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[PK Gaming]

Expectations from who? Yourself?

I don't load up a game and go "man Kratos is so awesome, i'll never be as cool as him."

actually scratch Kratos is kind of a massive loser

I don't load up Uncharted and go "man Nathan Drake is so awesome and handsome, i'll never be as cool or as successful as him."

Instead, it's more like "look at how much fun i'm having by shooting up dudes and jumping around like i'm goddamn indiana jones."

There are no unrealistic expectations being set here. People don't suddenly say "man, guys aren't as attractive as Nathan Drake, what a bummer! All guys who don't match up to that standard are shit!" because they already have movie stars and tv actors that do that for them.

The entire OP is just incredibly confusing to me. It reads like some fever dream.

 

[Neff]

When developers make fictional people to represent me, I'd rather they were more attractive than not, unless there's a good reason for it.

 

[Camp Freddie]

Look at Nathan Drake, he's in his late 30s, early 40s, by UC4 and he has a perfect hairline, and still looks like he's in perfect shape. What the hell? He's a pencil pusher and a diver. How does he retain that physique?

I guess all that mass murderizing must burn a few calories.

I would like to see more diversity, but it just comes down to most protagonists doing crazy athletic action hero shit that requires an action hero physique.

As people have commented, a Danny de Vito protagonist would be a perfect fit for GTA6.

On the other hand, I think men have it good for supporting characters. They usually include all kinds of body shapes, whereas women are almost always big-boobed and athletic, (unless they're the character's grandmother or something!)

 

[stan423321]

I don't load up a game and go "man Kratos is so awesome, i'll never be as cool as him."

actually scratch Kratos is kind of a massive loser

Which leads a realistic mind to "man, Kratos is such a massive loser, and I won't even be as cool as him".

 

[Intheflorsh]

Go play Max Payne 3 if you want that dad bod look. Max is a schlubby dude through and through.

 

[saturnine]

I mean, you're arguing for male characters to be less fit and attractive. That's kind of a hard sell for an image based medium where the vast majority of customers expect heroes to look heroic by current standards.

If someone wants to play as some tubby balding guy so they can feel better about themselves, I guess that's valid, but it's a highly unrealistic expectation for games that don't have custom character options.

And personally speaking, I'd rather my guy looked stylish or hot than relatable.

Video games are more than feeding customers what they expect. They can be more, at least.

Not "less fit and attractive", simply less "summer blockbuster action movie protagonist / entirely interchangeable superhero physic", which is an incredibly narrow range of "attractiveness". There is a world of possibilities between looking like a greek statue and being a fat balding dude. And it's not about "playing as someone who looks like me doing rad things so I can feel better", because that would be wish fulfilment, which is stupid. You don't need the protagonist to look like you to experience catharsis or relate to them.

I like stylish characters too, but like I said, most protagonists portrayed in AAA videogames fit a really narrow definition of "stylish" (which I would argue, is not very stylish at all by being so derivative and by the number).

 

[Monocle]

Which leads a realistic mind to "man, Kratos is such a massive loser, and I won't even be as cool as him".

Or alternatively, "Man, Kratos is such a massive loser, even though he's crazy strong and fit as hell. Maybe that stuff isn't necessary to have an awesome life!"

Video games are more than feeding customers what they expect. They can be more, at least.

They are more. It's just that some character types are more marketable than others. Focus testing tends to lead to the standard generic, fit, short-haired, white male protagonist.

Not "less fit and attractive", simply less "summer blockbuster action movie protagonist / entirely interchangeable superhero physic", which is an incredibly narrow range of "attractiveness". There is a world of possibilities between looking like a greek statue and being a fat balding dude. And it's not about "playing as someone who looks like me doing rad things so I can feel better", because that would be wish fulfilment, which is stupid. You don't need the protagonist to look like you to experience catharsis or relate to them.

I like stylish characters too, but like I said, most protagonists portrayed in AAA videogames fit a really narrow definition of "stylish" (which I would argue, is not very stylish at all by being so derivative and by the number).

I do see your point. I guess I'd suggest looking for diversity outside of AAA games then, because with big budgets come a certain conservatism. No publisher wants to risk a massive loss by using a potentially unmarketable main character.

Smaller profile games can risk more because they can target niche audiences and make a profit without catering to the broad and bland majority.

 

[*Splinter]

Eh, you use fighting game characters as an example - I'm fairly sure most professional fights are reasonably fit?

If you have a story where an average Joe gets into some crazy adventure then sure, they should maybe look a little less toned. But I can't think of many games using that as a premise.

Half Life? Wasn't freeman balding and slightly underweight?

The "Uncharted" adventure involving the out of shape guy who got out of breath and gunned down in the first chapter isn't really worth playing.

 

[Harlequin]

If your average guy cared more about how they and other men looked you'd have more of a point. Most men only do as much grooming as is deemed socially necessary and move along with their day. The pressure men feel about being bald, fat or short already comes from real life. The amount a game would add onto this pressure is going to be insignificant.

You may have had a point 30 years ago but nowdays, there's very much pressure on men to conform to certain beauty standards. Perhaps it's not quite at the same point as it is for women yet but it's slowly getting there. Not to mention that a pressure to conform to appearances or behaviours is not just limited to looking "pretty" or attractive but also very much applies to the way a man is expected to talk, act and dress to fulfill our society's arbitrary idea of what is "manly" and what isn't.

 

[saturnine]

They are more. It's just that some character types are more marketable than others. Focus testing tends to lead to the standard generic, fit, short-haired, white male protagonist.

I do see your point. I guess I'd suggest looking for diversity outside of AAA games then, because with big budgets come a certain conservatism. No publisher wants to risk a massive loss by using a potentially unmarketable main character.

Smaller profile games can risk more because they can target niche audiences and make a profit without catering to the broad and bland majority.

Oh but I agree, though I feel it's still important to criticize them for their conservatism. They are not impervious to change, as seen with the small effects of feminist criticism these last few years. I'm not daft, I realize that at the end of the day the majority of AAA protagonists will probably always be the same, but maybe they'll be a little less of a majority in the future.

 

[Mista Koo]

Culturally we prefer looking at good looking people and we're used to seeing them everywhere. At least in video games they don't tell average looking people that they're ugly.

Yes.

Spoiler

Linked for slight NSFW?

Where do you work where that would be slight?

 

[#1 defender]

There are no pigeons on the cover of national geographic. There are Hawks, Cassowaries, Eagles, Condors, but not pigeons. Why? Because why would you put something that's common or average on the cover of a magazine? "Extra Extra! That ordinary thing you see 100 times a day in your own life!" - said no newsboy ever. People see hundreds of pigeons every day, why would they buy a magazine with a pigeon on the cover? Magazine covers, television, movies and videogames are for the exceptional. The Hawks, Cassowaries, Eagles and Condors.

Not pigeons.

Yeah, but at least Condors are bald.

 

[Polioliolio]

I agree with you, but not because it harms my self image, but it makes it difficult to take the story and characters seriously.

I find the worst to be Final Fantasy though. Remember when Snow got hurt (obvious excuse to have a scene of him without a shirt) and his pecs were perfectly chiseled and flexed, even while resting? And then he comes out and makes a generic speech about being heroes or some dumb shit.. Wow. I don't believe for a second that Snow actually goes to the gym. How about that Wakka wannabe with the goofy hair and the crystalline abs. Holy shit. No way. It's just too silly. It would take each of these characters 5 or 6 hours to do their hair everyday, yet they never change their outfits like once (exception is getting Snow's shirt off). Show me they are real. Show me they take a shit sometimes and sneeze and do human things.

When Dragonballz characters look like that, I believe it. But when final fantasy does it, it's sooo dorky.

Resident Evil has gone glamour too. So idealized. Every character is a perfect stereotype now. Here's a good resident evil game with realistic characters: Remake (gc).
After that, they turned the characters into jokes. Chris is perfect in REmake. He's real. I buy it. It's scarier because it's not god damn stupid.

There's definitely a place for beefy muscle heads and unrealistic bods. They're great! But if you're trying to make something emotional and relatable, or serious and spooky, that's where it feels just stupid, without a good explanation for it.

 

[Fahzgoolin]

OP, I use to have the EXACT problem as you my friend. I even avoided playing certain games with my wife (Resident Evil 5 is one ironically) because I was insecure. I was always kinda chubby and worked out like crazy and barely saw results. My favorite hobby became a source of shame and self loathing.

I'm honestly pleased to see you open yourself up and be honest about it. Especially on a forum with a lot of brutally unkind/insensitive people.

I just wanna say that it all comes to how you eat. Working out is a small part of it. It's not even about restricting calories, it's about the quality of your food. I for example went vegan not too long ago, eat a lot more than I ever did, and now I'm 20lbs lighter than when I started and still going.

Also check out FitnessGaf in the off topic community section. Great guys (nerds) that are in great shape. They won't berate you, but would be glad to help.

Btw, it also helps to realize that it's simply more appealing to have characters that are healthy looking and capable of feats of athletic strength. Games, especially action games, will lean towards that ideal. They arent trying to be offensive. They can certainly be extreme towards both genders, but just think of them as healthy, NOT as sexy.

Hit me up in PM's if you wanna talk. I feel for you and have been there.

 

[thelastcrusader]

OP, I use to have the EXACT problem as you my friend. I even avoided playing certain games with my wife (Resident Evil 5 is one ironically) because I was insecure. I was always kinda chubby and worked out like crazy and barely saw results. My favorite hobby became a source of shame and self loathing.

I'm honestly pleased to see you open yourself up and be honest about it. Especially on a forum with a lot of brutally unkind/insensitive people.

I just wanna say that it all comes to how you eat. Working out is a small part of it. It's not even about restricting calories, it's about the quality of your food. I for example went vegan not too long ago, eat a lot more than I ever did, and now I'm 20lbs lighter than when I started and still going.

Also check out FitnessGaf in the off topic community section. Great guys (nerds) that are in great shape. They won't berate you, but would be glad to help.

Btw, it also helps to realize that it's simply more appealing to have characters that are healthy looking and capable of feats of athletic strength. Games, especially action games, will lean towards that ideal. They arent trying to be offensive. They can certainly be extreme towards both genders, but just think of them as healthy, NOT as sexy.

Hit me up in PM's if you wanna talk. I feel for you and have been there.

Thanks I appreciate it. And yeah I'm with you on the eating. I pretty much drink nothing but water and eat very strictly. It just peeves me how people want to dismiss this as a non issue when it is in fact very real. It's almost like men aren't allowed to feel insecure.

 

[Iva Demilcol]

Video game characters dont have to represent what real people look like.

Be honest, would you want to play a GTA game with protag that looks like Danny Devito?

Yes, why not?

 

[ghst]

Be honest, would you want to play a GTA game with protag that looks like Danny Devito?

video games are about role play. since i'm already perfection itself there's no real role play going on when the protag is some shredded adonis with 10/10 charisma. i want to play losers and fuckups.

 

[Ishan]

Op if the video game characters could do have of the shit they pull of they would be fucking fit . Acrobatic jumps climbing running non stop jumping ducking all that takes energy and fitness . Now if you're specifically talking of something like Stanley parable or gone home maybe but those are first person but I'm sure there are similar things ...

 

[Ishan]

Thanks I appreciate it. And yeah I'm with you on the eating. I pretty much drink nothing but water and eat very strictly. It just peeves me how people want to dismiss this as a non issue when it is in fact very real. It's almost like men aren't allowed to feel insecure.

You're entirely entitled to feel insecure . Others aren't obliged to feel the same way identify or empathise even if they don't identify . I may feel insecure about money or my confidence or my intelligence etc doesn't mean someone else has to necessarily identify with it . Sucks yeah but that's also how a lot of men are . It's changing tho.

 

[The Hermit]

This is irony, right?

Yeah, I don't know what to believe anymore

But part of my daily training includes punching boulders, so what do I know.

 

[Seesaw15]

but how's his hairline tho

Rock solid.

 

[mnz]

It's kind of amazing how OP gets attacked and I don't get why. Because he is male? This is like the opposite of what I would have expected from this thread.

Isn't the fight for more representation in video games a big thing right now? What it going on?

 

[Ishan]

I'm absolutely not pushing anti-feminist anything. I completely sympathize with women getting more representation in videgames. Just like I do believe other races besides white need more representation. For example, I'm latino and would love a latino character that isn't just a stereotype. I'm just saying that the men that are in video games are all exaggerations. I don't know a single guy can that can match any of these males in real life.

I know many . You just don't hang out with guys who keep in great shape .

Edit: I personally am not in great shape I'm pretty average but nope those physiques aren't unrealistic at my uni a lot of the student athletes are in tremendous shape and I have a 37-40something friend who is jacked as shit ... Ironically talking of drake one of the last jobs he did was some scuba diving thingy . Ppl can be jacked and old op . And when young same .

 

[Spacejaws]

So...I get that male characters not looking glike your average joe and instrad being supermen is acceptable but... Wgat about women? i know in general the argument is that women are being treated more as a sex symbol than anything but what about games like overwatch which garnered a bit of criticism for having mostly young attractive women but not exactly scantily clad and were characterized fairly well.

I'm just trying to understand the other side of the argument here, we are happy with female protags being beautiful supermodels completely outwith the normal image (which is what is usually justly argued against in other media) as long as they are not treated as a sex image? Doesnt creating a female character that is a bombastic supermodel already pretty much make them a target for being concidered oversexualized? I mean look at the overwatch 'fan art'.

Ultiamtely Indont really know the argument in depth but is it just against sexy clothes and lack of characterization but we are happy to be running around as the pinnacle of human perfection? In my mind that just seems a bit odd like wanting to close down a corrupt bank but keep your savings account because the interest is nice :/

 

[purdobol]

How the hell are us real guys supposed to compete? I mean, am I the only that feels like he has shit self-esteem when the guys being plastered everywhere are practically gods?

P.S. I'm specifically picking on videogame characters so I put it in games forum.

We aren't?

You're comparing yourself to professional models. Which I can understand because they are actually leaving breathing humans. But still. They look good for a living...

On the other hand video game characters? Really? Are you competing with spiderman and batman too?

 

[Chuck Norris]

Michael from GTAV is in great shape? He is like the bare minimum of the shape a male should be in. Slightly pudgy but still some muscle on the frame

Just because the average American is obese doesn't mean games have to reflect it

 

[bidguy]

solution :

get shredded yourself

 

[Vincent Alexander]

The most popular video game character in the world has a dad bod and the ladies love him.

It helps he has the most delicious Italian sausage ever to grace the planet. Not too thick. Not too spicy. Just right.

 

[rubes7844]

Comparing yourself to video game characters??

 

[Brianimaniac]

Are the females that complain about this kind of thing really comparing themselves to video game characters?

It's really creepy to call people "females", you know?

 

[rubes7844]

It's really creepy to call people "females", you know?

What else do you call females?

 

[mnz]

It's really creepy to call people "females", you know?

What if they are female

 

[PSqueak]

Video game characters dont have to represent what real people look like.

Be honest, would you want to play a GTA game with protag that looks like Danny Devito?

What kind of question is this?

Of course i would.


In any case, you can always go back to the world's most famous videogame icon: an overweight, short plumber.

 

[vasametropolis]

No guy I know has the balls to tell a girl she's getting fat.

I've done it before in what I thought was a more sensitive way of putting it. Never. Again. I also don't recommend anyone try.

I don't do it because women (in my experience) don't handle this kind of feedback as well as men do. There could be multiple very valid medical reasons for gaining weight for either sex though, which I understand. It's because of this that I do think it's out of line to mention this to someone you are not close too, but otherwise it's fair game. I tell my friends all the time "If I start to get fat, you better let me know."

I would be especially appreciative of a female friend stepping up to the plate to tell me. I don't place too much stock in other people's opinions, but if the opposite sex (to which I'm attracted to) is telling me that I am becoming significantly less attractive due to something like weight gain or otherwise, that is valuable feedback no matter whether you intend to use it or not.

A person who you may be trying to attract always has the final say in what's attractive to them. For example, I'm not attracted to overweight girls and likely never will be. Nobody will ever convince me otherwise, unless it's me.

From the point of view of this topic of discussion, no, I don't necessarily think an effort needs to be made to show more diverse body types. Should Developer A feel free to do so? Sure, I wouldn't mind and think everyone should be accepting of that. It's not my preference and I don't think you'd necessarily want to glorify a potentially unhealthy image, but go for it. If Developer B has the opposite preference and wants to sculpt their male and female heroes like they were chiselled into the side of an ancient Greek or Roman rock, then hell yes, that is an awesome image to strive toward. It's the pinnacle of what your body can achieve, and it's wonderful.

And even with this giant wall, this only really applies to realistic video game characters. Mario, as used in several examples, is a wonderful little portly fellow. I guess my TLDR is this was only my opinion and I really don't think it's anything worth blowing out of proportion. Let the developer choose.

 

[purdobol]

In any case, you can always go back to the world's most famous videogame icon: an overweight, short plumber.

Or a pizza man that constantly eats what seems to be salami slices. He's in good health too. There are fruits in his diet. Occasional strawberry, apple or plum.
Don't know about his mental health though. He sees dead people... think it's ghosts or something.

 

[TGO]

real guys aren't competing with fantasy characters

Nope, Its Pop stars, Actors and Boy Bands for us but them as people in real life aren't any different, it's how people see them.
Although tbh, I don't think I would be out of place in a video game and usually todays games are based on real people.
And I'm not watching the Death Stranding trailer thinking oh look what I gotta live up too, because its just Norman Reedus.
Problem is when its a female, when they see someone like Charlize Theron, then its unrealistic expectations.
But its not, Those are real people and people look like that.
people know whats realistic and whats not, for example (as she was used for GTAV) for every Kate Upton character model that pops up there is someone saying its a unrealistic expectation/depiction of women.
even though to Kate Upton she is an every day girl
Joel from TLOU is realistic because there is somebody out who looks like that, There's somebody who looks like Drake too.
But Just because you don't look like that doesn't mean its unrealistic, you named Max Payne...outside his bullet dodging whats special about him?
Bruce Willis in Die Hard was just an everyday guy, Margot Robbie as Harley Quinn is yet another unrealistic complaint in the media, yeah shes Harley Quin she does dress unrealistic so does Batman in his Muscle suit, but Margot Robbie? you watch her in the TV soap neighbors and she's an everyday girl.
The unrealistic expectations comes from you, its the way you see them when in reality they ain't much different.

 

[Heavy_D206]

Go play Max Payne 3 if you want that dad bod look. Max is a schlubby dude through and through.

I totally forgot about that.

In that game he looks like "Fat Mac" from Always Sunny in Philadelphia haha

 

[Mohasus]

And that's what is great about video games, they can be whatever they want.
You won't see me complaining that I can drive a Lamborghini or a Ferrari or a F1 in a racing game because in the real world only a few lucky person in the world can.

If I were a creator, I'd like to make everything as perfect as I can.

 

[TGO]

It's kind of amazing how OP gets attacked and I don't get why. Because he is male? This is like the opposite of what I would have expected from this thread.

Isn't the fight for more representation in video games a big thing right now? What it going on?

There was guy who worked for Feminist frequency that formed the Pop Culture Agency, his patreon wasn't very successful.
Although it was just another feminist channel with a Male presenting it really, so its understandable why both Males and Females wasn't interested.

 

[SolidSnakex]

There was guy who worked for Feminist frequency that formed the Pop Culture Agency, his patreon wasn't very successful.
Although it was just another feminist channel with a Male presenting it really, so its understandable why both Males and Females wasn't interested.

Have you seen the shit that Jonathan McIntosh writes? That's the reason why his channel wasn't supported.

 

[thelastcrusader]

I totally forgot about that.

In that game he looks like "Fat Mac" from Always Sunny in Philadelphia haha

This is fat to you?

 

[TGO]

Have you seen the shit that Jonathan McIntosh writes? That's the reason why his channel wasn't supported.

Yeah well he was the one who set up feminist frequency, not surprising really.
Same stuff just different figure head.

 

[Vice]

There's quite a few studies on male body image and toys. The research is very interesting. I think it may be something the OP would like. Here's a quixk study I found through Google, http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.507.3004&rep=rep1&type=pdf

 

[.JayZii]

This is fat to you?

What a disgusting body. Would not bang.

3/10

 

[IvorB]

Wait... so guys that are in shape without a receding hairline are "unrealistic" now?

 

[grizzelye]

I'm too busy playing the game to think about these kinda issues. As OP says, more about the is individuals low self esteem.

 

[{insert code here}]

Kratos is bald. Even though he is pretty ripped.

Wow and I was playing Chains of Olympus not along too. Can't believe I forgot about Kratos.

 

[Capitan]

I prefer a robust character creator so i can freely look as ridiculous as possible.
really though, this has never bothered me, i don't really want to play as the skinny weakling i am.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Yeah well he was the one who set up feminist frequency, not surprising really.
Same stuff just different figure head.

There are quite a few people that really like FF and yet aren't fans of his at all. His views are way out there. So that's why it's not surprising that people weren't too anxious to support his new venture. There is an opportunity to discuss what he was trying to get funded, but people just don't want to hear it from him.

 

[walking fiend]

Yes, feminism discourse can and should be extended to include portrayal of any type of human in media and cultural goods.

Men, lemon, minority, majority, all are forced by media to accept certain characteristics as defining ideal features of the group they belong to.

I hate it.