has the temerity to do another press run and spout the same lines...he should be in hiding from embarrassment.

 

[Bragr]

I'll sum it up real quick for you.

If Xbox made great games consistently, things would be different. I promise you. Even without GamePass.

The things that matters most is the software. Always.

How any of you forget that.... is mind blowing to me.

Of course it would. But it's not enough. Even if they offered better games, without Game Pass, they would likely be done by now.

 

[SlimySnake]

Your post just made me feel nostalgic for this generation. Yeah by the time we got to 2009 PS3 was already turning things around. But once that Uncharted 2 gameplay trailer from their E3 conference was shown, that was the moment that honestly, changed Playstation forever to this day and elevated Sony's production values to what we know nowadays.

There's also the feeling i have that we barely know what Playstation studios are working on besides Insomniac. I feel like this PS showcase is going to highlight even more the gap that there is between Playstation and Xbox. I'm not even counting with rumored deals like Persona 6 being supposedly exclusive, or confirmed 3rd party exclusives like FFVII Rebirth, or console exclusives like Silent Hill 2 Remake, or marketing deals for games like Avatar, Fifa, COD that's still in place for at least 1 or 2 more years, etc.

It's weird to witness Phil complaining about these deals that Sony and Nintendo do. Like...why not do that as well? MS can clearly afford them, lmao. Sony has this industry on their pocket because MS allowed them to. And the fact they will keep getting distracted by the Activision deal will not help them for the rest of the year.

No one is stopping MS to branch out and do what Sony did with something like Genshin Impact. There was an article talking about how they were looking for their own Genshin Impact...meanwhile Sony was already securing the console exclusivity of miHoYo's next project: Honkai: Star Rail. MS are always a step behind. It's not even funny.

Yeah, Phil crying about Sony taking FF7 and FF16 is bizarre considering he had $80 billion to spend on zenimax and activision. I highly doubt sony paid anything over $100 million max. Maybe $200 million if that GOW budget is to be believed. sony probably said we will fund the game's development, just keep it off of xbox.

But they used to do that in the PS2 era and Peter Moore made it a mission to get GTA and FF on Xbox on day one. I remember the tattoos. He did that while signing Epic to do Gears, Bioware to make Mass Effect and Take2 to make Bioshock. He must have had to outbid sony but he did it while producing first party games and third party exclusives.

All Phil does is talk. I have been hearing about how he goes to Japan to turn things around and then 2 years later we find out that Nintendo contracted Platinum Games for Astral Chain and Bayonetta 3. Sony contracted Team Ninja to make Rise of Ronin, made a deal with konami to have Bloober to do Silent Hill, and Kojima to do Death Stranding 2. Like wtf were you doing in Japan then?

 

[64bitmodels]

Sony has this industry on their pocket because MS allowed them to.

And judging by the man who's running the show its clear to see why. A person with no taste who has no idea what gamers in the 2020s want.

He doesn't make deals because he has no idea what deals to make. Any time he approaches a company instead of being aggressive he settles for old games that have sold units already and don't need to be on gp. Getting persona 5 which was on PS only for 6 dreadful fucking years.
It'd such an obvious thing to moneyhat the next final fantasy, or hitman, or hogwarts, or dead space, re4, etc. If peter moore were in charge elden ring would have been a 1 year timed exclusive.
Phil isnt doing it becaude he doesnt know thats what gamers want. Hes too caught up in his subscription service obsession to see whats actuslly selling and generating buzz.
Literally anyone else running Xbox and everyone here wouldn't be shitting on it. It's all this incompetent dudes fault, let him go

 

[Darsxx82]

There’s the trademark persecution complex I’ve come to expect from Xbox zealots. Sony isn’t holding you down no matter how much you want to believe otherwise. You’re not a victim of persecution, you’re a victim of being scammed by Microsoft’s leadership.

That is, XBOX users have to blame MS for SONY taking 3rd party games from them?
Well, maybe then we blame Sony for the fact that MS has removed Bethesda-Zenimax games from PS5 users

No, he is NOT right. In my 40+ years of gaming, I can link every single console I’ve bought to GAMES that made me want to buy the system those games were on. Whether it was the SNES or Genesis, PSX or Saturn, Xbox or GameCube, and so on.

I think you have a problem interpreting what Phil Spencer says.

He's not saying that games don't sell consoles, LOL. He says that for XBOX it's not enough to offer great first party games ......TO BEAT PS5 IN SALES.

Logically, great games are going to attract new users, but you give the examples yourself... Saturn, N64, Dreamcast, Gamecube, Xbox etc... They all had great games and yet they were failures in sales compared to PS

Games move consoles. Microsoft should know this from the first half of the X360 era. Coming out and saying great games won’t sell consoles is capitulation, admitting that they can’t create real system sellers anymore.

X360PS3 gen was an exception in many ways and still only served to be third in sales.

Yes, MS made some big hits on the 360 launch, but Sony still made some big botches.

That is not exactly what is happening now and also we come from a generation disaster for XBOX.

As P. Spencer says, it takes a lot more than great first party games for XBOX to sell more consoles than PS.

MS has 23 Studios and 30+ projects in development without counting 2nd party deals. You are going to have exclusive games to enjoy for sure and that will attract new users like you (hardcore gamer)..... That's one thing and another than just having great first party games XBOX can beat PS in a market casual mayoritary.

 

[Banjo64]

Either blame sony or brag about flight simulator again

live from darkmage's bedroom:

 

[Bragr]

It means pulling in the reins so you actually get something good from your developers instead of stroking the ego of devs

That, I actually agree with. I'm not a big fan of the infamous "Xbox freedom" that Xbox gives their devs.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Like wtf were you doing in Japan then?

bargin bin gamepass deals

 

[Captain Toad]

Even if they made the new "The Last of Us" or the new Witcher, things wouldn't change that much.

It would absolutely change. Will one great game skyrocket Xbox ahead of PlayStation and Nintendo? No, of course not. But, it would move them closer with each quality game.

They don't need A good AAA game. They need consistent good AAA games. If they do that, even for a relatively short period of time, they absolutely can sell on the level of their competitors.

 

[Needlecrash]

Honestly, it was sad hearing this from Phil. I bought a 360 before I even had my PS3. The early years of the 360 was insane. GTA4, Halo 3, Forza and so forth. Those quality titles moved systems and product and it paid off. Sony got off to a rocky start but caught up a little later.

Some time later, Sony exclusives was just blowing it out of the water. Ghosts of Tsushima, The Last of Us, Gran Turismo and so forth.

With the missteps of The Master Chief Collection, Redfall, etc, I feel like a better strategy is needed. Microsoft has the resources honestly. They just need a better vision and strategy.

 

[Kacho]

Yeah, Phil crying about Sony taking FF7 and FF16 is bizarre considering he had $80 billion to spend on zenimax and activision. I highly doubt sony paid anything over $100 million max. Maybe $200 million if that GOW budget is to be believed. sony probably said we will fund the game's development, just keep it off of xbox.

But they used to do that in the PS2 era and Peter Moore made it a mission to get GTA and FF on Xbox on day one. I remember the tattoos. He did that while signing Epic to do Gears, Bioware to make Mass Effect and Take2 to make Bioshock. He must have had to outbid sony but he did it while producing first party games and third party exclusives.

All Phil does is talk. I have been hearing about how he goes to Japan to turn things around and then 2 years later we find out that Nintendo contracted Platinum Games for Astral Chain and Bayonetta 3. Sony contracted Team Ninja to make Rise of Ronin, made a deal with konami to have Bloober to do Silent Hill, and Kojima to do Death Stranding 2. Like wtf were you doing in Japan then?

He was locking up late ports of Final Fantasy and Yakuza for Game Pass. What a tremendous strategy.

 

[Flutta]

People love to bring up when he said they view apple as competition, not Sony, as the need arises. He's literally just saying that they "are not in the business of out-consoling Sony or out-consoling Nintendo". It's the same thing.

I'm not seeing the "he admitted defeat" that the OP used in any context at all.

Wonder why.... I mean it doesn't help when MS exec are screaming from the rooftops when they win a month in NDP against Sony and Nintendo

MS admitted defeat when they said "Apple and Amazon are our main competitors not Sony". Your would've had a point if Apple and Amazon where competing in the console market like MS, which they're not.

 

[Die Namek Ability]

The GameCube looked like a toy at a time when the other consoles were trying to appeal to the teens/older crowd. I think that definitely did not help Nintendo.

and those weird as small disks

 

[HofT]

So, what's the point in buying an xbox?

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

That, I actually agree with. I'm not a big fan of the infamous "Xbox freedom" that Xbox gives their devs.

Yup. All i'm saying. The quality of the devs aren't the issue.

Everwild as another example. A game that still has no real vision for all we know and the devs are still just pissing around doing whatever the hell they want with no one to tell them otherwise

 

[RGB'D]

What's he going to say? I promise I'm going to fix things? How would that land? He talked about integrating projects better with Xbox. What if they announce that Hellblade 2 comes out in 2023 and both Starfield and Hellblade 2 are killer apps? Then this whole discourse looks a bit silly. I think the Xbox vision started in 2018 with the acquisition spree and if none of that bears any fruit by the end of 2024, it's time for a change.

I missed the part in his interview where he’s saying he’s gonna fix things. He’s not doing anything as per usual, just admitting he created a shit show with no games and even going as far as saying it doesn’t even matter if the Xbox games will turn out great . Please let this man get some nice long holiday to contemplate and put some actual leader in charge.

 

[DJ12]

Of course it would. But it's not enough. Even if they offered better games, without Game Pass, they would likely be done by now.

Gamepass is a service, no one asked for and no one wanted.

If Dad wasn't subsidizing it, you'd be paying 20~30 a month to cover the lost sales and fees to other publishers.

It's a pathetic attempt to lure people from PlayStation with "free" games, MS overplayed their hand to a massive extent.

Fans of the brand love it I'll grant you as it offers what they want for less then they'd usually pay for it (having said that it's still only 30% of xbox gamers that bother with it), others couldn't give a monkeys as there's nothing compelling on there.

 

[Gamerguy84]

Damn.

F

 

[IDKFA]

It wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft just gave up on the console hardware and focused on just software. It would be far more profitable for them.

However, on the other hand this would mean less competition in the console space, which would be detrimental to consumers.

 

[AlphaDump]

Criticism aside, at this point I just hope Phil is okay mentally. I cannot imagine how he must feel after the amount of shit he has eaten in the past few weeks.

 

[staticshock]

We don't know what he was responsible for, but if you mean games that came out under his watch, Forza, Halo, Hi-Fi Rush, Gears, Psychonauts 2, Hellblade, Cuphead (initially), I mean, there is a lot, just look up a list if you're curious.

Did you even read what I wrote?

I said NEW or NEWISH game. Not the same tired franchise over and over again. Not Gears, Forza, Halo.

Hi-Fi Rush, Psychonauts 2, Cuphead..seriously? You consider those high quality system seller games? Really? That's the game to counter Spiderman, Horizon, GOW, Days Gone, Infamous Second Son, The last of us 2, ghost of tsushima?
Don't you now see why Xbox lost momentum?

Also Hellblade 1 had nothing to do with MS (that's pre-acquisition).

The only thing i forgot was I guess Sea of Theives.

 

[RGB'D]

He's not saying great games don't matter.

He's saying great games are not gonna be enough to turn it around for Xbox, that they need to offer other things. Like Game Pass AND great games.

They are still gonna make great games. They still believe great games will help their platform. They are still all about making great games. Obviously. lol.

How is it possible to believe that he' somehow doesn't care about great games, it's the best thing they could possibly do for business in every regard.

Gaf really jumped off the deep end with this one.

 

[Captain Toad]

What's he going to say?

ANYTHING other than releasing good games isn't going to help us at this point.

 

[SidViscous]

He's 100% right, but that doesn't mean they don't need to put a priority on making great games. They need to have great games just to maintain where they are now, next-gen will be a bloodbath if they never delivered their promises this gen.

 

[Flutta]

So, what's the point in buying an xbox?

To rent games for cheap?

 

[NickFire]

Second because MS loses 30% of the sales of 3rd party games on console.

10 copies * $70 = 700

(20 copies * $70) * 70% = 980.

 

[Kacho]

Criticism aside, at this point I just hope Phil is okay mentally. I cannot imagine how he must feel after the amount of shit he has eaten in the past few weeks.

He didn’t look too thrilled at the TGAs in December either.

 

[fart town usa]

It's fine if they're viewed as dumb, but even dumber to think absolutely nothing could go wrong.
All we can do now is just sit and watch what unfolds.
I will remain pessimistic until noted otherwise.

Dog. The PS platform is fine, as is the Xbox platform. Both get broken, buggy games, both have quality games. PS has more 3rd party titles/VR, those extras may or may not appeal to everyone. I feel like both platforms are infinitely better and future proofed compared to whatever the hell Nintendo is doing with their online system.

My point is, things are more or less the same between Sony and MS save for subtle differences in game selection. Sony isn't going to dick the masses over and if they do, don't buy their games or pay for the premium PS+ tier, not all third parties are selling games for $70 either. The future doesn't have to be so bleak. I'm of the mindset that we have more options that we've ever had in the history of gaming and things are baller. Just gotta explore outside the AAA sector.

 

[Captain Toad]

We don't know what he was responsible for, but if you mean games that came out under his watch, Forza, Halo, Hi-Fi Rush, Gears, Psychonauts 2, Hellblade, Cuphead (initially), I mean, there is a lot, just look up a list if you're curious.

Microsoft isn't responsible for Redfall, but they're somehow responsible for Cuphead, a multi-platform indie that they had timed-exclusitivity for?

Cuphead is fantastic. It's just not an Xbox game.

 

[MR ARCADE FOREVER]

Phil Wimpy Banana Spencer.
Nice guys finish last
Look at Jim Ryan

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

Thanks for posting this, as in most things context is important and like most things the gotcha lines are posted first. This is an excellent assessment of the state of Xbox and shows a very nuanced understanding of the state of the industry. Phil is choosing a different route forward and I think given the strengths of Microsoft this path makes sense. At the end of the day Microsoft needs to build a business that make sense and is profitable in the context of the company and their business is services.

I don't think Gamepass or the way they run their business is sustainable for any normal company. Gamepass is not making anywhere near the profits you'd expect given the snippets and info we have gleamed, and selling two console's at a loss 2 years after releasing them is terrible business.

 

[Tiago Rodrigues]

Yeah, Phil crying about Sony taking FF7 and FF16 is bizarre considering he had $80 billion to spend on zenimax and activision. I highly doubt sony paid anything over $100 million max. Maybe $200 million if that GOW budget is to be believed. sony probably said we will fund the game's development, just keep it off of xbox.

But they used to do that in the PS2 era and Peter Moore made it a mission to get GTA and FF on Xbox on day one. I remember the tattoos. He did that while signing Epic to do Gears, Bioware to make Mass Effect and Take2 to make Bioshock. He must have had to outbid sony but he did it while producing first party games and third party exclusives.

All Phil does is talk. I have been hearing about how he goes to Japan to turn things around and then 2 years later we find out that Nintendo contracted Platinum Games for Astral Chain and Bayonetta 3. Sony contracted Team Ninja to make Rise of Ronin, made a deal with konami to have Bloober to do Silent Hill, and Kojima to do Death Stranding 2. Like wtf were you doing in Japan then?

Get those old Persona games on gamepass and promote those old games more than some new first party titles apparently

 

[Bragr]

Gamepass is a service, no one asked for and no one wanted.

If Dad wasn't subsidizing it, you'd be paying 20~30 a month to cover the lost sales and fees to other publishers.

It's a pathetic attempt to lure people from PlayStation with "free" games, MS overplayed their hand to a massive extent.

Fans of the brand love it I'll grant you as it offers what they want for less then they'd usually pay for it (having said that it's still only 30% of xbox gamers that bother with it), others couldn't give a monkeys as there's nothing compelling on there.

There is nothing compelling on Game Pass? have you ever used Game Pass?

 

[aries_71]

It wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft just gave up on the console hardware and focused on just software. It would be far more profitable for them.

However, on the other hand this would mean less competition in the console space, which would be detrimental to consumers.

That is going to happen, sooner or later. My bet is that MS will launch an additional generation console at most.

 

[Bragr]

Gaf really jumped off the deep end with this one.

Thanks for the unbiased commentary, kratos.

 

[ComputerBlue]

Criticism aside, at this point I just hope Phil is okay mentally. I cannot imagine how he must feel after the amount of shit he has eaten in the past few weeks.

 

[Banjo64]

Microsoft isn't responsible for Redfall, but they're somehow responsible for Cuphead, a multi-platform indie that they had timed-exclusitivity for?

Cuphead is fantastic. It's just not an Xbox game.

Neither is Ori to compound Phil's misery

 

[Bragr]

Did you even read what I wrote?

I said NEW or NEWISH game. Not the same tired franchise over and over again. Not Gears, Forza, Halo.

Hi-Fi Rush, Psychonauts 2, Cuphead..seriously? You consider those high quality system seller games? Really? That's the game to counter Spiderman, Horizon, GOW, Days Gone, Infamous Second Son, The last of us 2, ghost of tsushima?
Don't you now see why Xbox lost momentum?

Also Hellblade 1 had nothing to do with MS (that's pre-acquisition).

The only thing i forgot was I guess Sea of Theives.

Did you read what I wrote? Because you are proving my initial point, that they aren't able to deliver big exclusives like the competition. That's why he said what he said, that's why they got Game Pass.

That doesn't mean they aren't trying. You don't just conjure up a triple-A with a 95 on Metacritic. They don't have the staple to do it, Starfield is their best bet.

 

[Captain Toad]

Neither is Ori to compound Phil's misery

Well, Microsoft owns Ori, just not Moon Studio. They just chose to sell those games on Switch as well.

 

[VAVA Mk2]

They don’t own the IPs and studios forever though.

No...but signing tons of third party exclusivity agreements/marketing agreements and renewing when they expire has a serious impact on competitors as does acquisition of publishers and a large number of studios.

 

[64bitmodels]

Hi-Fi Rush, Psychonauts 2, Cuphead..seriously? You consider those high quality system seller games?

To be fair those are great games. Nintendo does get away with selling games of roughly the same caliber.

 

[DJ12]

There is nothing compelling on Game Pass? have you ever used Game Pass?

Yes, I have a free sub for a year through my internet provider.

You are an xbox gamer, so you have obviously completely missed the point in.

As a PC and PlayStation gamer, there's absolutely NOTHING there that I would buy a Series X to play.

I barely have anything installed as it is. just some Lucasarts remakes that I'm yet to play, and hot wheels for my lad to play.

 

[Banjo64]

Well, Microsoft owns Ori, just not Moon Studio. They just chose to sell those games on Switch as well.

it's still a moon game, like DK64 isn't a ninty game.

 

[Darsxx82]

10 copies * $70 = 700

(20 copies * $70) * 70% = 980.

?? You have not understood. I'm talking about MS losing 30% of every 3rd party game sells on XSeries. That's a big part of MS's revenue in the XBOX business and I certainly don't think they're willing to lose it in the short, medium or long term.

And no, your accounts are more than speculative. No one assures you that an XBOX first party game will sell more on PS than the same % that it stops selling on the XBOX console where you also do not lose that extra 30%.

 

[zomboden]

So, what's the point in buying an xbox?

If you have access to a decent gaming PC and or don't mind only playing game pass/first party games on xCloud. Then there is no point.

Looks like the future of Xbox is third party games as a service/subscription model. I don't see them continuing to spend money making and designing consoles if they don't think people will buy them.

 

[BattleScar]

What is the value of a gaming subscription service, if there's no great games on it? What's the point?
"We can't take market share from Sony and Nintendo by making great games"

Why the fuck would you be making great games for prospective customers? Make great games for your ACTUAL consumers. Maybe that way they'd be inclined to stick around.

 

[Die Namek Ability]

I think you are projecting.

if we imagine a scenario where both systems had the exact same games, no exclusives, only the multiplatform games and nothing else...
why would you buy a PS3 over an Xbox 360? because it was worse in almost every way.

there was 1 and only 1 objective advantage the PS3 had, and that was free online multiplayer.
Yet.. the PS3 sold more in the end.

and it wasn't because of exclusives either, Gears of War 1 sold more copies than almost any PS3 exclusive, and isn't even the best selling 360 exclusive game, with Halo 3 selling twice as many copies and Gears 2 also topping it.

The PS3 sold as many systems as it did simply because of the brand.

That certainly would be convenient for your argument lol. Kinda sound like Phil now

 

[coffinbirth]

Yeah, Phil crying about Sony taking FF7 and FF16 is bizarre considering he had $80 billion to spend on zenimax and activision. I highly doubt sony paid anything over $100 million max. Maybe $200 million if that GOW budget is to be believed. sony probably said we will fund the game's development, just keep it off of xbox.

But they used to do that in the PS2 era and Peter Moore made it a mission to get GTA and FF on Xbox on day one. I remember the tattoos. He did that while signing Epic to do Gears, Bioware to make Mass Effect and Take2 to make Bioshock. He must have had to outbid sony but he did it while producing first party games and third party exclusives.

All Phil does is talk. I have been hearing about how he goes to Japan to turn things around and then 2 years later we find out that Nintendo contracted Platinum Games for Astral Chain and Bayonetta 3. Sony contracted Team Ninja to make Rise of Ronin, made a deal with konami to have Bloober to do Silent Hill, and Kojima to do Death Stranding 2. Like wtf were you doing in Japan then?

How quickly we forget...

 

[XXL]

Of course it would. But it's not enough.

It is enough and it's all that matters. For example, the generation that they gained marketshare is generally considered their best output and that would be the Xbox 360 (at the beginning of it).

The fact this company has you thinking like this is disturbing and I don't mean that as an insult. You need to reevaluate your thinking. These guys marketing has you all fucked up.

Best of luck.

 

[Katatonic]

Third parties don't require much if anything from Sony if games don't sell on XBOX.