It's way too scatterbrained, there are about 20-30 games discussed in this latest video. Why not limit the scope and make assertions based on the patterns present in games she's played? How many games has she actually played that were mentioned in this discussion?
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Tropes Vs. Women Episode 2 - Damsels In Distress Part [spoiler warning]
- Thread starter Mesoian
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It's way too scatterbrained, there are about 20-30 games discussed in this latest video. Why not limit the scope and make assertions based on the patterns present in games she's played? How many games has she actually played that were mentioned in this discussion?
A Link to the Past
Banned
Timeline:
Tetra appears as an independent character.
Tetra becomes Zelda.
Tetra leaves the plot.
Zelda gets kidnapped.
Bastion of progress people
Relaxed Muscle
Member
She grown up enough to became a pirate and command a bunch of adults that respect her as her leader....
I dunno, pretty much every example she made had inexcusably bad writing. Even back in't ye olde days, just because a game's story was crude and being told on a limited medium didn't necessarily mean it was shitty. She exclusively highlighted games that had shitty narratives; whether that was to the detriment of the final product or not is not something I'm discussing, or willing to discuss within the framing of this documentary.
She even states herself that people can enjoy these games, regardless of the issues she raised, and that's not a problem. She said games that she argues have sexist tropes are not bad games, or can't be enjoyed just because of that. Likewise, the same applies to games with shitty writing.
That said, I think she did an excellent job of highlighting really bad plots, and in some places there are definitely some instances where patriarchal attitudes prevail in the trope (and could even be considered the primary reason as to why the narrative is so fucking terrible), but I think many of her examples were also just shitty writing being conflated with the gender issues she raises.
It wasn't bad at all, mind. Hopefully, for some people who watch this, it can give them a grounding in issues that affect women in the 21st century and I'm really not opposed to that. I just feel that pretty much every issue she raised about these games and their tropes could be remedied by having a good writer work on the game.
It's back online. Let the incredibly stupid discussion recommence!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toa_vH6xGqs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toa_vH6xGqs
Ill say here what I said during hte last megathread surrounding this issue.
I don't particularly like these videos all that much, and I'm waiting for the next person who comes after her who can really knock it out of the park and appeal to me on a personal level, as Anita simply can't, for whatever reason.
But until that person comes, I'll keep listening to what Anita has to say.
mullet2000
Member
My post came off as more antagonistic then I meant it to. Sorry about that. Also it wasn't just directed at you, but the video as well.
I just think it's silly to just limit the character to "Jackie's" narratively, and act as if it's a problem like she is doing. It isn't a problem and her and Jackie's relationship is one of my favorite in a game.
Mauricio_Magus
Banned
Spoilers, the video.
I seriously can't believe anyone hears this woman(including myself)
I seriously can't believe anyone hears this woman(including myself)
Byronic Hero
Member
That's not correct at all.
then why do you care?
That it is. I'll put up my mirror when it finishes...whatever it's doing.
Let's not get into this. Games are a medium that is capable of:
A) Telling a story (no matter how crappily at times, and yes crappily is a word I just made up).
B) Invoking emotion.
C) Widening the imagination.
D) Influencing others, albeit nowhere near as powerfully as other mediums.
It's a platform of creativity, and there are a lot of people that are passionate about it. Whether you want to label it as art is not important. It is big and important enough to warrant a discussion.
1.Wat
2.I don't think WW is sexist at all. I dislike Tetra's treatment, but I wouldn't call the game sexist.
3.Linebeck is a massive tool, end of discussion.
Yeah that sounds about right.
That's a fair critique, she can and should cite more prior research in her video when she presents the terms for her tropes. I wonder if she consciously omitted them for some reason. It could be an ego thing, but the best thing to do is ask her.
I suppose the volume of games was there to quell arguments that "these are isolated incidents".
DragonSworne
Banned
-_-
The damn wikipedia page for feminism is just a point of view for other topics and areas of scholarly work. That's why you can't make your subject of work BE feminism and expect it to withstand rigor and analsyis. This is equavilent to making your subject of work a political party since a political party is nothing more than a point of view. It does not stand up on it's own.
A Link to the Past
Banned
So a pirate leader has the same personality and setup as a ruler of a kingdom.
It's a list of excuses for why The Wind Waker making a character less independent, less important, less "sassy", isn't a bad thing. She went from a leadership role that leaned far more towards chaotic, and then when she went in a far more lawful direction, her personality completely changed. There was no transition. It was bad storytelling.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I just can't listen to Anita. She seems to do more harm than good for the most part.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Deadlight is spoilered as well. Is not listed as well.
Not realities? In what way?
Men don't have problems with rejection? I'd say you're wrong.
Men and women don't refer to cute things as childlike? I'd say you're wrong.
Women are usually not weak and childlike? I'd say you're right.
Those fantasies don't exist to dispel their own social issues? I'd say you're wrong.
What is called male power fantasies don't have a near complete lack of possibilities for rejection in them? I'd say you're wrong.
Wow lol. You are just making this up entirely by yourself.
Based on what? This is entirely in your imagination. She more than proves to me that she's capable of being a princess in WW. And honestly, it has nothing to do with this conversation. You honestly don't think she understood how to not act like a complete brat, ever? You think she's mentally incapable of that?
Tetra exists after. Again, you just made this up entirely. Tetra is in the sequel, and she exists, despite your active imagination. Actually in the sequel, we see only Tetra and not Zelda - the opposite of what you're saying.
Zelda Wiki said:
http://zeldawiki.org/Tetra
Deciding to keep it is massively telling, then. Did she, at any point, ask people to stop donating? If her goal was to truly do analysis on a subject, and she felt $6000 was sufficient, she would have donated anything exceeding that. She did have eternal stretch goals, at least going to $26,000 , so she clearly wasn't opposed to using the excess money. I think that this excess money should be used on furthering the core project, providing alternative views, or being donated to charity. I believe that, as a subject, introspective analysis like this isn't constructive.
A Link to the Past
Banned
1.Wat
2.I don't think WW is sexist at all. I dislike Tetra's treatment, but I wouldn't call the game sexist.
3.Linebeck is a massive tool, end of discussion.
Yeah that sounds about right.
I liked Linebeck BECAUSE he was a massive tool.
Optimus Lime
(L3) + (R3) | Spartan rage activated
But, that's silly for two reasons.
Firstly - you'll take Anita seriously because you feel that there's nobody else? That's an extremely strange thing to say.
Secondly, there ARE other people to pay attention to, who aren't empty polemicists.
Start with James Paul Gee.
Then move onto Katie Salen.
Then move on to Constance Steinkuehler.
i really like the music from 0:15 - 0:22. and i like how she looks. would love to talk with her about my games.
even thought she may go a bit over the top i think she was pointing out the obvious in the first clip. at least in some cases. dont know where all the funding went. but i enjoy her videos so what have i to nag about. come at me anita, im waiting for you harsh voice! tell me how to treat woman correctly and ill do anything you want from me!!!
even thought she may go a bit over the top i think she was pointing out the obvious in the first clip. at least in some cases. dont know where all the funding went. but i enjoy her videos so what have i to nag about. come at me anita, im waiting for you harsh voice! tell me how to treat woman correctly and ill do anything you want from me!!!
Haha
Optimus Lime
(L3) + (R3) | Spartan rage activated
You're not an academic, are you?
Eh, I wouldn't call it harm. Poking the hornet's nest, sure. But there's nothing wrong with bringing a lot of this stuff tonight and saying, "Hey, a lot of this shit is pretty poorly done!" Because a lot of it is.
And they never will be with that attitude.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I don't even think that citing wikipedia flies in High School
I definitely agree, she could at least get some secondary opinion from people in the field with her funding, but all she's done is bought a few more games and kept quiet with where the money went while making the same videos she's always made.
It sucks and the criticism has a fine basis, but she's perfectly within legality, much akin to the Penny Arcade podcast debacle.
You don't think so, but others do. That's how much effort I'm putting in my rebuttal based on your assertion.
...well that's just...like...your opinion man.
Seriously, I don't understand why you think any of that has to happen. I can understand why you might think those funds are misappropriated due to the quality of the videos and how light the series has been thus far in diving in for solutions to problems that she's bringing up...but why you think you should have any say in how she handles her books is beyond me.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I am? Really? I was kind of using "common sense". Aragorn is an adult. Adults have greater mental faculties than preteens. Statistical fact.
Your argument is that it's believable that she abandoned every single element that defined Tetra immediately, correct? That seems to be your argument. A child is not capable of making such a personality change so quickly, and so effectively, for such a logical reason. In fact, Tetra's character is so far from being able to do that, it's absurd.
And yes, you win in addressing a fact that I already stated. After The Wind Waker, Tetra returned. In PH. And then she got kidnapped and wasn't in the story. So Tetra came back, but they made sure to keep the whole DiD element that Zelda brought to the fold in TWW.
EDIT: I don't mean to canvas people, but I'm getting pretty "ugh" in this debate. Can I get some people to help point out to this user that Aragorn's ability to adapt his personality is greater than that of a kid's?
oneils
Member
But feminism is not the subject of Sarkeesian's work. I must be missing something. Her feminism is informing her critique. Her point of view is informing her critique. That is the whole point of criticism (well, of many schools of critical theory anyway).
DragonSworne
Banned
She is doing such a bad job at these videos I wonder if she is purposefully playing the part of the feminist trope.
Delusibeta
Banned
To be released in August.
If there's one criticism that no-one can argue against, it's that she's damn slow. I mean, in the time between part 1 and part 2, there's been three Errant Signals (total time: about 50 minutes) and 11 Extra Credits (total time: about an hour) to make an episode that I'll assume is half an hour long. Sure, neither of them are focused on a particular topic, but that's still a lot more stuff done in the time. (I realise that the comparison to Extra Credits might not be terribly fair, since we're comparing a team of four with a team of one + that full time researcher I distinctly remember promising to hire. But then again, two of the Extra Credits folk handle the art, and one of them I believe doesn't do much else other than reading the script, modifying the voice to a higher pitch [coz Yahtzee, innit] and compile the video. But still.)
To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure where the time was spent, never mind the money.
Yeah, she's probably a LYING WHORE just like MOTHER
Wouldn't be surprised if there was a 4th video, given the order of events.
cicero
Member
I'm sorry, I am trying to find where exactly you specifically mentioned this new allowance for certain types of violence but not over the top violence in the specific post of yours that I quoted and responded to.
Oh wait, that was your original post, as can be seen by my direct quote of it HERE. This following quote is the same post with your new additions.
So now you respond as if my response to your post ignored the "ever-more-extreme " aspect to violence, instead of just "violence" itself, as your unedited post specifically listed. Way to move the goalposts. This convenient editing of yours and the complete lack of effort on your part to acknowledge it or leave it alone and suffer some slings and arrows of outrageous, but well-deserved, fortune until you can rectify it in a following post SEEMS just a tad bit disingenuous on your part.
My issue was clearly your APPARENT position against violence in its entirety that I took from your own original comments. Now you want a more subtle and refined position that allows for violence, but not extreme over the top violence. I would not have objected to your comment or responded to it had it actually been this new position originally.
Searching for videos on Youtube can be pretty messy at times.
1. Men and women both have problems/fear of rejection.
2. A man/woman's object of affection being childlike/weak/babyish is not always considered attractive, this depends on the person.
3. Women can be weak and childlike, they can also be strong and willful, that's a personality trait, not a gender trait.
4. These fantasies exist but not everyone holds them. There's a variety of content out there that doesn't play on those fantasies, and a variety of people that can't relate to those fantasies.
5. Male power fantasies may be a response to a male fear of rejection or the desire to gain power and overcome the fears in their lives, as there is no fear of rejection. And since male power fantasies are pervasive in many cultures, representations of them exist. But there are many people out there who don't relate to these fantasies, men and women.
What I'm trying to say is that the reality in your head, where everyone thinks baby-like women are attractive/cute, and women are always loved and wanted and never fear rejection, is a false reality.
A Link to the Past
Banned
It's still sexist. Just because it's a thing in real life, doesn't mean that it's not sexist for it to be so common in video games.
Tetra is "mentally incapable" of not being a complete brat, confirmed by statistics. Give me a break.
All you've confirmed is that you're unbelievably stubborn, and simply refuse to concede a single point, even when you're blatantly wrong.
Follow your argument through to its conclusion. So what you're trying to say is that Nintendo was wrong by making Tetra act like more of an adult. On what planet is that sexist? How is that even a negative thing?
Right. Tetra didn't cease to exist. Actually Zelda did. Literally the exact opposite of what you were trying to pass off here.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
She is having a pretty blatant double discurse (Tropes are not bad and you shouldn't feel bad... bud the next cherry picked examples and images will shock your children and will make you feel bad) that seem to want to make you to take a side and not having an actual disscusion.
As someone who works in editing, that's just insulting. Shape up.
Because it isn't 'her books'. It's money donated towards the analysis of a topic. If she cares about truly analyzing this topic, she would spend the money bettering her analysis, or give it back. It isn't conceptually difficult to grasp, so I have no idea why it's beyond you.
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