HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Side note I would not bet the farm Xbox gets this Zen 5 nextbox out in 2025
I was 99.9% sure on the PS5 Pro well over a year ago but I would put my confidence in this nextbox for 2025 at about 50/50
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PS5 Pro Specs Leak are Real, Releasing Holiday 2024(Insider Gaming)
- Thread starter jm89
- Start date
I was 99.9% sure on the PS5 Pro well over a year ago but I would put my confidence in this nextbox for 2025 at about 50/50
ChorizoPicozo
Member
all of these people are so pathetic. Jez corden is blaming GenZ for not buying Xbox
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
The PS5 wasn't a generation upgrade if a Pro is needed so why would we expect a mid gen to be one.HeisenbergFX4 nailed it when he said people would be disappointed with the paper specs.
Some people seem to be expecting a generation upgrade on a mid-generation console for a current generation price.
Won't be long before we get a new console every year instead of firmware updates.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Sounds like they did a 180 on their No-midgen refresh decision.So to kid of piggyback what the one guy was saying in that video I know at one point the Xbox upper management would gather at a round table to discuss major things
This round table they actually left Ybarras seat open to remind them who they work for, the gamer since he was a true gamer (How a gaming console maker could forget who they work for is beyond me)
Anyhow, the way I understand it at one of these sounding board meetings someone (I dont know how) put out last summer that they heard GTA VI was launching late 2025 what if we could push nextbox to launch along side it this could possibly sell us a lot of consoles if its by far the superior place to play.
It was given the green light to pursue and investigate whats possible to launch a next gen box at this time
Now usually at their meeting many options are discussed and many of those are usually not given the green light but several do and of those we only see a tiny bit make it to market
So its not like everyone at Xbox and MS was all on board with launching nextbox early at an inflated cost but they have spent a lot of money pursuing it
Where it stands today I don't really know but I have seen more people like in this video saying they think nextbox is coming early, they said 2026, so its getting traction.
I first mentioned this here on GAF in Aug of last year
I highly doubt they will get a true next gen only console out by 2025. Especially with sony struggling to get more than 16 tflops in their console. Maybe they get to 25 tflops and have to settle for a $699 console, but i dont think thats going to be next gen and will be outdated by the time PS6 comes out in 2027.
the probably should wait till 2026 and release a 35-40 tflops $699 console they can drop to $599 by the time PS6 launches in 2027.
MonkeyClaw36
Member
Its NOT a 67 TFLOP machine. Why are youtubers lying in our face?
It's TF32, so the 33,5 is just that. No multiplying by 2 or deducting by 2.
Its 33,5 PERIOD. No 33,5 /2 NO 33,5 x2. 33. fucking 5.
Not the leap the PS4 Pro was, but an improvement. Not enough to convince me to buy it. No pricing known yet?
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MonkeyClaw36
Member
Its not 67 TF. Its 33,5 floating point. Get over it.
ChiefDada
Gold Member
DF Patreon email.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I would say UE5 has already resolved that issue. the memory footprint of nanite is relatively low. Of course, not every engine can do this but the primitive shaders and mesh shaders can be used by anyone to virtualize geometry. With nanite now supporting foliage, that will reduce the memory costs even more.
UE4 is just a dated engine that should not be used in 2024. And SE devs are absolutely incompetent when it comes to memory management. Im playing Suicide Squad on PC right now and its fine. Same quality assets. nothing special like UE5 textures or models, but PS4 quality textures and models just like rebirth and no issues whatsoever.
I think most good devs will figure out a way around it and have high quality textures and models in their games. The only time they will run into memory constraints is when they push RT effects on the Pro consoles which have a rather large 1-2GB hit at times on the vram so lets hope Sony has increased the vram by at least 1-2 GB to ensure the enhanced RT features of the PS5 pro arent wasted. other than that though, im pretty happy with the texture quality in most games ive played this gen.
Bojji
Member
In pure raster calculations it will perform like 33.5TF RDNA3 GPU or 16.75 RDNA2 GPU. People expecting some magic performance boost are gonna be disappointed.
Now performance with RT is entirely different thing, this GPU can potentially rival Nvidia GPUs of this class on this front (where normally AMD is behind) so somewhere between 3070 and 4070.
MonkeyClaw36
Member
Yup I looked it up and it edges towards my 4070 Super which has 35 floating.
But with less VRAM which will also impact fidelity.
All thing considered, this is the kind of performance I initially expected from the PS5. Or close to it.
Doesn't feel like an upgrade to me, but more " As it should have been".
Its like replacing an old 2060 with a 4070 in a PC.
Seeing people paid 1000 dollars for a base ps5 during the drought/ shortage period, Sony could have doubled down on better specs.
People still would have bought it.
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Bojji
Member
I would love to see jedi survivor running on that Zen 2 CPU in 120fps.
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James Sawyer Ford
Member
I don’t get what MS is doing at this point.
A $800 Xbox won’t sell much, and is getting up there in price to the point of saying, why not just get a PC?
GTA6 will never be in their cards, even if they have the most powerful machine. Nobody but the most niche consumers will care or notice. They will be happy with base PS5
If what
HeisenbergFX4
is saying is true, they have no strategic roadmap. I’m not sure why Xbox exists anymore.
A $800 Xbox won’t sell much, and is getting up there in price to the point of saying, why not just get a PC?
GTA6 will never be in their cards, even if they have the most powerful machine. Nobody but the most niche consumers will care or notice. They will be happy with base PS5
If what
HeisenbergFX4
is saying is true, they have no strategic roadmap. I’m not sure why Xbox exists anymore.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
2026 is also a poor time to release a console, as it does not coincide with any major node advancements
iamvin22
Industry Verified
I trust the ICE team which I'm sure they have their hands on this.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
the funny thing is that they had RDR2 bundled with the xbox when it came out and it didnt do anything. GTA6 might move more bundles than RDR2 but 5 years into the gen, everyone who wanted a console already has one so they wont really move a needle.
With corporations, they are full of suits who have no original ideas. So they look back and see what worked for them in the past and then try that instead of trying something new. This time, i bet they looked at how X360 launched early and became a massive success and think that lighting will strike twice.
Xbox execs have shown repeatedly that they have absolutely no vision whatsoever. They chase trends instead of creating them. They chase markets instead of creating a product that attracts the market. This goes back to kinect but i always thought spending $3 billion on Minecraft was a gigantic waste of money and showed an absolute lack of understanding of what makes a console business flourish. They were caught with the pants down with the PS4 pro and while they were able to pivot and create a rather impressive mid gen refresh of their own, they sent it to die with almost no first party software the last 3 years of that gen.
now they are planning on riding on GTA's coattails instead of actually innovating themselves. They say no one can make a game as ambitious as Rockstar. Well, how about a first party that now owns 40 studios?
P.S Watch them try and copy the Switch's success by releasing a handheld themselves. Its because they dont have any ideas of their own.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Where did you read this?
Jedi is CPU bound even on a 4090. You are not getting 4k 120 fps with RT on any hardware.
You have mentioned the tie in to GTA 6 before and I do believe your information was accurate. I can't help but wonder if their hope of launching off of GTA 6's back (so to speak) was a pipe dream though. Rockstar just does not strike me as a company that would spend any time focused on two generations of hardware at launch when one would have a miniscule install base. My guess is the most a new Xbox would get is back compatibility with the Series X version at launch.So to kind of piggyback what the one guy was saying in that video I know at one point the Xbox upper management would gather at a round table to discuss major things
This round table they actually left Ybarras seat open to remind them who they work for, the gamer since he was a true gamer (How a gaming console maker could forget who they work for is beyond me)
Anyhow, the way I understand it at one of these sounding board meetings someone (I dont know how) put out last summer that they heard GTA VI was launching late 2025 what if we could push nextbox to launch along side it this could possibly sell us a lot of consoles if its by far the superior place to play.
It was given the green light to pursue and investigate whats possible to launch a next gen box at this time
Now usually at their meeting many options are discussed and many of those are usually not given the green light but several do and of those we only see a tiny bit make it to market
So its not like everyone at Xbox and MS was all on board with launching nextbox early at an inflated cost but they have spent a lot of money pursuing it
Where it stands today I don't really know but I have seen more people like in this video saying they think nextbox is coming early, they said 2026, so its getting traction.
I first mentioned this here on GAF in Aug of last year
miklonus
Member
The Zack Snyder approach.
Mr.Phoenix
Member
Thats a hot take if there was ever one lol.
The PS5 "is" a generational upgrade, the problem is that we are just getting to that point where the differences between generations are not as tangible anymore. And you need significantly more power to achieve things that are only marginally better than what was there last gen. I mean think of it, the biggest clear-cut generational leap this gen has been SSDs. The more significant and meaningful one though is actually RT and reconstruction. But the hardware isn't really there to take advantage one yet and the other is more or less just a cheat code, and is basically something that if done right, you won't even know its there.
As for needing a pro, I don't think a pro is "needed", any more than a slim is needed. It was just a strategy shift. Funny enough, I have always wondered, why console makers, 3-4 years in, make a similarly specced version of their current console using the latest tech, which results in it being smaller and cheaper, but never use that tech to make a version of their console that costs the same thing the og console cost to make when it launched. with the PS4pro, they finally did that. So yeah, that's how I look at Pro consoles, they arent needed, because the lead SKU will still be the og PS5, it will still be the cheaper and best-selling SKU. But I feel the Pro consoles are a great way to give the platform an extra shot in the arm, while testing out technologies and building out libraries that could transition into their next gen hardware.
I have never understood why consoles were always expected to stay stagnant for 6-8 years.
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ChiefDada
Gold Member
From the video posted in the thread. But yeah I'm skeptical as well. I'm thinking they mean 120hz
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
TSMC N2 is planned to enter production in 2025, so it should be ready in 2026. N2P would be 2027.
Mr Moose
Member
Isn't that correct? 22.84 GiB is 24.52 GB which is what a 4090 has (24.57 GB)one should not forget DXGI cannot allocate all available VRAM to games on PC
you will usually get a portion of what you have in total. if you have a 10 GB GPU, driver most likely will allocate 9 GB of VRAM, 8 GB card will see 7.2 GB allocation and so on. This is without taking background applications that may use VRAM in account (Windows itself will use some amount of VRAM, Steam uses VRAM, Discord/Spotify etc. uses VRAM but they're extra software so I won't delve much into there)
more sound explanation by Kal (special k developer)
people often gets into this false sense of security where they think they match xbox series x's 10 gb gpu budget with a 10 gb gpu on PC or that 12 GB giving them some "headroom". things will get real messy when these budgets are really stressed down the road. more so with DLSS 3 though, as it uses extra amount of VRAM that developers won't tune their game for
Kazekage1981
Member
Im hoping PS6 will be:
PCIE Gen 6
USB 4.0 Version 2
WiFi7
Latest Bluetooth
GDDR7 with 1TB/SEC bandwidth (25GB-50GB range)
SSD speeds up to 32GB/sec (1 TB of storage is not going to be enough)
Zen5/Zen6 4GHZ-5GHz range
RDNA 5 3GHZ-3.5 GHZ range
Ultraviolet Optical Disk Drive with Terabytes of storage per Optical Disk
DLSS 4.0 like upscaling
8k 60-120hz, 4K 120hz standard
2x-4x raytracing compared to PS5Pro
PCIE Gen 6
USB 4.0 Version 2
WiFi7
Latest Bluetooth
GDDR7 with 1TB/SEC bandwidth (25GB-50GB range)
SSD speeds up to 32GB/sec (1 TB of storage is not going to be enough)
Zen5/Zen6 4GHZ-5GHz range
RDNA 5 3GHZ-3.5 GHZ range
Ultraviolet Optical Disk Drive with Terabytes of storage per Optical Disk
DLSS 4.0 like upscaling
8k 60-120hz, 4K 120hz standard
2x-4x raytracing compared to PS5Pro
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Its not like MS didnt have data on how this could look...with the One X vs the PS4 Pro and RDR 2. We all know how that played out as far as game and console sales.
Once again, some of the decision at MS with Xbox are truly baffling.
They keep thinking power is the reason why things are how they are vs Sony.....like the One X and XSX didnt happen. Hell, we dont even really know with the XSX because they put all the focus on the Series S for production.
What I bolded is something I said about the specs of the One X...like it was created by trying to cater to fanboys vs a console that would sell. MS didnt have to come in at a $499 price with the One X and it didnt do anything vs the PS4, PS4 Pro as far as mindshare.
Truly amazing.
I should have read before posting,
SlimySnake
beat me to it wrt RDR 2, lol.
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JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
No true 4K, but with DLSS and FG, you can definitely get 4K/120.
For JS I turn off RT, since it has little visual impact. Worst implementation of RT I have seen.
JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
A Zen 2 CPU has drastically killed my enthusiasm for the Pro. Yes, I know it is soooo much more than that, but that needed to go to at least Zen 3.
It just seems like an unnecessary bottleneck.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
I knew a lot of people would be let down by Zen 2
Cyborg
Member
Is it a cost thing or a design/BC thing?
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
My guess would be cost because they really did have this thing ready to go into mass production early last year and put it on hold for whatever reason
FingerBang
Member
DF Special here
EDIT: Alex is in there. Don't watch if you are bicurious.
EDIT: Alex is in there. Don't watch if you are bicurious.
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Mr.Phoenix
Member
This VRAM thing, you know its highly likely that they add more DRAM in the console (kinda like what they did with the PS4pro) allowing them to shift some of the OS load from the main system RAM (VRAM) to the DRAM pool. Currently, the PS5 reserves I think 3.5GB for its OS. Doing this could allow them drop that to 1.5GB freeing up 2Gb of main RAM for games.
JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
I am sure the AI upscaling and all the other tech will be help, but if this means that many games will be stuck at 30 fps then what is the point. I seriously doubt anyone who would be interested in a Pro would take a 30 fps ray tracing experience over a 60-120 4K AI experience.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
MS just HAS to realize that putting out a new console in 2025 would max out at 25 million sold right? They can't just abandon the Xbox Series consoles this fast and not think it wouldn't hurt the next console......
Omnipunctual Godot
Gold Member
That unofficial spec mockup sheet said $550 with a decrease to $400 for standard.
Boss Mog
Member
I shouldn't be surprised that DF has a negative take on the PS5 Pro. They seem talk about the wattage power limit for the Pro as if it's going to be the same as the base PS5 one. I'm pretty sure it'll be raised. Also they go on about how GTA6 will never be 60fps on the Pro cause the CPU clock increase isn't enough, as if PSSR isn't gonna be a thing.
M1chl
Currently Gif and Meme Champion
Its also GB vs GiB, 10 vs 2 base (like 10^2 vs 2^10)
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Maybe frame generation?
Rocco Schiavone
Member
Thanks saved me a lot of time.
Mibu no ookami
Member
Digital Foundry is so completely disingenuous at this point that anything they say should be taken with a grain of salt.
What was their commentary on the Switch OLED or the Steam Deck OLED?
Here, Sony is actually putting significantly more performance increase than either of those devices had, in many cases they had none.
What Sony has clearly done here is said, hey, what's the most cost-effective methodology we can take to improve PS5 games for consumers who want increased performance.
We don't ultimately know the price of the PS5 Pro, but if it is only 100 dollars or so more than the PS5, I'd argue that's a pretty good deal better than what we got with either revision of Switch/Steam Deck.
This isn't supposed to be PS6 nor does it need to be marketed as the PS6. It doesn't need to be marketed for 8KTVs in order to have a consumer base.
"Only fans of Digital Foundry would be interested" Guess what, I'm not a fan of DF and I'm interested.
If Sony can deliver higher resolutions while utilizing significantly less processing power using AI upscaling and can drastically improve raytracing, that is going to result in games that look and play much better.
Without fully understanding the strength of Sony's AI upscaling, ANY commentary on the processor only being a 10% increase vs a 30% increase is disingenuous. If Sony believes they can get more than 20% performance through AI upscaling and that more dividends can come out of rtx, that's significant.
Again, look at their commentary on the Switch OLED and Steam Deck OLED if you don't believe me. Their bias is borderline hilarious at this point.
What was their commentary on the Switch OLED or the Steam Deck OLED?
Here, Sony is actually putting significantly more performance increase than either of those devices had, in many cases they had none.
What Sony has clearly done here is said, hey, what's the most cost-effective methodology we can take to improve PS5 games for consumers who want increased performance.
We don't ultimately know the price of the PS5 Pro, but if it is only 100 dollars or so more than the PS5, I'd argue that's a pretty good deal better than what we got with either revision of Switch/Steam Deck.
This isn't supposed to be PS6 nor does it need to be marketed as the PS6. It doesn't need to be marketed for 8KTVs in order to have a consumer base.
"Only fans of Digital Foundry would be interested" Guess what, I'm not a fan of DF and I'm interested.
If Sony can deliver higher resolutions while utilizing significantly less processing power using AI upscaling and can drastically improve raytracing, that is going to result in games that look and play much better.
Without fully understanding the strength of Sony's AI upscaling, ANY commentary on the processor only being a 10% increase vs a 30% increase is disingenuous. If Sony believes they can get more than 20% performance through AI upscaling and that more dividends can come out of rtx, that's significant.
Again, look at their commentary on the Switch OLED and Steam Deck OLED if you don't believe me. Their bias is borderline hilarious at this point.
FingerBang
Member
Stuff like PSSR can only help for GPU limited situations. The CPU will easily be the bottleneck in a game like GTA V.
Let's put it simply: Game logic runs on the CPU. All the game logic you see in a game like GTA, all the people doing things, all the stuff happening, it's calculated by the CPU
The GPU takes care of the graphics and drawing on the screen. More GPU power means more shit that can be drawn on the screen, not more logic.
So PSSR can bring a game that this GPU limited from 1440p to 4K, can't magically increase the framerate if the CPU is the bottleneck. That is why frame generation is considered to be the "solution" for CPU-limited scenarios.
Mibu no ookami
Member
What percentage of games are CPU limited on PS5?
Rocco Schiavone
Member
Are you a developer and do you have a devkit for the PS5 pro where you can check how the CPU is being utilized in GTA VI??
bitbydeath
Member
That’s what I said.
Kazekage1981
Member
I have an important question about Sony's custom upscaling:
Does it include the following:
a) Upscaling + Frame Generation + Ray Tracing
or
b) Upscaling + Ray Tracing
or
c) Upscaling + Frame Generation
or
d) Upscaling only
Does it include the following:
a) Upscaling + Frame Generation + Ray Tracing
or
b) Upscaling + Ray Tracing
or
c) Upscaling + Frame Generation
or
d) Upscaling only
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Very limited knowledge here but this suggests it has all of the above but if you pick RT you lose upscaling and frame gen
Standard PlayStation 5 –
Target – image quality close to Fidelity Mode (1800p) with Performance Mode FPS (60 FPS)
Standard PlayStation 5 –
- Performance Mode – 1080p at 60FPS
- Fidelity Mode – 1800p at 30FPS
- 1440p at 60FPS (PSSR used)
Game 2
Target – Add Raytracing to gameplayStandard PlayStation 5 achieved 60FPS without raytracing, and PlayStation 5 Pro achieved 60FPS with Raytracing.
onnextflix5
Member
It don’t sound like they are working on a Xbox pro, more likely a handheld but who knows, there is a small chance they could release one at the end of 2025, but then Sony will just undercut them by price cutting the ps5 pro. No one outside of Microsoft knows what direction they are headed, maybe ms them self’s don’t know
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