Support NeoGAF

[SkylineRKR]

This should set a new benchmark if its that good. Others need to up their game. FF has a run of like 30 years, that turned out well did it? FFXVI is kind of a turd without the slightest hint of exploration. In terms of features, that game seems laughable compared to BG3. How many years is SE working on their new FF game every time and how much funds are being thrown to it? It should be far more than Larian has on hand.

Like how TW3 kind of murdered Dragon Age: I. It should've make BioWare to go back to the drawing board, which we known didn't exactly happen.

 

[HazukiSensei]

I don't agree with the devs sentiment that you shouldnt compare or use a game as a standard at all. That's a terrible mindset

however, I dont get why they are acting like this toward BG3....when the Witcher 3 aimed to achieve the same thing in 2015, and was arguably more ambitious due to the fact that it wasn't a turn based point and click. like, most of those devs aren't making a turn based point and click so I'm not sure why they are acting like that lol

hell, cyberpunk must've terrified most devs then prior to release. That was actually even more ambitious, let's be honest; while also crossing into alot of different peoples territory. Competed with bethesda, competed with rpgs, competed with sandbox games etc. If that released adored universally, then there'd be a problem.

I always had a theory that if bg3 scares devs, then Cyberpunk probably had a hit job done on it lol As in, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some foul play around the whole "cp2077 is transphobic" fiasco.

 

[HazukiSensei]

This should set a new benchmark if its that good. Others need to up their game. FF has a run of like 30 years, that turned out well did it? FFXVI is kind of a turd without the slightest hint of exploration. In terms of features, that game seems laughable compared to BG3. How many years is SE working on their new FF game every time and how much funds are being thrown to it? It should be far more than Larian has on hand.

Like how TW3 kind of murdered Dragon Age: I. It should've make BioWare to go back to the drawing board, which we known didn't exactly happen.

yeah they didn't even try anymore lol

but remember bethesda was trying to do damage control on the Witcher 3 also.

"don't compare, because they don't do what WE do"

and I thought, "wow, that's a terrible mindset, they literally made a open world rpg with unheard of quest quality consistent til the end. modern elder scrolls can learn from that"

but nope, they waited until cyberpunk had a bad launch and people forgot that bethesda gave up on quest writing lol

 

[Karak]

I don't agree with the devs sentiment that you shouldnt compare or use a game as a standard at all. That's a terrible mindset

however, I dont get why they are acting like this toward BG3....when the Witcher 3 aimed to achieve the same thing in 2015, and was arguably more ambitious due to the fact that it wasn't a turn based point and click. like, most of those devs aren't making a turn based point and click so I'm not sure why they are acting like that lol

hell, cyberpunk must've terrified most devs then prior to release. That was actually even more ambitious, let's be honest; while also crossing into alot of different peoples territory. Competed with bethesda, competed with rpgs, competed with sandbox games etc. If that released adored universally, then there'd be a problem.

I always had a theory that if bg3 scares devs, then Cyberpunk probably had a hit job done on it lol As in, I wouldn't be surprised if there was some foul play around the whole "cp2077 is transphobic" fiasco.

Cyberpunk created its on verb in dev circles. The number of times I have been told by a dev "We don't want to cyberpunk people" is countless.

 

[Buggy Loop]

yeah they didn't even try anymore lol

but remember bethesda was trying to do damage control on the Witcher 3 also.

"don't compare, because they don't do what WE do"

and I thought, "wow, that's a terrible mindset, they literally made a open world rpg with unheard of quest quality consistent til the end. modern elder scrolls can learn from that"

but nope, they waited until cyberpunk had a bad launch and people forgot that bethesda gave up on quest writing lol

But Bethesda was right though

They’re vastly different

 

[FullMetalx117]

With enough time passing, meritocracy or even survival of the fittest should win in the end. Devs can complain about not reaching standards all they want, if they don’t adjust/adapt, then they will eventually get replaced with people who can do the job. Lots of people out there - only a few saw Larian coming

 

[BouncyFrag]

Excellence has become a four letter word. Smh

 

[HazukiSensei]

But Bethesda was right though

They’re vastly different

there are areas for comparison.

non level scaling and quests writing, like I said. is where they should have drawn comparison. even bringing back weapon durability to increase the importance of each weapon. but primarily....quests.

both games have them. why pretend like bethesda suddenly should act like they don't make quests also?

to say that bethesda should ignore that is giving them an out. Witcher 3 has more in common with skyrim than most of these games do with baldurs gate

hell cdpr even said that bethesda was a clear inspiration for the why they wanted to jump into open world

 

[HazukiSensei]

Cyberpunk created its on verb in dev circles. The number of times I have been told by a dev "We don't want to cyberpunk people" is countless.

yeah but I'm talking about...how did they feel beforehand? not after the fact. because cp2077 was more ambitious in its tech, gameplay, and scope than this game was. that's a fact. regardless of a Buggy release.

and...let's be real. most of those dev circles still didnt make a better game than cp2077. let's not pretend it didn't still have the quests and world of a cdpr game.

alot of those devs say that, then go on to release an assassins creed game of sorts.

 

[Guilty_AI]

however, I dont get why they are acting like this toward BG3....when the Witcher 3 aimed to achieve the same thing in 2015, and was arguably more ambitious due to the fact that it wasn't a turn based point and click. like, most of those devs aren't making a turn based point and click so I'm not sure why they are acting like that lol

Because regardless of it being turn based or point-and-click, its still a AAA production RPG with a degree of interactivity a game like The Witcher 3 can just fantasize about.

Only Bethesda games can compare, yet BG3 also brings to the table narrative, characters and overall presentation that is on par with CDPR games. So basically we have on our hands a game that unifies the best of both worlds. Thats why some devs are acting like this.

 

[Ribi]

so then star citizen is getting right? make up ya minds

 

[HazukiSensei]

Because regardless of it being turn based or point-and-click, its still a AAA production RPG with a degree of interactivity a game like The Witcher 3 can just fantasize about.

Only Bethesda games can compare, yet BG3 also brings to the table narrative, characters and overall presentation that is on par with CDPR games. So basically we have on our hands a game that unifies the best of both worlds. Thats why some devs are acting like this.

Dude c'mon. If it was a true combination of both worlds, every single player of elder scrolls and the Witcher 3 would be all over it. I don't think that's the case. Hence why many players like me or Asmongold etc arent jumping on it like that. why do you think that is? might have something to do with a certain gameplay style. that matters.

not everyone is going to look at this type of game and say "that's the dream right there!" and you and I both know it. luckily there is base that already appreciates this genre...so it'll sell, and that's what you are seeing. But its selling more on word of mouth and trending, rather than hyping people purely on what you are seeing like a cyberpunk did, or a half life 2 did, or a mass effect did. get what I mean? or are we going to act obtuse about that?

This is why the Witcher 3, and cyberpunk were more ambitious...they actually chased the complete dream. they were aware of the idea that...the "dream game" for the wide audience, isn't point and click and isnt turn based. it's just not. I think we as gamers can agree on that to a point, despite this title selling well (like I said, there is a large PC audience that appreciates that genre)

and wasn't turn base, for most part, originally concocted to more or less compensate for the fact that live combat wouldn't be feasible for the titles mechanics in older times?

 

[Guilty_AI]

Dude c'mon. If it was a true combination of both worlds, every single player of elder scrolls and the Witcher 3 would be all over it. I don't think that's the case. Hence why many player like me or Asmongold etc arent jumping on it like that. why do you think that is? might have something to do with a certain gameplay style. that matters.

eh, are you sure they aren't? Lets see:

The Witcher 3 players:

Skyrim SE players:

Elder scrolls online players:

Now lets see Baldurs Gate 3:

So, unless there were a number of hidden turn based fans that numbered more than The Witcher 3, Skyrim and ESO fans combined, i think its fair to assume the playerbase does overlap.

 

[HazukiSensei]

eh, are you sure they aren't? Lets see:

The Witcher 3 players:

Skyrim SE players:

Elder scrolls online players:

Now lets see Baldurs Gate 3:

So, unless there were a number of hidden turn based fans that numbered more than The Witcher 3, Skyrim and ESO fans combined, i think its fair to assume the playerbase does overlap.

and yet this games total copies sold won't eclipse these games. this just tells me that there's...probably not as much to play at this given moment than those respective years lol

so look, are you arguing that point and click D&D style gameplay is just as marketable as live action combat In a AAA production? Are we really disagreeing on that? I'm curious.

because I don't think that the ambition here is any more "scary" than what say...cyberpunk was presenting prior to release.

 

[FinalBossWithTheMostPower]

Dude c'mon. If it was a true combination of both worlds, every single player of elder scrolls and the Witcher 3 would be all over it. I don't think that's the case. Hence why many players like me or Asmongold etc arent jumping on it like that. why do you think that is? might have something to do with a certain gameplay style. that matters.

not everyone is going to look at this type of game and say "that's the dream right there!" and you and I both know it. luckily there is base that already appreciates this genre...so it'll sell, and that's what you are seeing. But its selling more on word of mouth and trending, rather than hyping people purely on what you are seeing like a cyberpunk did, or a half life 2 did, or a mass effect did. get what I mean? or are we going to act obtuse about that?

This is why the Witcher 3, and cyberpunk were more ambitious...they actually chased the complete dream. they were aware of the idea that...the "dream game" for the wide audience, isn't point and click and isnt turn based. it's just not. I think we as gamers can agree on that to a point, despite this title selling well (like I said, there is a large PC audience that appreciates that genre)

and wasn't turn base, for most part, originally concocted to more or less compensate for the fact that live combat wouldn't be feasible for the titles mechanics in older times?

Everything matters.

I have an extreme distaste for isometric and not the slightest bit of interest in D&D, and after watching some gameplay, I was sold.

 

[Guilty_AI]

and yet this games total copies sold won't eclipse these games. this just tells me that there's...probably not as much to play at this given moment than those respective years lol

Never learn do you. See you on the "BG3 reached 5-10 million copies sold" in a few months. Maybe weeks.

 

[Minsc]

Never learn do you. See you on the "BG3 reached 5-10 million copies sold" in a few months. Maybe weeks.

Google says Skyrim is at 60 million so far, and probably still good for another 30-40 million easy. It'll get a huge bump when TES VI comes out as well. There's almost no way it doesn't make it over 100 million copies. How many games really can sell 100 million copies?

 

[HazukiSensei]

Never learn do you. See you on the "BG3 reached 5-10 million copies sold" in a few months. Maybe weeks.

you didn't answer my question...

is turn base/point and click the "dream game" to the majority? and don't act obtuse about this question, I detailed what I mean numerous times.

was its origins not derived from the fact that devs needed to compensate for the fact that live gameplay was less feasible for the internal systems of the game, or even their own ability (and the times.)

I think baldurs gate 3 is selling in spite of that less desirable gameplay style. certainly not because of it. helps that the internet is making it the cool thing to do right now also.

 

[ShadyAcshuns]

What some of these devs are saying: "You really shouldn't expect this in many games".

What I heard: "Please don't expect us to try harder than we already don't".

More reason to only buy games that "over deliver" such as this one. Most devs must really either hate us
as gamers, or just think laughably little of us as consumers.

 

[Varteras]

you didn't answer my question...

is turn base/point and click the "dream game" to the majority? and don't act obtuse about this question, I detailed what I mean numerous times.

was its origins not derived from the fact that devs needed to compensate for the fact that live gameplay was less feasible for the internal systems of the game, or even their own ability (and the times.)

I think baldurs gate 3 is selling in spite of that less desirable gameplay style. certainly not because of it. helps that the internet is making it the cool thing to do right now also.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Good to see the devs pushing back a bit.

Funding came from Larian own pocket.

Of course I will be supporting this game when it hits consoles.

Also I don't think all RPGs need to have $150 million budget like BG3. Not all dialogue needs to be voiced, matched by an expressive cutscenes. I am fine with reading stuff as long as it's good and enjoyable.

 

[hyperbertha]

I didn't dislike the trailer, but what the fuck were they thinking by releasing this screenshot?

The art style is fine. It's just the color choices in that section that's vomit inducing.

 

[Dr_Salt]

Tbh there is a huge lesson to be learned. All devs should be putting their games out on early access as soon as it's playable. The 3 years of $60 early access this got shaped it into a masterpiece. Gamers will provide good feedback and are willing to pay full price for a incomplete game

In all fairness the early access had more content than many full games.

 

[L*][*N*K]

"Please don't judge our shitty games based on the great game that you are currently playing, we suck"

 

[Hestar69]

This had to be a square dev saying this.

I wish ff16 was 1/10th as good or as interesting as BG3

 

[Sleepwalker]

you didn't answer my question...

is turn base/point and click the "dream game" to the majority? and don't act obtuse about this question, I detailed what I mean numerous times.

was its origins not derived from the fact that devs needed to compensate for the fact that live gameplay was less feasible for the internal systems of the game, or even their own ability (and the times.)

I think baldurs gate 3 is selling in spite of that less desirable gameplay style. certainly not because of it. helps that the internet is making it the cool thing to do right now also.

Dude was so triggered by an incredible game selling well that he went on a pointless crusade for weeks. Good riddance.

 

[anthraticus]

Larian....the new Bioware

 

[EviLore]

Larian....the new Bioware

"I just want a friend, not a gay relationship" is a fair complaint I think. That goes for the female party members you just want to be friends with too. It's legitimately annoying how aggressive most of the non-flippant dialogue options are with all the members of your team, a tightrope walk to avoid either expressing sexual interest or them expressing interest in you. I just want to hear their stories and be a supportive team leader, basically. Talk to any of them though and next thing you know you have a lot of sexual dialogue options or a harsh rejection option. I've stopped interacting with the party members a lot of the time because it gets tiring.

I think it's fine for someone like Astarion to keep making advances and innuendo after you tell him you're not interested, since he's a deviant vampire, part of his character traits, but people like Gale, Wyll, Halsin, etc., it doesn't really make sense there. There are too many ambiguous dialogue options, too. Like you choose "cheers, *raise glass*" and that's supposed to mean "let's bang" apparently, and you have to then de-escalate awkwardly. Would really prefer clearer boundaries.

 

[AV]

"I just want a friend, not a gay relationship" is a fair complaint I think. That goes for the female party members you just want to be friends with too. It's legitimately annoying how aggressive most of the non-flippant dialogue options are with all the members of your team, a tightrope walk to avoid either expressing sexual interest or them expressing interest in you. I just want to hear their stories and be a supportive team leader, basically. Talk to any of them though and next thing you know you have a lot of sexual dialogue options or a harsh rejection option. I've stopped interacting with the party members a lot of the time because it gets tiring.

I think it's fine for someone like Astarion to keep making advances and innuendo after you tell him you're not interested, since he's a deviant vampire, part of his character traits, but people like Gale, Wyll, Halsin, etc., it doesn't really make sense there. There are too many ambiguous dialogue options, too. Like you choose "cheers, *raise glass*" and that's supposed to mean "let's bang" apparently, and you have to then de-escalate awkwardly. Would really prefer clearer boundaries.

Yeah, spot on. It was literally overnight that 3 companions suddenly wanted to jump my bones just because I'd chatted to each of them at camp the same amount every previous night. Would be better if you initiated romances specifically by choosing romance-y dialogues. Fair enough if some characters just fall in love with the PC on their own terms, but maybe not ALL of them.

 

[cartman414]

Well this is a weird take.

You know at Biowares peak they created Kotor, Jade Empire and Dragon Age 1, which were amazing games that only took about 20-30 hours to complete but gave you many options that had them replayable, right?

It's why I can play KotoR so much, I can finish it in 15 hours and still feel like every playthrough is unique enough to do it again.

How ironic after all this time people don't realize they also did THE. ORIGINAL. TWO... Baldur's Gates in their prime. Which were still better than most anything else after years.

 

[cartman414]

Because regardless of it being turn based or point-and-click, its still a AAA production RPG with a degree of interactivity a game like The Witcher 3 can just fantasize about.

Only Bethesda games can compare, yet BG3 also brings to the table narrative, characters and overall presentation that is on par with CDPR games. So basically we have on our hands a game that unifies the best of both worlds. Thats why some devs are acting like this.

I felt that Divinity Original Sin 2 bitchslapped Witcher 3 into next year, to say nothing of BG3.

 

[GigaBowser]

Anyone gets this on Geforce Now I don't play points and clicks but all the goord news I mights try?

 

[Puscifer]

According to this website, the development of Dragon Age: Origins took about 6 years, and towards the end, a considerable amount of crunch was required. The games I mentioned were recent RPG titles. According to this website, Pillars of Eternity was developed in close to 3 years and was released in 2015. The game Tyranny, also from the same company, was released in 2016, and Pillars of Eternity 2 was released in 2018. Similar low-budget RPGs had become quite prevalent in recent times - that's what I was referring to, actually. I'm not saying the games were bad, but it was evident that they weren't made to revolutionize the RPG genre.

Ok I see what you're saying now, my mistake. But yeah you are right that actual rpgs like that basically became high res versions of what we got in the 90s for better or worse. From what I've seen this seems like a great sequel to dragon age origins we never got

 

[elmos-acc]

I disagree with the devs - this is the new standard. Not every subsequent game needs to be up to that standard in every way, but you can bet your ass that most people eill agree that the scope of your game is a lot smaller and eventually, we want a competitor to try and outdo BG3 - to further this medium.

However, the devs are right that if we hate on everything that is not huge like GTA, we are not going to get Sleeping Dogs or Yakuza. I don't think it is necessarily the best direction for the whole industry place their bets to pursue the biggest and most complex end results, especially when budgets and development cycles are already unsustainable.

 

[Lunarorbit]

Remember all the bitching after the witcher 3 came out and dragon age looked like a lump of coal. I liked inquisition though and they were very different games.

Devs complaining about bg3 are idiots.

 

[KXVXII9X]

With enough time passing, meritocracy or even survival of the fittest should win in the end. Devs can complain about not reaching standards all they want, if they don’t adjust/adapt, then they will eventually get replaced with people who can do the job. Lots of people out there - only a few saw Larian coming

I'm not a big fan of "survival of the fittest" but I would like for there to be less defensiveness and delusion about how good their games are. The amounts of times I have seen Devs/Publishers hype up their games to high heaven while not even achieving the level of polish and gameplay innovations two generations before. I see so many cashing in on already made ideas while not being executed as well, thinking they will make the next big hit.

I also blame gamers for not holding the Devs to higher standards. The amounts of times I have seen others say that jank, animations, and overall polish doesn't matter is concerning. The same with others undervaluing games and then wanting to pirate them.

Many studios choose choices based on profit instead of art, but they never admit it. That is what pisses me off. They dress it up in fancy PR speak.

 

[sinnergy]

I disagree with the devs - this is the new standard. Not every subsequent game needs to be up to that standard in every way, but you can bet your ass that most people eill agree that the scope of your game is a lot smaller and eventually, we want a competitor to try and outdo BG3 - to further this medium.

However, the devs are right that if we hate on everything that is not huge like GTA, we are not going to get Sleeping Dogs or Yakuza. I don't think it is necessarily the best direction for the whole industry place their bets to pursue the biggest and most complex end results, especially when budgets and development cycles are already unsustainable.

I only expect , the dev makes a product that they love and will resonate with their audience with care and passion , and hope they earn enough money . And for most part game breaking bugs free. I have a believe that the sweat and passion that goes into a project will make you money .

 

[elmos-acc]

I only expect , the dev makes a product that they love and will resonate with their audience with care and passion , and hope they earn enough money . And for most part game breaking bugs free. I have a believe that the sweat and passion that goes into a project will make you money .

Definitely. When people in this thread talk about lack of talent for the devs, I attribute it to the lack of vision or skills to execute the vision of the game directors, people calling the shots. Maybe the executives in studios and publishers are way too risk averse or out of touch to achieve greatness. Plenty of great games flop, and innovation might be too time consuming to test whether the game is even marketable. Whenever we get something that has been love and care put into it, it usually works out pretty well no matter the budget and scope. Unless someone were to argue that Anthem or The Avengers had care and love put into it.

The gaming industry is highly competitive field, I think there is plenty of talent in each studio. The studios just do not care enough about making memorable and new experiences.

 

[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

A CDPR dev who worked on Cyberpunk 2077 chimed in on the topic as well.

 

[StereoVsn]

I dunno, I preferred the dinner.

Breakfast is most important meal of the day!

 

[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

Dev/Animator at Sony Bend Studio also shares his thoughts on the recent IGN video

 

[Kataploom]

Not into this type of games but I'm happy it exists, the industry needed some big exponents in more niche genres. This is kinda what happens with Nintendo, they find success in genres like cartoon-ey 3D platformers and Kart racing, genres other big devs won't ever touch and it pays off... Apart from that other smaller devs follow and industry diversifies

 

[AlteredForms]

I'm a little sceptical about the drama and "worry" surrounding BGIII. All I've heard are a handful of developers who work in similar genres voice either bitching or praising the game's reception. To me when something makes an impact on the industry that forces others to reschedule their releases and take notes would be akin to the GTA V release or something of similar magnitude.

 

[Jboemios]

I have not played any Baldurs Gate. Can some explain what did BG3 do to make it superior to other rpgs?

 

[Gaelyon]

I have not played any Baldurs Gate. Can some explain what did BG3 do to make it superior to other rpgs?

Everythings ?
But to summarize :
- Huge game with tons of content (large maps, secrets, side quests, many classes and races choices etc.) all of it very well done.
- Most of this huge content is optional. Most of it is solvable with many ways (you can brute force, you can negotiate, you can lie and deceive, you can avoid, you can botch ... and with different outcomes, and the story still goes on.
- The game acknowledge all your choices and the story is modified according to it. Choices and consequences. Many endings and many changes along the way.
- Lots of roleplaying options. You can decide how to react to every situation, you can side, ignore, annihilate many groups or factions. You can recruit or kill many unique NPCs.
- Tactical combat with environment, placement crucial to success. Water can freeze or conduct electricity. Volatile material explode with fire. Doors or pilars can be broken. Opponent (or yourself) can be pushed to their death or any hazard, and so on. Of course they're hundreds of spells, equipment and objects that generate those kind of mayhem.
- All NPCs dialogs are audio played by professional actors. Main characters are for the most part good to awesome.
- No online required, no MTX, no DLC, no battle pass etc. all the game is there, complete with lots of replayabilities.
- You can play full solo, duo coop with share screen or online coop with up to 4 players, with mouse/keyboard or controller. And it work !

 

[MidGenRefresh]

I have not played any Baldurs Gate. Can some explain what did BG3 do to make it superior to other rpgs?

Short version: It puts role play back into RPG. It's the best video game adaptation of a table top RPG ever made.

 

[cartman414]

Ok I see what you're saying now, my mistake. But yeah you are right that actual rpgs like that basically became high res versions of what we got in the 90s for better or worse. From what I've seen this seems like a great sequel to dragon age origins we never got

DA: O itself was a spiritual successor to the original Baldur's Gate games.

 

[KyoZz]

Short version: It puts role play back into RPG. It's the best video game adaptation of a table top RPG ever made.

Yeah! And some people don't understand why I'm angry at the latest Assassin's Creed calling himself an RPG.

"But there is a skill tree"

 

[jorgejjvr]

So this is the right thread then

 

[Buggy Loop]

there are areas for comparison.

non level scaling and quests writing, like I said. is where they should have drawn comparison. even bringing back weapon durability to increase the importance of each weapon. but primarily....quests.

both games have them. why pretend like bethesda suddenly should act like they don't make quests also?

to say that bethesda should ignore that is giving them an out. Witcher 3 has more in common with skyrim than most of these games do with baldurs gate

hell cdpr even said that bethesda was a clear inspiration for the why they wanted to jump into open world

Persistence

No other RPG even has anywhere near the level of persistence as the Bethesda RPGs do, not on the same scale/same fidelity. And on top of supporting a complex modding system in a dynamic open world sandbox. Do peoples think it's just "easy" to make that? They are so incredibly complex and dynamic that they become immersive sims.

Witcher 3 has many qualities, but none of the above.