FalsettoVibe
Member
If it's not about sales then it's about opinion. So what's the point in arguing opinion?
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Shuhei Yoshida: "We believe in the premium release of a title" before subscriptions
- Thread starter Pelta88
- Start date
If it's not about sales then it's about opinion. So what's the point in arguing opinion?
Bernd Lauert
Banned
His point was that Sony is taking risks with their AAA games, which they are clearly not doing. PSVR2 is risky, I agree.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
What's the point in stating it? It's how forums work, people state there opinion and give reason and fact to explain why they have them.
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GHG
Member
Nowhere is any of that about materialism or how much money is spent. Read, look up the prices of some of the things I mentioned, look at what some of the things I mentioned even are and try again.
So because your delusional reality is being questioned you want to run away from the discussion? Can't say I'm surprised unfortunately.
Allow me to illustrate my point perfectly:
Xbox's 2022 lineup feels as desolate as it did in 2017 | Digital Trends
Following the Xbox and Bethesda Games Showcase, Xbox's 2022 lineup is reminiscent of its lackluster slate of games in 2017.
www.digitaltrends.com
Gamepass launched in 2017. It's now 2022. It's been 5 years and nothing has changed. That's how long they've had to sort out their first party since launching the service but yet the same old pattern still repeats. "next year", "oh but the pipeline", "etc etc". They have had years like last year before, unfortunately those are fleeting and not the norm, so why should people suddenly believe it's going to be different this time when we've seen no evidence to suggest it will be? Show don't tell.
Nintendo didn't win publisher of the year last year either, do they also need to start copying the company who has shown they can't get quality games out to market on a consistent basis?
Xbox gaming revenue fell 7% during MSFT Q4 2022 despite Game Pass growth
While Xbox gaming revenue has fallen, it's not necessarily because of Xbox Game Pass.
www.shacknews.com
Like I referenced in a post above, less money overall going in to the industry over time. The increase in gamepass subs is not offsetting spend on games and dlc being down. This is what happens when you condition your customers to not spend money.
This whole thread is about them expressing their vision and not copying Xbox but yet people like you are up in arms about it. Keep up.
How many years of Gamepass does one need to lock themselves in to that results in this level of hopium and delusion?
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Tiago Rodrigues
Member
I'd say releasing 12 live service games might be the riskiest thing they've ever done. Plus they already mentioned like half of the games they have in development are new IPs.
Investing in new studios that have no games released and creating some of those new IPs as well:
Deviation Studios - Unnannounced new IP
Firewalk Studios - Unnanounced new multiplayer IP
Haven Studios - New multiplayer IP from a studio PS bought without releasing a single game.
London Studio - AAA Multiplayer Project
Housemarque - New IP
Sony Santa Monica has Cory (GOW 2018 producer) developing a new IP with a secondary team right now
Bend Studio is developing a new IP
Insomniac in addition of Wolverine and SM2 is developing a multiplayer project. Not sure if is attached to these IPs or new.
Pixelopus is developing a new project in collaboration with Sony Pictures Animations.
Bluepoint, a remake studio is developing their first original project.
Firesprite is developing multiple projects, all of them new apart from Horizon Call of the Mountain
Bungie is developing a new IP.
"No risks Playstation" in full swing huh
edit: Forgot about how xDev Japan just signed on a Team Ninja project that's also a new IP, Rise of the Ronin, plus Stellar Blade, another new IP.
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Nowhere is any of that about materialism or how much money is spent. Read, look up the prices of some of the things I mentioned, look at what some of the things I mentioned even are and try again.
So because your delusional reality is being questioned you want to run away from the discussion? Can't say I'm surprised unfortunately.
Allow me to illustrate my point perfectly:
Xbox's 2022 lineup feels as desolate as it did in 2017 | Digital Trends
Following the Xbox and Bethesda Games Showcase, Xbox's 2022 lineup is reminiscent of its lackluster slate of games in 2017.
Gamepass launched in 2017. It's now 2022. It's been 5 years and nothing has changed. That's how long they've had to sort out their first party since launching the service but yet the same old pattern still repeats. "next year", "oh but the pipeline", "etc etc". They have had years like last year before, unfortunately those are fleeting and not the norm, so why should people suddenly believe it's going to be different this time when we've seen no evidence to suggest it will be? Show don't tell.
Nintendo didn't win publisher of the year last year either, do they also need to start copying the company who has shown they can't get quality games out to market on a consistent basis?
Xbox gaming revenue fell 7% during MSFT Q4 2022 despite Game Pass growth
While Xbox gaming revenue has fallen, it's not necessarily because of Xbox Game Pass.
Like I referenced in a post above, less money overall going in to the industry over time. The increase in gamepass subs is not offsetting spend on games and dlc being down. This is what happens when you condition your customers to not spend money.
This whole thread is about them expressing their vision and not copying Xbox but yet people like you are up in arms about it. Keep up.
How many years of Gamepass does one need to lock themselves in to that results in this level of hopium and delusion?
I'm not the one who needs to break down tiers of enthusiasm to justify wanting to pay more for a product. We're cool.
GHG
Member
Again, try again. It's not about the amount of money you spend as an individual that determines any of what I said. There are people who are the biggest enthusiasts possible and spend less than those who are not. As an example, building out a physical library of games can prove to be much cheaper than building out that same library digitally (same goes for my previous movie example, a Kaleidescape is orders of magnitude more expensive than physical media). PC gamers can prove to be bigger enthusiasts than console gamers and spend less money overall in the process due to the nature of digital pricing on the platform.
Actions and attitudes matter. I'm seeing people who are quite literally going on record saying they don't give a shit about this industry (or even what they are getting) as long as their dealer hooks them up with games as cheaply as possible. Enthusiasts my arse.
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Lucifers Beard
Member
‘We believe in money before we believe in more money… money…’
Menzies
Banned
Wow, the inflammatory pejoratives are actually increasing, amazing. Your discourse is always quickly reduced to mudslinging.So because your delusional reality is being questioned you want to run away from the discussion? Can't say I'm surprised unfortunately.
Allow me to illustrate my point perfectly:
Xbox's 2022 lineup feels as desolate as it did in 2017 | Digital Trends
Following the Xbox and Bethesda Games Showcase, Xbox's 2022 lineup is reminiscent of its lackluster slate of games in 2017.
Gamepass launched in 2017. It's now 2022. It's been 5 years and nothing has changed. That's how long they've had to sort out their first party since launching the service but yet the same old pattern still repeats. "next year", "oh but the pipeline", "etc etc". They have had years like last year before, unfortunately those are fleeting and not the norm, so why should people suddenly believe it's going to be different this time when we've seen no evidence to suggest it will be? Show don't tell.
Nintendo didn't win publisher of the year last year either, do they also need to start copying the company who has shown they can't get quality games out to market on a consistent basis?
Xbox gaming revenue fell 7% during MSFT Q4 2022 despite Game Pass growth
While Xbox gaming revenue has fallen, it's not necessarily because of Xbox Game Pass.
Like I referenced in a post above, less money overall going in to the industry over time. The increase in gamepass subs is not offsetting spend on games and dlc being down. This is what happens when you condition your customers to not spend money.
This whole thread is about them expressing their vision and not copying Xbox but yet people like you are up in arms about it. Keep up.
How many years of Gamepass does one need to lock themselves in to that results in this level of hopium and delusion?
It's been 5 years and nothing has changed
Well, considering that they started at 5 studios 5 years ago and have ramped up acquisitions since then, it's fair and logical to suggest good things are actually on the horizon, unless you've got your head in the sand. But keep going with the "next year", "oh but the pipeline" quotes whilst conveniently "blah blah blahing" and utterly dismissing their last year. A good amount of AAA development these days is taking 5-6 years, not just inside Microsoft office halls.
It looks like Sony also had a dip in revenue last quarter, most likely hardware scarcity is the biggest factor here.
Yep, so Sony felt compelled to just rebrand their subscription service, increase their games portfolio, and enable game downloads because that was always their vision. I'm keeping up fine, thanks.
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
And I think cumulatively it won't be, why would you think what I was saying is not cumulative? After all I address the same things you did.
Well each individual makes up the whole... You address each individual thing as well....
Games, VR and sales are all taken into account and overall I still think 2023 will be a weaker year for PlayStation 5.
Nothing I've said about PSVR2 has been speculative. And it's not designed to downplay, it's just the reality of the situation, Also you yourself even quoted weaker social media metrics for half of Sony's 2023 line up...
You disagree and that's fine. But you should not just dismiss facts as opinion. I mean prove me wrong, what is PSVR2 doing that new and exciting? Foveated rendering has been done before, it's a great technology, no doubt image quality will be far superior, I think it will be probably the best headset available. But those are nice evolutionary improvements, at the end of the day it's the games that are the most important and from what we have seen there has been nothing better then what has already come. It needs something like half life alyx.Either way, I'm done speaking with you on this. Have a good day
The best years for the PS5 will be when we get games from naughty dog, SSM, insomniac, sucker punch and others that are made from the ground up for the PS5 and take full advantage of its hardware. 2021,2022 have been good and 2023 looks to be similar but if these are it's best years then it will be the most disappointing generation ever.
Menzies
Banned
Bernd Lauert
Banned
SLB1904
Banned
No it isn't. Wtf
Gone
Banned
As they should. It makes them so much money and fans will buy anything they put out.
However, fans defending this are the worst. Believing excuses like "our games are so good we can't put them on subscription service" is laughable at best. They can comfortably put them there and make tons of money but it'll be like giving up on hundreds of millions of dollars and that doesn't make sense from a business perspective.
However, fans defending this are the worst. Believing excuses like "our games are so good we can't put them on subscription service" is laughable at best. They can comfortably put them there and make tons of money but it'll be like giving up on hundreds of millions of dollars and that doesn't make sense from a business perspective.
geary
Member
if releasing live services is a risky business, Ubisoft is the riskiest publisher out there. If 1 of the 12 live services nails it, they will recoup all the investment in those games.
Tiago Rodrigues
Member
And yet they are going through one of the biggest droughts the company has ever seen with the last big AAA game they released already dead...developed by a studio they owned for years. It'll probably take another 9 months for their next big release as well. (either Forza or Starfield)I wonder what changed between 2017 and 2022... oh right, they quadrupled the amount of studios they own, not even counting the upcoming ABK deal. Yeah you're right, it's probably nothing
So much for big changes in 5 years.
If you read that list and all you read was "live games" then i can't help you.
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Bernd Lauert
Banned
They had the best year in Metacritic history last year. And I know many here wish for it to be true, but Halo is not dead
GHG
Member
As always.
I'm glad you acknowledged this as a universal thing. But yet it seems Microsoft seem to be the only ones who chronically have the problems they have, funny that.
Nope, hardware was actually up for them:
However it's the same old sad picture on the software/subscription front:
PlayStation’s Q1 revenues dip by 2% to $4.5 billion amid sales decline, increasing costs
Sony has released its first quarter results for the new financial year, showing a slight decline in gaming revenues. Th…
www.gamesindustry.biz
This is the problem, over time it does end up being a famine as proven by other entertainment industries that have gone down this road. It's all about control, both on the consumer and producer side - subscription services provide the perfect avenue for companies who have the capacity to loss lead to do so.
No need to set up a gofundme, just buy some games
DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
Come on man, search deep within yourself and you know its true. Those two games are bog standed ubisoft assassins creed games with a Sony budget to polish the visuals, audio, etc.
Gameplay and mission structure they are not on the level of other games. Solid 7 to 8 out of tens. Good games, definitely but not on the level of a god of war.
Definitely, this is the sad truth. The game must have cost a fortune and I can't see how it has performed well with so many codes available and cheap new and used copies on disk.
The big question is for me now is what does Sony do if and I say IF the majority of its player base skip the big titles day one due to the 70 pound prices and show that they are happy to wait until games reach ps plus extra? Or cheap second hand copies.
I feel with launching their ps plus extra service and not going all in, they risk making their dedicated fan base feel a little robbed when games come to ps plus and nurturing a mentality that players should wait. Which would affect ROI more and damage their ability to invest in big blockbusters the same way.
It's potentially just as dangerous as the fears people have over game pass.
Tiago Rodrigues
Member
Imagine saying "Sony's model" which is the same model the industry has always operated, is "uncertain".
About Horizon Forbidden West, i didn't see Sony desperate to decrease the game's price did you? It's still the 4th biggest game in the USA and only another exclusive game is ahead of it: A Pokemon game. About its completion rate...a third of everyone that clicked "new game" has finished that +50 hour single player experience. That includes everyone that received it in their PS5 bundle. That's actually an exceptionally high amount of people for a huge open world experience that has been included in hardware bundles.
So much for no one wanting to have the game i guess.
And PS5 games won't surpass 3 to 5M copies sold for the next couple years? You're saying PS5 games will only sell over 5M copies by 2025? Are you okay?
Gaf bubble really is something...
Winter John
Gold Member
"The game must have cost a fortune and I can't see how it has performed well with so many codes available"
Those codes were part of the recent PS5 bundle. I don't how the fuck you can use a bunch of stolen codes as evidence of a game's poor sales.
Those codes were part of the recent PS5 bundle. I don't how the fuck you can use a bunch of stolen codes as evidence of a game's poor sales.
Lognor
Banned
It's evidenced. People will stay subscribed for ages. Again, this is why do many companies are moving to subscription services. I know so many people that are subscribed to Netflix, Disney plus, Hulu, espn plus, prime video, and HBO max. All of them. Do you think they're watching content on all of them every month? Of course not! Who has the time?! And they're certainly not unsunscribing and resistivity resubscribing when a show they're interested in is released. That's fringe behavior. You're in the minority.
Define "would have hugely benefitted from increased exposure", benefitted in what way? Returnal released more than a year ago and is now on PS+ Extra for "free". It's getting its exposure but it's also getting its sales and dev budget. This is exactly what Yoshida is referring to.
Lognor
Banned
Hate it break it to you, but you're not an enthusiast.
Returnal and tlou part1 are both games that should have been on ps plus day one. Big missed opportunity for Sony to try to drum up subscription numbers.
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PharaoTutAnchAmun
Member
Yeah thats true a lot of 3rd party games are hitting GamePass every month. But most of them are games are 1 year ore older. Indie games are also a big part of the games in GamePass.
So you also can buy those bigger games in the gameshops and on Consolestores at a heavy discounted price. And that is what you are saying in the first part of your last line. And yes low quality games you can buy in gamestores for a very low price.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
Lol, nope. Just because GoW is a great game does not mean GoT does not compare, for me it far far far better than you give it justice and one of the most fun and engaging open world games I have ever played.
GHG
Member
This went from "we care about value" to "we're happy to milk consumers that aren't paying attention" real quick.
Well shit, going to subscribe to every gaming online rental service possible. I'll buy all the doritos necessary to get years worth of Gamepass vouchers. Please change your mind, I need you to believe in me.
Do I really need to tell you benefits of increased exposure? Just look what PS Plus launch did to Rocket League or Fall Guys
. Even Yoshida admitted that.Have this type of game in PS Plus at launch - many people would try a sub just to try this game because they were afraid to shell out 80€ for roguelike game - they will find out many great games that PS Plus have and stay subbed for a long time because there are always new games to play.
Instead Sony dumped Returnal into PS Plus at start of "new PS Plus" along with clusterfuck of games so many people don't even know it is there.
I mean it's not that hard. How do you think Game Pass grew it's subscriber base?
All that crap about "we can't afford to put our games into sub service" is just that. Crap. Or you want to pretend that TLOU Part 1 had insane budget that could not be covered by putting that game into PS Plus day one?
It's all about maximising profits. Which is cool for Sony and they are business after all. But let's not pretend that their excuses are valid.
But at the end of the day, it's great for Microsoft. They have undisputed best sub service in gaming. So let's see in few years how Sony's 80€ model would stack up against Game Pass with Call of Duty, Diablo, Fable, Indiana Jones, Forza, Gears and clusterfuck of other games day one. Because right now Game Pass grew in every quarter of 2022 and that's without even one AAA first-party game released. I guess market will decide.
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rodrigolfp
Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
Am I? What part of "Maybe" was not clear?That specific user is okay with them
Both of which are mutliplayer games with mtxs and Rocket League has loot boxes even. Returnal in its current state would not have benefitted from increased exposure in any way. Not in its current single player no mtxs state.Do I really need to tell you benefits of increased exposure? Just look what PS Plus launch did to Rocket League or Fall Guys
Have this type of game in PS Plus at launch - many people would try a sub just to try this game because they were afraid to shell out 80€ for roguelike game - they will find out many great games that PS Plus have and stay subbed for a long time because there are always new games to play.
Gamepass grew its base by doing the same, dumping their old single player ones with a clusterfuck of games. Not sure what you're complaining about.
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You put Returnal into PS Plus day one - Many people will pay a sub so they can try it for cheap. Since many people are trying a game, many people are talking about a game, which is bringing attention to your game/sub service - Many people stay subbed because they will find out there is XYZ other games in sub service they would like to play after Returnal - you have subbed person that is paying you 13,99€ per month. See?
That's exactly what Microsoft is doing. They released Psychonauts 2 (for example) into Game Pass. Many people subbed and stayed subbed because next month they had Forza Horizon 5. And next moth another game etc.
You are effectively using your first-party games as a bait for people to sub into your service and then you are making sure they stay subbed by offering them more first-party/third-party content.
It's really not that hard to understand. Just look how many people subbed to PS Now compared to Game Pass. That's what inclusion of first-party into your sub service will bring you.
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
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So you are saying it will benefit the growth of the sub and not the game, yeah no shit, and once subs saturate? You said increased exposure will benefit the game, it doesnt in any way and sometimes even makes the game worse depending on how they decide to monetise it .
Yoshida said:
"The new PS Plus has tiers and essentially it’s like the old PS Plus, we still release two or three new games every month and a new tier, Extra, has a catalogue of hundreds of games for people to play. For Extra, our approach [is] we like to help the publishers [with] lifecycle management. I was managing first-party [at PlayStation] so I know that it’s like in the movies — a movie comes out at the theatre first, then goes to pay per view, or a subscription service, or free TV, every time generating new revenue and reaching out to a broader audience."
That's it. He believes in selling games instead of a sub and using a sub to increase exposure during a games life cycle (ie selling games when sales have dried).
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GHG
Member
They are all in it for the business of making money first and foremost.
However, some companies are confident enough in their games that they are happy to sell them directly to the consumer without needing to subsidise them or give them away via a subscription service. Some companies don't need to create the illusion of "value" in order to justify their existence. Hence this thread.
Yeah. We already saw how Sony's sub service is increasing exposure of games during live cycle with PS Now. Service that almost everybody ignored and which had beautiful attach ratio to PS4 consoles sold of 2%
Look. It's not that hard to understand. Sony wants to maximise profits. It is not about "we can't afford it." It's about "we want maximum amount of money from sales and then hope to increase popularity of our sub service by dumping that game into PS Plus." And I said that it is cool, because they are business. But right now they can't compete with Game Pass even with Microsoft dropping a huge ball with first-party games in 2022. So how tf they want to build a solid subscription service when Microsoft will finally get their shit together next year?
Sony thinks that they magically can do both things at once. But they can't be done. You either "sacrifice" part of sales of your first-party games to build continuous revenue stream through subscription service or you are relying on standard "we are selling our games for 80€" model that won't grow your service.
Haggard
Banned
Your anecdotal evidence is worthless.
Until they aren`t anymore, see the Netflix development, which is actual real statistical evidence.
You want to believe I am, big difference.
Yeah. We already saw how Sony's sub service is increasing exposure of games during live cycle with PS Now. Service that almost everybody ignored and which had beautiful attach ratio to PS4 consoles sold of 2%
Look. It's not that hard to understand. Sony wants to maximise profits. It is not about "we can't afford it." It's about "we want maximum amount of money from sales and then hope to increase popularity of our sub service by dumping that game into PS Plus." And I said that it is cool, because they are business. But right now they can't compete with Game Pass even with Microsoft dropping a huge ball with first-party games in 2022. So how tf they want to build a solid subscription service when Microsoft will finally get their shit together next year?
Sony thinks that they magically can do both things at once. But they can't be done. You either "sacrifice" part of sales of your first-party games to build continuous revenue stream through subscription service or you are relying on standard "we are selling our games for 80€" model that won't grow your service.
So your logic is taking the piss that attach rate is 2% so go hail mary and lose your main source of income for successful games too. Great idea.
Arguably this year PS+ Extra has been better than GP in terms of library of games added but there has been little benefit. PS+ Extra doesn't have the GP Jehovah's Witnesses or marketers who seem so invested.
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
Water is wet.
Ehh, nope.
Because inclusion of your game into sub service day one does not mean that game will sold 0 copies. Which is obvious when you go to SteamDB and see how popular are games like Sea of Thieves, Forza Horizon or Flight Sim on Steam despite them being in Game Pass at release. So yeah, you are sacrificing part of sales of your first-party games to build your sub service, but not all sales of course.
Of course PS+ Extra had better dump of content. Because PS Now had shovelware so Sony had so much to catch up that they end up adding games that already are or were on Game Pass eons ago (games like Metro Exodus, Guardians of the Galaxy etc.). But at the end of the day, it's about Day One stuff. Nobody cares that you can watch Witcher in your local TV in 2 years after Netflix airing. You want to watch it when it is out.
yurinka
Member
It means the business model:What’s a “ premium “ release? Lol premium for whom exactly? Sonys pockets? Is he trying to say games like gears of war 5 and forza horizon 5 are not premium??That’s pretty arrogant shu.
- Premium: paid games (focus on game purchase)
- Freemium: F2P games (focus on microtansactions/DLC/season passes)
- GaaS: game as a service (periodical post launch content, focus on microtansactions/DLC/season passes)
Which makes sense because their main games sell over 10-20M copies, they are market leaders in console install base, selling games for consoles and console game subs, plus they generate more revenue than any console maker in gaming history and are making more profit than they ever had.
It would be really stupid to reject all the money and success and copy instead the financially suicide, unprofitable financial strategy of the third/last guys on the console (and particularly console game subs too) race.
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Bernd Lauert
Banned
Yet again you're acting like Xbox games aren't being sold. Must be the UK boxed sales Neogaf bubble or something.
Speaking of the illusion of value, Sony does it too by doing deep sales and bundles. The only company who is 100% confident in its games is Nintendo. Just looked up Zelda on the eshop, still €70 lmao
Bumblebeetuna
Member
It amazes me how people always seem to forget that all games in GamePass are sold outside of the service.
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