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[Prisoner KSC2-303]

I'd hazard a guess that the doubters are more mindful of the fact that Jeff was adamant the PS4k was just a firmware update.

 

[JaseC]

Woosh...most of the posts in this page I consider a waste as no information is being shared. It's really over and over it's not real until it's real, a Car is not a Car until you fill the tank and take it for a drive. It's just a steel box that looks like a Car.

"Whoosh"? You're not in a place to condescend to me, quite frankly. I answered a question, you misinterpreted the answer, I supplied clarification; and now, rather than express a modicum of humility, you claim that you were just being as "wasteful" as I was with the post you quoted. It seems you've taken offence, so let me be as clear as possible as perhaps there's a bit of a language barrier here: I wasn't saying that you would have, if given a tag, started speculating about everything and anything in order to live up to said tag. I was saying that if there were a point that a tag was being considered for you, you didn't receive one because there's a history of others interpreting the receiving of a tag as a green light to further define themselves by that behaviour. That's it. I was casting no aspersions on your character.

 

[jeff_rigby]

"Whoosh"? You're not in a place to condescend to me, quite frankly. I answered a question, you misinterpreted the answer, I supplied clarification; and now, rather than express a modicum of humility, you claim that you were just being as "wasteful" as I was with the post you quoted. It seems you've taken offence, so let me be as clear as possible as perhaps there's a bit of a language barrier here: I wasn't saying that you would have, if given a tag, started speculating about everything and anything in order to live up to said tag. I was saying that if there were a point that a tag was being considered for you, you didn't receive one because there's a history of others interpreting the receiving of a tag as a green light to further define themselves by that behaviour. That's it. I was casting no aspersions on your character.

JaseC, my comment was tongue in cheek and was not meant to be taken seriously. Woosh was you missing it was humor. Sorry I gave you the wrong impression by mixing what followed into the Woosh. I was responding to the tone of the other posts.

 

[JaseC]

JaseC, my comment was tongue in cheek and was not meant to be taken seriously. Woosh was you missing it was humor. Sorry I gave you the wrong impression by mixing what followed into the Woosh. I was responding to the tone of the other posts.

Ah, right. Apologies for the misunderstanding, and apology accepted.

 

[jeff_rigby]

You're doing it again. You're grasping to fit things together. You haven't factored in the time frame of when that document was written. By the time it was written, the PS3 was a pretty established piece of hardware and we were getting HD resolutions out of it with most games being at around 720p. Everyone accepts it as a console that outputs HD resolution that ranges from 720p to 1080p. Nobody is going to sit there and look at a PS3 in real world conditions and label it as a 4K device. Not to mention none of the official documentation or the development documentation even eludes to 4K support on the PS3. Seriously use that document reading ability and go look up and study Occam's razor. You have the problem of trying to over complicate everything even in your replies to simple questions or statements. You did it before when discussing OTA signals. You did it again now in this very post.

Just as an exercise I'll do what I suggested you do:

The hardware differences between the PS3 and PS4 as it relates to supported features. Bold is what makes the PS4 UHD Capable:

USB2 vs USB3
480P Camera vs 720P Stereo (PS3 USB2 limits the camera)
HDMI 1.4 ( HDCP in the HDMI Chip) vs HDMI 2 (HDCP in the TEE)
Hypervisor vs Trustzone TEE Both have embedded data as DRM KEYs with ARM trustzone having multiple keys allowing the use of a different keys if one is discovered.
Traditional boot VS Root of Trust boot using the TEE
Playready Porting kit 2.5 vs Playready Porting kit 3
PS3 with very limited power mode control
PS4 Totally separate OS and Trustzone TEE using ARM for all MEDIA with power modes allowing the APU to be turned off and GDDR5 in self refresh for full screen video.


The PS3 can support 4K @ 24 FPS as long as it's not media that requires DRM. The PS3 is getting Playready porting kit 2.5 and probably watermarking so that it can support 1080P. It will get the same Webkit HTML5 <video> browser and likely APPs. It will not support 4K DRM media at any FPS. It will get Playready ND, Playready porting kit 2.5 and WMDRM as an included subset. The PS4 will get Playready porting kit 3, Playready ND and WMDRM for media below 1080P because Playready porting kit 3 does not include WMDRM.

EDIT: Will get as I don't think either console is using embedded Playready and/or the OS browser stack. If it were the size of the apps would be MUCH much smaller and full screen video could allow the APU to be turned off allowing a Media play mode of about 20 watts.

Newer PS3s can support 24 fps UHD blu-ray with a firmware update except for the DRM requirements. Those DRM hardware requirements are what make the PS4 a UHD capable console. Those same DRM hardware requirements are needed for 4K Antenna TV , UHD Blu-ray and UHD IPTV.

All 4K media uses Open source standards provided by HTML5 with W3C web TV extensions which can be used by HD media. 3D for HD blu-ray is h.264 frame packed (side by side) while UHD 3D will be HEVC multi-view plus depth map.

2D + depth map makes it easier to support VR and gesture control which both the PS4 and XB1 will support.

 

[Black Hat]

The laser in UHD Blu-ray players is tuned for the newer higher-density disc structure.

This isn't going to come down in firmware. Pipe dream Jeffy.

 

[dr_rus]

What happened to the previous thread with a great title?

 

[jeff_rigby]

The laser in UHD Blu-ray players is tuned for the newer higher-density disc structure.

This isn't going to come down in firmware. Pipe dream Jeffy.

The higher density is because the mark length is shorter. This makes the drive vulnerable to jitter errors unless that routine is updated. There is no difference to the laser. The laser frequency is tied to the pit depth and can't change. Reading multiple layers is a function of the return strength and focus of the laser and depends more on the disk than the drive. All blu-ray drives can read 3 or more layers.

In January 2007, Hitachi showcased a 100 GB Blu-ray Disc, consisting of four layers containing 25 GB each.[77] Unlike TDK and Panasonic's 100 GB discs, they claim this disc is readable on standard Blu-ray Disc drives that are currently in circulation, and it is believed that a firmware update is the only requirement to make it readable to current players and drives.[78]

In December 2008, Pioneer Corporation unveiled a 400 GB Blu-ray Disc (containing 16 data layers, 25 GB each) that will be compatible with current players after a firmware update. Its planned launch is in the 2009&#8211;

On January 1, 2010, Sony, in association with Panasonic, announced plans to increase the storage capacity on their Blu-ray Discs from 25 GB to 33.4 GB via a technology called i-MLSE (Maximum likelihood Sequence Estimation). The higher-capacity discs, according to Sony, will be readable on current Blu-ray Disc players with a firmware upgrade. No date has been set to include the increased space, although in 2010 Blu-ray.com reported that "it will likely happen sometime later this year."[80]

The BDA whitepaper page 32 lists the difference between V1.4 and V2 disk formats and it's the mark length which then requires a change in how reliability is determined. This is the 2010 Panasonic-Sony tweak that Sony said was firmware update-able.

The V2 format was in the 2010 Sony patent mentioned by NAME as V2 that mentioned the Panasonic-Sony tweek that allowed the extra compression which Sony said just required a Firmware update and the same patent mentioned that drives in 2010 could read the three layers.

Sony and Panasonic have announced plans to increase the capacity of Blu-Ray discs (such as those used by PS3 games) from 25GB to 33.4GB. Hideo Kojima will be so pleased!

According to a report from Nikkei, the increase comes courtesy of some new ways to evaluate content on the disc. Or, in more technical terms, is thanks to new partial response maximum likelihood (PRML) signal processing, which "assumes inter-symbol interference, which makes it difficult to base optical disc quality evaluation on jitter, as is widely done now for Blu-ray and many other optical discs".

Now, there's good news, and there's good news. Good news first: this advance will be compatible with all existing Blu-Ray players, as all that's required is a firmware update. So the technology will find its way to PS3 games soon enough.

And the good news? The increase applies to all layers of the disc. So as soon as dual-layered Blu-Ray discs start becoming common, you'll be able to fit 66.8GB of data on a disc.

Please read the cites. This is by design not accident that standard blu-ray drives can be firmware updated to support Version 2 disks. There are many other technologies that can support MUCH larger volumes and they were not used. The BDA wanted to make it as easy as possible to support UHD Blu-ray.

 

[jeff_rigby]

What happened to the previous thread with a great title?

Too large. I hoped that the OFFICAL documents stating that the PS4 and XB1 are UHD capable would at least allow an acceptance of the HDMI 2 port and HEVC but it appears there are still conceptional issues.

 

[jeff_rigby]

ATSC 3.0 Is Going To Revolutionize Free, Over-The-Air TV


It's Free with optional DRM for Pay TV Premium Channels
The Antenna can be tiny (Multiple towers Like Cell Phones)
It can broadcast to smartphones, tablets (Uses the same Modulation and frequency bands)
It supports Mobile for even cars without flutter
Same TV network Towers in different cities can be Frequency Synced (No skip issues and you can watch a program uninterrupted on the same network across multiple cities while sitting in a Car.
It works with the Internet (XTV) and something like Playstation Vue can be included for those channels that are not on Antenna TV. A E-Guide that includes both is why the FCC DSTAC proposal for the Cable card replacement is so important. With Cable TV's proposal you can't have a common E-Guide with both Cable TV's and Antenna TV's programming. With Vue you could.
It can support 4X as many channels as we now have

The FCC may mandate support for ATSC 3 in Cell phones to support the Emergency alert. With this and all the above, Cable TV programming will move to what will be the larger market..... Free Antenna TV with many more cable cutters.

Because the FCC wants to sell more TV spectrum to Cell Phone companies, the FCC will have to accelerate the adoption of ATSC 3. Any UHD Blu-ray player that supports the Digital bridge that Sony proposals wanted to MANDATE, can support being a STB for ATSC 3 able to downscale for 1080P TVs. It would need a network to IPTV tuner as would every other 4K TV on the market till they are included internally. Fortunately there is a standard for that called Vidipath using Playready ND that is also in Sony proposals for the Digital bridge.

Microsoft mentions Game consoles using Playready ND (Vidipath DTCP-IP DRM for in home Streaming of 1080P and 4K) for Game consoles of DVR and Live content and both the XB1 and PS4 (from 2013) are listed in Official papers as UHD Capable and will be UHD blu-ray players after (Jan 2016 mentioned in a April 2015 paper) firmware update which might have been just UHD IPTV. UHD Capable is all that is mentioned but it includes all UHD media delivery schemes because they all use the same Open source delivery software stack. Only the DRM on Disk for Blu-ray differs (AACS 2 & BD+ which are slighty changed from what is in HD Blu-ray except for the requirement that they run in the same TEE the UHD media DRM requires. Modern HD Blu-ray drives can be firmware updated to support Version 2 disks (33 GB/layer) and all blu-ray players can read 3 layers.

The FCC is considering using STBs to accelerate the adoption of ATSC 3; you think someone has a plan? PS4, XB1 as UHD Blu-ray with digital bridge can be those STBs when connected to a Vidipath network Antenna TV Tuner.

Vidipath from Cable TV DVRs with tuners and after Cable Moves to all IPTV from a Cable Modem without DVR or Tuner using a Downloadable Security scheme & Sony Passage (1.8 years)
Vidipath from Antenna TV tuners (May optionally include Hard disk for DVR) = Sony Nasne
Vidipath from UHD Blu-ray Digital bridge (Has mandated Hard Disk can support DVR) = PS4 & XB1 This is why I have mentioned Vidipath in just about every Thread for the last two years.

HEVC being used for Antenna TV can support 4X as many channels at the same resolutions the TV stations are now using. In my area that is 34 X4 = 136 or I can imagine fewer more high resolution with Some having 4K programming for special events and dynamically reducing the resolution of the other sub channels.

LG Demos ATSC 3.0 Wireless Network Antenna

The ATSC 3.0 wireless network antenna is based on an LG-developed unidirectional antenna array with electronic steering logic designed to optimize indoor reception. LG is integrating a chip-based ATSC 3.0 tuner-demodulator with the antenna, which can be placed anywhere in a home&#8212;the attic, in a window, in a closet&#8212;wherever reception is best.

The steerable network antenna is coupled with a network interface to communicate with the in-home WiFi router to allow connected devices to blend ATSC 3.0 signals and services with over-the-top Internet-delivered content. The Wireless Network Antenna also is designed to receive current ATSC 1.0 DTV transmissions and similarly route them to an array of consumer devices.

Combo ATSC 1 & 3 TV tuner to IPTV which should be selling by LG and others the end of 2016 or by Q1 2017. They will be Vidipath Antenna/Network tuners.

 

[biggersmaller]

I can barely comprehend what you have posted, Jeff - but let's assume for arguments sake a PS4/Xbone could technically play a UHD disk via firmware update. Even with that concession, I don't believe either Sony or Microsoft would provide it when new hardware iterations are on the horizon. It doesn't make business sense.

I would love to be wrong about this. I will eat crow then rush home to my new/old UHG player. However, between your near La Forge-esque technobabble and the business side of the existing UHD market - you have to understand why so many people regard this as a pipe dream.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I can barely comprehend what you have posted, Jeff - but let's assume for arguments sake a PS4/Xbone could technically play a UHD disk via firmware update. Even with that concession, I don't believe either Sony or Microsoft would provide it when new hardware iterations are on the horizon. It doesn't make business sense.

I would love to be wrong about this. I will eat crow then rush home to my new/old UHG player. However, between your near La Forge-esque technobabble and the business side of the existing UHD market - you have to understand why so many people regard this as a pipe dream.

I'll try to make this simple, it's important that you understand the following:

UHD Capable tells us alot if you understand what that implies. For the first time due to the CE industry supporting CEA2014 and HTML5, everything uses the same standards based on open source HTML5 <video> MSE EME. For the hardware we have standards for DRM based on a hardware TEE which everyone is following.

ALL UHD media delivery schemes use the same standards INTERNATIONALLY for the first time. ATSC 3 (UHD Antenna TV) will also be supported internationally. If you can support one UHD media you can support them all. Vidipath for media sharing in the home also follows the same standards with a common DRM called Playready and from the Microsoft master list of Playready adopters, it's also a international DRM standard.

A Console model has the same features for the life of the console so for the PS4 and XB1 the Launch models have the same MAJOR features that the second, third and final versions of a model have; this applies to UHD Blu-ray support, ATSC 3, Vidipath, VR, Games, APPs etc. There are 40 million PS4 models on the market and it's necessary for the success of UHD Blu-ray that those PS4s and XB1s support UHD Blu-ray. Sony has a license for Embedded players which mentions Game Consoles (XB1 and PS4) and a separate license for PCs. Cost to support the XB1 and PS4; $.025 per console. The cost only includes the licence fee and programmers labor as the drive is firmware update-able and it uses the same software stack the browser uses and the same TEE the other media uses. This means that writing a UHD Blu-ray player for a platform that has a Browser is easier than it has ever been and likely that every UHD Blu-ray player will include a browser.

Ignorance has caused articles to insist the Launch PS4 can't support UHD Blu-ray for several reasons; HDMI 2, HEVC and Drive. The Official papers I cited state that the PS4 is UHD Capable which means it supports HDMI 2 and HEVC as well as a complete HTML5 Browser with W3C Web TV extensions. The drive is another matter not supported officially but it is firmware update-able if you read the BDA papers and the Mount Fuji book and 2010 patents from Sony-Panasonic on the 33GB/layer firmware tweek. Again the Console model would be broken in the Launch model didn't support UHD Blu-ray and later models did.

Can and Will support are different terms. Multiple papers from Sony and Microsoft indicate that they are going for full support for Vidipath and UHD media in all it's forms. Since every UHD Capable STB or TV has a browser and can support ATSC 3, Vidipath and being a client for a UHD Blu-ray digital bridge if they have Playready DRM, the XB1 and PS4 can support being DVR and UHD Blu-ray digital bridge servers via Vidipath to all those other STBs and TVs.

 

[Quasar]

ALL UHD media delivery schemes use the same standards INTERNATIONALLY for the first time. ATSC 3 (UHD Antenna TV) will also be supported internationally.

Being in a PAL/DVB region I wondered about what was happening after listening to some podcasts about NAB and the ATSC3 spec. Wondered what would be happening with the DVB nations and whether there was a new version of DVB coming down the pike that was being ignored because the online tech press is mostly US focused.

 

[Adam Tyner]

Again the Console model would be broken in the Launch model didn't support UHD Blu-ray and later models did.

That's not true in the slightest, though. If games come on the same media as ever and can be played by every iteration of every PS4 console, nothing is in any way broken. Regardless of which PS4s do or don't get UHD BD support, we've already been told that developers are limited to plain old BD-50 discs (or at least that's the consensus in the leaks).

The launch 360s didn't have HDMI out; later versions did. Launch PS3s could play PS2 games; later versions couldn't. The Wii could go online; the Wii Mini couldn't. Early Wii models could play GameCube games; later versions could not. Exclusive support for UHD BD (as a media format only, playing movies, TV shows, etc.) in a later model would be less of a big deal than any of those. Even just getting into media features, the fat PS3 can't bitstream DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD, but the slim PS3 can. Why do you think this would be unprecedented?

 

[jeff_rigby]

That's not true in the slightest, though. If games come on the same media as ever and can be played by every iteration of every PS4 console, nothing is in any way broken. Regardless of which PS4s do or don't get UHD BD support, we've already been told that developers are limited to plain old BD-50 discs (or at least that's the consensus in the leaks).

The launch 360s didn't have HDMI out; later versions did. Launch PS3s could play PS2 games; later versions couldn't. The Wii could go online; the Wii Mini couldn't. Early Wii models could play GameCube games; later versions could not. Exclusive support for UHD BD (as a media format only, playing movies, TV shows, etc.) in a later model would be less of a big deal than any of those. Even just getting into media features, the fat PS3 can't bitstream DTS-HD Master Audio or Dolby TrueHD, but the slim PS3 can. Why do you think this would be unprecedented?

Imagine that the PS2 was designed to introduce:

1) DVD
2) ATSC 1 using the codec and standards for DVD to introduce and support Digital TVs with 480i and 480P

Imagine that the PS3 was designed to: (CEA-2014 released in 2007)

1) To set and support a standard for ATSC 2 as a STB using the HD Blu-ray codec and standards (1080P and S3D using frame packed side by side) XTV using a subset of HTML4
2) HD Blu-ray
3) DLNA with DTCP-IP which changes to Vidipath DLNA 2 with a Playready firmware update
4) IPTV using the Engine out of a webkit HTML5 browser
5) 3D Frame packed side by side
6) Browser HTML4 then upgraded to HTML5
7) XMB as XML which is a subset of HTML4

And the PS4 was designed to:

1) To set and support ATSC 3 as a STB using a UHD Blu-ray player with digital bridge as the software stack for the STB. (Digital bridge to support 1080P ATSC 2 TVs.)
2) UHD Blu-ray and Digital bridge
3) Vidipath DLNA 4 (used for the UHD blu-ray digital bridge)
4) VR (envisioned for ATSC 3 and UHD Blu-ray)
5) UHD IPTV
6) Browser HTML5
7) 3D usign HEVC multi-view plus depthmap (all 4K delivery including ATSC 3, UHD Blu-ray and works better with VR).
8) Browser desktop based on WebGL

Taking UHD blu-ray out of the PS4 and XB1 removes the free HEVC codec for non-commercial use and eliminates the UHD Blu-ray with digital bridge which is one of the three Vidipath sources for media to share in the home. HD blu-ray media will also be shared via the digital bridge and is expected to be another source of revenue. A small fee may be charged to copy the HD movie to the hard disk making it available to other Vidipath platforms in the same domain.

 

[jeff_rigby]

From the Xbox 1.5 thread:

http://www.tweaktown.com/news/51972...e-powerful-ps4-neo-rocks-10-tflops/index.html

10 TFLOPs of performance is more than the 8.6 TFLOPs an AMD Radeon R9 Fury X can belt out, so we could see full native 4K gaming on the new Xbox NeXt. Phil Spencer has hinted that hardware upgrades, component swapping, and even possible external GPUs could come to next-gen Xbox consoles, so we could see that with the Xbox NeXt.

In Letters by the EU related to voluntary energy efficiency, 2017 is mentioned as:
1) When Third Tier energy Efficiency starts
2) Easier repair with replaceable components.

I don't remember which paper has this but the Link to the site that mentioned the PS4 and XB1 as UHD Capable is here and in that paper it links to other letters.

This supports the NEO and/or a Xbox iteration. Which components are replaceable and external GPU on which console is highly speculative. If it's an external GPU then the LAN port on both consoles may support this. It's one of AMD's coming features for embedded PCs: LAN with HSA IOMMU supporting AMD XConnect.

AMD Revolutionizes External GPUs for Notebooks with AMD XConnect™ Technology in Collaboration with Intel and Razer

http://www.amd.com/en-us/innovations/software-technologies/technologies-gaming/xconnect

 

[jeff_rigby]

The HTML Media Extensions Working Group was extended today (April 2016) until the end of September 2016. As part of making video a first class citizen of the Web, an effort started by HTML5 itself in 2007, W3C has been working on many extension specifications for the Open Web Platform: capturing images from the local device camera, handling of video streams and tracks, captioning and other enhancements for accessibility, audio processing, real-time communications, etc. The HTML Media Extensions Working Group is working on two of those extensions: Media Sources Extensions (MSE), for facilitating adaptive and live streaming, and Encrypted Media Extensions (EME), for playback of protected content. Both are extension specifications to enhance the Open Web Platform with rich media support.

Since all UHD Media uses HTML5 <video> MSE EME in some manor (UHD BLu-ray uses the C-ENC format but with AACS2) this could explain the PS4 and XB1 as UHD Capable Consoles not being firmware updated till after September 2016. Firmware 4.0 should occur after this date, in any case it's usually sometime end of September to middle of November. PS4 VR starts October and a firmware update should occur before then.

AMD and Nvidia just released drivers for OpenVX so Microsoft and Sony should do the same for the PS4 and XB1 soon. Open VX uses accelerators (25 times more efficient) that are vender specific in addition to GPU compute and complements openCV which uses primarily GPU compute or openCL. The accelerators for the PS4 are Xtensa processors in Southbridge. Because of their location they can be used to pre and post process video while the XB1 Xtensa processors are in the APU and can be used for more. The Kinect camera already pre processes video.

Developers will have access to this early and games or APPs that rely on this released after firmware update 4.0.

 

[Markitron]

Someone is gonna get an epic tag as a result of this thread

 

[Marty Chinn]

Looks like Rigby's theory is officially falling apart with the official announcement of the Xbox One S being a 4K UHD Blu Ray player out in August, not September, and no sign of the original Xbox One being updated for UHD Blu Ray in the process.

 

[dr_rus]

Looks like Rigby's theory is officially falling apart with the official announcement of the Xbox One S being a 4K UHD Blu Ray player out in August, not September, and no sign of the original Xbox One being updated for UHD Blu Ray in the process.

Shocking.

 

[Stinkles]

Someone is gonna get an epic tag as a result of this thread

I hope not. Mental illness is no joke.

 

[rahulkadukar]

Looks like Rigby's theory is officially falling apart with the official announcement of the Xbox One S being a 4K UHD Blu Ray player out in August, not September, and no sign of the original Xbox One being updated for UHD Blu Ray in the process.

It was never going to happen, they had not even finalized the spec in 2013 when these launched. This is never going to happen irrespective of the length of posts that Jeff keeps on posting.

 

[Kysen]

Jeff finally shown as being GAFs misterxmedia. As if it wasn't obvious before he had no idea what he was talking about.

 

[cakely]

Looks like Rigby's theory is officially falling apart with the official announcement of the Xbox One S being a 4K UHD Blu Ray player out in August, not September, and no sign of the original Xbox One being updated for UHD Blu Ray in the process.

A theory actually has to be put together before it can fall apart.

 

[outunderthestars]

Looks like Rigby's theory is officially falling apart with the official announcement of the Xbox One S being a 4K UHD Blu Ray player out in August, not September, and no sign of the original Xbox One being updated for UHD Blu Ray in the process.

Yep.

 

[Venom Fox]

OK guys. Jeff clearly believed in himself and his theories so let's not start ganging up on him...

 

[Adam Tyner]

A theory actually has to be put together before it can fall apart.

To Jeff's mind, this wasn't a theory: it was a certainty.

I'm curious to see how he responds to all of this. My guess: he'll say that there is a firmware update coming, but Microsoft is keeping it under wraps to promote the Slim. He'll also probably say that even though the Slim releases in August, Ultra HD Blu-ray capability won't be patched in until September or October. (Because it's not like you can go to Best Buy and pick up an Ultra HD Blu-ray player now or anything. All of that has to wait for HTML5 <video> MSE EME and on and on and on.)

 

[Marty Chinn]

It was never going to happen, they had not even finalized the spec in 2013 when these launched. This is never going to happen irrespective of the length of posts that Jeff keeps on posting.

We all knew that. Plenty of people pointed out the flaws in his argument and provided other evidence that explained away his theories. This however is the first real official proof it's not happening.

OK guys. Jeff clearly believed in himself and his theories so let's not start ganging up on him...

The thing is he dug his heels in and not once ever conceded any single point when evidence and explanation was brought before him. He kind of needs the wake up call.

 

[Lone Wolf]

To Jeff's mind, this wasn't a theory: it was a certainty.

I'm curious to see how he responds to all of this. My guess: he'll say that there is a firmware update coming, but Microsoft is keeping it under wraps to promote the Slim. He'll also probably say that even though the Slim releases in August, Ultra HD Blu-ray capability won't be patched in until September or October. (Because it's not like you can go to Best Buy and pick up an Ultra HD Blu-ray player now or anything. All of that has to wait for HTML5 <video> MSE EME and on and on and on.)

So what will his excuse be for the PS4?

 

[jeff_rigby]

OK guys. Jeff clearly believed in himself and his theories so let's not start ganging up on him...

Let them, it makes it that much more delicious later.

Chinn, NO ONE brought any evidence to this thread that the Launch consoles would not support ALL UHD media. I brought evidence to this thread that they could and were officially UHD capable. I then made the statement that they WILL support UHD blu-ray and for ADAM who has equivocated stating it might be possible but he takes issue only with my definite statement that it WILL, he should be finding issue with your definite statement that they will not support UHD Blu-ray.

What reason have you guys for the delay from Jan 2016 when it was scheduled for the Launch consoles to be firmware updated for UHD? Twice now I have posted on articles mentioning work on HTML5 <video> Trick modes and commercial insertion as well as MSE EME.

If you guys bother to look, Microsoft still has no UHD blu-ray Licence and Sony has every licence for every platform and now a BD-ROM4 (UHD drive). Who is making the Player for the Xbox1 Slim and since still no licence except possibly Sony, why do you guys think it won't be delayed? Adam has stated that Sony writing the UHD Player for Microsoft is an extreme stretch but we are 30 to 60 days out from an August XB1 slim Launch and No licence for Microsoft. https://www.blu-raydisc.info/licensee-list/flla-rom4-licenseelist.php

Do any of you know what the UHD player will look like and how it will work with an embedded platform where the vendor (Microsoft) provides the HEVC codec, Player, HDCP2 encryption and hooks for C-ENC DRM as well as the Key and negotiation to run on the TEE??? You think I am wrong because I quote an article mentioning September and it may be coming in August 30+ days earlier. This is me relying on articles and taking them at face value and the author could be wrong or things change.

 

[Graphics Horse]

What reason have you guys for the delay from Jan 2016 when it was scheduled for the Launch consoles to be firmware updated for UHD?

I don't think it's on us to provide a reason for something like that.
Why are you taking about MS not being licensed now? Doesn't that contradict your original argument?

 

[NoctisVsStar]

Looks like Rigby's theory is officially falling apart with the official announcement of the Xbox One S being a 4K UHD Blu Ray player out in August, not September, and no sign of the original Xbox One being updated for UHD Blu Ray in the process.

Delusional as usual lol

 

[Adam Tyner]

What reason have you guys for the delay from Jan 2016 when it was scheduled for the Launch consoles to be firmware updated for UHD?

What delay? When did Microsoft and/or Sony ever say "hey, we're going to update every version of our consoles in January to support Ultra HD playback"? You're extrapolating wildly to arrive at the conclusion that there was ever a firmware update in the first place.

If you guys bother to look, Microsoft still has no UHD blu-ray Licence

1. We don't know how frequently updated the BDA's online lists are.
2. Microsoft's name wouldn't have to appear in any of these lists for UHD BD support to be a part of future Xbox hardware anyway.
3. Have you looked at how many of the other BD license categories Microsoft's name is listed under? They're not listed as a licensee of ROM3, ROM2, R1, R2, R3, RE2, RE3,or RE4 either.
4. Microsoft is on the BDA board and has repeatedly said today that the Slim will support UHD BD, so what is there to worry about?

 

[jacobeid]

noooo why'd you wake Jeff again.

 

[jeff_rigby]

I don't think it's on us to provide a reason for something like that.
Why are you talking about MS not being licensed now? Doesn't that contradict your original argument?

No, I've stated the microsoft-sony.com domain registration by Microsoft was possibly for Microsoft to handle the embedded DRM and Sony the UHD Blu-ray parts for the Consoles and PCs. This time since all UHD Media uses HTML5 for the UI and HTML5 <video> EME MSE low level C-ENC format for the player and DRM hooks, writing the UHD Player is much easier but there are more APIs that have to comply with standards across multiple platforms. This is likely why there are no UHD Blu-ray PC applications and no Game Console UHD blu-ray players yet.

Every PDF by Panasonic or Sony mentioned Playready ND as the UHD Blu-ray Digital bridge in home streaming DRM and Sony lists Playready and WMDRM in the PS4 software stack.

 

[jeff_rigby]

What delay? When did Microsoft and/or Sony ever say "hey, we're going to update every version of our consoles in January to support Ultra HD playback"? You're extrapolating wildly to arrive at the conclusion that there was ever a firmware update in the first place.

The papers I quoted mention the UHD Firmware update for the Launch consoles would occur Jan 2016.

(1) We don't know how frequently updated the BDA's online lists are.

They just added Sony with a UHD drive licence so within days.

(2) Microsoft's name wouldn't have to appear in any of these lists for UHD BD support to be a part of future Xbox hardware anyway. (3) Microsoft is on the BDA board and has repeatedly said today that the Slim will support UHD BD, so what is there to worry about?

Yup it is UHD capable and could be firmware updated later after Microsoft buys the licence.

The theme by Chinn and others is that I am wrong because I quoted an article stating September for a vital part of the UHD stack and speculated that means after September for a UHD Blu-ray firmware update and the XB1 slim will ship in August with the assumption it will have UHD blu-ray support from day one.

 

[Adam Tyner]

The papers I quoted mention the UHD Firmware update for the Launch consoles would occur Jan 2016.

Quote specifically where those documents said something to the effect of "every version of the PS4 and Xbox One will have a firmware update in January 2016 to support UHD media".

If it only says something vague like "Jan 2016 - UHD capable", then you're extrapolating, and the firmware update is anything but "official".

They just added Sony with a UHD drive licence so within days.

Microsoft isn't listed as a licensee of ROM3, ROM2, R1, R2, R3, RE2, RE3,or RE4 either.

Does that mean that the launch Xbox One doesn't have a Blu-ray drive and can't playback regular BD media either?

and speculated that means after September for a UHD Blu-ray firmware update

If you're speculating, don't spout off garbage like:

Both the PS4 and Xb1 launch Game consoles will be firmware updated in 2016 (by second week of October).

Present your speculation as speculation, not as immutable fact.

 

[old manatee]

Man would it be great if jeff_rigby was vindicated.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Quote specifically where those documents said something to the effect of "every version of the PS4 and Xbox One will have a firmware update in January 2016 to support UHD media". Page 10 in the letter I cite has Jan 2014 which is the Launch XB1 and PS4 date on a line with 90 watts for Tier 1 HD and UHD consoles and 70 watts for Tier 3 for both HD and UHD starting 2017 which should be the XB1 slim, NEO and Scorpio.

If it only says something vague like "Jan 2016 - UHD capable", then you're extrapolating.

I stated only the Launch (2013) consoles are mentioned for a UHD update Jan 2016. Page 10 in the first letter I cite has Navigation Tier 1 starting Jan 2014 with HD and UHD consoles (XB1 and PS4 Launch) using 90 watts and Tier 3 starting Jan 2017 with HD and UHD concoles using 70 watts which should be the Neo, XB1 and XB1 Slim.

Just below is media playback mode which is clearer as to when UHD starts Jan 2016. The second letter states the PS4 and XB1 are UHD Capable and that letter is from April 2015. http://www.eceee.org/static/media/u.../games-consoles-va-letter-to-stakeholders.pdf

Microsoft isn't listed as a licensee of ROM3, ROM2, R1, R2, R3, RE2, RE3,or RE4 either.

Does that mean that the launch Xbox One doesn't have a Blu-ray drive and can't playback regular BD media either?

It means that Microsoft did not write the HD blu-ray player for the XB1 but there are multiple other third parties that could have including Sony. No ROM3 drive listed with a Microsoft licence means Microsoft didn't make the drive...how is that relevant?

If you're speculating, don't spout off garbage like:

Both the PS4 and Xb1 launch Game consoles will be firmware updated in 2016 (by second week of October).

Present your speculation as speculation, not as immutable fact.

That statement is not wrong as anything south of the Second week in October is also August or September of 2016. I'm concerned with the delay so I am speculating on the latest it should come.

 

[NoctisVsStar]

Man would it be great if jeff_rigby was vindicated.

 

[Adam Tyner]

I stated only the Launch (2013) consoles are mentioned for a UHD update Jan 2016. Page 10 in the first letter I cite has Tier 1 starting Jan 2014 with HD and UHD consoles (XB1 and PS4 Launch) using 90 watts and Tier 3 starting Jan 2017 with HD and UHD concoles using 70 watts which should be the Neo, XB1 and XB1 Slim.

Okay, so there's nothing about a firmware update scheduled for January 2016. Gotcha.

It means that Microsoft did not write the HD blu-ray player for the XB1 but there are multiple other third parties that could have including Sony. No ROM3 drive listed with a Microsoft licence means Microsoft didn't make the drive...how is that relevant?

What I'm getting at is that you keep droning on about the significance of Microsoft not being listed as a licensee of ROM4 when they're not listed as a licensee of anything else either. It's obviously not relevant.

That statement is not wrong as anything south of the Second week in October is also August or September of 2016. I'm concerned with the delay so I am speculating on the latest it should come.

...which is why you fundamentally don't understand the difference between fact and speculation. If you're guessing, even if it's an informed guess, don't say that something will happen. It's common sense.

 

[Vidal]

Man would it be great if jeff_rigby was vindicated.

Sony opens the conference:

"We've heard you wanted 4k blu-ray, right? Just update your console now. This one is for you Jeff!"

*drops the mic

 

[horkrux]

Let them, it makes it that much more delicious later. Chinn, NO ONE brought any evidence to this thread that the Launch consoles would not support ALL UHD media. I brought evidence to this thread that they could and were officially UHD capable. I then made the statement that they WILL support UHD blu-ray and for ADAM who has equivocated stating it might be possible but he takes issue only with my definite statement that it WILL, he should be finding issue with your definite statement that they will not support UHD Blu-ray.

Your evidence was never sufficient, Jeff. In fact you would need at least a BDXL-compatible drive to even hope to be able to playback UHD discs (which are based on BDXL specifications afaik) with the help of a firmware update. Neither Xbox One nor PS4 has such a drive.

A three-layer disc was refered to as 'version 2' in that one patent from 2010 so you've jumped to the conclusion that newer drives would (because they are new I guess) be 'version 2' compliant. The only three-layered discs are BDXL though and they are not supported by your average BD player, old or new, unless they are explicitly designed for the purpose of reading/writing those discs. A drive that does not support those discs is not outdated, it just serves a different purpose, which is way you may take the newest (non-UHD/BDXL) drive on the market and it won't be able to read that disc.

 

[ukas]

Sony opens the conference:

"We've heard you wanted 4k blu-ray, right? Just update your console now. This one is for you Jeff!"

*drops the mic

That would be funny as shit.

You guys may give him shit for his tinfoilness, but no one makes you guys come in here and listen to him. I just think he gets a lot of undeserved bullshit, but whatever continue to ridicule away.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Okay, so there's nothing about a firmware update scheduled for January 2016. Gotcha.

can you follow a chart? UHD is not listed in the Media playback power tiers till Jan 2016.

What I'm getting at is that you keep droning on about the significance of Microsoft not being listed as a licensee of ROM4 when they're not listed as a licensee of anything else either. It's obviously not relevant.

It's only not relevant if Microsoft is not writing the UHD Blu-ray player. So if they aren't then who is? There are only 3 Licences for a UHD Blu-ray player.

...which is why you fundamentally don't understand the difference between fact and speculation. If you're guessing, even if it's an informed guess, don't say that something will happen. It's common sense.

And we are back to my making definite statements but no criticism for others in this thread that do the same or Articles that make definite statements that the Launch Consoles can't.

 

[horkrux]

This one is for you Jeff!

 

[Goron2000]

What is this thread? Why are people sniping at Jeff? He's presenting evidence that he has found and believes to be correct, what makes people think they can come in here and make personal insults? I enjoy Jeff's threads and hope to see him continue his indepth research.

Please show some respect.

 

[jeff_rigby]

Your evidence was never sufficient, Jeff. In fact you would need at least a BDXL-compatible drive to even hope to be able to playback UHD discs (which are based on BDXL specifications afaik) with the help of a firmware update. Neither Xbox One nor PS4 has such a drive.

A three-layer disc was refered to as 'version 2' in that one patent from 2010 so you've jumped to the conclusion that newer drives would (because they are new I guess) be 'version 2' compliant. The only three-layered discs are BDXL though and they are not supported by your average BD player, old or new, unless they are explicitly designed for the purpose of reading/writing those discs. A drive that does not support those discs is not outdated, it just serves a different purpose, which is way you may take the newest (non-UHD/BDXL) drive on the market and it won't be able to read that disc.

Re-read the patent.

1) BDXL specs are from the 2010 BD-R paper. Even BDXL drives need a firmware update to properly work with a UHD Player but they can read version 2 disks which are the UHD Disks.
2) The 2010 patent mentioned Version 2 disks as 3 or more layers with the Panasonic-Sony tweak (reducing the mark length) which Sony says can be read by a standard drive that is firmware updated and all drives can read 3 layers. Reducing the mark length can create jitter and the routine that corrects jitter has to be updated or it's unreliable. This is why the patent covers a way to make the version 2 disk unreadable on a drive that has not been firmware updated for the Sony- Panasonic tweak. This is the major change for version 2 disks mentioned in the Mount Fuji book. The 2010 patent is not clear until you read the Mount Fuji book changes and when I first explained what the patent meant I was not, at that time, able to explain it clearly.
3) The Mount Fuji drive book 9 has the drive changes for UHD blu-ray and they are all firmware updates.

 

[Adam Tyner]

can you follow a chart? UHD is not listed in the Media playback power tiers till Jan 2016.

It's not convincing enough to me to inarguably, inherently mean a firmware update for UHD playback in every version of every console.

And we are back to my making definite statements but no criticism for others in this thread that do the same or Articles that make definite statements that the Launch Consoles can't.

Last I checked, the launch consoles can't play UHD BD media. They can't until they can, if that day ever comes. The point remains that even if it's technically possible, there's zero assurance that it'll come to pass. There are more arguments to be made about why it won't happen than why it's an inevitability.

If you take issue with people making certain definitive statements, correct them. Since you hate it when other people with questionable evidence make logically shaky and undeservedly definitive statements of fact, in what conceivable way does it makes sense for you to do the exact same thing?

It's only not relevant if Microsoft is not writing the UHD Blu-ray player. So if they aren't then who is? There are only 3 Licences for a UHD Blu-ray player.

That we know of. I'd be astonished if it's Sony. The developer of the software doesn't matter, though, since obviously there will be some method to play back UHD BDs on whatever models of Xbox hardware allow it.

What is this thread? Why are people sniping at Jeff? He's presenting evidence that he has found and believes to be correct

My issue is that he's spreading misinformation. People come into these threads and mistakenly believe that there has been some sort of official confirmation that Ultra HD Blu-ray playback is coming to these consoles. If he'd just say "this is what I've read, and this is what I think will happen", I'd have no problem with that. Not only he does he present his somewhat shaky speculation as fact, he can be incredibly condescending to anyone who disagrees.

A sound way to approach this would be to look at various pieces of evidence and draw a conclusion. I might be off-base, but I get the sense that Jeff starts with a conclusion, and then everything he sees is either evidence supporting his belief (no matter how much of a stretch it is to make the puzzle pieces fit) or are lies/misinformation/inaccurate.

 

[horkrux]

Re-read the patent.

1) BDXL specs are from the 2010 BD-R paper. Even BDXL drives need a firmware update to properly work with a UHD Player but they can read version 2 disks which are the UHD Disks.
2) The 2010 patent mentioned Version 2 disks as 3 or more layers with the Panasonic-Sony tweak (reducing the mark length) which Sony says can be read by a standard drive that is firmware updated and all drives can read 3 layers. Reducing the mark length can create jitter and the routine that corrects jitter has to be updated or it's unreliable. This is why the patent covers a way to make the version 2 disk unreadable on a drive that has not been firmware updated for the Sony- Panasonic tweak. This is the major change for version 2 disks mentioned in the Mount Fuji book. The 2010 patent is not clear until you read the Mount Fuji book changes and when I first explained what the patent meant I was not, at that time, able to explain it clearly.
3) The Mount Fuji drive book 9 has the drive changes for UHD blu-ray and they are all firmware updates.

The patent itself covers a way to deal with these incompatible discs: Return errors (or something along those lines). That's all it does by its own. Which is why I think it has always rather contradicted your argument.

And since you have provided a >1000 page document (Mt. Fuji), please point me to pages that support your argument. I think you can save yourself the trouble though, because this document seems to solely deal with software, so of course it won't mention required physical changes. Hell, it says on the title page that 'this document provides for commands to implement'. Just from that I would think that it doesn't tell you how to actually build your drive at all. I might be totally off, but I believe you have just misunderstood what that document provides and jumped to the conclusion, that all changes could simply be made in software.

Please point me to that 'Panasonic-Sony tweak' though. I don't know what to look for.