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Insider Gaming has learned of the developer requirements that need to be met to have the ‘PS5 Pro Enhanced’ label
Majormaxxx
Member
cool but I want to know HOW MUCH BIGGER the ps5 pro will be?
Skifi28
Member
This. The "it's not needed" crowd doesn't have to buy it if they're happy with their existing console. It won't have any exclusives, everyone wins.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
The first part sounded good, made it sound like Sony is really pushing for consistent 60fps with this machine. But then the second part says just about any little improvement, like a slightly higher resolution, will grant the game that label? Weird.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Cool, they don't have to give a shit about the Pro.
Fabieter
Member
They also expected big differences between ps5 and series x. I wouldn't take all their words as gospel bro.
Fabieter
Member
Bg3, lotf, the finals and ffxvi dont offer 60 fps modes?
Physiognomonics
Member
Most games are GPU limited, so yes. Games that don't run well on PS5 (like DD2) also won't run well on high end PC.
While barely improving the CPU?
It's nice to want things, Sony
2 of those games are CPU limited and run badly using expensive cpus. Doubling CPU power (by tripling CPU cost) wouln't be enough for those. Stop trolling and use your brain please.
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ThatPolishGuy
Member
I remember just going from regular PS4 to PS4 Pro made a huge difference in terms of picture quality. And now we can get this, and so much more. And people argue. Ridiculous. You either buy it and enjoy crispier image, better effects and more stable framerate or some combination of those or you don't upgrade and stay on the base model if you're satisfied. It's as simple as that. No need to argue.
I for one think I might upgrade. It all depends, I will just watch some tests before I buy and see how much better it really is. I can always sell my base model and move on.
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King Dazzar
Member
I keep a spreadsheet for all my games, so I know the best TV/HDR settings and Edge profiles etc to use. Out of a currently installed 48 games on my PS5, all of which are 60fps capable, only 6 require me to use VRR to get a smooth 60fps. You could if you like add another 2 on top of that, where by I can choose an unlocked mode with VRR, which I prefer over the locked 60fps option.
These aren't made up figures and I'm sensitive to stutter. And I'm anal & analytically minded enough to create and maintain a spreadsheet about them all.
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Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
The problem as ever is people making really low-resolution assumptions about how things actually work.
Here's the thing, if you want to get enough performance to hit any given cycle time the way a developer would go about it depends very much on where the shortfall is found to be. Some elements are absolutely necessary to run in lockstep with the display sync, others can be done asynchronously at a lower frequency.
For example, if the GPU is getting swamped by having to draw loads of NPC's then the solution is to reduce the number on screen by foreshortening the culling distance. However this will not suffice if the CPU is struggling because its still got to run the pathing and AI logic even when those NPC's aren't being visualized. In that case the solution is to run said AI at half the frequency (update in 2 steps every other cycle) when they are beyond a certain distance from the camera and in so doing halve the load on that process.
Its all about making smart trade-offs in what's been asked of the system, and having the time and manpower to identify and execute those trade-offs as transparently as possible. Some things are just quicker and easier to implement than others, with a general rule of thumb being how predictable the economy is, and the dynamics and interdependent nature of what's being modified.
So much is about timing and scheduling when it comes down to efficiency, and that's not something that can simply be eyeballed. Which effectively is what DF and the rest do. Yes, they can look at rough metrics on PC showing relative loads but that's not to be trusted on console as the memory architecture and data throughput handling is very different. Obvious example of that being PS5's custom I/O block doing data swizzling and decomp work that has to be handled by the CPU or GPU on PC.
The reality is that its impossible to absolutely predict because ultimately what it comes down to is time and money to diagnose and execute the optimal trade-offs using every capability and resource of the target platform.
Which is why for me DF and the like making prescriptions with such certainty about what is possible and what's not is so misleading.
Here's the thing, if you want to get enough performance to hit any given cycle time the way a developer would go about it depends very much on where the shortfall is found to be. Some elements are absolutely necessary to run in lockstep with the display sync, others can be done asynchronously at a lower frequency.
For example, if the GPU is getting swamped by having to draw loads of NPC's then the solution is to reduce the number on screen by foreshortening the culling distance. However this will not suffice if the CPU is struggling because its still got to run the pathing and AI logic even when those NPC's aren't being visualized. In that case the solution is to run said AI at half the frequency (update in 2 steps every other cycle) when they are beyond a certain distance from the camera and in so doing halve the load on that process.
Its all about making smart trade-offs in what's been asked of the system, and having the time and manpower to identify and execute those trade-offs as transparently as possible. Some things are just quicker and easier to implement than others, with a general rule of thumb being how predictable the economy is, and the dynamics and interdependent nature of what's being modified.
So much is about timing and scheduling when it comes down to efficiency, and that's not something that can simply be eyeballed. Which effectively is what DF and the rest do. Yes, they can look at rough metrics on PC showing relative loads but that's not to be trusted on console as the memory architecture and data throughput handling is very different. Obvious example of that being PS5's custom I/O block doing data swizzling and decomp work that has to be handled by the CPU or GPU on PC.
The reality is that its impossible to absolutely predict because ultimately what it comes down to is time and money to diagnose and execute the optimal trade-offs using every capability and resource of the target platform.
Which is why for me DF and the like making prescriptions with such certainty about what is possible and what's not is so misleading.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Good, I hope no one buys this product on day one, it’s going to be trash people, save your money
So I can get two without problems
King Dazzar
Member
Thats exactly where I am. That poll the other day showed way too many people interested in one. I need mine day one...
Mibu no ookami
Member
The polling on this is pretty clear on neogaf, that the vast majority want the PS5 Pro.
The following people don't want there to be a ps5 pro: Xbox fanboys, PCMR, PS5 owners who are poor and feel like a PS5 pro makes their system a ps5 amateur.
Little Mac
Member
Day 1.
Kenneth Haight
Gold Member
Constant 60fps
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
Where do you think engineers and devs sit?
Bojji
Member
Digital Foundry disagrees with you, and I think they know what they are talking about
CPU is easily current gen Achilles's heel
Actually they don't agree with that, majority of games are GPU limited and you can hear that from their videos. There are some games that are CPU limited and Pro won't help with them but they are not majority, for sure.
Knack 3 will release the same day as Half Life 3. HYPE!
Not really, it has to be at least one of those things to get this label. If you wan't to do all of them on 45% more powerful console with the same CPU... Good luck.
For example add RT to game that (internally) is CPU limited to for example ~65FPS (it doesn't show in gameplay as it's locked to 60) and it will most likely hammer that CPU below 60.
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Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
As Bojji said, it’s what Sony wants to do with the Pro but their devs only need one of the three to get the PS5 Pro enhanced sticker.
But there were never any mandates in terms of featureset. Not on Sony or Microsoft consoles.
I worked on one of the games that were part of initial PS4Pro launch showcase - at no point was Sony involved in any way determining what features we used or how/for what. We simply delivered a set of enhancements as determined by the team, and that became part of the showcase. And yes - it was primarily settings changes to take advantage of extra-power.
Pro exclusive features were mostly left on the cutting-floor (FP16, Multi-resolution Render targets, ID buffers etc).
Ultimately the mandate was only about shipping Pro enabled software (in modern terms - no BC+ titles allowed post the cut-off date) - what you 'did' with it was left open to every title.
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
This is sounding worse and worse the more I see about it. Just wait til PS6.
Raven77
Member
Yes let's keep chasing this pointless 60 FPS dream instead of actually doing something new with gameplay for the first time in 20 years...
If you put someone in a time machine from 2005 and brought them to 2024 they could easily pick up any game and it would feel familiar. That's the REAL thing we should be trying to address.
But no, let's go after that buttery smooth frame rate because GOD forbid a game run at 30 fps.
If you put someone in a time machine from 2005 and brought them to 2024 they could easily pick up any game and it would feel familiar. That's the REAL thing we should be trying to address.
But no, let's go after that buttery smooth frame rate because GOD forbid a game run at 30 fps.
Bernardougf
Gold Member
Thats not what he said... he said "the average person dont even notice" .. not caring and not noticing are two very different things ... any person with good functioning eyes and brain will notice the difference between 30 and 60 fps ... lets say tomorrow all the kids that play COD turn on their game and is 30 fps locked for everybody instead of the usual 60 fps they had for years.. you really think they will not notice ? Or care ? .... call it drama, call it whatever you want.. if you dont care about fps fine.. but saying its not noticeable by the average gamer thats utterly stupid and disingenuous to just prove some made up point.
It's similar to PS4 Pro.That seems like... an extremely low bar.
So if a game goes from 1800p to native 4k, with no other improvements, it will be labeled "PS5 Pro Enhanced"?
Hudo
Member
DF are very good for comparing FPS/performance of games on different platforms. For anything that goes beyond that, they're extremely out of their depth and have half-knowledge at best. But they are very good at talking with authority, so they appear as if they know their shit. They don't.
Chittagong
Gold Member
While 4K 60fps standard may sound like an unimpressive bar for some, the real news is here that thanks to PS5 Pro, for the first time ever, PS5 to PS6 will be a console transition that is not wasted to resolution and frame rate at all. The entirety of that transition will go to actual graphics, physics and AI improvements.
Skifi28
Member
Yeah, I wish they would stick to making gaming comparisons, but they ignore tons of interesting stuff that gets released only to waste their time with stupid speculations.
DaleinCalgary
Member
I trust that Cerny guy
ThatPolishGuy
Member
For me its not an issue- but I agree with your post 100%. As I suspect most of GAFs users. It's not like I won't get back some of the money selling my base system. If its really can be as huge jump as it seems because of PSSR. I think it will be worth it.
I honestly feel like PS4 Pro checkerboard image was cleaner than PS5 FSR titles we get now. And if I get similar jump in image clarity+ performance boost or RayTracing boost. I'm all for it.
Imtjnotu
Member
Talking about the ones who don't work in the industry and went to YouTube university
Fortuneelsewhere
Member
One of those things for the enhanced label but aditional to that if you want to implement a “Pro Mode” you have to fullfield all 3 (upscaled resolution to 4K; 60 fps and ray tracing) so I imagine all first party and exclusive future games will ship with a “Pro Mode” so this will be an instant buy for me.
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Digital Foundry disagrees with you, and I think they know what they are talking about
CPU is easily current gen Achilles's heel
Digital Foundry does not know what they're talking about.
They were expecting XSX to considerably outpace the PS5 based on 12TF, VRS, full RDNA2 and other bullshit and they completely promoted the idea that Series S would have been just the XSX at lower resolution because the CPU is the same.
Even before the specs leak they had already decided they had to downplay mid gen refreshes this gen, wonder why
You will see them comparing the PRO with 4080s and 4090s to continue with their script.
The receipts you want are just in reality.
The amount of games that do not have a 60fps mode this gen are extremely limited.
The weaknesses of current gen hardware is not the CPU, it's the super weak ray tracing performance and the fact it doesn't exist something like DLSS and we have to deal with the pixel crawling caused by FSR/FSR2.
This does not mean that a CPU 2x more powerful than what we got wouldn't be useful, but design is a compromise based on price and costs. The Pro is addressing the biggest issues we have atm in consoles.
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Bojji
Member
We will see how it will look once console is released. With PS4 Pro even some Sony first party was just doing very basic things like 1080p->1440p resolution upgrade and that's it, and there is some number of games that don't have any enchantments over standard PS4 (like Granblue recently).
ThatPolishGuy
Member
I feel like this will be a huge upgrade. They might thrown in supersampling like they did for PS4 Pro. Folks with 1440p OLEDs or Mini LED monitors might get even crispier image that way. Dunno how this would work but I think 1080p -> 4k PSSR -> supersampling (downsampling) to 1440p.Digital Foundry does not know what they're talking about.
They were expecting XSX to considerably outpace the PS5 based on 12TF, VRS, full RDNA2 and other bullshit and they completely promoted the idea that Series S would have a been just the XSX at lower resolution because the CPU is the same.
Even before the specs leak they had already decided they had to downplay mid gen refreshes this gen, wonder why
You will see them comparing the PRO with 4080s and 4090s to continue with their script.
The receipts you want are just in reality.
The amount of games that do not have a 60fps mode this gen are extremely limited.
The weaknesses of current gen hardware is not the CPU, it's the super weak ray tracing performance and the fact it doesn't exist something like DLSS and we have to deal with the pixel crawling caused by FSR/FSR2.
This does not mean that a CPU 2x more powerful than what we got wouldn't be useful, but design is a compromise based on price and costs. The Pro is addressing the biggest issues we have atm in consoles.
I remember checkerboarding image on PS4 Pro with supersampling to 1080p has blown me away back in the day. Witcher 3 looked crisp compared to base PS4 I was amazed. Grass and vegetation looked aliased on PS4 to the point it looked like it was drawn in MS Paint but on Pro, man, extra crisp. Same with God of War 2018.
If I get something similar with PS5 Pro plus solid 60 fps. I will jump ship.
As of DF I see they are biased, I take their stuff with a grain of salt. I watch their content from time to time- sometimes I just skip stuff to only see performance on PS5 and graphs and that's about it because thats whats actually important for me. Not comparing 4090 maxed to PS5 performance mode, and not quality or balanced mode... Alex likes to do that.
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Brigandier
Member
This has bothered me with DF over the past few weeks they're supposed to be tech enthusiasts but all they have done is chirp on about "what's the point" and sound more than happy with base consoles for another 3-4 years.
They come across as fanboys.
Also why are people thinking the PS5 Pro will have frame rate issues because the CPU isn't getting an upgrade??? Do better GPUs not increase frame rates and increase resolution potential anymore lol and before someone quotes me saying the CPU will bottleneck the GPU upgrade do you think that Sony a hardware manufacturer being designed by Mark Cerny are just going to release a heavily crippled bottlenecked PlayStation console
Seriously the twaddle I've read on this forum recently is fucking pathetic.
AmuroChan
Member
TBH I'm not sure that it would have - when first enhanced consoles got unveiled to devs I thought we'd get (at least some)uproar over that, it was entirely a platform-holder power move and devs taking all of the work. But instead the response we got was just resounding
instead. It's like the industry at large just shrugged and ...
Yes, but I think it would be different if games started getting delisted from PSN in mass because they didn't meet the Pro Enhanced requirements.
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Yea but the way TRC works, it wouldn't be delisting after the fact - you'd get blocked before you put it up in the first place.
Which could then lead to situations like BG3 on Series S - some devs skipping on PS titles - but I wonder how often that would actually happen
Skifi28
Member
I wouldn't care if that was their stance in general, what annoys me is that they constantly whine about image quality (which I agree with) and how poor reconstruction often looks on console (again, agree with) but when new hardware comes that adresses this point: "It's not needed" "bUt WhAt AbOuT tHe CpU" . I'm not even accusing them of having a specific agenda, it's just a baffling stance to adopt for a hardware enthusiast channel. They're always happy when a new generation of GPUs drop or whenever new AI stuff is announced for nVidia, but they're totally lukewarm about anything PS5 pro related despite all the exciting possibilities. Only concern and armchair game development, I just don't understand.
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playsaves3
Member
It is biggest issue with the ps5 is they went with zen 2 over zen 3 the gpu is very good at least in raster
Digital Foundry disagrees with you, and I think they know what they are talking about
CPU is easily current gen Achilles's heel
Gudji
Member
Brb giving Cerny a call saying Hugare said no.
While barely improving the CPU?
It's nice to want things, Sony
About this size:
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Exactly.
I dont know what some were expecting, its not a next gen console.
Its not supposed to be a next gen console. It was never supposed to be a next gen console.
saintjules
Member
What, you can't come up with $600USD (guessing price) between now and November with a regular job? Start saving. We knew about the Pro since last year lol.
HerjansEagleFeeder
Member
Pro dudes catching up to my RTX 4060 it seems, nice. Will probably buy a 5080 by then or something. Anyways, would be great indeed if Sony was a bit more rigorous with the pubs and implement actual quality standards as to framerates and resolution. There's too little control going on despite being a closed ecosystem, which is ironic. Makes it look like Sony is afraid of the Ubisofts and Rockstars.
Gaiff
SBI’s Resident Gaslighter
The RTX 4060 isn’t even much better than the base PS5 in rasterization. The Pro will not only blow it out of the water there, but also have much better RT and AI upscaling, two things that make the RTX 4060 (at least the 16GB model) better than the base PS5’s GPU.
The Pro’s GPU will be on the level of a 4070 most likely. Much better than the 4060.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Actually they were the first to sound the alarm bells on devs not wanting the series s BEFORE it was even announced. Then the memory bottleneck rumors right before launch, and then covered it again and again as more and more games came out and more and more devs started speaking out.
you are correct on the rest, but they looked at the specs and ANYONE looking at the specs 10.2 vs 12.1 shoudve come to the same conclusion. its not their fault MS produced a console with all kinds of different bottlenecks from CUs not being effectively utilized to slower clocks in comparison to other RDNA2 cards and the retarded split ram architecture. the only thing that shouldve been a red flag was the split ram bandwidth but for over a decade in the PC space, and across 4 different consoles, we had seen the console with more tflops come out on top. And the xbox does come out on top more often than it doesnt. its 50/50 at this point so its not like they were completely wrong.
Anyway, you guys shouldnt be claiming victory just yet. Their concerns are valid. We are seeing A LOT of the same issues with the PS5 pro. Just like MS went with a wide and slow design, sony is also going with a wide and slow design. the clocks are the same, if not lower. the CUs have now ballooned to 60 and are not offering the same 65% performance increase we would expect from 65% more tflops. Sony themselves state its 45%. It's possible this thing is bottlenecked the same way the XSX CUs were. the vram bandwidth increase is also not enough especially if they want rt at 60 fps or higher resolutions. rt adds to the vram bandwidth and so do higher resolutions. is 25% enough? maybe, maybe not. All i know is that it held back the PS4 Pro, and on my 3080 sony is likely targeting as a benchmark for rt games, i have 760 GBps just for the GPU alone.
We should all wait and see. including DF, but no harm in looking at the specs and judging based on the specs and prior performance benchmarks.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
i get 30-55 fps on my pc with a far better cpu than the ps5. it stutters like hell because its constantly jumping every half a second or so. my frametime graph looks like its having sex.. its not a good cpu test and games like that wont be fixed even if they put a 7800x3d in there.