Support NeoGAF

[Omega Supreme Holopsicon]

If memory is the bottleneck, what good is a faster CPU? So it can sit there idle waiting for memory to be available?

pc benchmarks show small benefit going from 12GB to 16GB in most vram hog titles. About 10%. Doubt there will be issues especially if the games run at lower rez and upscale

Stuff like PSSR can only help for GPU limited situations. The CPU will easily be the bottleneck in a game like GTA V.

Let's put it simply: Game logic runs on the CPU. All the game logic you see in a game like GTA, all the people doing things, all the stuff happening, it's calculated by the CPU
The GPU takes care of the graphics and drawing on the screen. More GPU power means more shit that can be drawn on the screen, not more logic.

So PSSR can bring a game that this GPU limited from 1440p to 4K, can't magically increase the framerate if the CPU is the bottleneck. That is why frame generation is considered to be the "solution" for CPU-limited scenarios.

the ps5 when hacked could run rdr2 at 60fps, as I think some mentioned. Besides graphics doubt gta vi npc density and complexity will be notably higher.

Very limited knowledge here but this suggests it has all of the above but if you pick RT you lose upscaling and frame gen

Standard PlayStation 5 –

Target – image quality close to Fidelity Mode (1800p) with Performance Mode FPS (60 FPS)

Standard PlayStation 5 –

• Performance Mode – 1080p at 60FPS
• Fidelity Mode – 1800p at 30FPS

PlayStation 5 Pro –

• 1440p at 60FPS (PSSR used)

Game 2​

Target – Add Raytracing to gameplay

Standard PlayStation 5 achieved 60FPS without raytracing, and PlayStation 5 Pro achieved 60FPS with Raytracing.

edit: you lose upscaling + framegen? OR you lose both lone upscaling and lone frame gen? That is even upscaling alone cant be done with raytracing? That would be very bad news if true and a big blunder.

 

[FingerBang]

pc benchmarks show small benefit going from 12GB to 16GB in most vram hog titles. About 10%. Doubt there will be issues especially if the games run at lower rez and upscale

the ps5 when hacked could run rdr2 at 60fps, as I think some mentioned. Besides graphics doubt gta vi npc density and complexity will be notably higher.

edit: you lose upscaling + framegen? OR you lose both lone upscaling and lone frame gen? That is even upscaling alone cant be done with raytracing? That would be very bad news if true and a big blunder.

Of course the PS5 can run RDR2 at 60fps. It was a game built to run at 30 on a crappy CPU like Jaguar. That's the reason why the PS4 Pro could not run it a 60 fps even though it was several times more powerful than the base PS4, GPU wise. It will come down to how "next-gen" this game is going to be.

If it can run on the Pro at 60, it can probably run on the base PS5 at 60, with some image quality compromises

 

[Mibu no ookami]

It don’t sound like they are working on a Xbox pro, more likely a handheld but who knows, there is a small chance they could release one at the end of 2025, but then Sony will just undercut them by price cutting the ps5 pro. No one outside of Microsoft knows what direction they are headed, maybe ms them self’s don’t know

They're in a tough spot now for the rest of the generation. which puts them in a tough spot for next generation.

They might beat Sony to a handheld, but by how much a year? Two max? That isn't going to allow them to get full penetration into Europe and Asia, where a PlayStation handheld is going to have a significant advantage over an Xbox handheld.

More and more it appears that Microsoft is destined to only be a cloud gaming company, which while I contend is absolutely the future, I don't think we're there yet.

This is why there are so many people focused on downplaying the PS5 Pro despite the fact that everyone should welcome it.

• Sony is already rumored to be working on a handheld. PSSR could give us the handheld we always wanted from Sony with fewer caveats, i.e. better battery life and better visuals
  • PSSR on the PS5 Pro is a test for how feasible that could be
• Those of us who will upgrade will flood the market with used PS5s at retail allowing A LOT more people to get a PS5 for significantly cheaper.
  • Right now at retail, buying a used PS5 doesn't even make sense, it's just as expensive as buying a brand new PS5
  • If the price of a used PS5 could hit say $300 dollars, software sales should tick up, which is good for developers and good for Sony who doesn't need to sell additional hardware units at a loss in order to sell more software
• It could result in a PS5 Price drop, which beyond making it more affordable for games, could again result in lower used prices
• Why is anyone complaining about better performance in games?
• We don't know of any non-spec releated features the PS5 Pro might have
  • I don't think it will, but what if they say the PS5 Pro will have PS3 emulation for example or Dolby Vision

 

[Panajev2001a]

They're in a tough spot now for the rest of the generation. which puts them in a tough spot for next generation.

They might beat Sony to a handheld, but by how much a year? Two max? That isn't going to allow them to get full penetration into Europe and Asia, where a PlayStation handheld is going to have a significant advantage over an Xbox handheld.

More and more it appears that Microsoft is destined to only be a cloud gaming company, which while I contend is absolutely the future, I don't think we're there yet.

This is why there are so many people focused on downplaying the PS5 Pro despite the fact that everyone should welcome it.

• Sony is already rumored to be working on a handheld. PSSR could give us the handheld we always wanted from Sony with fewer caveats, i.e. better battery life and better visuals
  • PSSR on the PS5 Pro is a test for how feasible that could be
• Those of us who will upgrade will flood the market with used PS5s at retail allowing A LOT more people to get a PS5 for significantly cheaper.
  • Right now at retail, buying a used PS5 doesn't even make sense, it's just as expensive as buying a brand new PS5
  • If the price of a used PS5 could hit say $300 dollars, software sales should tick up, which is good for developers and good for Sony who doesn't need to sell additional hardware units at a loss in order to sell more software
• It could result in a PS5 Price drop, which beyond making it more affordable for games, could again result in lower used prices
• Why is anyone complaining about better performance in games?
• We don't know of any non-spec releated features the PS5 Pro might have
  • I don't think it will, but what if they say the PS5 Pro will have PS3 emulation for example or Dolby Vision

I do not want a PS Handheld. I’d much much rather Sony to partner with Valve on Steam Deck 2, helping to design and support it, committing to optimising all their PC games for it and to do it well.

 

[Cyborg]

Releasing a handheld and a console will split the resources that developers have. The console will always get the most attention.
Only focus will work, be a handheld or a console!

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Releasing a handheld and a console will split the resources that developers have. The console will always get the most attention.
Only focus will work, be a handheld or a console!

They're the same games. It'll take less effort than porting games to PC, and the margins are significantly better as well.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Wow. Jedi Survivor at 4k120??? I'm assuming this is the internal render of 1440p/quality mode with proper RT? If true, this is even beyond my expectations and drives home the fact that AI upscaling is the biggest leap from base PS5.

It also means that comparing PC and console versions of some games is pointless. Jedi Survivor, at least on PS5, is definitely not CPU limited.

Very limited knowledge here but this suggests it has all of the above but if you pick RT you lose upscaling and frame gen

Standard PlayStation 5 –

Target – image quality close to Fidelity Mode (1800p) with Performance Mode FPS (60 FPS)

Standard PlayStation 5 –

• Performance Mode – 1080p at 60FPS
• Fidelity Mode – 1800p at 30FPS

PlayStation 5 Pro –

• 1440p at 60FPS (PSSR used)

Game 2​

Target – Add Raytracing to gameplay

Standard PlayStation 5 achieved 60FPS without raytracing, and PlayStation 5 Pro achieved 60FPS with Raytracing.

They probably didn't say the details. But I am expecting all upscaling solutions to be replaced by PSSR (why keep worse upscaling that will also take up to 2ms?) and the first game to be fidelity mode at 1440p + PSSR to 4K. All PS5 Pro games should use PSSR. Game 1 is probably Spider-man 2 BTW so already using RT.

I'd say second game could be Horizon FW.

 

[DrDamn]

Very limited knowledge here but this suggests it has all of the above but if you pick RT you lose upscaling and frame gen

I think those are just examples of enhancements to standard PS5 titles rather than strict options. So dependent on cost it could do any or all of the above, e.g. RT included giving a 1080p base output could still use PSSR to upscale to 4K.

 

[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

It's a meme video so don't take it seriously.

 

[FingerBang]

It's a meme video so don't take it seriously.

I reported you for bad meming. This is TikTok-level stuff. You're better than that.

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

The "Experts" have spoken

 

[ChiefDada]

They probably didn't say the details. But I am expecting all upscaling solutions to be replaced by PSSR (why keep worse upscaling that will also take up to 2ms?) and the first game to be fidelity mode at 1440p + PSSR to 4K. All PS5 Pro games should use PSSR. Game 1 is probably Spider-man 2 BTW so already using RT.

I'd say second game could be Horizon FW.

Holy crap I didn't see the Game 2 bit. HFW or GoW Ragnarok with RTGI would be transformative.

no one buys consoles for first party games alone.

I mean, it is the differentiating factor for me at least.

PSSR can do frame gen

I've heard this a few times now. Was this specifically mentioned in the leaked docs?

 

[Proelite]

I've heard this a few times now. Was this specifically mentioned in the leaked docs?

It would be a no-brainer for PSSR to play nicely with FSR3. So at the least, it'll be a PSSR pass then FSR3 tier that has least input lag.

 

[The Pleasure]

Oh look. It's Virginia, Prince of all foreheads.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

Is it possible that PS5 Pro adds “4 game instant switching” like Xbox?

I remember Sony said they were working on it….but I guess it’s not technically feasible on base PS5?

That would be a great QOL enhancement

 

[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

Good technical write up from chipsandchese about the Zen 2 cores in the PS5. Here's an excerpt - which frankly is a bit above my paygrade to understand - that you guys might find interesting.

What About Gaming?​

Zen 2 was designed to handle a large variety of desktop, mobile, and server workloads with the same core architecture. The quad pipe FPU lets the core perform well with video and photo editing, and can be crucial in throughput bound workloads like Y-Cruncher. But vector execution units can cost considerable area and power. Long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away, games relied on the CPU to render graphics and a better FPU could lead to better gaming performance. But no modern game does that, so a quad pipe FPU is overkill.



FP0/1/3 were busy less than 1% of the time on average. FP2 was busier, but still saw low load overall. Other games are similar, trust me

A dual pipe FPU makes a lot of sense for the PS5, which is meant only for gaming. The PS5’s CPU will never have to handle the wide range of workloads that desktop and server Zen 2 cores are expected to. A smaller FPU can save power and area without delivering noticeably different performance, and is a great fit for the PS5.

Final Words​

PS5’s Zen 2 cores represent an early AMD effort to reduce core area. They show that AMD is very capable of customizing their cores to meet customer demands, even if they don’t publicly advertise configuration options as Arm Ltd does. The cut down FPU in Zen 2 reminds me of Cortex A510’s ability to be configured with different FP pipe counts, letting customers make the performance and area tradeoff they want.


From Arm’s Cortex A510 Optimization Guide. The VPU 128-bit pipes are optional

I find myself liking the tradeoff AMD made for the PS5. They cut execution units that were unlikely to help for the PS5’s workloads. At the same time, they maintained the same number of FP register file, scheduler, and non-scheduling queue entries. Execution latencies were also unchanged. A game like CoD Cold War still needs to execute a few billion FPU operations per second. The cut down FPU is more than capable of handling that while its out of order structures absorb any temporary spikes in demand.


I suspect the PS5’s FPU configuration would be adequate even for a lot of consumers. A lot of applications don’t heavily exercise the FPU, and some that do (like SSIM calculation) can get by with minimal performance loss. Some heavier applications like Y-Cruncher do see a larger performance loss, but a 16.4% difference might not always be noticeable.

The Nerfed FPU in PS5’s Zen 2 Cores

Fritzchens Fritz’s awesome die photos revealed that the Playstation 5’s Zen 2 cores spend less die area on their FPUs than their desktop cousins. Thanks to Brutus, I got to take a close…

chipsandcheese.com

 

[ChiefDada]

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

But the DF Tech Experts say no.

Who should I believe?

 

[sendit]

But the DF Tech Experts say no.

Who should I believe?

DF Tech bros is like listening to Linus Tech Tips, purely for entertainment and lols.

DF Tech bros have probably never written a single line of code.

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

DF Tech bros is like listening to Linus Tech Tips, purely for entertainment and lols.

DF Tech bros have probably never written a single line of code.

I know that. It was sarcasm.

They have never coded a line and are only making assumptions as long as they don't work at Rockstar they don't know shit about the CPU utilization in GTA VI.

 

[jm89]

If this ends up being true.

Boy alot of people are gonna have egg on their faces.

I'll buy the eggs.

 

[YOU PC BRO?!]

DF are straight up wrong about CPU bottlenecking being an issue in modern titles on console when going from 30fps => 60fps (with of course a few exceptions). Their own testing has shown this again and again.

Think about it, consider every game that has a Quality and Performance mode. What typically has to be sacrificed to hit higher frame rates? Usually a few graphical settings and a lower target resolution. That’s because the vast majority of games are GPU limited. CPU bottlenecks are only really a problem when trying to hit frame-rates much higher than 60fps. That’s not an opinion either, that’s a fact.

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

DF are straight up wrong about CPU bottlenecking being an issue in modern titles on console when going from 30fps => 60fps (with of course a few exceptions). Their own testing has shown this again and again.

Think about it, consider every game that has a Quality and Performance mode. What typically has to be sacrificed to hit higher frame rates? Usually a few graphical settings and a lower target resolution. That’s because the vast majority of games are GPU limited. CPU bottlenecks are only really a problem when trying to hit frame-rates much higher than 60fps. That’s not an opinion either, that’s a fact.

If the CPU load is too strong they can reduce traffic or pedestrian density. How can games like Horizon or Watch Dogs run at 60fps??

 

[Putonahappyface]

I was hoping for a new interesting shape (I like the large PS5 variant) but highly unlikely it will look any different from the new smaller PS5.

 

[Euler007]

highly unlikely it will look any different from the new smaller PS5

I'll take that bet.

 

[TheRedRiders]

I'll take that bet.

Tom Henderson mentioned the developer kits for the Pro were the same size as the regular PS5 developer kits, so there's a good chance the final form factor will be similar in size to the original PS5, maybe a different colour scheme.

 

[Physiognomonics]

If this ends up being true.

Boy alot of people are gonna have egg on their faces.

I'll buy the eggs.

They'll say the framerate is not LOCKED 60fps and they'll spend whole videos showing the parts where it drops under 60fps on Pro. They did this with The last of us PS4 remake running on PS4 Pro. Focusing whole videos on scenes running lower while ignoring the scenes running actually better. They are master at this.

 

[ChiefDada]

From DF on upcoming DF Direct:

 

[AncientOrigin]

What i really don’t understand is, why not improve the weak cpu.I mean it’s free the wattage used by it is nothing.Why not make it 4 - 4-3 that would help a lot.And it costs nothing it’s free.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

What i really don’t understand is, why not improve the weak cpu.I mean it’s free the wattage used by it is nothing.Why not make it 4 - 4-3 that would help a lot.And it costs nothing it’s free.

How much would a stronger cpu cost and what benefit would it give you?

How much stronger of a CPU would you need to get to 60 fps on a game locked to 30 fps? How many of these games exist?

Costs nothing? What are you talking about?

 

[AncientOrigin]

How much would a stronger cpu cost and what benefit would it give you?

How much stronger of a CPU would you need to get to 60 fps on a game locked to 30 fps? How many of these games exist?

Costs nothing? What are you talking about?

You misunderstood me.I wasn’t talking about a new cpu model. I was talking about the one which is inside right now only to clock it a bit higher. That would be absolutely for free. And of course it would help a lot.For example Games which run in some situations 26 fps or 55 fps would now be solid 30 or 60.

 

[skit_data]

I was talking about the one which is inside right now only to clock it a bit higher.

Isn't that exactly what they supposedly have done?

 

[Mibu no ookami]

You misunderstood me.I wasn’t talking about a new cpu model. I was talking about the one which is inside right now only to clock it a bit higher. That would be absolutely for free. And of course it would help a lot.For example Games which run in some situations 26 fps or 55 fps would now be solid 30 or 60.

That's not true either. You're constrained by power. Even for Sony to overclock the CPU which they're doing they have to trade that off with a slight reduction in GPU power.

The other problem here is that you're penciling in high clock speeds for future consoles in order to ensure compatibility.

 

[Stooky]

i just checked his linked in. He didn't work at ND. He wasn't at sony during the production of TLOU 2. He was sony offsite Malaysia. Just trash reporting. Now i really don't believe this 60fps comment

 

[David B]

Holiday 2024 is great will make Microsoft pressure themselves into a Xbox series Xpro

I think Microsoft will go oh crap. Ok we'll make a more powerful console and look to release it holiday 2025 than. So it comes and Xbox Series Super X releases. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

 

[Banjo64]

£449 for this, price drop to £299 for the slim digital please.

 

[onnextflix5]

Holiday 2024 is great will make Microsoft pressure themselves into a Xbox series Xpro

Takes 2 years of development time, to bring a quality console to market, so not happening unless they have started developing already, for a late 25 release.

 

[Rockman33]

I’m always excited for improved hardware.

Does seem odd that PlayStation has only put out 4 1st party exclusives and there’s already a upgrade coming?

 

[Magic Carpet]

Has there been any talks or rumors about the controller maybe getting a bigger battery?
It's still my biggest complaint for that controller. I would like to use it as my main PC controller but I can't make it through a weekend without charging it.
So I end up going back to the ole tried and true clicky D-pad Series controller.

 

[Audiophile]

Bit of a sidenote, but I'd expect they'd wanna put plenty of space between this and the Switch 2 (which seems to be coming somewhere in Q1 '25 now).

They may not be direct competitors but they're still competing for gaming dollars and dollars in general. If someone already has a PS5 and it's a choice between the Pro and a Switch 2 two or three months later, then in the short-term at least, the novelty of a new Switch might win out over another PS5 with higher resolutions and some more RT. And even if you don't have a PS5 or Switch yet, the latter will likely (again) have greater novelty as well as affordability.

It'll probs be November, but something like September would make more sense to me.

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

Has there been any talks or rumors about the controller maybe getting a bigger battery?
It's still my biggest complaint for that controller. I would like to use it as my main PC controller but I can't make it through a weekend without charging it.
So I end up going back to the ole tried and true clicky D-pad Series controller.

Change the shitty battery on your own. Takes five minutes.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

You have mentioned the tie in to GTA 6 before and I do believe your information was accurate. I can't help but wonder if their hope of launching off of GTA 6's back (so to speak) was a pipe dream though. Rockstar just does not strike me as a company that would spend any time focused on two generations of hardware at launch when one would have a miniscule install base. My guess is the most a new Xbox would get is back compatibility with the Series X version at launch.

 

[NickFire]

Not sure how much stock to put in source. But wow if true. Cant imagine they would be talking delay this soon after giving a far away date without a really good reason or massive check.

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

AMD Ryzen 9000 "Strix Point" CPUs to Feature Zen 5 Cores, RDNA 3+ GPU: Launch in H2 2024 | Hardware Times

The Ryzen 9000 "Strix Point" mobile processors will launch later this year, equipped with an upgraded CPU, GPU, and NPU.

www.hardwaretimes.com

Let's see what the Pro can achieve.

 

[Hunnybun]

It also means that comparing PC and console versions of some games is pointless. Jedi Survivor, at least on PS5, is definitely not CPU limited.


They probably didn't say the details. But I am expecting all upscaling solutions to be replaced by PSSR (why keep worse upscaling that will also take up to 2ms?) and the first game to be fidelity mode at 1440p + PSSR to 4K. All PS5 Pro games should use PSSR. Game 1 is probably Spider-man 2 BTW so already using RT.

I'd say second game could be Horizon FW.

The wording makes me think the second game is GT7. It's surely much more likely to be a game that already has RT implemented in some form than something like HFW.

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

The Nerfed FPU in PS5’s Zen 2 Cores

Fritzchens Fritz’s awesome die photos revealed that the Playstation 5’s Zen 2 cores spend less die area on their FPUs than their desktop cousins. Thanks to Brutus, I got to take a close…

chipsandcheese.com

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

 

[Wooxsvan]

posted 2 days ago! so slow my friend

 

[Rocco Schiavone]

posted 2 days ago! so slow my friend

Posted where?? Haven't found it here.

 

[daninthemix]

Hey guys, perhaps you can help me: I’m having a real hard time locating the PS5 Pro CPU on this list. Any ideas?