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Xbox One: Details on Connectivity, Licensing (24 hour check-in) and Privacy Features
- Thread starter mcfrank
- Start date
shinra-bansho
Member
Yes, I think a large part of the problem is that it is system-wide default that a game cannot be sold/lent/given away and at the discretion of publishers to opt-out of restricting the above.
We actually currently operate under a system in which publishers can implement whatever DRM they desire and impose restrictions on used games, lending or gifting.
At present, rather than cancelling their Online Pass, EA could have simply extended it to simply include the whole game being locked away after first use unless you bought an unlock code. But they would do so at their risk, and consumers could simply avoid games that did so.
With this all games have to phone-home, regardless of publisher, and what you can do with retail purchases is inherently restricted, unless the publisher facilitates some sort of post-purchase activity. There isn't any avoiding it, to do so one would have to avoid the system entirely.
I think if they had implemented a system where publishers would have to actively opt-in to restrictions and online-DRM, then the ire would be more rightly directed at those publishers and consumers could simply avoid games by those publishers.
Grimhammer
Neo Member
So here we are. Vexing over anti-consumer hell. How many times years ago did I tell friends to not buy 360......Xbox live paywall was ludicrous. But some friends, some co-workers just sheepelled along.
Now we're at the next step in a continual did live of our rights as consumers and the erosion of our beloved hobby.
What will you do? Why even bother to fight when the sheep just graze in the corner oblivious to the imminent fall?
Because to do nothing is to fail the same moral fortitude we want in our big corps.
I'll buy a WiiU if I must. And intend to get ps4. I foresee myself buying 3-4 games a year vs that monthly like I have been past 7yrs. Games that aren't open world or rich progression systems are doomed. Why would anyone buy sp only games now? That $59.99 just became a bigger point of contension than ever before. Game design will stagnant on xbone as publishers start to see the ramifications of this new paradigm shift in anti-consumerism.
Now we're at the next step in a continual did live of our rights as consumers and the erosion of our beloved hobby.
What will you do? Why even bother to fight when the sheep just graze in the corner oblivious to the imminent fall?
Because to do nothing is to fail the same moral fortitude we want in our big corps.
I'll buy a WiiU if I must. And intend to get ps4. I foresee myself buying 3-4 games a year vs that monthly like I have been past 7yrs. Games that aren't open world or rich progression systems are doomed. Why would anyone buy sp only games now? That $59.99 just became a bigger point of contension than ever before. Game design will stagnant on xbone as publishers start to see the ramifications of this new paradigm shift in anti-consumerism.
MaxwellGT2000
Member
I keep seeing the occasional person posting, "who cares, you won't be playing these games in 20 years anyway."
"Nobody gets their old SNES or Genesis out of the closet and plays with them anymore. Everyone wants to play the latest games"
Oh really? Fuck you.
I stand with this guy!
Rebuilding my collection of games after a house fire, what happens to us guys when the servers are shut down? We're fucked? What happens when the new system has to log in with my old name I have to deal with the DRM every hour cause I had a house fire? Fuck this shit.
Hey man, if Sony didn't come one year late to the game with a far more expensive console, maybe these "sheeple" wouldn't have jumped on the actual available Next Gen console like they did. Sony pushed people into 360's arms more than the 360 pulling people in on its own.
Now that Sony finally for once in its console existance has the most powerful console of the generation and is releasing this year alongside its chief competitor who is coming in at just over half the power of PS4, I think it's safe to say that I'm not one of those MS sheeple anymore.
Okay, but the draconian DRM system we're dealing with here is not somehow the obvious and natural growth of Xbox Live Gold. Not wanting an Xbox back then doesn't make you prescient.
MaxwellGT2000
Member
The reveal had MS employees in the background cheering, I'm guessing it would be the same, you can pay people to be shills
How much does that pay? These guys' jobs were sitting on internet forums producing spin. I sit on internet forums. Can I get paid? What do you want me to say?
MaxwellGT2000
Member
Heck if I know, I know they were rampant on the site I used to help run and moderate, and apparently a ton of them just got banned here on GAF... sooooo... if you want to go become a shill and likely ousted from GAF go ahead and ask one of those guys.
I originally posted the above in another thread, but then that thread died out with no one responding, so I thought I'd post it here. I have no idea if this has been brought up or not, but would be curious to know what others thought of this.
Hopefully someone responds here. Even if you're a corporate shill/astroturfer that wants to respond, go ahead - at least I'll get some sort of perspective on it.
Pristine_Condition
Member
He really is the best in the world at what he does.
Well for the original reveal, they even added applause audio for situations where none of the shills were clapping.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23sy6hEEdxQ&t=5m41s
NullPointer
Member
The one positive is that if you lost all your discs and xbox in a fire, you could buy a new console, sign in and still have all of your games. Its one thing I do value about digital downloads.
You're fucked in all the other circumstances you mention though.
Forget paid shills, a large contingent of games "journalists" are barely half a step above MS paid shills already, so it would never happen.
MS said they don't currently have rentals. Does that suggest they might at least be looking into how to do it? From how their system works (forced installed etc) it doesn't sound like it could support rentals. But maybe they can update it so that there are special 'rental discs' that gamefly buy and maybe kicks in a 1 hour authentication check, and when you return it to gamefly it cancels the access for you
Plus they are probably working out if publishers want a cut and how to handle that
Plus they are probably working out if publishers want a cut and how to handle that
MaxwellGT2000
Member
That would be a mildly depressing outcome for consumers, it could possibly happen, if game prices were 20 dollars new... oh man is that the cost of our souls? Maybe lol but I highly doubt the same companies stating games should be 100+ dollars a pop would be giving really discounts even with these features, I mean the best we get with steam is 50 vs 60 and sometimes even 60 on there, with a sale from time to time.
I think if publishers, developers, and consumers finally met on some more equal grounds, I think a good middle could be reached but they purposely set the system against consumers, and that's a bad deal. I like steam, even if it is a DRM machine itself, they support making gaming mass market friendly prices like 20 dollars, I think if we did have less intrusive DRM like steam with 20 dollar price tags, no one would be complaining right now, it would even likely turn pirates into buyers, because pirates were never going to buy the game at 60, it's not a consumer lost, but thinking maybe the pirate can't afford the game, and selling it for a price they would buy it at while getting your protections in at the same time would be the best strategy, and literally no one in the gaming industry outside of Blizzard and Valve get this. Blizzard sold starcraft II in high piracy areas for peanuts and Valve sees the importance of lowering the price of games... everyone else? Heads up their asses cause they're trying to get as much money as possible in the most direct ways, which means you the consumer are just an obstacle in the way of what is in your pockets.
Shouldn't Xbox games be cheaper since it's only using half the power anyway? ;p
Honestly it remains to be seen and we can only speculate. PC gaming has always been cheaper than consoles though per game. Always. While we've lived with $60 games this entire generation, PC games are usually around $50 except certain titles without any preorder discount or sale. And even those certain $60 PC titles can be found on preorder for as low as $40 with preorder sales. Exception being any game made by Blizzard which seems to for some reason command a premium price without being a premium product.
Question.
So it checks to see if you are online every 24 hours, right?
Do you have to be online when you first purchase a game to play, also? Say my console verified that I was online six hours ago, and I shut down my internet. I still have 18 hours of offline play, right? Does this apply also to brand new purchases or will they always require an internet connection before playing the first time?
Either way fuck this console, imo.
So it checks to see if you are online every 24 hours, right?
Do you have to be online when you first purchase a game to play, also? Say my console verified that I was online six hours ago, and I shut down my internet. I still have 18 hours of offline play, right? Does this apply also to brand new purchases or will they always require an internet connection before playing the first time?
Either way fuck this console, imo.
SpinningBirdKick
Banned
This doesn't really add up for me.
Where is this money from the gamer sale of the title going to come from?
Is the developer going to refund part of their royalty payment? No, as it's calculated in arrears. This would create negative cash flow where the developer has to refund cash that they haven't received.
Is the publisher going to be willing to refund their revenues generated from these AAA turds when they're struggling to break even on platforms with ~80million shipped? No, times will be even tougher for them trying to extract decent revenues from a much smaller user base at the start of next generation. Shareholders will go crazy at the suggestion of this.
IP licensors (NFL, FIFA, F1 etc) will not tolerate their piece of the pie being eroded by refunds, so that can be counted out too.
Console platform holders love money and they know how often games are traded (Heavy Rain for example) so I can't see them willing to destroy their profit margins by refunding any more than a token amount as points or something else that can't be converted to cold hard cash.
My guess is that the trade in fees and amounts that gamers will receive for their traded titles will be another almighty kick in the balls and this is why they're not willing to disclose it.
Time to get that popcorn ready for when all of this is out in the open...
MaxwellGT2000
Member
Yeah but from the sound of it when you're not on your own console the DRM check limit is changed to once an hour, now since we're talking fire here, what happens when you don't have the serial number, as I didn't have mine with my PS2 or Gamecube, I can't call Microsoft and have them transfer my account without the number as far as I know cause they used the serial to change your account to a new system so you could play your XBLA titles offline this gen... I DON'T ALWAYS HAVE ONLINE UP AND RUNNING 24 FUCKING 7, sometimes the net is out, sometimes I'm at a friends house with my console, sometimes I go to my college with my game console, every year I help host a convention and the game room, in all cases I might be without an online connection, 24 hours is a huge bind, 1 hour? Unacceptable.
Not to mention as far as I can tell if you bought the physical disc, I guess for Xbox One it's because you're too stupid to see there is no point, if you don't have the disc you cannot run the game... as far as I know I really haven't seen any details about that one way or the other, if you have the disc it installs onto your Xbox One, it ties to your account, I guess you still need to have the disc in the console even then.
You don't seem to know what deceptive means.
pieatorium
Member
One of the big problems with the steam analogy is that steam is the store not the platform so to speak. One reason why games are cheaper on steam and also just PC in general but especially DD PC services is that not only is their no licensing fee to the hardware manufacturer there is also no retail overhead (stock, Staff, Building leases etc) or distribution overhead (Packaging, transport etc). Steam takes their 30% and the pubs get 70% which is amuch better deal than retail for them.
If Xboxone games are cheaper than PS4 then someone is going to have to take the hit. Retailers are already getting squeezed on used so they're not going to be into another round of reaming. Any pub that is pushing this is doing so because they want max revenue so lowering prices doesn't sound conducive to that. Which leaves MS, and basically means they would have to have almost zero licensing fees for publishers which means practically losing a multiple million dollar revenue stream.
Pretty sure you'll have to be connected in order to install disc based games. If it works the way I think it does, the 24 hour check will be on an individual game license basis so each game will have its own 24 hour period that needs to expire before it would need its license refreshed.
Megatron
Member
I think you make some good points. At least Xbox Live though offered some benefits. At the time, it offered the best online console experience by a wide margin. So for some people it was worth the price. Also people bought their 360s for $200 less than the PS3, so they didn't mind paying $50 to play online. Xbox One doesn't seem to offer any benefits at all. The one minor thing people point to- the fact that you don't need to swap disks, already exists because you already have the choice to download your games digitally. Microsoft seems to be betting that consumers are conditioned by Steam and ITunes and won't care that they can't resell their games. They seem to think that the people complaining about it will be akin to those who complain about wanting BC and then most of whom never or rarely use it. If Microsoft could actually offer us some valuable benefit as they did with Live, (like selling all games for $40) then some consumers would have an incentive to buy the system, but they aren't. They are offering us fewer benefits and rights and less value than we have ever been offered before.
NullPointer
Member
That'd be my guess too, with the each game or app's 24 hour timer resetting whenever you start that game or app while online.
I have no idea how easy it would be to transfer licenses from the old console to the new if you lost it, but I'm pretty sure thats easy to do today with the 360. They just limit how often you can do it.
Again, I like digital download flexibility but will not abide routine daily or hourly checkups. The idea of checkups at all is abhorrent, but the frequency that MS wants them is just way, way overboard.
Marty Chinn
Member
I would think it would be a set period where the Xbox One just refreshes all licenses at once. Like at midnight or something. It would also do it upon launch of a game as well. I don't think every game will just automatically make a request on its own after each of their 24 hours is up.
cormack12
Gold Member
Is the 24 hour offline thing 24 hours as in:
(i) You disconnected at 1800 Tuesday, we want to see you back Wednesday at 1800 (or)
(ii) is it 24 hours of gameplay? Because that would be a huge difference in the perception of the DRM I think. If it only registers time in-game then it could span quite a few days.
I can't see it confirmed. I think everyone is assuming (i) but if it was (ii) I wonder if that would make it more palatable? Obviously games and TV are ring fenced as TV keeps working after the time has elapsed.
To be honest, it's just out of interest as I won't be getting one, and I have already made sure my parents are looking at the PS4 for my brothers xmas present probably.
(i) You disconnected at 1800 Tuesday, we want to see you back Wednesday at 1800 (or)
(ii) is it 24 hours of gameplay? Because that would be a huge difference in the perception of the DRM I think. If it only registers time in-game then it could span quite a few days.
I can't see it confirmed. I think everyone is assuming (i) but if it was (ii) I wonder if that would make it more palatable? Obviously games and TV are ring fenced as TV keeps working after the time has elapsed.
To be honest, it's just out of interest as I won't be getting one, and I have already made sure my parents are looking at the PS4 for my brothers xmas present probably.
It needlessly overcomplicates what was once a very simple process (insert disc > play game).
E3 will be amazing. At this point it does not even matter what games Microsoft shows. They have destroyed the timeless medium to play them and replaced it with a middle finger to paying customers.
SymbolicGamer
Banned
Both of us are just making assumptions.
As much as people in the industry like to complain about preowned games hurting their sales, at the end of the day GameStop is the largest game retailer in the world and game companies will do anything to make them happy. Why do you think they get so many preorder exclusives?
Like others have said, this policy hurts consumers more than it does game retailers.
I mentioned it before, but I don't sell my games. I made that mistake once with my SNES collection. Never again. I hate shopping at GameStop too, so the vindictive side of me (pretty much my only side) actually wants someone to stick it to them.
Time will tell, but this doesn't matter to me at all. It isn't going to change the way I buy games.
Good discussion.
Marty Chinn
Member
It's definitely the first one.
The timers should be checked and restarted at game boot. If the time has passed and your offline the next time you boot the game you'll need to refresh the license by connecting. If your console is always connected you'll never notice it at all. This is pretty much how Zune/XB Music DRM works except the timer for that was two weeks.
RobbieNick
Junior Member
About the 24 hours thing. What happens if you go on vacation?
I'm not watching the MS conference for once. I don't care how "cool" any of their games may be, I buy games not licenses.
I'm not watching the MS conference for once. I don't care how "cool" any of their games may be, I buy games not licenses.
Why would you want to go on vacation?
MaxwellGT2000
Member
Which is what every anti piracy measure has ever, and will ever be. It just fucks the honest guys, I'm not going to lie, in high school, I pirated a number of games to see if they were worth buying (cause demos were still not that big), generally they weren't I played them as much as PSN+ allows me to, which in an hour, never played again, deleted, done, or if it was a good game I would actually go out and find it on sale... go figure, if it was within my price range and ability to see if the game is good, they get my money, if prices weren't 60 dollars that 10 dollars off the used game wouldn't look so nice.
This is what happens when a company or an industry loses sight of the consumer almost all together, if it wasn't for the devs still interacting with real people, I feel the corporate publishing side wouldn't know how to get a game to sell to actual people.
You forgot #dealwithit
If you go on vacay and your XB is at home connected you wont notice anything when you get home and play games. If you take your XB with you and fire it up after 24 hours has passed without a connection you wont be able to play anything until you connect it and refresh your licenses.
Marty Chinn
Member
Right, I said it would do it at launch of a game. What I'm saying is I don't think they will auto check individually as each 24 hour period is up on a per title basis. I think it'll do a universal check where it refreshes everything in the background when your system is in the low powered state at one specified time per day. In theory if you're always on, you'll never notice, but it's a question of when there's an outage when was the last polling for validation?
NullPointer
Member
Makes sense.
Do we know how prices on PSN/XBL work? Do Sony/MS charge the standard platform fee and then the rest goes to the publisher, with the publisher setting the price? It would be interesting if Sony or MS moved to a straight rev share 30/70 model like steam, perhaps that might encourage more flexible pricing. Having a fixed $10-15 fee on digital sales means only the publisher is taking any hit when dropping prices
I think that was going away this gen anyway. Games would have had mandatory installs due to load time issues from disc.
none.
how many xbox 360 consoles are online at the same time ? way less than how many xbox one will be sold in its first day.
problem with servers right now is a thing of past for Sony and MS.
this is what i think anyway
NullPointer
Member
Thats what they say for all big launches and there are always problems.
family_guy
Member
You regret selling your SNES collection but at least if you go searching you can go buy those games from private sellers. However if there's a game you want to play on XBox One ten years down the road who's to say you will still be able to play it?
Marty Chinn
Member
Ya, I think we're mostly in agreement. We just had different takes on when the automatic background check would happen. Either one I think is a viable option. I just get a gut feeling it's better to batch it than constantly ping the server when you're talking about millions of consoles doing it. I guess we'll find out when people experiment with keeping the thing unplugged =)
What? Sim City only happened months ago. Server outages happen to both Sony and MS now. Why are we thinking they're immune?