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Tropes Vs. Women Episode 2 - Damsels In Distress Part [spoiler warning]
- Thread starter Mesoian
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Spoilers are so hot.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
The wrtting is focused of showing them as a couple and how important is Jenny to Jackie. Is can't be compared to AW which has way more dialogues and focus on plot and characters.
Dosn't mean the game presented her as a possesion of Jackies. Is just a draw and limited script.
flatearthpandas
Member
Well, it does have to be watchable.
If I was going to fund someone to go on a crusade against [videogame] storytelling, I would have funded a book and not some Youtube videos. A book with notable resources, probably sociology and psychology studies, with a dose of literature analysis to really get a handle of the historical context and proliferation of these tropes.
Being kind of contrary, but I want what you want. I didn't expect what you seem to have expected though.
spandexmonkey
Banned
She never claimed to be doing a scientific analysis, these videos being just her opinion doesn't detract from what she's trying to do, draw attention to these issues. I thought her first video was a good introduction and had hoped the second would finally go into some depth, I'm dissappointed in her arguments, but ultimately I'm still glad she's making these.
Portugeezer
Gold Member
I was looking forward to a good laugh, but the video is down, dammit!
publicpwnerer
Member
As opposed to what...every single action movie having the obligatory female eye candy?
Riposte
Member
The characters outside the Darkness and Jackie is the "world". In these games every character is defined by their relationship to either. You are asking for the game to include elements that don't involve either, when it isn't trying to do that.
Indeed. The obsession with increasingly detailed violence in gaming is the biggest problem of them all (this recent x-ray damage fetish of games like Sniper Elite--ugh, worst thing I've seen in gaming to date), and merely asking for our violent simulations to start forcing into their framing narratives a few more empowered female characters will accomplish absolutely nothing. It only further obfuscates the problem.
At least violence was partly the focus this time, so it's a minor improvement, though she still stubbornly attempts derive all violence from a simplified gender drama, when in fact it seems the violence obsession in the medium is the catalyst for these kinds of simplified and gendered revenge narratives, not the other way around.
That's kind of a weak counterargument dude.
Tetra had her own defined personality - kickass, sassy pirate
When she turns into Zelda (which happens at around 60% of the game) they complete drop her old persona, and she's becomes this boring princess who sits around in a dank ass temple waiting for link to beat Ganondorf (If Tetra retained her personality, I guarantee she'd go on the quest with him)
Gutsy Frog
Banned
Honestly, I *do* think it was lame that Tetra was locked up for the second half of the game, because I liked her and wanted her to have more screen time. The final boss battle, though? I see nothing objectionable in the least, I thought it was great. WW's Zelda was a character I'd rather fight side-by-side with instead of saving, and the climax provided just that.
People are siding with her to such an extent because they want to distance themselves from those who spammed her with misogyny. I'm 100% sure people would have been far more critical of a lot of her points otherwise - she's said a LOT of outright silly, illogical things, like "torrent sites have porn ads to systematically keep out women".
Of course, there are still plenty of people who think the 4chan spam was awful (including a huge chunk of 4chan itself) while still criticizing her videos.
oneils
Member
I feel bad saying this, but, please, before criticising the video - maybe do a little research on feminist criticism. The ultimate goal is to increase awareness about sexual politics in either literature or popular culture. It is not necessarily to paint everyone and every medium and every message as sexist.
Sarkeesian should probably spend a little more time fleshing that out and explaining the purpose of the videos. Right now it seems that a lot of gamers think the point is to go on a witch hunt. But that really isn't the point. Right now she seems to be simply trying to establish that a problem does exist.
I'm getting the impression that there are four reactions to that:
1. Nope! No problems here!
2. There might be a problem, but she is doing a piss poor job at demonstrating or explaining them (some of these are genuine, and I think some are disingenuous).
3. You are only allowed to critique video games as self-contained and self-referential works.
4. Yes, we do need to make more people aware about the problems with power relations in video games.
I think if she focussed a little more attention on addressing those reactions she might mollify a lot of people. But she really shouldn't have to. I think it should go without saying. We need to kind of take a deep breath and understand the tradition within which her videos are being developed.
Sarkeesian should probably spend a little more time fleshing that out and explaining the purpose of the videos. Right now it seems that a lot of gamers think the point is to go on a witch hunt. But that really isn't the point. Right now she seems to be simply trying to establish that a problem does exist.
I'm getting the impression that there are four reactions to that:
1. Nope! No problems here!
2. There might be a problem, but she is doing a piss poor job at demonstrating or explaining them (some of these are genuine, and I think some are disingenuous).
3. You are only allowed to critique video games as self-contained and self-referential works.
4. Yes, we do need to make more people aware about the problems with power relations in video games.
I think if she focussed a little more attention on addressing those reactions she might mollify a lot of people. But she really shouldn't have to. I think it should go without saying. We need to kind of take a deep breath and understand the tradition within which her videos are being developed.
Actually, she's making them for use in classrooms too. Watch the first 3 minutes again. It should be extremely obvious. She has stated this before.
She's in a fucking throne room, where she can rule the world after the castle rises. So disempowered.
cicero
Member
This is just delusional. What should games be then? Competitive group therapy sessions where dungeon masters/therapists lead parties of excited players through the tangles of their own minds and personal motivations? FPS games that don't involve killing but are games of virtual Tag on digital playgrounds?
A Link to the Past
Banned
I seriously want you to stop and ask yourself where the quality of your argument is. You are arguing right now that Aragorn has the intelligence and mental faculties of a preteen.
The comparison is garbage because, as a matter of fact, Aragorn is far more capable of modifying his personality in order to be a king. In fact, it is evident that he does this specifically to make himself more regal for his position.
Tetra immediately becomes the Princess archtype. She takes a complete 180 from the character design that actually made Tetra interesting. And she isn't doing it for the sake of her people, because she HAS no people. She is being regal in an empty kingdom, for two people, both of whom know her as Tetra perfectly well.
Funny that you mentioned Power Suit, Samus'. Samus' combat ability is established to be so good that without her suit she is more powerful than any human being in our world. She could very well overpower anyone who challenged her. Lara Croft is established as a perfectly capable character, who takes on many males throughout her entire franchise. Seriously, stop trying to justify someone saying that females who are strong are not believable.
As for your skirt update, your point is valid for a poor producer of content. Which I don't think Ueda is.
My argument is that someone said that TWW avoids these tropes. I'm demonstrating that it doesn't. Would you agree?
DragonSworne
Banned
Not unless we know what the distant between the height of the fall and planet, and the mass of the planet and the robot.
Plus, we have no clue what kind of impact the robot can survive. I will side with the more positive charactisitc and assume the woman was smart and knew what she was doing. Especially considering there was signs of additional force being exerted from her hand that was very impressive.
However, I do find it strange that you assuming that the woman was being dumb, that seems very abnormal for someone who support's Anita's videos.
Nice try.
I wrote my response down in 4chan. I'll just copy/paste.
>trigger warning
Lets not baby. People know what they are getting into.
>male power fantasy
Get this. The male power fantasy is when a male is needed or wanted and had no fear of rejection and must risk his life and sometimes sacrifice his life to gain acceptance and identity. But yes, lets demonize the men for making this stereotype, it's not like men have a large issue with acceptance or anything.
>women are appealing for their powerlessness
I like to link this back to women calling babies cute. Does that mean they put themselves over the baby or like them because they're powerless or is it just that it instills the idea they're wanted.
Actually, we'd have a good discussion figuring out the significance of "cute".
>women in refridgerators
You kill the person you cared for. The person is most likely to be female since it's a mainly male market. It's an identifiable issue for men.
>helpless deaths
There is a lot of men being killed in helpless situations. A whole lot, actually. The big difference is that when the women get killed they're usually cared about.
>GTA "misogynist joke"
It has nothing to do with the fact she's a woman. She's just talking about trivial things and he doesn't like it. There is plenty women in GTA that are treated well by one another.
>women asking for pain
This totally doesn't happen to men a lot. Ever. Totally. Yep.
Hurt me more, Snake.
>domestic violence
Does this make exorcisms domestic abuse now?
>violence is the only game mechanic
So you want more text choices? Okay, that's fine.
>she belongs to him
Relationships show mutual ownership. It is silly to play the victim here. Very silly.
>men as the protector
Correct, but it's not protect women and children alone. It's just be the protector. People forget that the Legend of Zelda is basically selling the male traditional role to men.
>violence against women
Violence in general is an issue.
>trigger warning
Lets not baby. People know what they are getting into.
>male power fantasy
Get this. The male power fantasy is when a male is needed or wanted and had no fear of rejection and must risk his life and sometimes sacrifice his life to gain acceptance and identity. But yes, lets demonize the men for making this stereotype, it's not like men have a large issue with acceptance or anything.
>women are appealing for their powerlessness
I like to link this back to women calling babies cute. Does that mean they put themselves over the baby or like them because they're powerless or is it just that it instills the idea they're wanted.
Actually, we'd have a good discussion figuring out the significance of "cute".
>women in refridgerators
You kill the person you cared for. The person is most likely to be female since it's a mainly male market. It's an identifiable issue for men.
>helpless deaths
There is a lot of men being killed in helpless situations. A whole lot, actually. The big difference is that when the women get killed they're usually cared about.
>GTA "misogynist joke"
It has nothing to do with the fact she's a woman. She's just talking about trivial things and he doesn't like it. There is plenty women in GTA that are treated well by one another.
>women asking for pain
This totally doesn't happen to men a lot. Ever. Totally. Yep.
Hurt me more, Snake.
>domestic violence
Does this make exorcisms domestic abuse now?
>violence is the only game mechanic
So you want more text choices? Okay, that's fine.
>she belongs to him
Relationships show mutual ownership. It is silly to play the victim here. Very silly.
>men as the protector
Correct, but it's not protect women and children alone. It's just be the protector. People forget that the Legend of Zelda is basically selling the male traditional role to men.
>violence against women
Violence in general is an issue.
Lambda Pie
Banned
this video sold me on most games she talked about.
Optimus Lime
(L3) + (R3) | Spartan rage activated
Oh, I agree.
But, they should have used their heads. Anita has always been a lightweight. I've not seen a single piece of serious, scholarly research from her. This is her biggest weakness - throughout all of the controversy, the histrionics and hysteria from the stupider members of the gaming community, and her ill-conceived Kickstarter, she's never quite managed to figure out that academic credibility requires a little more work. She's not a social scientist, a social researcher, or a gender theorist. She's a new media brat who is comfortable taking short cuts.
I'm not saying that this kind of work isn't important. Of course, gender in gaming is a fascinating area requiring serious scholarly inquiry. Anita, however, is not up for the job - and her videos are staggeringly vacuous. That people take them seriously, as though Henry Jenkins is lecturing them, is very, very funny.
SousedLouse
Member
Don't you worry your little head about that! Cymbal Head's super-ultra-mega-useful, not-in-anyway-obnoxious ur-response already covered that angle:
Yeah! Take that, random person who may or may not have participated in the clusterfuck of a thread that happened the last time Sarkeesian put up a video! You just got told off from the past!
It's not her fault honestly, we can't expect her to put on a production worth $158,922 when the original intent was a production worth $6000. Without any sort of stretch goal promises, I stand by my assertion that people who gave money past the $6000 were misguided fools with a good intention.
YouTube pulled the plug for reasons currently unknown.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
She wants to used them in classroms. She even adress little kids at the beginning of her video issuing a content warning... after a introductory montage of torture scenes...
...
You do realize that the castle she's staying in is completely empty right. Oh well I guess there are random enemies hanging around, but they don't count!
Tetra goes back to being regular old Tetra at the end of WW, so she rules for approximately 0% of the game.
Optimus Lime
(L3) + (R3) | Spartan rage activated
Oh - I in no way endorse the way she was treated at the hands of 4chan, or Reddit. That was horrible, despicable, and she didn't do anything to deserve a single second of it. It was, however, her greatest contribution to academic critique - her actual content may be nonsense, but she created a living, reactive illustration of the torrent of misogyny that runs beneath the surface of the gaming community. Which wasn't her mission, but which was a fascinating and depressing display nonetheless.
Garbledina
Neo Member
"This video has been taken down due to violations of the terms of service"
pffthaha
pffthaha
A Link to the Past
Banned
To casablog.
1. Male power fantasy - let's not get too deep into this. Most male characters that are power fantasies, are so because the designers want to give players a powerful character to become.
2. Powerlessness - You compared men's appeal to powerless women to women's appeal to babies...
1. Male power fantasy - let's not get too deep into this. Most male characters that are power fantasies, are so because the designers want to give players a powerful character to become.
2. Powerlessness - You compared men's appeal to powerless women to women's appeal to babies...
Relaxed Muscle
Member
She's talking about "violence against women", of course that can be considered wrong regarding the plot requirements. I can agree with that in that particular point. Is not true in any other case.
I hope so, from the use of ">".
If you're implying the content of the post then I'd call you a fool.
Man that sucks.
UltimaPooh
Member
Working link to video?
oneils
Member
I wonder if she got a copyright notice. Which is kind of bogus, because I think fair use principle would apply. Maybe she got trolled?
Riposte
Member
The connection to that and just about all the games she mentioned is pretty flimsy. The victimization (in this case "kill me so you have to save me") in games is usually there to torture the main character (who is most often male) and to give him a motive, not to demonize women as acceptable targets of violence. There is no significant connection between people playing videogames and people committing violence against women. Her talking violence against women in the real world is weird because it makes it look like she is subtly trying to link the two in your mind.
Optimus Lime
(L3) + (R3) | Spartan rage activated
So, your defence of her content is 'LOL ITS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY'?
Sounds like you don't believe in what she's doing, either. Why shouldn't the kind of analysis she's attempting fulfil the basic academic charter, while simultaneously being accessible to a generalist audience?
James Paul Gee manages to do it. Could you explain to me why Anita should be exempt?
SeanNoonan
Member
Was this an organised attack?
Zoe
Member
It likely does apply, but a bot wouldn't be able to determine that.
lol... what if it had to do with all the recent copyright stuff going on with the LetsPlayers and people showing games on YouTube. That'd be hilariously unfortunate.
Highly doubt that is the case though.
I have no idea what you're even talking about here.
Why? They're both fully capable of trying to act regal when they're dressed up in royal gear, wearing crowns, and in their throne rooms.
I don't even know what this means.
She's the princess of all of Hyrule. Every person in Wind Waker is one of her subjects. The kingdom is fragmented though and needs to be reunited, almost exactly like Lord of the Rings. She returns to her lost throne almost exactly like Aragorn. She then starts to act more regal almost exactly like Aragorn.
She is then instrumental in finishing the final boss. Even Aragorn doesn't do that, Frodo does.
Nothing about it sexist in any way. You have no point at all. Zero.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
As usually, you are on point.
Fair use would apply, but it's a hellish fight.
Zoe
Member
I'd be really surprised if that's what happened considering the last video never got pulled.
Lambda Pie
Banned
It's not her fault honestly, we can't expect her to put on a production worth $158,922 when the original intent was a production worth $6000. Without any sort of stretch goal promises, I stand by my assertion that people who gave money past the $6000 were misguided fools with a good intention.
holy shit, $160.000?
maybe her next video can touch on how white knight nerds will gladly give their money to random white women on the internet because they put them on a pedestal.
$160.000... i'm stunned and i've seen a 155lb man submit a 420lb giant in a televised fight.
Riposte
Member
YouTube is actually dumb enough to take down videos for no reason other than that people reported it.
I agree with hachi that this gender stuff gets in the way of the actual topic trying to be said here: "violence" and mechanics. I couldn't disagree more with hachi on the topic though. Anti-violence puritanism is a blight videogames is going to have to face.
I agree with hachi that this gender stuff gets in the way of the actual topic trying to be said here: "violence" and mechanics. I couldn't disagree more with hachi on the topic though. Anti-violence puritanism is a blight videogames is going to have to face.
Don't want to do the math but based on the parallax I assume the robot had reached terminal velocity already cause by the end it was falling at constant speed. There's no need to calculate the gravity or distance or anything, just how many robot-bodies per second the robot was moving at.
On the other hand we can see that the punches of the billy and jimmy don't break the robot in half yet the punch of this girl does which gives us one of two options
-The girl is stronger than the guys who rescued her and she only thought of punching the robot once the heroes had thrown her out of a black hole or something, which is sexist because it portrays the girl as incapable of her own rescue even when she had the means for it.
-The girl is weaker than the heroes and the robot breaks because he impacted a solid body at terminal velocity; in this case the girl punch didn't add nothing and it is sexist cause the girl's actions are of no consequence. The robot would have died anyway.
Nice try.
akidnamededdy
Banned
There are all kinds of limitations to fair use, though. Purpose and character, amount and substantiality, effect upon the copyrighted work's value, etc....
Yeah, calling bullshit on this.
DMCA my man. No one in 2008 thought it would matter.
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