Topher
Gold Member
It shouldn't. My understanding is that VRR is designed so that the display is synced to the frame rate of the GPU. Games don't need patching for that to happen.
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VRR coming to PS5 via firmware update in Spring 2022
- Thread starter kyliethicc
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It shouldn't. My understanding is that VRR is designed so that the display is synced to the frame rate of the GPU. Games don't need patching for that to happen.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Yes, the Xbox also support freesync.
And no, VRR via HDMI does not require any special implementation in games. There's 0 concrete evidence that proves otherwise. This is really a non-issue that everyones been debating since morning.
To be clear, VRR/Freesync/Gsync are not completely different things.
HDMI 2.1 VRR = the implementation of variable refresh rate via the HDMI consortium.
Freesync = the implementation of variable refresh rate via AMD
G-Sync = the implementation of variable refresh rate via NVidia
All the above require specific hardware that supports variable refresh rate. GSync is nvidia proprietary and the most closed out of the 3, and now HDMI 2.1 VRR will become the most open standard as the expectations is that almost every modern TV that comes with HDMI 2.1 will support it.
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Loxus
Member
The PS5 doesn't support VRR via Freesync, only VRR via HDMI.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Yes. That is true.
If Sony had made license agreements with AMD to use their proprietary license, they would have had it too. But they didn't, Microsoft did, hence the Xbox consoles have Freesync support since One X.
And now they've both got VRR support via HDMI 2.1 as well, Sony just have it disabled on a system level for reasons we can only speculate related to their Bravia TV's not being ready.
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omegasc
Member
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Edit: I didn't see that video was put out today. Yeah, this game came in pretty hot. Hopefully this bug is patched soon too.
Maybe they've patched this bug too by now ?
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omegasc
Member
this video was just released. It talks about the fixes like animation, but the framerate issues remain in both PC and Series X due to weird v-sync handling according to them.
This is when a game needs to "support" VRR. My understanding is that games can't turn VRR on or off (since this is at a system level), but they can do things that take advantage of it or not. Kinda like HDR on PS5, but with no equivalent to tone mapping.
edit: system level, not hardware level
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Dust-by-Monday
Member
Correction: PS5 doesn't support any VRR
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Yes, sorry I edited my post. I thought this was referencing an older video.
And your bolded point is spot on. Sony's article is basically PR speak.
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intbal
Member
One S
The update came out at the same time for both, but I feel it's important to be precise on this. No reason little brother should be left out.
ethomaz
Banned
Man.
Just when you guys were engaging and saying Halo Infinite supports VRR a video drops saying it is not working and needs patch lol
I don't know who to believe lolNo, VRR worked and still works to day perfectly for me in Halo Infinite on PC, from day one to this day
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Did you watch the video ?
He clearly says VRR works, but the games Vsync method causes issues with it.
You're still wrong about the game not having VRR or a developer needing to add it in on a game by game basis.
omegasc
Member
When did I ever say that? LOL have you labeled me a "green rat" because I like VRR and see its benefits? I hope not.
I am discussing about the technology, how it works, and my experience with it on PC since I do not own a Series X, and PS5 has yet to support it. Some people prefer to drown threads in console wars though.
DF's video timing was great to reinforce what I talked about before, I think.
I'm a Sony fan from the PS1 era and i want VRR. If a game is not 60fps locked then I will use it on with my Sony TV X900h that have VRR after the dic update. I will always prefer 60fps locked for sure. Sony needs to add VRR support is nice to have options. Hell even 1440p res too why not? I prefer 1440p 60fps locked than higher res and variable FPS.
yamaci17
Member
maybe there's something wrong on his PC configuration, no idea. this is PC btw, not console.
and im on Nvidia land, not AMD. this is a non certified freesync monitor but the VRR is working seamlessly on my config
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RoadHazard
Gold Member
But surely the game must have separate "modes" for VRR on/off? So the framerate is capped in one mode but not the other, etc. Or is that automatically disabled on system level if VRR is enabled?
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Yeah there's no separate modes, if the game detects you have a 120hz display capable of VRR, it unlocks the frame rate.
No toggle on/off.
omegasc
Member
it probably just software locked the framerate. Disabling VRR would require another handshake from the devices, making the screen flicker and display notifications, like turning on HDR. Unless it does that? Can someone test it?
RoadHazard
Gold Member
"If the game detects" would indicate that the game actually has to support it.
omegasc
Member
it needs to check if the console has VRR+120hz enabled to unlock the framerate.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Eh, I don't think that's the right way of describing it.
If appropriate hardware (i-e a VRR display and the console setting set to On) is detected, it just unlocks the frame rate. It's just the game running a check.
A Plague Tale also checks if the system has 120hz enabled, if yes then it just unlocks the frame cap, that game doesn't even need VRR to do that.
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Chris_Rivera
Member
Well, it’s true that the Series version of Halo looks like shit regardless of VRR showing as active on your TV.
Now the PC version could be different, but only speaking from personal experience it does work. Although I’ll say it did take some playing around with Vsync and resolution settings.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
So the game has to support it. If not, how could it know to run that check? I.e. it's not automatic on system level.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
The game always "supported" VRR as that's a system level feature, the developers only unlocked the 60hz cap via the patch, that's it.
Not sure what we're getting at here lol. Same as plague tale, the developers added a similar unlock frame rate if a 120 hertz display is detected on a system level. The game didn't patch in 120hz support, just disengaged the 60hz lock.
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DJ12
Member
Clues in the name, its not called freesync for nothing.
RoadHazard
Gold Member
Yeah, but that cap is still there if your TV doesn't support VRR right? Meaning the game does have to explicitly add support for "VRR mode". That's what I'm getting at.
The original question was really if existing PS5 games will automatically work with VRR once that arrives, and I think they won't. Well, maybe for framerates below the cap they will, which I guess is also the most important.
omegasc
Member
In Dying Light's case it is more about supporting 120hz by taking advantage of VRR, rather than supporting VRR itself?
Regarding PS5, I hope it is the same as Xbox... if a game has issues, then it is due to some bug making life hard for the VRR implementation. PS5 games usually have stable frame rates, but some still have small drops. I have no reason to believe VRR would not catch that.
BC though.... it's Sony. Who knows? lol
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Yes the cap is there, VRR doesn't unlock frame rates beyond 60 unless a developer wants it to. You're confusing two completely different things as the same here.
Dying Light 2 has VRR support because the console has it, if it drops from 60 to whatever the device's lower VRR bound is, VRR will match the refresh rate to mitigate judder, stutter etc. But DL2 just happens to be optimized so well it doesn't drop from 60. VRR is not a universal frame rate unlocker.
Existing PS5 games will absolutely work with VRR, unless there are specific cases where a developer chooses to unlock the frame rate to go higher than 60.
The only thing that will prevent existing PS5 games from using VRR out of the box is if Sony puts some weird limitations on it arbitrarily.
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kyliethicc
Member
Vincent Teoh was told by Sony that VRR will be added to the PS5 alongside the release of their new 2022 TVs this spring.
Dust-by-Monday
Member
Typically, if a game is vsynced, it's either 60Hz or 120Hz on console so the max frame rate would either by 60fps or 120fps because vsync prevents it from going higher. This may seem like a lock, but it's really just a limitation of vsync, however, VRR will kick in only when the frame rate dips below 60fps or 120fps respectively.
Nobody just locks the frame rate, it's usually vsync 60fps that create the lock or double-vsync for 30fps (which displays each frame twice making it essentially 60Hz/fps, but obviously if each frame plays twice, it's going to read as 30fps)
Venuspower
Member
To be fair here, Vincent has almost certainly talked to someone from in Sony's TV department. Not with people from the Playstation department. Now it is the case at Sony that one hand does not know what the other is doing. I'm not trolling here either. Unfortunately, this is a fact for which Sony is well known in the industry and for which examples have been provided time and again.
My personal highlight is still when Sony first announced Dolby Vision support for their TVs. That was a few years ago. At the same event, Sony presented its very first UHD player...which, of course, did not support Dolby Vision. You just have to imagine that.They have a stand at a trade fair and advertise their TVs with Dolby Vision. And the UHD player which is shown at the same stage does not have it. And there are many other examples.
To come back to Vincent's statement. As long as he has not spoken to Mark Cerny himself or any other high level system developer take it with 10 huge grains of salt.
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omegasc
Member
which is why I think most PS5 games will work with no issues, patches only needed to unlock framerates.
It would be great if other games do the same as Dying Light 2, and unlock the 60 ceiling when VRR+120hz is supported. I don't believe there are many 30fps capped games on the new gen right?
Dust-by-Monday
Member
VRR should only be used to clean up slight performance issues. I don't think devs should start just uncapping frame rates.
Right now, a game that is capped at 60fps with vsync will stutter if it even drops 1 single frame... with VRR, that dropped frame will go by unnoticed because there will be no stutter or judder to be seen.
kyliethicc
Member
Nah. They've already rolled out multiple features for Sony TVs and the PS5 working better together. Collabs are just fine. Plenty of PS5 + Sony TV ads too.
Hezekiah
Banned
Sony was notorious for that in the past. Obviously there was an initiative to make them more unified, but to what extent that is happening I don't know.
Venuspower
Member
Which feature are you talking about? The automatic HDR setting for the calibration setting where the result is just bad compared to setting it up manually? This is just another example of how laughably bad the cooperation between the different divisions is.
Even with the old consoles there were joint marketing campaigns. Nevertheless, the cooperation within the company was a joke.
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twilo99
Member
If they could simply switch it on it wouldn't take 2 years..
omegasc
Member
I see it also as a way to provide another option like we currently have performance/graphics, for games that could go higher than 60.
MrFunSocks
Banned
ethomas is the biggest and most blatantly obvious warrior on this site, spreads intentional lies and misinformation in virtually every single post, yet never faces any mod action for some bizarre reason.
I reposted a meme and got a month ban though with a permanent ban warning now.
GodLordPaddock
Banned
twilo99
Member
I agree, but at this point very few explanations are actually viable, and for whatever reason Sony won't even tell us what the problem is, or anything at all.
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I don't think they're ever gonna come out and say it officially, but it's GOTTA BE because of their Bravia lineups and its VRR delays. Probably a company 'honor' thing that how can we enable a feature if our own TV's don't support it.
01011001
Banned
so I re-downloaded both the game and the demo (didn't have either installed still... yay) and tried my best to show that the demo has no VRR support.
it's not easy playing with 1 hand and holding the phone with the other while also trying to clearly show the refresh rate of my TV lol
and yeah, that refresh display goes away after a few seconds, so I have to press the button on the remote as well every time it goes away to bring it back up
all in all a tedious endeavor, but that should seal the deal hopefully!? no VRR in the RE8 Demo
I made sure to clearly show that VRR is enabled and that I play in RT mode for the demo. the full version didn't need that as you can clearly see the refresh change while she attacks me, so clearly showing VRR is working in the final game
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
I can barely make anything out in your video but if you think it's not working as expected, sure I'll believe you.
But thankfully like the very very rare issues like Aragami 2, it seems to be fixed by launch.
But thankfully like the very very rare issues like Aragami 2, it seems to be fixed by launch.
01011001
Banned
well you can see that she is attacking me in both instances, which spawns a shitload of particle effects that tank the performance. and in the full game my TV clearly shows it is changing refresh rapidly and in the demo it is nailed to 59hz (yeah that refresh screen rounds down from 59.997 to 59 not up to 60)
I can't show it more clearly without setting up a tripod and filming for 10 minutes.
it is clearly not working, not a single dropped frame while she attacks me according to the refresh display you can clearly see on the top right
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
My disply doesn't have a counter but i'll try to record from both retail and final on it using my phone in the morning and post here for comparison.
But again, the demo was a WIP build so it could be any number of issues. I'll post mine tomorrow.
But again, the demo was a WIP build so it could be any number of issues. I'll post mine tomorrow.
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01011001
Banned
the point is still that the VRR is not working. clearly showing it is not something EVERY app/game on the system supports. I can also show you Watch_Dogs working with VRR in 120hz but not at 60hz... but I would have to see if I still have it installed (I should still have it on there I think)
clearly demonstrating VRR is not a given and has to actively be supported by the developers. doesn't matter why it's not working, in the end it's the developers fault it doesn't work. be it that they actively have to check something on their end to flag VRR support or if they have to make sure other technical issues don't interfere with it
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Not necessarily, it could just be a case like Halo Infinite, VRR works but the games V-sync conflicts with it.
There's no examples or articles on any tech website I can find that validate that VRR requires specific game implementation.
VRR on Xbox works on BC Xbox 1, 360 and XB One games that support 60hz/fps output.
And if you wanna check PC, Freesync/GSync works on games from a decade or two ago without needing anything extra.
If it needed active developer input VRR wouldn't work on 99% of games, which clearly isn't the case.
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01011001
Banned
that does not explain why my TV is showing a flat 59.997hz output with zero fluctuation.
like I said, if a game drops below 48hz my TV isn't simply showing a flat 59hz. it will flicker between 60 and 48 rapidly as the frametime spikes up and down.
so if that demo had a fucked up vsync that somehow makes the game stutter and not work properly, my TV would still show me at the very least that the frametime spiked like crazy.
Halo Infinite for example clearly shows that the refresh gets adjusted, but it simply looks stuttery. my refresh display will still show the console trying to adjust. but as you can see in the video I posted, in the case of the RE8 demo, zero adjustments are happening.
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