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[Bernd Lauert]

That's actually the biggest benefit considering few people have a VRR ready TV anyway.

We're on a core gaming forum. A lot of people have these TVs, or will acquire them in the near future.

 

[adamsapple]

Halo Infinite reportedly doesn't properly support VRR on Xbox

What a strange oversight.

www.gamepur.com

Beware of strange oversights

Spoiler

And avatar quoters like Eve

Yes, finally good message for a change Franky.

Beware of strange over sights.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

We're on a core gaming forum. A lot of people have these TVs, or will acquire them in the near future.

Most of us already updated our TVs after the HDR overhype. Not doing it again in the near future

 

[carloseduardocd]

Your level of ignorance on the matter is stunning.
This is a feature that is not just for one game. It works on everything.

Remember when Ratchet and Clank added a 40 fps mode? And that reduced latency significantly, improving gameplay.
Now consider that most games lock at 30 or 60 fps, but have a margin that enables them to go to 40-50 fps most of the time. This margin is kept to make sure there are few drops bellow the desired frame rate.
But with VRR we can just remove these frame caps, have higher frame rates, lower input latency and also maintaining a smooth experience with no screen-tearing. And whenever there is a drop in frame rate, we can barely notice it because VRR maintains everything so smooth.
On GT7 we'll probably be able to run the game at 60-80 fps with VRR, with better latency and smoother gameplay.
And even on races where frame rates drop bellow 60 fps, you won't be able to notice it. Because VRR keeps everything consistent.

I know it's hard for someone that never used VRR, to understand how important this is, but you can believe this is a very important feature. Something that all gamers should have.

The benefits of VRR are clear.

Solid 60fps in a perfect frame pacing is the best scenario, no lags, but VRR helps a lot when we have imperfections.

But sometimes i see people discussing outliers, i.e., a few drops during the entire gameplay. DF needs to show these outliers, it's their job.

For example, I played more than 70 hours in GT7, i notice frame drops in a few moments. VRR helps of course, but it's not a case that i need VRR most of the time. Outliers may be more "acceptable", although it's better with VRR.

Elden Ring yes, i need VRR most of the time

 

[Darsxx82]

First.

To get these very occasional framerate drops… you need to set the race to grid start to make all cars be closer to your screen… in rolling start won’t happen.

Plus you need special conditions (rain, dust, etc) and you indeed need to have almost all cars in your screen… something that doesn’t happen except at the start in a grid view.

And not I’m not lying to you.

GT7 doesn’t need VRR at all.

LOL
I have enough hours of play to be clear that what I say is true.

I repeat, although I see that you are beginning to recognize it. The game in those conditions is far from a solid 60fps. And no, it is not about punctual falls but constants that will bother more or less depending on the person but are real.
And no, it's not just the starts with many cars that occur, you just need to be close to a couple to notice the crashes. Which is still funny because in general in the races you are usually close to the group of cars.

And I already say that I do not mention the replays which is where the solidity of the framerate is far from be accepted.

I mean, you can accept it or not, I don't care, but denying that VRR will benefit the experience and presentation in GT7 vs not using VRR is lying to yourself and wanting to lie to others.

 

[NeoLed]

Holy shit if true. They can't have renamed the subscription names on the system getting ready for those tiers could they?

What game/feature was it btw?

Elden Ring, Overwatch. Another user report GT7.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Most of us already updated our TVs after the HDR overhype. Not doing it again in the near future

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/how-...capable-display-and-use-it-right-now.1631190/

 

[01011001]

but I guess this means no freesync support? only HDMI 2.1 VRR...

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/how-...capable-display-and-use-it-right-now.1631190/

What does that bubble thread have to do with anything?

 

[Rivet]

We're on a core gaming forum. A lot of people have these TVs, or will acquire them in the near future.

Still, you can't ask people to buy a new $1200 TV to be able to play their games on a $500 console properly. That doesn't make sense. VRR was never a real excuse for poor performance, just fanboy ammo.

Framerates always should be very close to locked 60 fps. Or locked 30 when it's really impossible.

 

[Three]

This is way beyond my tech knowledge so its an honest question.

Doesnt a game need unlocked frame rates to take advantage of VRR and most PS games have a locked frame rate?

Yes and no. It depends on the engine. If a game is capped 60fps and is hitting 60fps consistently then VRR is useless. If it isn't a consistent 60fps and dips below the 60fps cap you can still benefit from VRR. Sometimes you won't because it depends on how the game deals with the expected drops.

Can you name me one confirmed game with a 120hz mode that doesn't "support" VRR in digital foundry coverage ?

Please cite exact example and time stamps on their coverage, videos or article, where they SPECIFICALLY say VRR is not supported in a game.

I'll wait.

I just did but you're brushing it off as a bug in the game mentioned. It's not a bug

A framerate cap, v-sync and VRR are different things. Look up what v-sync is and try and explain VRR if your understanding is so great. I'll wait.

 

[winjer]

What that has to do with what you quoted?

And no GT7 doesn’t need VRR at all… GTAV PS5 neither.

You have to understand that v-sync ads latency. By disabling vsync, latencies are reduced and gameplay improves.
But without v-sync, there is screen-tearing. The solution is with VRR. This way we can get the lower latency of not using v-sync and not having the issue with screen-tearing.
On top of that, by having an unlocked frame rate, the game can render at a higher frame rate. This means that latency is reduce even further.

So yes, GT7 will benefit from having VRR. A lot.

 

[FrankWza]

Yes, finally good message for a change Franky.

Beware of strange over sights.

Yup. It’s only been 6 months. Surely they’ll fix this…one day

Halo Infinite's mid-season patch fixes key issues - but there's still a long road ahead

Halo Infinite's early December campaign launch saw the arrival of a massively anticipated title that delivered on many …

www.eurogamer.net

 

[adamsapple]

https://www.neogaf.com/threads/how-...capable-display-and-use-it-right-now.1631190/

Damn. 64% of the sample size on GAF has VRR displays ?

That's actually a LOT higher than I was expecting. I thought maybe within the 20% range max.

Good to see folks are adapting to forward thinking tech. This console generation will last a good 7~8 years at the minimum I reckon. Best to have something that benefits it the whole way through.

 

[DJ12]

According to Sony themselves, you can enable and get improved video quality for games that don't quote unquote support it in their words as well.

They also say enabling it on a game that's unpatched may yield results that make it worse.

I am also 100% sure Sony said this as they already tested the ps5 library and have noticed some games do indeed behave worse with vrr enabled.

Why this might be, checking the history of head to heads, I guess the ps5 tended to enable vsync extensively whereas other platforms didn't.

Can VRR be enabled on every game - yes
Will it work as expected in every game - No

There's no real need to talk down to others when yet again you are selectively quoting yourself to prove a point.

The fact it doesn't work in some instances will lead to different theories being thrown out there to try and understand why some games are going to need a patch.

No need to curtail discussion just because you don't agree.

It obviously needs more in some instances than just being enabled.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Framerates always should be close to 60fps locked. Or 30 fps locked if it's really impossible.

That's why VRR is great, devs are not locked into a few rigid options anymore. They can even target something stupid like 45 fps and it would be perfectly fine with VRR (and vastly better than 30 fps). Future looking bright.

 

[elliot5]

Damn. 64% of the sample size on GAF has VRR displays ?

That's actually a LOT higher than I was expecting. I thought maybe within the 20% range max.

Good to see folks are adapting to forward thinking tech. This console generation will last a good 7~8 years at the minimum I reckon. Best to have something that benefits it the whole way through.

People are lumping in freesync and gsync displays in with VRR in this poll though

 

[adamsapple]

Yup. It’s only been 6 months. Surely they’ll fix this…one day

Halo Infinite's mid-season patch fixes key issues - but there's still a long road ahead

Halo Infinite's early December campaign launch saw the arrival of a massively anticipated title that delivered on many …

www.eurogamer.net

Good thing the feature that is VRR doesn't need game patches universally to work, as stated by Sony themselves then, isn't it

As an added option, you can also choose to apply VRR to PS5 games that don’t support it. This feature may improve video quality for some games.

A framerate cap, v-sync and VRR are different things. Look up what v-sync is and try and explain VRR if your understanding is so great. I'll wait.

No thanks, I'm waiting for you to tell me at least one other 120hz game via DF coverage that that confirmed doesn't support VRR.

Let's get that, with the time stamp and/or article please.

Thanks !

People are lumping in freesync and gsync displays in with VRR in this poll though

That's A-OK, Variable refresh rate encompasses a lot more than just the HDMI 2.1 iteration.

 

[saintjules]

 

[Tripolygon]

What that has to do with what you quoted?

And no GT7 doesn’t need VRR at all… GTAV PS5 neither.

I don’t know what you are arguing about but VRR is a net positive. It syncs display refresh with render output which reduces judder, frame tearing and perceived input lag. Even if a game is 98% perfect, it “fixes” the remaining %2 of problem spots.

**If you have a TV that supports it and don’t mind the other issues it introduces.**

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Damn. 64% of the sample size on GAF has VRR displays ?

That's actually a LOT higher than I was expecting. I thought maybe within the 20% range max.

Good to see folks are adapting to forward thinking tech. This console generation will last a good 7~8 years at the minimum I reckon. Best to have something that benefits it the whole way through.

Yep. 75% either have it or want one soon. GAF is king.

 

[Mr Moose]

but I guess this means no freesync support? only HDMI 2.1 VRR...

My monitor is only FreeSync maybe it'll still detect it

Damn. 64% of the sample size on GAF has VRR displays ?

That's actually a LOT higher than I was expecting. I thought maybe within the 20% range max.

Good to see folks are adapting to forward thinking tech. This console generation will last a good 7~8 years at the minimum I reckon. Best to have something that benefits it the whole way through.

Well, yeah, we have monitors that will likely support a form of VRR, just maybe not HDMI 2.1 VRR.
My TV is fucked at the moment but doesn't support it.

 

[ethomaz]

You have to understand that v-sync ads latency. By disabling vsync, latencies are reduced and gameplay improves.
But without v-sync, there is screen-tearing. The solution is with VRR. This way we can get the lower latency of not using v-sync and not having the issue with screen-tearing.
On top of that, by having an unlocked frame rate, the game can render at a higher frame rate. This means that latency is reduce even further.

So yes, GT7 will benefit from having VRR. A lot.

You don’t disable VSync.
You are suppose to use both enabled by best practices because VRR and VSync do different things.
If not you are not eliminating all screen tearing… VRR doesn’t do that alone.
What the point to use VRR if you will continue having tearing... VSync should ne used with VRR.

And GT7 doesn’t need VRR at all.

 

[Rivet]

That's why VRR is great, devs are not locked into a few rigid options anymore. They can even target something stupid like 45 fps and it would be perfectly fine with VRR (and vastly better than 30 fps). Future looking bright.

Sure but even then, the lost frames still aren't there, you get more input lag and you create other problems on your TV (flickering, loss of black level...). It's not a magic bullet. Higher framerate is always better

And what you say is for next gen anyway. Very few people have VRR screens right now.

That's like saying this PC game runs fine, all you have to do for that is building a $3000 setup with a 3090. If you have to spend that much money, your game just runs bad on PC, people won't care if it runs ok only on 5% of setups.

 

[HTK]

Damn. The whole community is now torn on VRR.

 

[ethomaz]

I don’t know what you are arguing about but VRR is a net positive. It syncs display refresh with render output which reduces judder, frame tearing and perceived input lag. Even if a game is 98% perfect, it “fixes” the remaining %2 of problem spots.

**If you have a TV that supports it and don’t mind the other issues it introduces.**

GT7 runs at 99.8x% 60fps.
Not 98%.

It have a single drop for 20-30ms each minute or even less.

 

[adamsapple]

My monitor is only FreeSync maybe it'll still detect it

I don't think PS5 has system level support to detect freesync. Their PR and article specifically only cite HDMI 2.1 based VRR in all instances.

Well, yeah, we have monitors that will likely support a form of VRR, just maybe not HDMI 2.1 VRR.

Of course I understand that, and that's just as viable of an answer for the poll. I'm using a 4K Freesync monitor for my gaming and it works with both my middle-ish gaming PC and Series X.

 

[Riky]

Now people can stop acting like a Band-Aid on broken games is the greatest thing ever.

Tell that to the people playing Dying Light 2 at up to twice the framerate.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

Sure but even then, the lost frames still aren't there, you get more input lag and you create other problems on your TV (flickering, loss of lack level...). It's not a magic bullet. Higher framerate is always better

VRR doesn't increase input lag afaik. The other problems you mentioned are very rare and don't impact the general experience. Might depend on the TV though.

And what you say is for next gen anyway. Very few people have VRR screens right now.

That's not really true, at least on this forum.

 

[adamsapple]

GT7 runs at 99.8x% 60fps.
Not 98%.

It have a single drop for 20-30ms each minute or even less.

And that somehow negates VRR as a viable feature because.... ?

 

[xion4360]

GT7 runs at 99.8x% 60fps.
Not 98%.

It have a single drop for 20-30ms each minute or even less.

60fps replays drop framerate quite often.

 

[M1chl]

Finally, now we can have some peace here

Good shit Sony

 

[Shai-Tan]

Your level of ignorance on the matter is stunning.
This is a feature that is not just for one game. It works on everything.

Remember when Ratchet and Clank added a 40 fps mode? And that reduced latency significantly, improving gameplay.
Now consider that most games lock at 30 or 60 fps, but have a margin that enables them to go to 40-50 fps most of the time. This margin is kept to make sure there are few drops bellow the desired frame rate.
But with VRR we can just remove these frame caps, have higher frame rates, lower input latency and also maintaining a smooth experience with no screen-tearing. And whenever there is a drop in frame rate, we can barely notice it because VRR maintains everything so smooth.
On GT7 we'll probably be able to run the game at 60-80 fps with VRR, with better latency and smoother gameplay.
And even on races where frame rates drop bellow 60 fps, you won't be able to notice it. Because VRR keeps everything consistent.

I know it's hard for someone that never used VRR, to understand how important this is, but you can believe this is a very important feature. Something that all gamers should have.

What they also don’t realize is even with things like dynamic resolution there can be frametime spikes above target that cause stutter, whereas with VRR enabled it can smooth over that because it just delivers the frame when it’s available. Obviously it’s better to just have perfectly smooth frame rate but that don’t always happen

edit: I should add that we already have this on displays without VRR with “adaptive sync”. The problem is that in that case it gives up on delivering the full frame so you get tearing. VRR solves that problem (within the refresh range of the display… would be nice if it was bigger)

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

Not true. Games need to be running with unlocked framerate or VRR won't do much.

Games will need to get patched, though this shouldn't be hard to do and my guess is most 1st party and 3rd party AAA titles already have this patch in the works.


EDIT: looks like Sony is adding a "force VRR" option, which probably disables any VSync. The fact that Sony made this option available at system / SDK level means they really thought this through.

You do realize that removing VSYNC isn't a good idea for VRR right? VRR is useless if the frame rate goes higher than the display's refresh rate. You'll get tearing and VRR will not be able to work.

Unless you mean force VRR means disabling any frame caps, but keeps vsync on to prevent the frame rate from going beyond max refresh rate.

 

[ethomaz]

And that somehow negates VRR as a viable feature because.... ?

Play the game you will understand....

 

[chaseroni]

I highly doubt the issues that VRR has on some displays today will be an issue in the years going forward. It’s still new tech, will improve, and is for the better. No need to downplay it today, every technology has to start somewhere. Look at FSR 2.0

 

[akaFullmetal]

Finally and then we can get this feature out and onto better things. Sucks it will still be a couple months away.

 

[adamsapple]

Play the game you will understand....

No, you need to tell us how one game that doesn't drop a lot of frames negates the entire feature as a whole lol.

Let's hear it.

 

[Lognor]

VRR in the "months ahead"!? LOL I thought it was supposed to drop in March. So now we're looking at May at the earliest? WTF Sony? WTF

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I read coming months in conjunction with this screenshot of it already in firmware to suggest that it is already implemented in an alpha firmware release.

So I'm guessing they'll do their own internal testing on several games on multiple televisions and monitors, do a performance review, and then put out a beta release. Following the beta release, it'll of course be released across the board.

The Sony SSD beta occurred in July (29) 2021 and the actual release happened in September (14). So a month and a half.

Obviously, when something is just in alpha and you don't know if you'll run into serious issues, you don't want to say, this will release in June and then the alpha goes fine but then the beta gets tons of reports of issues and now you have to put out an update saying VRR is delayed.

My guess based on that existing screenshot is that we could see at least a beta of this by the end of April or May.

And obviously, to get the best benefit of a game, you'd want a VRR mode to be enabled that uncaps the framerate, but only in VRR mode. And obviously, that will need to be patched in.

They mention that VRR can still work for unpatched games but mileage will vary. Games that don't have framerates steady at either 60 or 30 should still be able to benefit from VRR to at least minimize tearing during frame dips, but that's not the same thing as improved performance from uncapped rates. So I do think there will be system level improvements here.

Depending on the game and the tv some people report VRR causes flickering. So more obviously is Sony can't guarantee every setup and game will work. This is obviously something that the industry is going to have to work to incorporate and will probably be a standard feature in the next generation, but not this one. Most people don't even have TVs that support VRR.

 

[winjer]

You don’t disable VSync.
You are suppose to use both enabled by best practices because VRR and VSync do different things.
If not you are not eliminating all screen tearing… VRR doesn’t do that alone.
What the point to use VRR if you will continue having tearing... VSync should ne used with VRR.

And GT7 doesn’t need VRR at all.

I didn´t say that VRR disables v-sync. VRR removes the latency introduced by v-sync, because now the monitor can adjust itself to the frame rate produced.
The game engine doesn't have to wait for the monitor.
For years I played games with v-sync disabled on PC, because of the latency. But this caused screen-tearing.
But after G-sync, I can have v-sync enabled, not having screen tearing and having the same low latency.
And this is what you'll get on all games. Lower latencies, smoother gameplay, no screen-tearing.

Don't worry, a few months from now you can use VRR on you PS5 and start to understand why so many people praise VRR.

 

[Rivet]

VRR doesn't increase input lag afaik. The other problems you mentioned are very rare and don't impact the general experience. Might depend on the TV though.

Best-selling VRR TVs by far are LG OLEDs. They have a well documented flickering problem with VRR. A new setting has been added to fight that but it's not perfect at all.

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

but I guess this means no freesync support? only HDMI 2.1 VRR...

We knew this for a long time. It was never going to be FreeSync compatible.

Still, you can't ask people to buy a new $1200 TV to be able to play their games on a $500 console properly. That doesn't make sense. VRR was never a real excuse for poor performance, just fanboy ammo.

Framerates always should be very close to locked 60 fps. Or locked 30 when it's really impossible.

Agreed. It shouldn't be an excuse for uneven frame rates and crappy coding. It should only be used to "clean up" rare drops that might occur. Games *should* still be programmed as if the user doesn't have a VRR display and anything else should just be icing on the cake.

You have to understand that v-sync ads latency. By disabling vsync, latencies are reduced and gameplay improves.
But without v-sync, there is screen-tearing. The solution is with VRR. This way we can get the lower latency of not using v-sync and not having the issue with screen-tearing.
On top of that, by having an unlocked frame rate, the game can render at a higher frame rate. This means that latency is reduce even further.

So yes, GT7 will benefit from having VRR. A lot.

In order to reduce latency, ideally you'd want to cap the frame rate to just a few frames LESS than your TV/Monitor's Max refresh rate. Then you would never hit the vsync ceiling, therefore not introducing any input latency that vsync would usually cause.

However, it makes no difference in reality with having vsync on while your frame rate is under max refresh vs having vsync off while your frame rate is under max refresh.

It's best to just leave vsync on and cap the frame rate to a few frames below what your display is capable of.

 

[welshrat]

Personally for me I wont be using VRR on either of my consoles for the time being due to VRR disabling local dimming on my new Sony X65J, something that carries across to next years X65K which I have in my sights. I appreciate that this doesn't affect OLED however I wont go OLED as I game a lot and I can guarantee HUDS etc would start to show retention. I would rather have great contrast etc than a fix for stutter here an there. Maybe the tech will catch up in a few years, by which time I will have the Pro versions of the consoles.

 

[Three]

Good thing the feature that is VRR doesn't need game patches universally to work, as stated by Sony themselves then, isn't it







No thanks, I'm waiting for you to tell me at least one other 120hz game via DF coverage that that confirmed doesn't support VRR.

Let's get that, with the time stamp and/or article please.

Thanks !

I see now you went back and edited your post to "other than Halo infinite". Why? because you don't want to accept the one I've provided showing a game might need a patch to benefit from VRR? There are only a handful of 120hz games to begin with. DF don't do VRR tests or even mention it at all so why reject the evidence we have.

Why don't you open a bug report for Halo Infnite and see what MS tells you at least.

 

[ToTTenTranz]

You do realize that removing VSYNC isn't a good idea for VRR right?

No, I don't. Because it's not true.

It's enabling VSync + framerate limiter at 30 or 60FPS that renders VRR useless because that becomes the maximum framerate threshold. What does need to be set is VSync value corresponding to the TV's/monitor's maximum refresh rate and that's most probably enabled automatically by the O.S.

Sony apparently enabled the means to get the system to take away the framerate limiter in all PS5 games, no matter the engine. It was a really nice foresight on their part, as most of us thought all games would need to get a patch.

 

[ManaByte]

Sony apparently enabled the means to get the system to take away the framerate limiter in all PS5 games

Where is this stated?

 

[Tripolygon]

GT7 runs at 99.8x% 60fps.
Not 98%.

It have a single drop for 20-30ms each minute or even less.

Good. That is the point of VRR, it should never be used by developers as a fix-it-all solution to performance issues. It is supposed to fix those minor issues to make an almost perfect game even better. But also, GT7 has performance issues with certain weather and race combinations, which VRR should help in those moments.

Here are straight 2 minutes of performance issues and no you don't have to be at the back of the grid, you can be in the middle and still suffer some frame drops.


VRR is a net positive. You don't need to argue over this. GT7 can be 99.99% 60fps but VRR will help with the remaining .01% **if you have a display that supports it**.

 

[adamsapple]

Tripolygon you're saying the same things and agreeing with me not just a few posts after calling me a troll and having 'cognitive dissonance' for saying the same things before

Wonders never cease.

I see now you went back and edited your post to "other than Halo infinite". Why? because you don't want to accept the one I've provided showing a game might need a patch to benefit from VRR? There are only a handful of 120hz games to begin with. DF don't do VRR tests or even mention it at all so why reject the evidence we have.

Why don't you open a bug report for Halo Infnite and see what MS tells you at least.

My post was edited within 2, 3 minutes. You sat on my unedited post in quotations probably sifting through digital foundry articles quickly to try and find another example.

The fact that you haven't yet posted one shows you couldn't find one.

An exception is an exception, not the rule.

From Sony's mouth themselves. If you're calling Sony liars as well, that's your prerogative.

As an added option, you can also choose to apply VRR to PS5 games that don’t support it. This feature may improve video quality for some games.

This is going in circles now so I'm gonna skip replying to your quotes now, thanks !

 

[RoadHazard]

Great news that it’s going to be supported in the coming months. People use it as console war fodder but VRR is just overall beneficial and as the gen goes on, locked frame rates are going to become less and less likely.

Good VRR support allows devs to push for higher resolutions with no cost on the user experience.

That's not really true. VRR doesn't magically increase framerate, it just prevents the visible stuttering and screen tearing you get without VRR if the framerate doesn't match the display refresh rate. So something like 45fps would feel smoother with VRR, but 20 would feel exactly like it does without VRR (because that's a framerate a 60/120hz display can match).

So yes, it makes drops just below the target framerate less jarring, but "no cost" is very wrong. Low framerates will still feel sluggish even with VRR.