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PS3 games list & SPE usages
- Thread starter MikeB
- Start date
New insomniac interview:
"Yeah. It was going basically from old techniques where processing was single threading, to multiple parallel processors essentially - there are six, seven SPUs on the PS3. That's a complete paradigm shift. It makes it even harder. At least we have the benefit of being exclusive. We code everything for the PS3 engine."
http://www.videogamer.com/news/staying_up_with_insomniac.html
Back in 2005, well before the 360 and PS3 launched, MikeB wrote with regard to the Cell processor:
"I understand that games developers may not be too fond of the idea of having to learn new ways to write their software. But according to the article at least they do seem to believe that multithreaded software is the way forward."
"Multithreading should not be confused with multitasking. Multithreading is the ability of an operating system to execute different parts of a program, called threads, simultaneously. The programmer must carefully design the program in such a way that all the threads can run at the same time without interfering with each other."
"Multithreading is mainly useful in a multi-CPU environment. One OS which has been designed with multithreading in mind is BeOS. The initial BeBox prototypes had two AT&T Hobbit processors and three DSP's, later version came with two PowerPC 603 processors running clocked at 66MHz or 133Mhz."
"Today single CPU solutions are dominant, thus multithreading isn't really that much of a benefit. Software developers who mainly write for single processor solutions don't like doing extra (time=money) work to get the most out of multithreading for other platforms. Games consoles usually only run one software title at a time, however a multi-media operating system generally executes many different programs which may all have various different tasks at a time."
"It will probably take some time before developers manage to get the most out of this platform, as has for example also been the case with the classic Amiga chipsets. The early Amiga games don't compare well to the complex graphics used by for instance game like Elfmania or Lion Heart."
"Yeah. It was going basically from old techniques where processing was single threading, to multiple parallel processors essentially - there are six, seven SPUs on the PS3. That's a complete paradigm shift. It makes it even harder. At least we have the benefit of being exclusive. We code everything for the PS3 engine."
http://www.videogamer.com/news/staying_up_with_insomniac.html
Back in 2005, well before the 360 and PS3 launched, MikeB wrote with regard to the Cell processor:
"I understand that games developers may not be too fond of the idea of having to learn new ways to write their software. But according to the article at least they do seem to believe that multithreaded software is the way forward."
"Multithreading should not be confused with multitasking. Multithreading is the ability of an operating system to execute different parts of a program, called threads, simultaneously. The programmer must carefully design the program in such a way that all the threads can run at the same time without interfering with each other."
"Multithreading is mainly useful in a multi-CPU environment. One OS which has been designed with multithreading in mind is BeOS. The initial BeBox prototypes had two AT&T Hobbit processors and three DSP's, later version came with two PowerPC 603 processors running clocked at 66MHz or 133Mhz."
"Today single CPU solutions are dominant, thus multithreading isn't really that much of a benefit. Software developers who mainly write for single processor solutions don't like doing extra (time=money) work to get the most out of multithreading for other platforms. Games consoles usually only run one software title at a time, however a multi-media operating system generally executes many different programs which may all have various different tasks at a time."
"It will probably take some time before developers manage to get the most out of this platform, as has for example also been the case with the classic Amiga chipsets. The early Amiga games don't compare well to the complex graphics used by for instance game like Elfmania or Lion Heart."
Interesting detail regarding The Saboteur on the PS3:
"We use the SPUs on the PS3 to do a full screen FSAA filter."
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2009/11/developer-diary-3-the-saboteur-for-ps3
"We use the SPUs on the PS3 to do a full screen FSAA filter."
http://blog.us.playstation.com/2009/11/developer-diary-3-the-saboteur-for-ps3
SamBa said:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=18533180&postcount=319
Zeenbor: "Both PC and PS3 ports were outsourced and both companies did great jobs. The PS3 version actually has better image quality than the Xbox version (anti-aliasing was done on the SPUs), but the Xbox version has more vibrant colors. There are other minor differences specific to the PS3 version, but it's pretty much on par."
I wonder why the Xbox has more vibrant colors though...?
ymmv said:
Color output accuracy is more important on the PS3 as Sony tries to double the PS3 as one of the best BR players. Also AA results the whole or parts of the output image to appear softer. Too much AA results (more than intended) in too blurred and soft images. You can of course play with your HDTV settings to exaggerate the color contrast some more and/or change the brightness if so preferred.
Apparently the US military is also using the PS3:
'In June, the Department of Defense awarded $2 million for this research under its High Performance Computing Modernization Program, the DOD's arm for supercomputing research, development, test, and evaluation. That follows an initial investment of $118,000 on the original cluster.
Before it won the research award in 2008, the information directorate's advanced computing architectures team considered alternative configurations and the possibility of a hybrid system, but found multicore Xeon servers slower and more expensive than PS3s, and GPGPUs to be slower in some important types of calculations.'
http://www.informationweek.com/news/software/linux/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=221900487
Meanwhile it was also announced that IBM halted the until now unannounced PowerXCell32 project and is diverting the Cell technology towards other project(s).
'In June, the Department of Defense awarded $2 million for this research under its High Performance Computing Modernization Program, the DOD's arm for supercomputing research, development, test, and evaluation. That follows an initial investment of $118,000 on the original cluster.
Before it won the research award in 2008, the information directorate's advanced computing architectures team considered alternative configurations and the possibility of a hybrid system, but found multicore Xeon servers slower and more expensive than PS3s, and GPGPUs to be slower in some important types of calculations.'
http://www.informationweek.com/news/software/linux/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=221900487
Meanwhile it was also announced that IBM halted the until now unannounced PowerXCell32 project and is diverting the Cell technology towards other project(s).
Sorta OT, but there's an article here on various agencies' usage of it:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/12/04/BU731AV5TM.DTL&type=business
^^ The Airforce Research Lab's PS3 cluster
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/12/04/BU731AV5TM.DTL&type=business
^^ The Airforce Research Lab's PS3 cluster
SamBa said:
More details at Eurogamer:
"The PS3 rendition of Pandemic's The Saboteur is different though. It's special. It's trying something new that's never been seen before on console, or indeed PC, and its results are terrific. In a best-case scenario you get edge-smoothing that is beyond the effect of 16x multi-sampling anti-aliasing, effectively delivering an effect better than the capabilities of high-end GPUs without crippling performance."
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-saboteur-aa-blog-entry
Sounds like a very interesting option on the PS3, so other developers may want to check out their AA method.
Zombie James
Banned
Nice to see a 3rd party pushing something new instead of it always coming from 1st parties.
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
So using the SPU they now have an even potentially better AA option to use, effectively pushing beyond the standard edge-smoothing 4xAA techniques? Spread the love!
I mean damn, that's pretty f'n nice IQ there.
I mean damn, that's pretty f'n nice IQ there.
Zombie James
Banned
Tiduz said:
Someone on Beyond3D (I think) said it's implemented in Sony's Pyre engine. Plus, i've seen a PDF detailing the technique, it's not really a secret thing.
edit: The engine is Phyre, no Pyre (d'oh!)
RavenFox said:
It makes sense, as cryptography is inherently parallelizable.
You'll enjoy this read: http://www.eseidel.com/dev/current/bitslice/HonorsPaper.pdf
Just google cryptography parallel and you'll get tons of info.
_leech_ said:
Here's a blog post that was referenced as well: http://www.realtimerendering.com/blog/morphological-antialiasing/
MLAA is the real deal
Schrade
Member
That's pretty damn impressive and I totally agree it's nice to see this being used by a third party._leech_ said:
Are there videos of this in action? I'd rather see it in motion with a video player so I can apply the proper color levels to the image. (People almost always have settings incorrectly for PS3 captures)
I think one of the better sites for getting PS3 color levels correctly on their captures is Ruliweb.
Lion Heart
Banned
Afrikan said:
I want to play the game just to see the image quality. So I can see where you are coming from.
mclaren777
Member
Pandemic develops a new form of edge-smoothing that produces great results and then it gets shut down by EA?_leech_ said:
What sad times we live in.
WickedLaharl
Member
never stop fighting the good fight MikeB SamBa!
Lion Heart
Banned
spons said:
Thats not because of MLAA, I guess thats just the typical lower res textures on PS3 ports.
MWS Natural
Member
WickedLaharl said:
Holyshit...looking at his post history he just started right where he left off :lol
Liabe Brave
Member
A lot of that is due to the 360's usual cranked-up contrast. If you spike the contrast high enough on the PS3 side, most of your missing "detail" (i.e., noise) comes back. I don't have the technical background to say whether MLAA might be responsible for the small remaining differences, but since I have eyes I can tell you that the blur is at least far less than if you used quincunx to get this effect.spons said:
spons said:
I wouldn't go that far, but the texture color depth seems to have been cut a bit. Not resolution though. Honestly neither look right to be. The 360 textures look a little too contrasted considering the resolution, and the PS3 one, whilst being technically inferior, at least doesn't look as unnatural. Something in between the blasted coloring of the 360 and the muted PS3 look would be preferable.
infinityBCRT
Member
I love what Pandemic did on the PS3 with limiting the AA to the edges. I do wonder why Halo 3 couldn't use a technique like this-- they already have an edge detection algorithm working (which you can see when you use your VISR on ODST)-- if they just AA'd around those edges it would look A LOT better.
Force Unleashed also has an interesting AA technique-- they only apply it to characters though, the backgrounds don't have any AA on them, but it is an effective technique because the characters are what you are focusing on most of the time.
Between the techniques that those two games employ, and what we've seen with IQ from games like Uncharted 2 and AC2 (360 version-- not sure how the PS3 AA holds up), it will be disappointing if any 2010 games do not include AA.
Force Unleashed also has an interesting AA technique-- they only apply it to characters though, the backgrounds don't have any AA on them, but it is an effective technique because the characters are what you are focusing on most of the time.
Between the techniques that those two games employ, and what we've seen with IQ from games like Uncharted 2 and AC2 (360 version-- not sure how the PS3 AA holds up), it will be disappointing if any 2010 games do not include AA.
spons said:
That looks more like color/contrast differences to me. If you read the info on the game, they note it ... and it's actually not clear whether it's even related to the MLAA.
If anything, Digital Foundry mentioned that one of the advantages of this is that it doesn't blur textures ala quincunx. Based on some of the info I've read on the concept, it sounds like the lightmaps are altered? That may be why the contrast is softened (well, assuming it's beyond the usual contrast differences between the systems and their screen grabs).
God of War 3
"Players will battle in detailed and unique 3D worlds lit by thousands of dynamic lights and textures with quadruple the resolution, which allows for realistic muscle striations, detailed facial expressions, and new heightened levels of brutality and gore."
"The dynamic lighting solution employed in GOW III is only feasible through the computing power provided by the Cell SPUs. For example, using the High Dynamic Range Lighting (HDRL) technology, the camera when using Kratos sightline - will emulate the human retina, causing players to feel a sharp brightness when Kratos exits a dark area and enters a sunlit area, similar to how the human eye would need to adjust."
http://worthplaying.com/article/2009/12/21/news/71137/
"Players will battle in detailed and unique 3D worlds lit by thousands of dynamic lights and textures with quadruple the resolution, which allows for realistic muscle striations, detailed facial expressions, and new heightened levels of brutality and gore."
"The dynamic lighting solution employed in GOW III is only feasible through the computing power provided by the Cell SPUs. For example, using the High Dynamic Range Lighting (HDRL) technology, the camera when using Kratos sightline - will emulate the human retina, causing players to feel a sharp brightness when Kratos exits a dark area and enters a sunlit area, similar to how the human eye would need to adjust."
http://worthplaying.com/article/2009/12/21/news/71137/
More on God of War III development (older presentation):
http://www.tilander.org/aurora/comp/gdc2009_Tilander_Filippov_SPU.pdf
http://www.tilander.org/aurora/comp/gdc2009_Tilander_Filippov_SPU.pdf
qirex99 said:
Halo 3 is a very different game, but it's rendering in 640p actually.
Tiling is a major issue on the 360 when implementing impressive HDR like in for example Uncharted 2. God of War 3 like Uncharted 2 and unlike Halo 3, should render not only in high definition but also include anti-aliasing while keeping a steadier framerate.
The most impressive technical aspects of God of War 3 seem to be the thousands of dynamic light sources and physics (like a level taking place on a moving Titan's back with many hundreds of animated trees).
Zedsdeadbaby
Banned
qirex99 said:
Like any other game with HDR ever to be honest. The whole 'your eyes adjust to light from dark' tack is old and tired. It's been done in tons of games and I'm surprised to see it's still a bullet point in modern games. It first appeared in games like Farcry, 6 years ago, and has been common ever since. The most famous example of this is Half Life 2: Lost Coast which was out 5 years ago.
It really isn't a big deal. I think even Resistance did the same thing, and that's a launch game. Strange to have this as a talking point, and I find the scale of the environments to be far more impressive than relatively old tech but there you go!
Games like Killzone 2 (with its complete lack of it) prove that HDR as a general implemention is no big deal and completely overrated anyway. And apparently they may be getting rid of it in Reach.
Naughty Dog comment on the PS3's processing power:
"G4: How comfortable are you now developing on the PS3? Are you starting to get an itch for new hardware?
EW: Absolutely the opposite. We're pretty comfortable with the PS3, and we made a very big advancement between the first game and the second game, we're really tapping into the Cell processor, but there's more there. The first game, it was idle about 70% of the time, which we rectified for the sequel, and now it's at least busy 100% of the time, but it's still not fully-optimized code. I mean, in order to get to that 100%, it was more about making sure the pipeline was filled, and we weren't running into one of the processors becoming idle because there wasn't a job ready for it. But now we have to go into all of those routines and optimize them so we that can get even more done using that Cell processor. It really feels that sometimes it's this bottomless pit of processing power, you find the right kind of job for it and it can just churn through those things so fast, which really helps with a lot of our rendering and post-processing effects.
So yes, we're getting comfortable. No, we're not itching for new hardware. I would love to keep working on the PlayStation [3] for 5 or 6 more years...I think there's still a lot to get out of it. We're not really feeling limited by the hardware, it's more about the hours of the day and how quickly we want to get the next game out."
http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/7...ls-Reflects-on-Uncharted-2-Among-Thieves.html
"G4: How comfortable are you now developing on the PS3? Are you starting to get an itch for new hardware?
EW: Absolutely the opposite. We're pretty comfortable with the PS3, and we made a very big advancement between the first game and the second game, we're really tapping into the Cell processor, but there's more there. The first game, it was idle about 70% of the time, which we rectified for the sequel, and now it's at least busy 100% of the time, but it's still not fully-optimized code. I mean, in order to get to that 100%, it was more about making sure the pipeline was filled, and we weren't running into one of the processors becoming idle because there wasn't a job ready for it. But now we have to go into all of those routines and optimize them so we that can get even more done using that Cell processor. It really feels that sometimes it's this bottomless pit of processing power, you find the right kind of job for it and it can just churn through those things so fast, which really helps with a lot of our rendering and post-processing effects.
So yes, we're getting comfortable. No, we're not itching for new hardware. I would love to keep working on the PlayStation [3] for 5 or 6 more years...I think there's still a lot to get out of it. We're not really feeling limited by the hardware, it's more about the hours of the day and how quickly we want to get the next game out."
http://g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/7...ls-Reflects-on-Uncharted-2-Among-Thieves.html
NemesisPrime
Banned
Zedsdeadbaby said:
QFT
But then again HDR is a much broader "technique" used to simulate the much, much bigger "dynamic" range of the human eye. It mainly is something out of photography and is often misused in gaming. Basically you can file it in the trendy buzzword category when it comes to gaming.
Lol
Unknown One
Member
I like how some Devs apply HDR but really a lot of them are really try to blind me or something.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
NemesisPrime said:
I think the following image, I will just use the URL, tells quite a bit about HDR in photography and in several games...
.http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7391/1244894383293.jpg
(linked to me by Faf)
SolidSnakex
Member
NemesisPrime said:
Yeah, what would that dude know about game development?
Panajev2001a said:I think the following image, I will just use the URL, tells quite a bit about HDR in photography and in several games...
http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/7391/1244894383293.jpg
(liked to me by Faf)
Well actually games are doing it right. Its a photo so a single frame is showing all the dynamic range possible. In motion it wouln't be possible to HDR have to change depending where you look. Like in games..
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Eccocid said:
You are no fun
.