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[Darth_Ghandi]

Toxic masculinity literally doesn’t exist. Its a scapegoat/boogeyman to demonize an entire sex.

I know a lot of dudes don’t like the term but imo it does exist.
Just cause you don’t like something doesn’t mean it is real.

So let’s take this thread about will.
He smacked another man then got up on stage talking about he must protect and that love makes you do crazy shit.

 

[Dr. Claus]

I know a lot of dudes don’t like the term but imo it does exist.
Just cause you don’t like something doesn’t mean it is real.

It doesn’t. Just because you keep saying it does, does not make it so. It is as much a thing as “white priviledge”, aka, a load of hogwash used to demonize immutable characteristics.

So let’s take this thread about will.
He smacked another man then got up on stage talking about he must protect and that love makes you do crazy shit.

Will is an asshole. That is all. Nothing about it is “toxic masculinity”. Nothing about his actions is masculine or based around masculinity.

Seek help If you genuinely believe that this is about “Toxic masculinity”. Maybe get off the internet for a few years and go back to school.

 

[Darth_Ghandi]

It doesn’t. Just because you keep saying it does, does not make it so. It is as much a thing as “white priviledge”, aka, a load of hogwash used to demonize immutable characteristics.

Will is an asshole. That is all. Nothing about it is “toxic masculinity”. Nothing about his actions is masculine or based around masculinity.

Seek help If you genuinely believe that this is about “Toxic masculinity”. Maybe get off the internet for a few years and go back to school.

It’s a term that describes bad traits that limit men in their expression. Expressions that pressure men to behav in certain ways that hurt themselves and people around them. Very simple.

Case in point.
You are at a award ceremony, an award that could be one of the highlights of your entire career.
But shit goes to shit cause a comedian makes fun of your wife.
You now feel the pressure to defend her thus shifting focus from what should be you night.
You win your award and talk about being a vessel of god and protecting others, also saying love will make you do crazy stuff.

Now if you want to argue those things are immutable you can go off but plenty of people (dudes in this thread) would
Never act like that. So it isn’t immutable.

Now you can call people names and tell them to go to school (imagine thinking that the idea of toxic masculinity wouldn’t come up in education is baffling btw) but it doesn’t really say much to your point.

 

[Jsisto]

It's just a phrase used to describe specific behaviors. We can argue whether it's use is justified or overused in many cases, but I feel it's a bit of a reach to just dismiss it outright. We all agree I'm sure those behaviors do exist. It's just an argument about language at that point.

 

[EviLore]

There are negative attributes to both masculinity and femininity. They’re also highly contextual, e.g. stubborn defiance is a positive quality when a dictator needs overthrowing but a negative quality when you refuse to go to the doctor for your colonoscopy. We are merely human at the end of the day.

 

[Dr. Claus]

It’s a term that describes bad traits that limit men in their expression. Expressions that pressure men to behav in certain ways that hurt themselves and people around them. Very simple.

That isn’t toxic masculinity. That is just being a stubborn dumbass. It is not limited to men. Its a universal trait for all people.

Case in point.
You are at a award ceremony, an award that could be one of the highlights of your entire career.
But shit goes to shit cause a comedian makes fun of your wife.
You now feel the pressure to defend her thus shifting focus from what should be you night.
You win your award and talk about being a vessel of god and protecting others, also saying love will make you do crazy stuff.

Again, that’s just being an asshole.

Now if you want to argue those things are immutable you can go off but plenty of people (dudes in this thread) would
Never act like that. So it isn’t immutable.

Now you can call people names and tell them to go to school (imagine thinking that the idea of toxic masculinity wouldn’t come up in education is baffling btw) but it doesn’t really say much to your point.

Any education worth its salt wouldn’t bring up nonsensical idiocy such as “Toxic masculinity”. I once again suggest you seek help and go back and re-educate yourself.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

There are negative attributes to both masculinity and femininity. They’re also highly contextual, e.g. stubborn defiance is a positive quality when a dictator needs overthrowing but a negative quality when you refuse to go to the doctor for your colonoscopy. We are merely human at the end of the day.

So true.

Incident: 53 year old man walks 40 ft away towards a 57 year old comedian host at an awards gala and slaps him hard

Cause 1: Comedian host telling jokes all night at the show, and aimed one at a guest

Cause 2: Shady man grabs your kid while you aren't looking

Hmmmm.... I wonder which cause is more acceptable, and which one looks infantile.

 

[Darth_Ghandi]

That isn’t toxic masculinity. That is just being a stubborn dumbass. It is not limited to men. Its a universal trait for all people.

Again, that’s just being an asshole.


Any education worth its salt wouldn’t bring up nonsensical idiocy such as “Toxic masculinity”. I once again suggest you seek help and go back and re-educate yourself.

Again, you aren’t saying much except your own ignorance on the matter tbh.
Like Evilore said both men and women have traits and expectations that can be described as bad and toxic.
Just cause someone used it in a manner that made you mad doesn’t mean shit.

 

[Dr. Claus]

Again, you aren’t saying much except your own ignorance on the matter tbh.
Like Evilore said both men and women have traits and expectations that can be described as bad and toxic.
Just cause someone used it in a manner that made you mad doesn’t mean shit.

You keep telling yourself that, hon.

 

[12Goblins]

Toxic masculinity literally doesn’t exist. Its a scapegoat/boogeyman to demonize an entire sex.

or you don't understand what it means

there is toxic masculinity, just like there is toxic femininity - one just happens to be in the spotlight rn

 

[Dr. Claus]

or you don't understand what it means

there is toxic masculinity, just like there is toxic femininity - one just happens to be in the spotlight rn

You keep telling yourself that, hon.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I know a lot of dudes don’t like the term but imo it does exist.
Just cause you don’t like something doesn’t mean it is real.

So let’s take this thread about will.
He smacked another man then got up on stage talking about he must protect and that love makes you do crazy shit.

Masculinity punches.
Femininity slaps, cries, and talks about being a vessel of love in a 15 minute window.

 

[12Goblins]

You keep telling yourself that, hon.

you don't think there is trans toxicity either?

 

[12Goblins]

laughing emojis is not a proper response my dude. it's ok to acknowledge that there are toxic aspects of male culture, just like there are toxic aspects of female culture (ie in this case what I believe Jada to be doing; being manipulative, promoting aggression and harmful behavior)

you interpreting that as some sort of attack on an entire gender is on you

 

[Darth_Ghandi]

Masculinity punches.
Femininity slaps, cries, and talks about being a vessel of love in a 15 minute window.

Ptff… masculinity kicks!!!
Also talks about being a defender of people.

 

[Darth_Ghandi]

laughing emojis is not a proper response my dude. it's ok to acknowledge that there are toxic aspects of male culture, just like there are toxic aspects of female culture (ie in this case what I believe Jada to be doing; being manipulative, promoting aggression and harmful behavior)

you interpreting that as some sort of attack on an entire gender is on you

Dudes be damaged by something they saw once online with another damaged dude.
These ideas aren’t really that controversial unless you are very closed of and not interested in learning.
I mean it is funny how someone talks with so little knowledge saying others should be educated.

 

[BigBooper]

Those titles exist to allow arguments for excuses for bad behavior or careers for social activists. "He wasn't entirely responsible for his actions because of the toxic masculinity in the culture surrounding him."

How about we just focus on measurable things that everyone knows like violence, lying, infidelity, jokes, and simps?

 

[Darth_Ghandi]

Those titles exist to allow arguments for excuses for bad behavior or careers for social activists. "He wasn't entirely responsible for his actions because of the toxic masculinity in the culture surrounding him."

How about we just focus on measurable things that everyone knows like violence, lying, infidelity, jokes, and simps?

I’ve never seen anyone use the fact that genders have bad traits as an excuse by activists…
Speaking of measurable thing’s perhaps you’d give an example?

 

[BigBooper]

I’ve never seen anyone use the fact that genders have bad traits as an excuse by activists…
Speaking of measurable thing’s perhaps you’d give an example?

Sure, violence, lying, infidelity, jokes I'll grant could be vague, and simps.

If you were talking about finding you an example of an activist using bad traits of genders as an excuse, no I won't be doing that.

 

[Darth_Ghandi]

Sure, violence, lying, infidelity, jokes I'll grant could be vague, and simps.

If you were talking about finding you an example of an activist using bad traits of genders as an excuse, no I won't be doing that.

I was talking about examples of activists.
Thanks for your clarification.

 

[Azurro]

I’ve never seen anyone use the fact that genders have bad traits as an excuse by activists…
Speaking of measurable thing’s perhaps you’d give an example?

The term "toxic masculinity", as with other terms that activists have modified or made up for their narratives, is only a term made up to blame a gender and set them up as enemies to their cause. Are there aspects to both masculinity and femininity that are "toxic"? Yes, of course. Are they exclusive to their genres? Not in the least. A woman can be violent, while a man can be socially manipulative. Does it make sense to blame men exclusively for it? God no, it's just an excuse to attack men for it and remove avenues for pushback against the narrative.

 

[strange headache]

There is no male or female toxicity, only toxic behavior. The notion of "toxic femininity or masculinity" would imply that there is something inherently wrong with a particular trait, when in reality they are highly contextual. Hence why such notions lead to bad thinking and oftentimes discriminatory views.

No particular trait is exclusive to a gender. Being protective is a virtue, but being overprotective is a vice. As such deregulated behavior is usually the result of an excess or severe lack of something.

There was nothing particular "masculine" about Will Smiths behavior and considering his relationship status as well as his personal problems, being a guy seems to be the least of his worries.

 

[Darth_Ghandi]

The term "toxic masculinity", as with other terms that activists have modified or made up for their narratives, is only a term made up to blame a gender and set them up as enemies to their cause. Are there aspects to both masculinity and femininity that are "toxic"? Yes, of course. Are they exclusive to their genres? Not in the least. A woman can be violent, while a man can be socially manipulative. Does it make sense to blame men exclusively for it? God no, it's just an excuse to attack men for it and remove avenues for pushback against the narrative.

Nothing about talking about norms and roles being toxic is pointing to an entire gender as a whole (meaning that all of the gender has that trait).
Again we are pointing to roles and expectations that men are assumed to partake in.
It is to point how some traits are prevalent amount certain demographics, and it doesn’t exclude others from having those traits too.

 

[Azurro]

Nothing about talking about norms and roles being toxic is pointing to an entire gender as a whole (meaning that all of the gender has that trait).
Again we are pointing to roles and expectations that men are assumed to partake in.
It is to point how some traits are prevalent amount certain demographics, and it doesn’t exclude others from having those traits too.

That is being disingenuous at best. If there is a woman that exhibits behaviours that are found in "toxic masculinity", does it get called out? No, of course not, because it's a term designed only to belittle masculinity and feminize men (which is ironic given that those feminine men the activist have created are absolutely not attractive to them). It's the same reason why "racism" has been retconned to only be involved if a white person partakes in it.

Progressive terms and ideologies are what's toxic, not entire genres and races. Individuality is nonexistent to you.

EDIT: To make it clearer, using your definition, we should create a term called "toxic blackness" to describe black people that steal, murder, don't finish school and don't parent their children. Should we do that?

 

[Darth_Ghandi]

That is being disingenuous at best. If there is a woman that exhibits behaviours that are found in "toxic masculinity", does it get called out? No, of course not, because it's a term designed only to belittle masculinity and feminize men (which is ironic given that those feminine men the activist have created are absolutely not attractive to them). It's the same reason why "racism" has been retconned to only be involved if a white person partakes in it.

Progressive terms and ideologies are what's toxic, not entire genres and races. Individuality is nonexistent to you.

Nothing disingenuous about it.
Women who deviate from traditional ways of gender are 100% shat on, they are called bossy, bitchy etc. saying they aren’t hurt by displaying male traits is disingenuous tho.
The term must like just like toxic femininity is just that. A term.
That you are adding more cause you are triggered doesn’t mean jack.

I think people not fully understanding terms and ideas is toxic. Regressives capitalize on that and bastardize ideas that are by them selves fine.
Acting like we as individuals don’t lend to and build expectations in society is naive.

 

[Azurro]

Nothing disingenuous about it.
Women who deviate from traditional ways of gender are 100% shat on, they are called bossy, bitchy etc. saying they aren’t hurt by displaying male traits is disingenuous tho.
The term must like just like toxic femininity is just that. A term.
That you are adding more cause you are triggered doesn’t mean jack.

I think people not fully understanding terms and ideas is toxic. Regressives capitalize on that and bastardize ideas that are by them selves fine.
Acting like we as individuals don’t lend to and build expectations in society is naive.

Then according to you, toxic blackness should be a term that should exist, revealing how progressives are incredibly racist and sexist.

 

[Darth_Ghandi]

Then according to you, toxic blackness should be a term that should exist, revealing how progressives are incredibly racist and sexist.

Tbh I have no idea, me not being black makes me unable to make comments on that.
Or do you have some issue you’d like to talk about?

 

[12Goblins]

Then according to you, toxic blackness should be a term that should exist, revealing how progressives are incredibly racist and sexist.

Indeed, toxic blackness does exist - ie stigmatization of mental health, rampant homophobia, self-discrimination etc

 

[John Bilbo]

Tbh I have no idea, me not being black makes me unable to make comments on that.
Or do you have some issue you’d like to talk about?

Do you have a principle to only talk about things you yourself are or does that apply only on this situation?

Edit: Added the word "only"

 

[Darth_Ghandi]

Do you have a principle to only talk about things you yourself are or does that apply only on this situation?

Edit: Added the word "only"

More in regard that I’m from the EU and I can’t answer that question. 12Goblin did give some notes on the subject and for what it is worth it tracks with POC communities I grew up in.

 

[Azurro]

Tbh I have no idea, me not being black makes me unable to make comments on that.
Or do you have some issue you’d like to talk about?

This is a cop out, why do you have to be of a certain demographic to have opinions? Isn't that called gatekeeping? Here, what you are doing, and what progressives love to do to set up artificial rivalries, is attributing certain elements of culture to a certain demographic/race, rather than taking that undesired element of culture and targeting against it.

Because again, progressives don't give a single iota about fairness, science or objectivity. It's all about power, that's why I despise them.

 

[DeafTourette]

"The concept of toxic masculinity is used in academic and media discussions of masculinity to refer to certain cultural norms that are associated with harm to society and men themselves

Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due in part to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. The socialization of boys in patriarchal societies often normalizes violence, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" about bullying and aggression.

Self-reliance and emotional repression are correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression, increased stress, and substance use disorders. Toxic masculine traits are characteristic of the unspoken code of behavior among men in prisons, where they exist in part as a response to the harsh conditions of prison life.

Other traditionally masculine traits such as devotion to work, pride in excelling at sports, and providing for one's family, are not considered to be "toxic". The concept was originally used by authors associated with the mythopoetic men's movement, such as Shepherd Bliss. These authors contrasted stereotypical notions of masculinity with a "real" or "deep" masculinity, which they said men had lost touch with in modern society. Critics of the term toxic masculinity argue that it incorrectly implies that gender-related issues are caused by inherent male traits.[1]

The concept of toxic masculinity, or certain formulations of it, has been criticized by some conservatives as an undue condemnation of traditional masculinity, and by some feminists as an essentialist concept that ignores the role of choice and context in causing harmful behaviors and attitudes related to masculinity."

EDIT: So, it wasn't created by "activists" or women or whatever else was said. Those are y'all assumptions based on your own biases.

What I quoted here is what toxic masculinity is... Y'all would have known that if you bothered to look it up. Also, it was a phrase coined by a male author in a MEN'S MOVEMENT!

 

[John Bilbo]

More in regard that I’m from the EU and I can’t answer that question. 12Goblin did give some notes on the subject and for what it is worth it tracks with POC communities I grew up in.

Ok. I don't understand your logic, but that's fine. Have an happy easter Darth_Ghandi!

 

[Azurro]

Please stop saying what I’m doing and what ever else.
I’m not read on the subject and don’t want to talk out my ass. 12Goblins gave you a few pointers if you are interested tho.
I think we should examine structures and attitudes in various demographics especially if those are harmful.
That this is so infuriating to some is amusing to no end for me tbh.

Indeed the “progressives” are the ones who deny climate change, elections and Jewish space lasers.

I'm simply pointing out what you are doing by expressing those ideas. Again, your worldview is simply wrong, as you are seeing the world as a struggle for power of demographics separated by race, sex and gender identity. It's dumb because it's so reductive. You mention that it is amusing to you, because truth is of paramount importance and your ideology has no concept of it, given how there is no concept of consistency in it, just convenient times to insert buzzwords.

I like that final sentence, btw, it reveals how as a progressive, you believe that you are an authority on morality and that whoever doesn't agree with it, must be a slack jawed mongrel.

 

[John Bilbo]

"The concept of toxic masculinity is used in academic and media discussions of masculinity to refer to certain cultural norms that are associated with harm to society and men themselves

Traditional stereotypes of men as socially dominant, along with related traits such as misogyny and homophobia, can be considered "toxic" due in part to their promotion of violence, including sexual assault and domestic violence. The socialization of boys in patriarchal societies often normalizes violence, such as in the saying "boys will be boys" about bullying and aggression.

Self-reliance and emotional repression are correlated with increased psychological problems in men such as depression, increased stress, and substance use disorders. Toxic masculine traits are characteristic of the unspoken code of behavior among men in prisons, where they exist in part as a response to the harsh conditions of prison life.

Other traditionally masculine traits such as devotion to work, pride in excelling at sports, and providing for one's family, are not considered to be "toxic". The concept was originally used by authors associated with the mythopoetic men's movement, such as Shepherd Bliss. These authors contrasted stereotypical notions of masculinity with a "real" or "deep" masculinity, which they said men had lost touch with in modern society. Critics of the term toxic masculinity argue that it incorrectly implies that gender-related issues are caused by inherent male traits.[1]

The concept of toxic masculinity, or certain formulations of it, has been criticized by some conservatives as an undue condemnation of traditional masculinity, and by some feminists as an essentialist concept that ignores the role of choice and context in causing harmful behaviors and attitudes related to masculinity."

EDIT: So, it wasn't created by "activists" or women or whatever else was said. Those are y'all assumptions based on your own biases.

What I quoted here is what toxic masculinity is... Y'all would have known that if you bothered to look it up. Also, it was a phrase coined by a male author in a MEN'S MOVEMENT!

The argument must stand on it's own no matter the sex of the person. The sex of the person is irrelevant when discussing what is true.

I don't agree with the term toxic masculinity. I think it is sexist. I think it is meant to shame men for their sex and biology.

 

[Azurro]

DeafTourette the paper would have to be read and examined. Just because a man wrote it, doesn't mean that first, that the author is right, and second, that the original meaning hasn't been altered, and it's not how it is applied anyway. We all know progressive universities publish all sorts of bs everyday of every month.

 

[DeafTourette]

The argument must stand on it's own no matter the sex of the person. The sex of the person is irrelevant when discussing what is true.

I don't agree with the term toxic masculinity. I think it is sexist. I think it is meant to shame men for their sex and biology.

DeafTourette the paper would have to be read and examined. Just because a man wrote it, doesn't mean that first, that the author is right, and second, that the original meaning hasn't been altered, and it's not how it is applied anyway. We all know progressive universities publish all sorts of bs everyday of every month.

Again... When presented with a logical explanation and proof that it wasn't some activist agenda (the term created in the Men's Movement BY men), you default on your own biases and political leanings.

I can admit when 45 did something good unlike some D's in Congress... And when 44 did something I HATED... but when presented with a truth, I didn't double down and pretend I didn't read or hear what was being said and done.

I know I'm biased towards certain things and against other things... But when presented with the truth that can't be "debunked" because the facts don't line up with what I ASSUMED... I change my stance and accept it.

And plenty of conservative institutions put out brain rot, too.

 

[Darth_Ghandi]

I'm simply pointing out what you are doing by expressing those ideas. Again, your worldview is simply wrong, as you are seeing the world as a struggle for power of demographics separated by race, sex and gender identity. It's dumb because it's so reductive. You mention that it is amusing to you, because truth is of paramount importance and your ideology has no concept of it, given how there is no concept of consistency in it, just convenient times to insert buzzwords.

I like that final sentence, btw, it reveals how as a progressive, you believe that you are an authority on morality and that whoever doesn't agree with it, must be a slack jawed mongrel.

You first few lines just say I’m wrong cause______? Nothing substantial.
We even have a poster trying to give the origin story of the term.
Why can’t you engage with our points?

I see the world through a intersectional lens. A lens that does take into account more things the race, sex and gender too.

Again speaking of truth as I understand that this forum needed to NUKE a whole portion of it cause a lot of people where broken by reality. And I doubt it was people like me who made it so.
Again your prescribing values to me you know nothing about. I have expressed much the same sentiment as our forum owner and yet you don’t say shit to him…

I think people who can’t wrap their heads around concepts and are lead around by their nose by regressive and tbh cash chasing media aren’t slack jawed, perhaps miss informed.
I mean we have think tanks funded by the richest of the rich that give talking points so we are more angry over MMS not being fuckable and what is between Mr potatoheads feet!
It all just feels like people don’t really know what we mean with terms like toxic masculinity. If you took some time and understood what people say (not cherrry picked idiots online or irl) I honestly think we’d agree on a fuckton.

 

[John Bilbo]

Again... When presented with a logical explanation and proof that it wasn't some activist agenda (the term created in the Men's Movement BY men), you default on your own biases and political leanings.

I can admit when 45 did something good unlike some D's in Congress... And when 44 did something I HATED... but when presented with a truth, I didn't double down and pretend I didn't read or hear what was being said and done.

I know I'm biased towards certain things and against other things... But when presented with the truth that can't be "debunked" because the facts don't line up with what I ASSUMED... I change my stance and accept it.

And plenty of conservative institutions put out brain rot, too.

I don't understand. Can you explain what is my bias I'm defaulting on? What is my political leaning in this case?

I'm not a part of a men's movement by men or women.

 

[12Goblins]

I don't agree with the term toxic masculinity. I think it is sexist. I think it is meant to shame men for their sex and biology.

unfortunately some people (mis)use it that way, just like "white privilege" - these are just sociological terms to explain certain phenomenas, and using them against people is just misusing language

 

[Azurro]

Again... When presented with a logical explanation and proof that it wasn't some activist agenda (the term created in the Men's Movement BY men), you default on your own biases and political leanings.

I can admit when 45 did something good unlike some D's in Congress... And when 44 did something I HATED... but when presented with a truth, I didn't double down and pretend I didn't read or hear what was being said and done.

I know I'm biased towards certain things and against other things... But when presented with the truth that can't be "debunked" because the facts don't line up with what I ASSUMED... I change my stance and accept it.

And plenty of conservative institutions put out brain rot, too.

What are you talking about? What logical explanation am I denying? I didn't make a statement on the origins of the term, I only made a statement on its use, which hasn't been misproven because the term is used as an attack on masculinity everywhere it is applied. Another thing is that we all know you are a huge advocate for identity politics and are about as woke as they come, you are basically a walking jezebel article, you really shouldn't flatter yourself with an illusion of objectivity.

Second of all, I'm not american, who is 44? You mean Trump? Why bring him up? Why is it relevant to this conversation?

 

[Darth_Ghandi]

What are you talking about? What logical explanation am I denying? I didn't make a statement on the origins of the term, I only made a statement on its use, which hasn't been misproven because the term is used as an attack on masculinity everywhere it is applied. Another thing is that we all know you are a huge advocate for identity politics and are about as woke as they come, you are basically a walking jezebel article, you really shouldn't flatter yourself with an illusion of objectivity.

Second of all, I'm not american, who is 44? You mean Trump? Why bring him up? Why is it relevant to this conversation?

It’s an attack on toxic traits within masculinity, not masculinity as a whole.

Also I love how you just scream woke at anyone who doesn’t subscribe to your way of thinking.

 

[John Bilbo]

unfortunately some people (mis)use it that way, just like "white privilege" - these are just sociological terms to explain certain phenomenas, and using them against people is just misusing language

That can be the case, but I'm not convinced that it is a misuse. I think that is the true intention behind those terms and their use.

I don't believe in white privilege either. I don't think there are any inherit privileges that come with a person's skin colour. I think it is racist to attribute privileges to a person's colour of skin, no matter the skin colour.

That said there can be a case made for life being easier when belonging to a majority group of some kind. That is not inherit to a person's skin colour though, but the surrounding environment and geographical location.

 

[InfiniteCombo]

What are you talking about? What logical explanation am I denying? I didn't make a statement on the origins of the term, I only made a statement on its use, which hasn't been misproven because the term is used as an attack on masculinity everywhere it is applied. Another thing is that we all know you are a huge advocate for identity politics and are about as woke as they come, you are basically a walking jezebel article, you really shouldn't flatter yourself with an illusion of objectivity.

Second of all, I'm not american, who is 44? You mean Trump? Why bring him up? Why is it relevant to this conversation?

44 is Obama, 45 is Trump.

I'm American and I agree with a lot of what you're saying. Not sure I'm in the mood to engage with the usual suspects though because I'm already acquainted with their (demonstrably weak and sometimes outright false) arguments.

 

[Dr. Claus]

44 is Obama, 45 is Trump.

I'm American and I agree with a lot of what you're saying. Not sure I'm in the mood to engage with the usual suspects though because I'm already acquainted with their (demonstrably weak and sometimes outright false) arguments.

There is no point. They rely on ideology and emotions rather than empirical evidence. Best to just laugh at them and move on.

 

[///PATRIOT]

Again... When presented with a logical explanation and proof that it wasn't some activist agenda (the term created in the Men's Movement BY men), you default on your own biases and political leanings.

I can admit when 45 did something good unlike some D's in Congress... And when 44 did something I HATED... but when presented with a truth, I didn't double down and pretend I didn't read or hear what was being said and done.

I know I'm biased towards certain things and against other things... But when presented with the truth that can't be "debunked" because the facts don't line up with what I ASSUMED... I change my stance and accept it.

And plenty of conservative institutions put out brain rot, too.

Your explanation is just an idea, not a probe. And their advocates seem pretty militants and ideologicals.

 

[Frank Horrigan]

Has any proof emerged that this was real/fake?

Are team real still flying the flag for team real or are Team Fake flying the flag of surrender?

 

[mansoor1980]

 

[InfiniteCombo]

 

[Darth_Ghandi]

Your explanation is just an idea, not a probe. And their advocates seem pretty militants and ideologicals.

I mean, several posters had no idea where or how it came about.
Several people including me just explaining the concept.