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[Zafir]

Pretty much that ^.

The original Shenmue is an amazingly groundbreaking experimental video game, and there's a lot to like about it.

The sequel is just magnitudes better though. It has more of a proper game structure, the systems are refined and expanded upon, the game world is bigger and more varied, and the story, characters, and pacing are, IMO, possibly the best I've ever seen in a video game.

Well I still feel like each game has their own niche though. I don't think Shenmue is that much worse, it was just doing something different.

Like Shenmue was fantastic because of how surprisingly believable the world was. Ryo knew a lot of the locals, and the dialogue would change depending on how far into the game you were. Like some of the locals had their own stories to tell. It also didn't matter that the pace was slow since it was very much an introduction story.

Shenmue 2 kind of lost that sense due to the scale, but the scale and the fact the tone had been set allowed for a brisker pace. Ryo had actually set off on his journey and it ends up being... more exciting as a result.

 

[Maligna]

While 2 is better on a technical level, I prefer the first Shenmue simply for the cozy, home town atmosphere and Japanese setting.

 

[Spaghetti]

Well I still feel like each game has their own niche though. I don't think Shenmue is that much worse, it was just doing something different.

Like Shenmue was fantastic because of how surprisingly believable the world was. Ryo knew a lot of the locals, and the dialogue would change depending on how far into the game you were. Like some of the locals had their own stories to tell. It also didn't matter that the pace was slow since it was very much an introduction story.

Shenmue 2 kind of lost that sense due to the scale, but the scale and the fact the tone had been set allowed for a brisker pace. Ryo had actually set off on his journey and it ends up being... more exciting as a result.

I'd argue that Shenmue II didn't lose that sense of world-building with the locals at all, it's just that it was better integrated into the core plot (Four Wude) and sidequests (Duck Racing questline).

You still get a sense of character and place from minor NPCs too. The butchers in Green Market Quarter, for example. Talk to them for directions or whatever, and you'll get a spiel about how they hate each other, or they think the other is a liar, etc.

Not that the original Shenmue isn't top of its class for world-building or anything, but the sequel retained more of that aspect than people think.

 

[sbkodama]

Yu Suzuki interview (MAGIC 2016) by Shenmue Master - Shenmue 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mpnc23uyH4w

Yu Suzuki Interview - Shenmue 3 (Shenmue Dojo & Team Yu @ Magic Monaco 2016)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-_kR2fnYKc

Some good info here even if some questions could go further after answers, but time etc, thank you.

I love how he implied that even if a lot of fans asks about the main story, it's really about the game systems and shenmue is really worth it because it's a game.
I could have a lot of questions about his current game design philosophy after this little reminder, he give the example about be able to move a character just by thinking about it, but what about the games themselves ?

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I'd argue that Shenmue II didn't lose that sense of world-building with the locals at all, it's just that it was better integrated into the core plot (Four Wude) and sidequests (Duck Racing questline).

You still get a sense of character and place from minor NPCs too. The butchers in Green Market Quarter, for example. Talk to them for directions or whatever, and you'll get a spiel about how they hate each other, or they think the other is a liar, etc.

Not that the original Shenmue isn't top of its class for world-building or anything, but the sequel retained more of that aspect than people think.

By an extension, Shenmue II also has the entire Kowloon section which takes advantage of the entire city. Going through the various quarters, all those buildings and the sense of mystery and danger? Or Guilin? Guilin's entire section feels so incredible in terms of building a sense of place that it actively changed how I viewed games.

Shenmue II's world building isn't worse than I's. It's just different.

I find it interesting how so many people who say II is lesser in terms of world and characters ignore disc 3 and 4. Sure, there are repeat npcs that show up in the same area all the time, but in creating a sense of place Kowloon and Guilin reign supreme.

 

[Zafir]

I'd argue that Shenmue II didn't lose that sense of world-building with the locals at all, it's just that it was better integrated into the core plot (Four Wude) and sidequests (Duck Racing questline).

You still get a sense of character and place from minor NPCs too. The butchers in Green Market Quarter, for example. Talk to them for directions or whatever, and you'll get a spiel about how they hate each other, or they think the other is a liar, etc.

Not that the original Shenmue isn't top of its class for world-building or anything, but the sequel retained more of that aspect than people think.

By an extension, Shenmue II also has the entire Kowloon section which takes advantage of the entire city. Going through the various quarters, all those buildings and the sense of mystery and danger? Or Guilin? Guilin's entire section feels so incredible in terms of building a sense of place that it actively changed how I viewed games.

Shenmue II's world building isn't worse than I's. It's just different.

I find it interesting how so many people who say II is lesser in terms of world and characters ignore disc 3 and 4. Sure, there are repeat npcs that show up in the same area all the time, but in creating a sense of place Kowloon and Guilin reign supreme.

I was more referring to general npc characters.

I don't think there's any doubt that Shenmue 2's world building is top notch.

I think Maligna probably put it better, it has a very nice homely feel which I don't think any game has replicated quite as well. Shenmue 2 lost that, because it wasn't ever going for it.

It was going for the total opposite, he was venturing into the unknown with every new place he visited.

Either way, I still hold both of the games up side by side, and that was more my point. I don't think Shenmue is that "magnitudes" below the second. It was just always going for a different feel, and so it's kind of silly to compare them in that sense. (Ignoring gameplay comparisons, where some stuff was improved in 2)

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Yeah, as I said on the last page I don't think II is that much better. I consider them equals that add to each other, although I do prefer II.

 

[Spaghetti]

We basically all agree, more or less. We probably wouldn't be in this thread if we didn't think a core strength of the series was immersing the player and making the worlds feel lived in.

We can also probably agree that Shenmue still does world-building magnitudes better than most action games, RPGs, open world games, [Insert comparable genre here], etc, etc.

Each NPC being individual and having a unique back story is, even today, fucking nuts.

 

[Mugen08]

Update 55

Finally, victory!?

First for the Shenmue III logo. There have been many comments from Shenmue fans wanting the logo to match the original logos from Shenmue 1& 2. We have heard your calls and will of course put it on the to-do list. This particular issue will take some time, however, as game development is currently taking a front seat to other design issues. Designers and other parties will also need to be consulted with, so before we can give a more definite answer, we would ask you please give us some time.

A bit more worrying, would definitely prefer a Japanese voice option with English caps.

The second issue receiving a lot of attention concerns the voice audio options. Many people have asked for there to be an option to switch between Japanese and English voicing. We understand how strongly people feel about this feature, and it is something we would like to include as well, but the inclusion of a dual audio option will ultimately come down to budgetary limitations. Whether it will be added or not, will need to be decided as development progresses.

Some nice work pictures in the update as well.

 

[Shy]

A bit more worrying, would definitely prefer a Japanese voice option with English caps.

Yeah, i was going to post that. It's disconcerting. 😟

 

[Krejlooc]

If they don't naturally support japanese voices, surely modders will put them back in.

 

[Shy]

If they don't naturally support japanese voices, surely modders will put them back in.

Hope so. I would like to have the option for both.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Thank goodness, a new update. Finally?!

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

The old Shenmue games are different from modern games in the area of dual language. Shenmue 1 Japanese Undub's are notorious for issues related to skipped dialogue, added dialogue for localization, and more. I'm not sure it'd be as much a problem now, but who really knows? I really hope dual audio is a thing because I want to go through it in both English and Japanese.

 

[marcbret87]

I think Shenmue II was a better game than the first. The pace was a bit faster, the environments more varied, there was generally more situations to test your combat skills, and also the fact that you could choose to skip time or ask for directions eliminated some of the stuff that could sometimes be annoying from the first. That said, much of this is simply due to the fact that the second game has a different focus from the first. As some people already pointed out, the first game makes you feel like you are in your home, while the second takes away that sense of security and sends you into the unknown.

It's really a shame that the release of the 2nd game was overshadowed by the Dreamcast demise and its low profile release in Xbox, otherwise we might not have had to wait so much for a third game.

 

[Krejlooc]

I think Shenmue II was a better game than the first. The pace was a bit faster, the environments more varied, there was generally more situations to test your combat skills, and also the fact that you could choose to skip time or ask for directions eliminated some of the stuff that could sometimes be annoying from the first. That said, much of this is simply due to the fact that the second game has a different focus from the first. As some people already pointed out, the first game makes you feel like you are in your home, while the second takes away that sense of security and sends you into the unknown.

It's really a shame that the release of the 2nd game was overshadowed by the Dreamcast demise and its low profile release in Xbox, otherwise we might not have had to wait so much for a third game.

definitely agree. Mechanically, it did a lot to overcome the parts of Shenmue I that could drag, and the story and setting was way more interesting. Shenmue I always felt like it should have been a small introductory chapter to a bigger game, not a stand alone game. Not a lot happens in the story beyond Ryo's dad's death, where most of the plot for the series thusfar comes from Shenmue II. And, if we can be realistic, there was lots of padding in Shenmue I. The bit where you work for your ticket to save up money, only to not need it was aggravating.

I get why Shenmue I exists overall - they needed to get something out the door and into people's hands after so many years of work. But I think Shenmue I and II packaged as one game would have been even better received precisely because I think Shenmue II is a much better game.

I do like the way Shenmue constantly expands, though. Thus far, it's been a series about escalation. You begin in a bedroom, and can explore every bit of it. Then it opens up into a house, and you can explore every bit of that. Then it opens into a yard, then a street, then a neighborhood, then a small town, then an entire city, then hong kong, and now an entire portion of western china. Such an awesome concept.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

I feel Shenmue I's slower parts make the faster parts in II more impactful. II wouldn't work as much - as a story, a piece of interactive art - if I didn't take its time to create build up. The slower parts of Shenmue is exactly what makes it stand out from other games. Doing away with that isn't Shenmue in my eyes, and I never really found I so slow it was unbearable, either. Its pacing is slow but methodical. It has purpose.

 

[Krejlooc]

I feel Shenmue I's slower parts make the faster parts in II more impactful. II wouldn't work as much - as a story, a piece of interactive art - if I didn't take its time to create build up. The slower parts of Shenmue is exactly what makes it stand out from other games. Doing away with that isn't Shenmue in my eyes, and I never really found I so slow it was unbearable, either. Its pacing is slow but methodical. It has purpose.

There are parts of Shenmue I that I feel make it an overall slower game without really adding much - like having a curfew. Or only being able to pass time by playing in the arcade. I'm glad I can stay out late in Shenmue II, and also that I can fast forward time - if I had to spend days waiting to do the barbershop part, where I failed many times, I probably would have gotten all pissed off.

I kind of hope Shenmue III has a fast travel option. Having the ability for people to walk you around to your location in Shenmue II was enormous for me, and an option I used all the time, but just walking in silence is kind of dull. It'd be nice to be able to skip those parts.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

There are parts of Shenmue I that I feel make it an overall slower game without really adding much - like having a curfew. Or only being able to pass time by playing in the arcade. I'm glad I can stay out late in Shenmue II, and also that I can fast forward time - if I had to spend days waiting to do the barbershop part, where I failed many times, I probably would have gotten all pissed off.

I kind of hope Shenmue III has a fast travel option. Having the ability for people to walk you around to your location in Shenmue II was enormous for me, and an option I used all the time, but just walking in silence is kind of dull. It'd be nice to be able to skip those parts.

You can't stay out late in II. Ryo goes to bed at literally the same time - 11 pm - in both games.

I find the curfew adds purpose and makes each day useful, so you can plan ahead. This is mostly for playthroughs when you're in a Slothouse funk, or if you're a collector. If you're someone who just speeds the game story, sure. No curfew makes sense, but for those that take their time? I also think that the fact you can only speed up time by going to the arcade is genius. The game forces you to interact with the sum of its parts.

Frankly, in II I feel sometimes forced to skip time. Like when you're looking for the Wulinshu. You typically find out it's at the library at the temple and by that time it's already closed, and you can't leave Wise Man's Qtr without the Wulinshu. Forcing you to speed up time. It feels like the game takes control out of the players hands sometimes to unnecessarily speed things up when all I want is to get some capsule toys. Thankfully that's the only large example of the game taking control from the player. Hopefully III allows us to experience both types. I personally find time skipping to be such a wasteful for a game like Shenmue but that's just me.

Shenmue has always had fast travel as well. In I you can turn it on in the options. When you leave the Hazuki household, you have the option of picking between Yamanose, Sakuragaoka, Dobuita, or the Hazuki house yard. In II, every morning there's an option to start from where you left off. It's not as feature rich as the fast travel in I, but it's not like Shenmue hasn't had fast travel before.

 

[Spaghetti]

It's pretty interesting to see Yu sat with Manabu Takimoto while he completes environment art. That's definitely a very 'hands-on' approach to direction.

I liked this picture a whole lot though. Check the golden rays spilling over the mountaintops and the blue, blue sky.

I think I spy part of a storyboard down the bottom right hand corner of the picture too, maybe they're getting to the pre-visualisation stage for cutscenes?

 

[Zafir]

The old Shenmue games are different from modern games in the area of dual language. Shenmue 1 Japanese Undub's are notorious for issues related to skipped dialogue, added dialogue for localization, and more. I'm not sure it'd be as much a problem now, but who really knows? I really hope dual audio is a thing because I want to go through it in both English and Japanese.

I'd imagine the budgetary issues is more down to the licensing.

That tends to be what stops games having both languages. It just costs them a lot to license the voices for everywhere outside Japan as well.

 

[lawtowler]

Really happy with this update. Nice to see the artwork coming along nicely.

I think the big thing for me was them finally acknowleding papyrus-gate. Let's hope they are able to get it changed back to the original logo/font. The other one just doesn't feel right.

Still can't believe we are getting Shenmue III

 

[mattp]

but..they use the correct logo sometimes
i dont get it lol

 

[Kyonashi]

Can someone explain the logo difference with pictures? I'm not sure what they're referring to, didn't realise there were upset fans.

 

[mattp]

Can someone explain the logo difference with pictures? I'm not sure what they're referring to, didn't realise there were upset fans.

they keep using this logo, which im pretty sure is just a shitty font like papyrus

but the actual shenmue logo looks like this:

which they DID use at least once, which is why its so weird that they keep using that shitty knockoff one

 

[Jo Shishido's Cheeks]

Man I never fast travel or skip time in any playthrough and never have.
I experience every single moment, the 'tedium' is part of the journey for me.
I even find it jarring how the first game condenses the bus trips. Being able to look out of the window for the whole journey to the docks would've been cool.

 

[StereoVsn]

If they don't naturally support japanese voices, surely modders will put them back in.

What if its UWP exclusive?

 

[ajim]

they keep using this logo, which im pretty sure is just a shitty font like papyrus

but the actual shenmue logo looks like this:

which they DID use at least once, which is why its so weird that they keep using that shitty knockoff one

Old one with 3 looks heaps more gorgeous and unique.

The new papyrus one is gross and has zero charm.

I sincerely hope they remove it lol

 

[muteki]

I'd imagine the budgetary issues is more down to the licensing.

That tends to be what stops games having both languages. It just costs them a lot to license the voices for everywhere outside Japan as well.

I haven't been following the project closely, but this is the first I have seen of va options in the last update.

I admit I know very little about the process but it always seemed to me if a project planned from the beginning to have JP VA world wide, that it would be less of a financial/legal hurdle than to try and re-negotiate later on in the project.

And I'd like to think for a project like this, dual audio would be a high priority from day 1, but who knows.

 

[StereoVsn]

I haven't been following the project closely, but this is the first I have seen of va options in the last update.

I admit I know very little about the process but it always seemed to me if a project planned from the beginning to have JP VA world wide, that it would be less of a financial/legal hurdle than to try and re-negotiate later on in the project.

And I'd like to think for a project like this, dual audio would be a high priority from day 1, but who knows.

I'd imagine it would be more expensive upfront vs single language only option but less expensive then trying to license it down the road. I am sure they are well aware of their options and working to make sure they don't blow the budget.

I do wish they would have dual audio, but it's better to have a completed game vs having to cut things for VA licensing. Maybe they could do a paid DLC for dual audio.

 

[Zafir]

I haven't been following the project closely, but this is the first I have seen of va options in the last update.

I admit I know very little about the process but it always seemed to me if a project planned from the beginning to have JP VA world wide, that it would be less of a financial/legal hurdle than to try and re-negotiate later on in the project.

And I'd like to think for a project like this, dual audio would be a high priority from day 1, but who knows.

Most companies think of it as an after thought because they'd rather spend the money on something else. Having dual audio isn't a necessity.

I'd imagine it would be cheaper if they negotiated it from the get go, but it still may be a pretty penny. A pretty penny that they'd rather spend on adding more content or something.

Honestly, to me it's not the end of the world. I can put up with dubs if I have to. Hell I got through Arc Rise Fantasia's dub, lol.

 

[Sectorseven]

Maybe they could make the Japanese audio paid dlc, or would people go ape shit?

 

[muteki]

Maybe they could make the Japanese audio paid dlc, or would people go ape shit?

Have people ever gone ape shit over this?

Seems like having the option or not is always such a binary thing, there were legitimate technical reasons why it couldn't happen before. I would gladly throw not insignificant money at the problem today with DLC. I'm probably not representative of many though.

I played through Shenmue dubbed and liked it just fine, but as more and more games give the option now and time has gone on my tastes have changed.

I'd imagine it would be more expensive upfront vs single language only option but less expensive then trying to license it down the road. I am sure they are well aware of their options and working to make sure they don't blow the budget.

I do wish they would have dual audio, but it's better to have a completed game vs having to cut things for VA licensing. Maybe they could do a paid DLC for dual audio.

Well, they probably have committed to doing dubs in Japanese and English at least. So there are unavoidable costs for the time and effort spent recording both, and releases in their home markets. That is spent whether dual audio is an option or not. Costs above and beyond that would be royalties paid out to the talent or studio on a per-units sold or per-region basis, or some other not fixed cost.

From a business perspective, if you were shopping around for VA work and were committed in some way to having a dual audio option, if the talent/studio just said "no", or were too pricey, you could turn down the offer and shop elsewhere. Use it as a bargaining chip. But again, I am a mere layman and don't know how competitive the industry is. But I do get the impression from several interviews with developers that the desire for dual audio in markets outside Japan is somewhat of a surprise, or something that gets attempted late in the game, and doesn't pan out because contracts are already signed.

But again, what do I know?

 

[openrob]

While 2 is better on a technical level, I prefer the first Shenmue simply for the cozy, home town atmosphere and Japanese setting.

My man right here, he knows whats up

 

[stargateheaven]

If this game will be set in japan or not?

 

[Alx]

If this game will be set in japan or not?

It will start in China, since that's where Shenmue II's plot stopped. I suppose that's where most of the episode will take place, I can only see Ryo going back to Japan once his journey is over.

 

[stargateheaven]

Then i think people should speak chinese in china and Japanese in japan. with subs

 

[Zafir]

Have people ever gone ape shit over this?

Seems like having the option or not is always such a binary thing, there were legitimate technical reasons why it couldn't happen before. I would gladly throw not insignificant money at the problem today with DLC. I'm probably not representative of many though.

I played through Shenmue dubbed and liked it just fine, but as more and more games give the option now and time has gone on my tastes have changed.



Well, they probably have committed to doing dubs in Japanese and English at least. So there are unavoidable costs for the time and effort spent recording both, and releases in their home markets. That is spent whether dual audio is an option or not. Costs above and beyond that would be royalties paid out to the talent or studio on a per-units sold or per-region basis, or some other not fixed cost.

From a business perspective, if you were shopping around for VA work and were committed in some way to having a dual audio option, if the talent/studio just said "no", or were too pricey, you could turn down the offer and shop elsewhere. Use it as a bargaining chip. But again, I am a mere layman and don't know how competitive the industry is. But I do get the impression from several interviews with developers that the desire for dual audio in markets outside Japan is somewhat of a surprise, or something that gets attempted late in the game, and doesn't pan out because contracts are already signed.

But again, what do I know?

Well, considering how early on they stated that old voice actors would return, they probably finalised it before they knew much. I'd imagine they weren't really even thinking about dual audio. That was at a stage where they didn't even know how much money they'd get.

This isn't like say Tales of which is a long running series with a known budget. Where fans had complained about lack of dual audio for years and years and years, until finally they listened for Zestiria.

 

[Killthee]

Any news on when the PC version will get added to the slacker backer page?

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

Then i think people should speak chinese in china and Japanese in japan. with subs

If I had my way, Shenmue III would have Chinese voice acting and not Japanese.

So even that situation isn't perfect.

 

[Dash Kappei]

There are parts of Shenmue I that I feel make it an overall slower game without really adding much - like having a curfew. Or only being able to pass time by playing in the arcade. I'm glad I can stay out late in Shenmue II, and also that I can fast forward time - if I had to spend days waiting to do the barbershop part, where I failed many times, I probably would have gotten all pissed off.

I kind of hope Shenmue III has a fast travel option. Having the ability for people to walk you around to your location in Shenmue II was enormous for me, and an option I used all the time, but just walking in silence is kind of dull. It'd be nice to be able to skip those parts.

You can stay out late in II??! How exactly?

 

[potatohead]

That's not true. I know because I played the Dreamcast version back then. At least here in Germany it was definitely released on Dreamcast, it had Japanese voice acting though. I don't know about other markets.

It was on DC in Europe I think.

 

[Alx]

Then i think people should speak chinese in china and Japanese in japan. with subs

But then I don't think Ryo himself speaks Chinese, if I remember correctly he had to go and find help to translate a few clues in Chinese in Shenmue I. I suppose there was no real coherent explanation to the fact that he could interact with many people when in Hong Kong.
If anything, everybody speaking English would be the most realistic explanation.

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

But then I don't think Ryo himself speaks Chinese, if I remember correctly he had to go and find help to translate a few clues in Chinese in Shenmue I. I suppose there was no real coherent explanation to the fact that he could interact with many people when in Hong Kong.
If anything, everybody speaking English would be the most realistic explanation.

He could have learned basic Mandarin and Cantonese on the ship ride over to Hong Kong. Also, by the time of Shenmue III, he's been there at least 5-6 months probably. Considering he's only 18, I can imagine immersion has made him pretty solid in basic Chinese language speaking, depending on the dialect. Remember that Joy speaks random Chinese and he can't understand, so he's definitely not fluent.

But ultimately it's a game, so considerations have to be made.

 

[Kyonashi]

they keep using this logo, which im pretty sure is just a shitty font like papyrus

but the actual shenmue logo looks like this:

which they DID use at least once, which is why its so weird that they keep using that shitty knockoff one

that's bizarre, the proper one looks so much better and they already have it...

I wonder if they took it off a fanmade site and they have to make a new one or credit the maker

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

that's bizarre, the proper one looks so much better and they already have it...

I wonder if they took it off a fanmade site and they have to make a new one or credit the maker

It's not that bizarre. In an interview with some fan sites, Yu basically says he likes it because he's heard that in English speaking countries like America, cursive is less used and harder to come by and thus harder to read for people who don't and haven't learned cursive. Hence the more simple font. Don't like the decision but I mean, it makes sense.

 

[mattp]

seriously? ugh lol
its like they just opened photoshop and typed Shenmue in a free papyrus font they got online (thats probably exactly what it is)

 

[Cindi Mayweather]

seriously? ugh lol
its like they just opened photoshop and typed Shenmue in a free papyrus font they got online (thats probably exactly what it is)

Yeah, the reasoning is sound but the font itself is garbo.

 

[Spaghetti]

Any news on when the PC version will get added to the slacker backer page?

Naw. Just the boilerplate "It will happen" from Cedric.

As for the logo, yeah. Yu's reasoning isn't too weird but the font has to change. There we some great mock-ups of non-cursive logos over on the Shenmue Dojo.

I believe a few might have been passed over to YSnet for consideration...

 

[mattp]

since when do people not understand cursive in america? where the hell did that come from haha

such a weird reason