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[oni-link]

Videogames don't need less of anything. Keep the stupid over-the-top sexuality, and have more of what he's talking about too.

1) It's a she, not a he
2) she, doesn't argue for less of anything, she argues for more of something
3) it's hard to make an insightful contribution to a thread when you don't read the OP

I can't say he's lying, but I'm not attracted to any videogame characters at all because polygons and sprites don't do it for me... not because of a personality deficiency. Although it is true, so many female characters are written to be little more than showpieces for their male counterparts.

But I also think virtually all videogame writing is abysmal, so.

A character is a character, whether that is in a film, a book or a game, what have polygons got to do with anything?

Yes, most videogame writing is abysmal, she is arguing for better writing (of women, specifically) but also saying this doesn't mean we should lose really "sexy" characters either

 

[Amir0x]

A character is a character, whether that is in a film, a book or a game, what have polygons got to do with anything?

Yes, most videogame writing is abysmal, she is arguing for better writing (of women, specifically) but also saying this doesn't mean we should lose really "sexy" characters either

Because polygons and sprites are not attractive to me. Pretty simple. I like actual living humans. Ones that are, ya know, alive and actually look fully like people, without jaggies, stylized weirdness or any other awkward artistic flourishes.

It's OK, we don't all have to be sexually attracted to the same things.

 

[Giolon]

2) she, doesn't argue for less of anything, she argues for more of something

Uh, it's right there in the title - " Video games need fewer 'sexy' women and more you can actually fancy"

 

[Suzushiiro]

Videogames don't need less of anything. Keep the stupid over-the-top sexuality, and have more of what he's talking about too.

Yeah, too many people seem to act like the video game industry is a zero-sum business and the only way for more of what they want to exist is for less of what they don't want to exist.

 

[oni-link]

Because polygons and sprites are not attractive to me. Pretty simple. I like actual living humans. Ones that are, ya know, alive and actually look fully like people, without jaggies, stylized weirdness or any other awkward artistic flourishes.

I can see your point, but we're talking about a character being attractive, not just, sexually attractive, you can't see a character in a novel either, but that doesn't mean a part of your brain won't think "if she were real she'd be cool to hang out with"

Her point is you don't get many characters you can think that about in games, because (like you said before) most characters in games are not well written

Uh, it's right there in the title - " Video games need fewer 'sexy' women and more you can actually fancy"

Well done for reading the title, but most articles can't be accurately summed up in less than a dozen words

That’s what I’m asking for: characters whose sexuality makes sense and who have different things to offer. I don’t want fewer attractive women in games, I want more of them

 

[oni-link]

Double post

 

[Amir0x]

I can see your point, but we're talking about a character being attractive, not just, sexually attractive, you can't see a character in a novel either, but that doesn't mean a part of your brain won't think "if she were real she'd be cool to hang out with"

Her point is you don't get many characters you can think that about in games, because (like you said before) most characters in games are not well written

I mean the thread is talking specifically about how we need more women with personalities basically, someone you could "fancy", instead of the "sexy' characters we have now. My point was I agree, we really do need better writing for female characters... with the caveat that despite me acknowledging that so many female characters are simply made to be purely sexy as their only dominating feature, I don't find videogame characters attractive. I was simply pointing out the difference in a conclusion whilst also acknowledging the common ground.

I think we need better written characters, but not so that we can actually fancy them. I want that because better written characters can actually make me think and captivate me when they're put into different situations, not so that they can be added to some hypothetical "would I date them?" game.

 

[Giolon]

Well done for reading the title, but most articles can't be accurately summed up in less than a dozen words

She can't have it both ways. Which does she actually want - fewer "sexy" characters or not? And you can sum up an article - that's literally what the title is for. If your title is poor or misleading, that's on the author for being a bad author and/or having a bad editor.

My personal stance is whynotboth.gif. I don't want to see fewer sexy characters but I also want to see more better developed characters where appropriate.

 

[oni-link]

I mean the thread is talking specifically about how we need more women with personalities basically, someone you could "fancy", instead of the "sexy' characters we have now. My point was I agree, we really do need better writing for female characters... with the caveat that despite me acknowledging that so many female characters are simply made to be purely sexy as their only dominating feature, I don't find videogame characters attractive. I was simply pointing out the difference in a conclusion whilst also acknowledging the common ground.

I think we need better written characters, but not so that we can actually fancy them. I want that because better written characters can actually make me think and captivate me when they're put into different situations, not so that they can be added to some hypothetical "would I date them?" game.

The "would I date them" thing just means they have depth and can be seen as more real, and not just something that exists purely to titillate

It's not actually saying "we need more video game characters that are real specifically so I can pretend to date them"

Not every game even calls for characters with depth, or even characters at all, but if you play a game where your character has a girlfriend, and she seems like a real and likeable person, her dying will impact you and maybe even effect your enjoyment of the game more than if she was just a big pair of tits

 

[Suzushiiro]

The "I'm only attracted to real women" people in this thread remind me of this classic:

(video)

(Not actually saying anything is wrong with your brains, just posting it because it's funny and relevant)

(Also if I'm actually the first person to post this then shame on you AnimeGAF)

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

Oh i can fancy Elena; she's fun loving, likes nature, caring, friendly, tall, can protect me and herself from thugs

Thats enough for a first date on Okcupid lol... people complicate things too much.

 

[oni-link]

The "I'm only attracted to real women" people in this thread remind me of this classic:

(video)

(Not actually saying anything is wrong with your brains, just posting it because it's funny and relevant)

(Also if I'm actually the first person to post this then shame on you AnimeGAF)

I don't really understand why so many people are so insecure they have to come out and be all "woah I don't want to have sex with pixels" when finding a character attractive has nothing to do with wanting to have sex with them

I can't actually think of any video game characters I find attractive, but I can think of girls in novels that would be pretty cool to hang out with (if they were real), but that doesn't mean I feel compelled to say "but I don't want to fuck a book"

 

[Rhomega Beta]

First thing I thought of was Liara.

 

[Ralemont]

Bad writing is not going to magically become good writing if you take away sex appeal. Then you will simply have normal-looking boring, flat cliches.

This is not a female character writing problem. It's a writing problem in general.

 

[Puaru1]

Well done for reading the title, but most articles can't be accurately summed up in less than a dozen words

The title is very much asking for a reduction of something. You can argue her article isn't about this, but the title is very clear. Her closing thoughts say she doesn't want "fewer attractive women in games, I want more of them". She's applying her own metric as the single definiton as to what is attractive or not.

She uses examples that don't support her argument by highlighting Tali while looking down on Miranda. Miranda is just as much a fully fleshed out character as any other, but is somehow looked down upon by this author because her outfit is tight (Tali, by the way, also in form fitting clothing). And why does Miranda's genetically engineered good looks need to explain her choice in clothing? Why can't that be what the character chooses to wear?

edit:
Also worth noting is that her examples consist of: a cool lizard guy and 3 blonde pretty boys, one of which doesn't even have a personality.

 

[Amir0x]

The "would I date them" thing just means they have depth and can be seen as more real, and not just something that exists purely to titillate

It's not actually saying "we need more video game characters that are real specifically so I can pretend to date them"

I mean, even in that case, why would peering into the world of a fascinating character really even raise the idea? Why is that the metric? When I find a interesting person, the first thing I think is not whether they are decent enough to be datable. When I experience an interesting character, I have not one thought about how "realistic they are" in the sense that I could see them as dating material. A character who is real enough has dimensionality, and their actions seem plausible to me. I just don't know why the premise of this conversation has to even be founded on such a, I don't know how to phrase it... sort of reductionist way of viewing character value. She has characters she wants to date, so she thinks female characters need to be well written enough so that men can imagine dating them too. It's a sort of example utilized to emphasize the disparity in writing quality of male and female characters, but I just think it's a sort of gross way to frame the argument. That's not how you decide how real a person is, nor how well written a fictional character is.

 

[shoryukens]

Did she mention Aigis?

 

[Shmuely Bully]

What I gather from this is that the author and/or her boyfriend doesn't play many JRPGs or really many story-heavy games in general. There are no shortage of female characters with personality and that includes many that are also designed to be 'sexy' like Chloe Frazier.

Bad writing is not going to magically become good writing if you take away sex appeal. Then you will simply have normal-looking boring, flat cliches.

This is not a female character writing problem. It's a writing problem in general.

And also this. There are a ton of poorly written characters out there.

 

[Laughing Banana]

But if you’re interested in women who offer more than titillation, the search is more trying.

Browse through any game collection and there are going to be a lot of female characters bouncing about the place, with little more to add to the story than a chainmail bikini.

...but then she proceeded to mock her boyfriend's choice in Tali

Anyways, personally there's quite a number of female characters in video games that I "like to fancy": Lucina from Fire Emblem, Garnet from FFIX, Yuna from FFX, Zelda (oh my), Luna from Lunar, etc etc.

I guess she needs to expand her video gaming library.

 

[oni-link]

I mean, even in that case, why would peering into the world of a fascinating character really even raise the idea? Why is that the metric? When I find a interesting person, the first thing I think is not whether they are decent enough to be datable. When I experience an interesting character, I have not one thought about how "realistic they are" in the sense that I could see them as dating material. A character who is real enough has dimensionality, and their actions seem plausible to me. I just don't know why the premise of this conversation has to even be founded on such a, I don't know how to phrase it... sort of reductionist way of viewing character value. She has characters she wants to date, so she thinks female characters need to be well written enough so that men can imagine dating them too. It's a sort of example utilized to emphasize the disparity in writing quality of male and female characters, but I just think it's a sort of gross way to frame the argument. That's not how you decide how real a person is, nor how well written a fictional character is.

To be honest we're all putting far too much thought into what is essentially a fluff piece aimed at looking at gender representation in gaming from a different angle

She is saying she wants women in games to be represented as more than just good looks, that is basically it, I can't really see why anyone would object to that

The dating thing is simply one metric she is opting to use to measure how complex and well written a character is

I don't think its a fantastic article, merely that it's interesting to frame the argument for better representation in a way that is more lighthearted and less likely to upset the kind of Neanderthal who thinks women want to change and take away their games if they even hint at anything resembling direct criticism

It's somewhat disappointing that a lot of the comments in this thread ended up revolving around having sex with video game characters and general stereotypes about how women are always trying to entrap men into pointless arguments

 

[GorillaJu]

There are plenty of sexed up female characters that also have good personalities. Ashe and Fran from FF12 are good examples. Eva in MGS3. Chloe in Uncharted 2 was super hot.

Though there really are some great points in that article that I agree with—but so long as it makes sense in the game's world I don't want sexually alluring women to disappear. I just want them to be characters first, and sexually alluring second.

I would love to see Quiet become a really awesome and likable character just to throw a spanner in the works of this whole discussion and make things more interesting, though I don't have too much faith.

 

[Puaru1]

The dating thing is simply one metric she is opting to use to measure how complex and well written a character is

60% of her examples are of characters who are either poorly written or completely shallow. She simply is either ignorant of great female characters or chooses to ignore them or dismiss them based on appearances.

 

[Yarbskoo]

Anyways, personally there's quite a number of female characters in video games that I "like to fancy": Lucina from Fire Emblem, Garnet from FFIX, Yuna from FFX, Zelda (oh my), Luna from Lunar, etc etc.

The figma can't come soon enough.

Did she mention Aigis?

I do have that one though.

 

[Amir0x]

To be honest we're all putting far too much thought into what is essentially a fluff piece aimed at looking at gender representation in gaming from a different angle

She is saying she wants women in games to be represented as more than just good looks, that is basically it, I can't really see why anyone would object to that

The dating thing is simply one metric she is opting to use to measure how complex and well written a character is

I don't think its a fantastic article, merely that it's interesting to frame the argument for better representation in a way that is more lighthearted and less likely to upset the kind of Neanderthal who thinks women want to change and take away their games if they even hint at anything resembling direct criticism

I agree with her conclusion, which I said. i just don't agree with the what she was using as a metric to reach that conclusion. It's a nuanced view: agree with the overarching point about the need for better written female characters, but a bit turned off that one of the metrics she is using to determine if a character has passed that quality bar is level of dating desirability. Being a fluff piece doesn't mean we can't critique how she goes about reaching her points, right?

 

[bomblord1]

Asked my girlfriend who her favorite male character/male character crash in gaming was this was my answer

Niel from harvest moon a new beginning.

 

[matrixman92]

Life is Strange: the thread. Almost every female is interesting, and I really care about the character. None of them are overly sexualized

 

[oni-link]

I agree with her conclusion, which I said. i just don't agree with the what she was using as a metric to reach that conclusion. It's a nuanced view: agree with the overarching point about the need for better written female characters, but a bit turned off that one of the metrics she is using to determine if a character has passed that quality bar is level of dating desirability. Being a fluff piece doesn't mean we can't critique how she goes about reaching her points, right?

Its an opinion piece, you can critique all you like, but if that is a metric that is important to her that doesn't invalidate it, nor make her wrong

Look at dating sims, they literally live or die on what she is talking about. I've never played a dating sim, but I will assume the more successful/critically acclaimed ones have the better characters, because why would someone play a dating sim if all the characters were dull?

Surely the idea someone can play a narrative heavy game and then picture themselves getting coffee with one of the characters doesn't blow your mind?

There is an entire film trope based around making a character with the express purpose of making guys want to date them, the Manic Pixie Dream Girl

that bubbly, shallow cinematic creature that exists solely in the fevered imaginations of sensitive writer-directors to teach broodingly soulful young men to embrace life and its infinite mysteries and adventures

It's cool if you don't agree with using that as a metric, or if you don't ever feel that way, or if you've never come across a character in any game, novel or film, that you have any attachment to as a character

Your metrics are different, and that's great, in fact I probably see things more like you than her, but that doesn't mean her logic is faulty or she is wrong

 

[Jobbs]

I feel bad for anyone who can't talk with their partner about other people (heck in this case fictional characters) they find attractive.

This .. As long as it's not any of her friends. Best left alone.

 

[Mr_Antimatter]

The idea is sound, though obviously the metrics are going to differ person to person.

One reason I really loved Uncharted is they had a very good balance of sex appeal to, well, fancyness. Chloe and Elena both seemed attractive, approachable, and the sort you could reasonable expect to meet in real life.

Now, you can have your sex bombs and amazon goddesses in a game and still be cool, some folks really dig those. But the games I find most memorable would have more an varied cast, with characters of multiple types and personalities. Harem anime has thrived on that quality for decades now.

 

[Amir0x]

Its an opinion piece, you can critique all you like, but if that is a metric that is important to her that doesn't invalidate it, nor make her wrong

Look at dating sims, they literally live or die on what she is talking about. I've never played a dating sim, but I will assume the more successful/critically acclaimed ones have the better characters, because why would someone play a dating sim if all the characters were dull?

As for dating sims, there's nothing wrong with stating the obvious: many people like to go on that fantasy trip, they don't always get that sort of thing irl (a rogues gallery of potential mates, all of whom exist solely to date you), and sometimes there is a sexual attraction element. You show me a dating sim with genuinely good writing and we'll talk (there's a few OK ones that essentially parody dating sims, but that's not quite the same), but I think the fact dating sims are infamous for how atrociously they are frequently written - despite any popularity - goes to show that "writing" is not actually a major element in that determination. That's why dating sims usually have "one of every type" of dating mate, because they're trying to fill in dotted lines for people's fantasies. "This is the shy girl, this is the assertive girl, this is the sporty girl", etc. There are always going to be opinions on this score, but there are also people who think Transformers is well written. Sometimes you just have to nod and move on.

And there's nothing wrong in wanting to think a character is date-able, but if I'm not talking about right or wrong in that sense. I'm saying it's a pretty lame and in my view dumb and reductive sentiment to use as a metric for how well written a character is as their level of date-ability. And her full article does not actually do itself any favors by expanding greatly beyond that in its list of metrics for well written characters. It makes that point seem outsized. It's actually an extremely shallow point to make as a barometer for that, and in fact I do think she's wrong on that score.

Surely the idea someone can play a narrative heavy game and then picture themselves getting coffee with one of the characters doesn't blow your mind?

It doesn't blow my mind, but if you're going to have a conversation about metrics for determining quality writing and you say "well I always go by how much I want to date them", then for me you're not particularly a serious person and I don't think you have much interesting to say on the subject of quality writing in games or movies or books.

Essentially, the writer of this article has a final point I can agree with, but I'm not sure she actually understands what good writing is because her metric for it is bullshit.

There is an entire film trope based around making a character with the express purpose of making guys want to date them, the Manic Pixie Dream Girl

You realize this phrase was invented as a way of criticizing how shitty this trope is, right? It literally was invented as a critique of director's who essentially create imaginary females that exist not for the quality of their character or nuanced personality but as basically fantasy fuck sticks that could never truly exist in the real world because they essentially are there just to make some male character fulfill his soulful story conclusion.

Quite appropriate for this conversation I'd say.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Well, Ivy's clothed alts in Soul Calibur always looked way more attractive and appealing than... whatever her weird dominatrix 1P costume usually ended up being. Hilde was also one of the best looking characters in that series.

I kind of agree, sexualized characters are lame in a lot of ways.

 

[mStudios]

We need more mature sexy characters, to be honest.

bring dem milfs

 

[oni-link]

You realize this phrase was invented as a way of criticizing how shitty this trope is, right?

I wasn't praising the trope, I was using it to show how making "datable" characters was something that is done in other mediums

 

[Amir0x]

I wasn't praising the trope, I was using it to show how making "datable" characters was something that is done in other mediums

Right, and my point is that the phrase exists partially as a way of showing that it has also traditionally been an abysmal way of determining quality written characters in other mediums as well.

If you are trying to find a decent written character and your argument is that you look about how much you'd want to date them, my argument is it's a shallow, bullshit metric. And I do think that's where she goes wrong.

 

[Zambayoshi]

I like Miku in some of her non-sexy outfits / poses:

And especially:

It's cool that people don't just consider Miku to be a 'sexy idol' but can also imagine her in other roles / scenarios. I guess it's ironic that most of the Miku games are rather shallow in terms of presenting her personality. I understand that she's deliberately designed that way so that people can kind of imagine her however they want. She truly is all things to all people.

 

[hiex_]

1) It's a she, not a he
2) she, doesn't argue for less of anything, she argues for more of something
3) it's hard to make an insightful contribution to a thread when you don't read the OP



A character is a character, whether that is in a film, a book or a game, what have polygons got to do with anything?

Yes, most videogame writing is abysmal, she is arguing for better writing (of women, specifically) but also saying this doesn't mean we should lose really "sexy" characters either

Pardon, *she.
Also, it's right in the title.

Video games need fewer 'sexy' women

She expands on that statement, sure, but the title says what it says.
[EDIT] I see this has already been talked about.

 

[Two Words]

Amen. I'm waiting for someone from witcher 3 to grab my heart, so far the 2 main ladies I've met haven't really done it for me.

Id say both Triss and Yennifer have very well defined personalities.

 

[Shmuely Bully]

She expands on that statement, sure, but the title says what it says.
[EDIT] I see this has already been talked about.

One possibility I haven't seen brought up is that the author is treating 'sexy' and 'attractive' as two separate categories. While that seems to come disturbingly close to trying to police what people find attractive, I've seen far worse so I wouldn't rule it out.

 

[thesolidshark]

I'm starting to wonder if "well-written" is becoming as subjective as "attractive," "sexy," and "fancy" (preferrence for dating, right?)

I understand the premise, and agree for having more fleshed-out characters if possible, but I don't necessarily agree with the reduction she's asking for in the title.

In the spirit of overthinking this topic, who you could fancy in a game is kind of a hard metric to measure anyway. In most games, we're looking at characters dealing with a situation of sorts, some kind of trouble they need to get out of or prevent most of the time, not their everyday lives (hopefully not). We get some of their traits in the course of said situations, but we'd still be guessing what they're like as we'd look at them (if they were real, tangible characters brought to life).

I could think of a few fictional women in gaming that I could fancy, regardless of mine or anyone else's perception of 'sexy.' Honestly walking up to woman from a game, engaging her, asking her out on a date, I feel like I'm taking as much risk with her as if I did the same with a female poster of GAF. I know how she can be in certain regards, but I have to learn how she'd be around me.

Sounds to me like her fella wisely ducked a loaded question. That dress looks great on you and I don't fancy anyone unless they have an amazing personality like you dear. No I wasn't looking at her breasts, merely admiring that lovely brooch she had.

I'm another one of those who this is the first thought to come to mind, and also I might've answered the same as he did (probably lying).

This, the situation in which that question is a trap that leads to an argument is the kind of thing that happens in a sitcom, not real life

Arguably, sitcoms got it from somewhere. And if you haven't seen it or been faced with it in real life, maybe consider yourself lucky.

 

[Tye The Czar]

Exactly the point. I can name a good few off the top of my head:
Bayonetta
Estelle Bright, Trails in the Sky
Matsushima Michiru(a.k.a. the Mitcher), The Fruit of Grisaia
Alys, Phantasy Star IV
Shizune, Rin, & Emi, Katawa Shoujo
Asuka, Grand Theft Auto III
Mona Sax, Max Payne 1 & 2
Saber, Fate/Stay Night
Arcueid, Tsukihime

 

[Handy Fake]

If loving her is wrong, I don't want to be right.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

Glad to see you (and everyone else who agreed with you) think so little of women that you automatically think they're that infantile, petty and jealous.

But somehow I am not remotely surprised at this kind of reaction. Sigh. I can only be glad that my relationship isn't like that, at least.

Well, out of respect to you as a poster, I can only apologize since that's your perspective on it. My only defense is that I admitted to feeling bad that that's how I read the quote in the article

I still disagree that the comment is about derogating the author vs making fun of her boyfriend, but I see your point, and certainly it's a valid complaint.

As for the topic of the article, I've already said my piece.

 

[thesolidshark]

Glad to see you (and everyone else who agreed with you) think so little of women that you automatically think they're that infantile, petty and jealous.

But somehow I am not remotely surprised at this kind of reaction. Sigh. I can only be glad that my relationship isn't like that, at least.

Against my better judgement, I've given this statement some thought, and in defense of myself and others who went there, I think or hope that we don't all think of women as automatically being infantile, petty, or jealous, not all the time anyway. I wouldn't say that women in-general are any or all threee of those things all the time, but they can have their moments of being that way. Anyone, man or woman, can. I certainly don't think every woman would've asked their spouse that question, when years ago I might've assumed that that was the case. It's probably best not to think of any person, gender, or relationship as static or unchanging, being the same way all the time.

 

[KevinCow]

To be honest, I've always kinda fancied Lara Croft. Yeah she's really hot and sex appeal is a big part of her character, but she's not just a busty bimbo. She's also cool and athletic and a brilliant archaeologist. I feel like people write her off as the "bad" kind of female character too easily just because she's attractive, and I don't really think that's fair.

 

[DriftedPlanet]

To the people thinking the guy in OP dodged a loaded question... let me ask you, are there any female characters you'd fancy being in a relationship with? I don't mean a one night stand, I mean someone you could spend a sizable portion of your time with and think you'd enjoy their company... I can't think of too many personally.

I can't really think of many. The majority of game worlds are dangerous and messed up (in a way that seems normal there) when you compare them to reality that I feel like most every character would be extremely damaged by their origin.

That said, final fantasy party members seem to be pretty interesting. The main 3 girls from X-2 all seem interesting enough to crush on.

If there was one actual one it would have to be Not-Ping from Sleeping Dogs. She seemed very fun loving and cool. Emma Stone's character was also cool, but parks are lame compared to hacking security cams. Its a shame that the dating missions didn't continue on in any way after you got each girl's map marker.

Edit: I was glad that they brought Not-Ping back for the Smiley Cat dlc. She seemed like there was a lot more to her that she wasn't telling Wei (and by extension, us) beyond just her name.

 

[Artanisix]

Witcher really brings to life attractive, personable, human characters

 

[Red Hood]

What are you saying? She has great personalitits--I mean personality.

 

[Ezalc]

Samus has always been #1 for me. Completely disregarding the fever dream that is Other M, I always saw her as a tough woman who faces things head on and lets her actions speak for themselves. Yeah she's been sexualized due to the zero suit and whatnot, and her appearance does factor it, but I just really like her more practical demeanor. Might just be me though. I'd also put Bayonetta on the list of women I'd take out on a romantic dinner that could lead to something bigger.