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[Rightisright]

A new gen is not all about gameplay, it's about advancing the graphics medium, better framerates, better Ai and physics......Some of the graphical features I saw in Shadowfall, I've never seen in a COD all gen long...….The whole point of a new gen is start a new slate on, set the bar higher for graphics and gameplay...….This gen we were somewhat hindered by the Jaguar CPU, but next gen we are not, having games developed around 8c/16t desktop CPUs, fast SSD's and insanely fast GPU's with raytracing and 3D audio is even more important......Developers will accomplish things we simply could not this gen, not only graphically, but framerate-wise, gameplay design, level design, seamless open worlds, Ai, Physics...….

Next gen is packing so much revolutionary hardware, it is no time to be held back by a 1.31 TF GPU...….Think of it for a moment, I said 1.31TF, that's only the GPU, but next gen we're looking at 12TF or more, with RT and 3D audio, an insanely fast CPU, for AI and physics, so it's not just the GPU, if we are trying to cater for a 1.31TF Jaguar CPU, with no RT, it immediately means you are already constraining your ambition on the title in all ways, not just for the GPU but for the CPU as well,,,,,


Hellblade was a sub 4k video running at 24fps, it's not gameplay and Death Stranding is more impressive anyway.....If Hellblade is the bar next gen, it's really not a high bar...……...I'm pretty sure you will see that in the coming months......

MS cut things out pretty early lke they usually do, for OG XBOX and 360, Xbox 360 owners were already left behind since 2009, when MS was preparing for Kinect, in 2010 it was all about Kinect and trying to push that......OG XBOX was cut off pretty early too......I very much doubt any Sony fan was concerned, but were just making arguments why/how XBOX's taper off really badly every generation...…..Just look at how many exclusives PS4 is getting in it's last year, last 10 months before PS5 arrives, a tonne, so that was the argument there...…..PS4 owners are going out on a high......That's how you do it, how can they complain....they've had 7 years of great software....

Now, I don't want ND, PD, Santa Monica, Guerilla to be constrained by 1.84TF and a Jaguar CPU, they've worked the teats out of those and produced the best looking games in the industry...….I want to see what they will produce at 12+TF and a really powerful CPU. A new gen is a new benchmark for development and a new spec to work from, it's exactly what it has always been......

You can imagine my total shock to see you enter a thread where someone mentions an Xbox game looking high level, and for you then to thrown in how in your opinion it doesnt look as good as a random PlayStation game does.
Do you know why it ran at 24fps? Because it was played off a blu-ray disc and not off a console or PC. But I will shoot off Phil Spencer a very pointed Twitter DM to express how this didn't make your approval.
And if you dont think Hellblade looks 10 times better than Death Stranding, then it's most likely glaucoma.

 

[Shmunter]

And that’s also very sad for those thinking MS actually had bothered to invest in new IPs and titles to showcase the Series X.

Sony should use this to their advantage. Halo as a current gen game with better framerate, draw distance and textures will be far from the ultimate showpiece for a new generation.

Common Sony, a Halo killer built around PS5 TO THE MAX to steal the air in the room is how you launch a new IP. Although we’ve heard of so called halo killers before, but you can only try and try again!

 

[Rightisright]

Sony should use this to their advantage. Halo as a current gen game with better framerate, draw distance and textures will be far from the ultimate showpiece for a new generation.

Common Sony, a Halo killer built around PS5 TO THE MAX to steal the air in the room is how you launch a new IP. Although we’ve heard of so called halo killers before, but you can only try and try again!

Bring back Haze.

 

[PocoJoe]

The new CPUs are the same just faster/stronger.

There’s no physics thing a new CPU can do that the old CPUs can’t.

We see games like control with advanced physics working on those jaguar cores just fine.

It takes almost the entire overhead of power from X1 level to high end parts just to get to 4K 60fps with RT. Next gen consoles existing won’t change that. So scaling that back to sub1080p 30fps will give devs the leeway they need to get those jaguar cores to work.

Unless a dev decides to max out graphics and logic at 1080p 30fps on next gen consoles, which I highly doubt, then they should be able downscale just fine.

Are you serious?

Of course new gen cpu is faster&stronger, that is literally how tech evolves.

You think that only changing from X86 to some other architechture would make physics to be impossible to run on slower hardware? That doesnt make sense.

If next gen CPU will be 4-5x stronger and also have 8 cores/16 threads = it is certainly possible to make games with heavy physics that just wont run on xbox one.

And if we use control as a baseline of maxium what current gen can do = it kind of limits what next gen can be, because if game would have "5x better physics" scaling that for One would probably mean that it is not the same game anymore. If game bases heavily on physics.

Things can be scaled but not infinitely.

And imo hdd vs ssd is the biggest deal, it is harder to scale game that is made to use full speed of SSD to hdd. So, they have to dev the game from ground up that hdd->ssd in their mind.

Anybody whom thinks that this doesnt limit games in any remarkable way is delusional

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

The

It basically comes down to, 3rd party can do whatever they want, 1st party games will have larger teams and more money to make it work on both consoles. Nothing is being held back at all...

If nothing is being held back, why not maintain XB1 compatibility for 7 years? Why only promising 1 year?
Or maybe something is being held back and Xbox knows it?

 

[TBiddy]

If nothing is being held back, why not maintain XB1 compatibility for 7 years? Why only promising 1 year?
Or maybe something is being held back and Xbox knows it?

Because it's a lot of work.

 

[ZywyPL]

Common Sony, a Halo killer built around PS5 TO THE MAX to steal the air in the room is how you launch a new IP.

As Sony themselves proved over and over again, graphics don't make a good game, ESPECIALLY a MP one. Just on the PS3 they had lots of great FPS IPs, with multiple installments, and yet they failed to make anything remotely comparable to Halo (or CoD for the matter). Let's all agree KZ2 was indeed one of the best FPS MP experiences ever made, despite its flaws, but let's also agree it was more of an pleasant accident rather than a well-thought design choices. And I actually think that after all those trials and erros they have given up on FPS genre, and focused what's working out for them really damn good - 3rd person SP games.

 

[Rightisright]

The

If nothing is being held back, why not maintain XB1 compatibility for 7 years? Why only promising 1 year?
Or maybe something is being held back and Xbox knows it?

Things changed with the mid gen refresh consoles. You cant bring out a new console (One X), ask people to buy it, and then three years later dont release your exclusives on it.
The fact that MS isnt screwing over One X owners is to be admired. It says more about Sony than MS.

 

[icerock]

Its hilarious how bent out of shape folks get whenever there is a suggestion that next-gen consoles (specifically Series X on First Party front) will be gimped until 2021. It's a logical conclusion, scaling isn't a magical tool where you adjust the slider and things start working fine. Compromises will have to be made not only on swanky looking textures and resolutions, but also on the overall design of the game to ensure CPU can handle the work-load, to ensure data is being streamed in and out of storage at a fixed rate so the game doesn't break. That eventually means reducing the overall scope of the game, if you want to continue those experiences at higher resolutions or more frames for another 2 years, fine. But, don't pretend the overall game design isn't being compromised by older-gen hardware.

Find a PC equivalent to Jaguar and try gaming on it, you'll be exhausted by the experience of Windows on it alone.

'Scaling' feel like it's 2020 equivalent of 'power of the cloud', we all know how that fared. This one won't be any different.

Because it's a lot of work.

MS initiative was long in the pipeline, but it happened too late. All those new acquisitions need time to build games from the ground-up for next-gen and they simply aren't ready yet. Telling the public that we're 'easing the next-gen transition by supporting old Xbox One family for 1-2 years' sounds a lot better than 'Hey... we don't have any next-gen games for that new $500 machine you bought'.

If MS had 80 million deluded/gullible fanboys like you, the'd be in a great position. Thankfully, people have more sense than that and can separate the PR bullcrap with reality.

God of War 2018 ran like dogshit on the base ps4. The framerate was all over the place. I've been much more impressed with many third party titles than the exclusives this gen.

It's so easy to spot the liars, or those who have never played the said game but still peddle their agendas.

If Olympics had a mental gymnastics category, MS would secure a gold for US every 4 years.

 

[TBiddy]

MS initiative was long in the pipeline, but it happened too late. All those new acquisitions need time to build games from the ground-up for next-gen and they simply aren't ready yet. Telling the public that we're 'easing the next-gen transition by supporting old Xbox One family for 1-2 years' sounds a lot better than 'Hey... we don't have any next-gen games for that new $500 machine you bought'.

If MS had 80 million deluded/gullible fanboys like you, the'd be in a great position. Thankfully, people have more sense than that and can separate the PR bullcrap with reality.

So if we skip your childish ad hominems, your argument is that there won't be any games ready for launch. What do you think Turn10 has been doing the last 2½ years? Twiddling their thumbs? Forza 8 will be a launch game and it will absolutely look next-gen. Halo Infinite as well, since that has been in development for years. I assume we will see one or two more games in the launch window.

A word of advice, btw. Chill it with the personal attacks or your career here will be rather short.

 

[GymWolf]

The new CPUs are the same just faster/stronger.

There’s no physics thing a new CPU can do that the old CPUs can’t.

We see games like control with advanced physics working on those jaguar cores just fine.

It takes almost the entire overhead of power from X1 level to high end parts just to get to 4K 60fps with RT. Next gen consoles existing won’t change that. So scaling that back to sub1080p 30fps will give devs the leeway they need to get those jaguar cores to work.

Unless a dev decides to max out graphics and logic at 1080p 30fps on next gen consoles, which I highly doubt, then they should be able downscale just fine.

Control has horrible performance on console and pc when you destroy a lot of things on screen, and the destruction in that game is nothing more complicated or realistic than what other games showed in the past...there is just more on screen, but it's the same scripted non real time destruction we have been seen since ever.

Also control is a very small scope game with tiny location, good look on doing that on massive openw world with a shitload of things on screen...

 

[Team Andromeda]

I'm almost willing to bet that will only hold true for the 1st year given how long Halo and Forza have been in development, I doubt during the game Pre Production and design stage any of that was done with Series X in mind, so its an easy PR sell. Games that take full advantage of the sreies X are only now going into development and will come 2 to 3 years down the line

You can have the same game on 2 different platforms and it looks vastly different and where even if it's the same game with the same gameplay one will see and hear the difference. I loved the Master system, but there was no way I was going to play Golden Axe or Ghost N Ghouls on it, not when you had the Mega Drive. There was a night and day difference between Forza Horzion II on the Xbox One to the 360 and Fifa just looked so much better on the One.

 

[GymWolf]

A new gen is not all about gameplay, it's about advancing the graphics medium, better framerates, better Ai and physics......Some of the graphical features I saw in Shadowfall, I've never seen in a COD all gen long...….The whole point of a new gen is start a new slate on, set the bar higher for graphics and gameplay...….This gen we were somewhat hindered by the Jaguar CPU, but next gen we are not, having games developed around 8c/16t desktop CPUs, fast SSD's and insanely fast GPU's with raytracing and 3D audio is even more important......Developers will accomplish things we simply could not this gen, not only graphically, but framerate-wise, gameplay design, level design, seamless open worlds, Ai, Physics...….

Next gen is packing so much revolutionary hardware, it is no time to be held back by a 1.31 TF GPU...….Think of it for a moment, I said 1.31TF, that's only the GPU, but next gen we're looking at 12TF or more, with RT and 3D audio, an insanely fast CPU, for AI and physics, so it's not just the GPU, if we are trying to cater for a 1.31TF Jaguar CPU, with no RT, it immediately means you are already constraining your ambition on the title in all ways, not just for the GPU but for the CPU as well,,,,,


Hellblade was a sub 4k video running at 24fps, it's not gameplay and Death Stranding is more impressive anyway.....If Hellblade is the bar next gen, it's really not a high bar...……...I'm pretty sure you will see that in the coming months......

MS cut things out pretty early lke they usually do, for OG XBOX and 360, Xbox 360 owners were already left behind since 2009, when MS was preparing for Kinect, in 2010 it was all about Kinect and trying to push that......OG XBOX was cut off pretty early too......I very much doubt any Sony fan was concerned, but were just making arguments why/how XBOX's taper off really badly every generation...…..Just look at how many exclusives PS4 is getting in it's last year, last 10 months before PS5 arrives, a tonne, so that was the argument there...…..PS4 owners are going out on a high......That's how you do it, how can they complain....they've had 7 years of great software....

Now, I don't want ND, PD, Santa Monica, Guerilla to be constrained by 1.84TF and a Jaguar CPU, they've worked the teats out of those and produced the best looking games in the industry...….I want to see what they will produce at 12+TF and a really powerful CPU. A new gen is a new benchmark for development and a new spec to work from, it's exactly what it has always been......

You were right until the hellblade 2 part.
That game destroy everything we saw on current gen, death stranding is not even on the same planet both on location details or characters details.

Most of the female in ds looks like fake dolls compared to senua lol...

We don't know if it was realtime sure, but he surely destroy everything on current gen by far, only thing that come close was the hanged chick on the second tlou 2 trailer.
Halo infinite trailer was the disappointing one, but he has to run on xone so it's understandable.

 

[DaMonsta]

Are you serious?

Of course new gen cpu is faster&stronger, that is literally how tech evolves.

You think that only changing from X86 to some other architechture would make physics to be impossible to run on slower hardware? That doesnt make sense.

If next gen CPU will be 4-5x stronger and also have 8 cores/16 threads = it is certainly possible to make games with heavy physics that just wont run on xbox one.

And if we use control as a baseline of maxium what current gen can do = it kind of limits what next gen can be, because if game would have "5x better physics" scaling that for One would probably mean that it is not the same game anymore. If game bases heavily on physics.

Things can be scaled but not infinitely.

And imo hdd vs ssd is the biggest deal, it is harder to scale game that is made to use full speed of SSD to hdd. So, they have to dev the game from ground up that hdd->ssd in their mind.

Anybody whom thinks that this doesnt limit games in any remarkable way is delusional

Thinking “next gen” is some magical thing is the delusion.

There’s not some special physics stuff that’s gonna magically appear cause new consoles came out, and SSDs have been around forever.

To play control at 4K 60fps with ray tracing, it takes beefier hardware than What’s in the new consoles, so where is this extra CPU power for physics coming from?

 

[DaMonsta]

Control has horrible performance on console and pc when you destroy a lot of things on screen, and the destruction in that game is nothing more complicated or realistic than what other games showed in the past...there is just more on screen, but it's the same scripted non real time destruction we have been seen since ever.

Also control is a very small scope game with tiny location, good look on doing that on massive openw world with a shitload of things on screen...

Right, so if a game like control with its small scope and tiny location brings very powerful hardware to a crawl with its physics stuff, what makes y’all think next gen consoles will perform better than current top of the line hardware

 

[GymWolf]

Right, so if a game like control with its small scope and tiny location brings very powerful hardware to a crawl with its physics stuff, what makes y’all think next gen consoles will perform better than current top of the line hardware

Because of better cpu? That was my point.

Ryzen gen 3 vs shitty jaguar is probably a more significative difference than 1.8 tf against 12...

Control is probably tailored and optimized for shitty console cpu and that's why run like shit on pc too (still far better than console obviously).

 

[DaMonsta]

Because of better cpu? That was my point.

Ryzen gen 3 vs shitty jaguar is probably a more significative difference than 1.8 tf against 12...

We can already see examples of the game running on a better CPU.

To just get to 60fps with RT you need a CPU that’s much stronger than what will be in the consoles.

 

[GymWolf]

We can already see examples of the game running on a better CPU.

To just get to 60fps with RT you need a CPU that’s much stronger than what will be in the consoles.

Rtx is gonna be a very minor thing on console, devs are not gonna waste 50% or more resources for games that have to offer a jump in graphics from previous gen and real 4k resolution.

Far more powerfull cpu are gonna handle physics, ia, destruction etc. Far better than jaguar, is illogic to think otherwise.

Also 60 frame gaming is not a thing on console, except for few microsoft titles, most of esclusive are gonna be 30 fps.

 

[icerock]

So if we skip your childish ad hominems, your argument is that there won't be any games ready for launch.

No, but comprehension can be hard. It's understandable.

What do you think Turn10 has been doing the last 2½ years? Twiddling their thumbs? Forza 8 will be a launch game and it will absolutely look next-gen. Halo Infinite as well, since that has been in development for years. I assume we will see one or two more games in the launch window.

Didn't realize Turn 10 were part of the new initiative? Oh wait, they have only ever been with MS for 20 years now. Besides, I said 'built from the ground-up for next-gen consoles' and NOT be cross-gen. You know like HellBlade 2 is? New Forza and Halo don't fit into this category. Also, whether it will 'absolutely look next-gen' is open to debate. Just play the Halo Infinite footage next to HellBlade 2 and you'll grasp what I am saying.

Again, to break it down to you in simpler terms, the entire argument was about previous-gen consoles saddling down ultra-powerful next-gen consoles until 2021 at least. The poor hardware is gonna limit the vision of developers, and hence you'll get same old re-hashed experiences just at higher resolution and frames. Scaling isn't a magical tool which will solve these practical hardware related limits.

MS know this too, they want to transition to next-gen Xbox ASAP. They just don't have the necessary software at their disposal at launch. Otherwise, they wouldn't draw an arbitrary 1 year time-line for supporting Xbox One family. But, I suspect you know this already and continue to be deliberately obtuse on this issue.

A word of advice, btw. Chill it with the personal attacks or your career here will be rather short.

I know full well on how to conduct myself on a tech forum, but thanks for your concern. While you're handing out free advises, I have one for you. Learn to quote posts in context, it'll raise the quality of discussion.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

I agree with all of that, which is why MS seems only intending to support cross-gen scaling between the next-gen and X/S/XBO for the first year or so, including this year (some people are forgetting the comment was made at E3 2019). And I don't think (rather, I HOPE) neither system is coming anywhere near maxing out their potential with their launch games or first-year games.

To be fair, most games do not need that much processing power to run at sub 30fps/sub 1080p (like the base xbo often gets on third party games anyway)... The problem is with the more ambitious projects that will be mandated to be adapted to fit in the base system's power envelope.

As for third parties, I think they would do cross gen work anyways, but neither should they be mandated to have their games run on the base systems.

They don't have to max out their potential to do something unthinkable on the base xbox one.

 

[DaMonsta]

Rtx is gonna be a very minor thing on console, devs are not gonna waste 50% or more resources for games that have to offer a jump in graphics from previous gen and real 4k resolution.

Far more powerfull cpu are gonna handle physics, ia, destruction etc. Far better than jaguar, is illogic to think otherwise.

Also 60 frame gaming is not a thing on console, except for few microsoft titles, most of esclusive are gonna be 30 fps.

Again this doesn’t take “logic” or an opinion. We have real world results already. We can look at PC hardware that’s already on the market and deduce what type of performance will come from the upgraded console hardware.

There may be a dev that makes a 30fps sub 4K balls to the wall physics game on consoles, but I doubt it, as that’s not something we’ve seen before. And most games are also released on PC where high end users would not accept 30fps sub 4K for extra physics.

As has always been in the past. Devs will use the power for higher frame rates and resolution.

This is not to say that physics in games won’t improve, it’s just not really tied to the release of new consoles. Look how long into the gen it took a game like control to exist. When these consoles released with those Jaguar CPUs it didn’t seem like a game like Control would be possible, same with Cyberpunk. So sure by the end of the gen we will see some games that are doing things that didn’t seem possible, but that won’t be anytime soon.

 

[DaMonsta]

You know like HellBlade 2 is?

Hellblade will be cross gen like everything else.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

If nothing is being held back, why not maintain XB1 compatibility for 7 years? Why only promising 1 year?
Or maybe something is being held back and Xbox knows it?

Costs a lot, takes a lot of work, and eventually the gap will be so wide that it's too hard to downgrade it to that level, while it's still possible now.

 

[TBiddy]

Didn't realize Turn 10 were part of the new initiative? Oh wait, they have only ever been with MS for 20 years now. Besides, I said 'built from the ground-up for next-gen consoles' and NOT be cross-gen. You know like HellBlade 2 is? New Forza and Halo don't fit into this category. Also, whether it will 'absolutely look next-gen' is open to debate. Just play the Halo Infinite footage next to HellBlade 2 and you'll grasp what I am saying.

Again, to break it down to you in simpler terms, the entire argument was about previous-gen consoles saddling down ultra-powerful next-gen consoles until 2021 at least. The poor hardware is gonna limit the vision of developers, and hence you'll get same old re-hashed experiences just at higher resolution and frames. Scaling isn't a magical tool which will solve these practical hardware related limits.

MS know this too, they want to transition to next-gen Xbox ASAP. They just don't have the necessary software at their disposal at launch. Otherwise, they wouldn't draw an arbitrary 1 year time-line for supporting Xbox One family. But, I suspect you know this already and continue to be deliberately obtuse on this issue.



I know full well on how to conduct myself on a tech forum, but thanks for your concern. While you're handing out free advises, I have one for you. Learn to quote posts in context, it'll raise the quality of discussion.

When you type "the new initiative", are you referring to the studio called "The Initiative", or are you referring to something entirely else? You started out by writing "MS initiative". How the hell should anyone guess what you're meaning by that, if not "an initiative taken by Microsoft", thus referring to the transistion period, that is the talking point of the thread?

The launch games that will be covered by this "decree" will most likely be Forza 8, Halo: Infinite and one or two more. Both Forza and Halo have been in development for years and will of course be a show-case of what next-gen can do. Comparing the Halo footage to the Hellblade footage is just... odd.

I couldn't care less about your rather poor attempts of being sly and cocky, but if you continue throwing around ad hominems - good luck to you.

 

[Hendrick's]

Or Ryse? Or Condemned on the 360 or Halo on the OG xbox or Tomb Raider on PS1...

You are proving my point.

Next gen consoles won't just make games look better, they have the power to add new AI, better physics and destruction. A dev will not add physics and AI in to a next-gen game when the current gen consoles can't handle it.

Why can't AI, physics, and destructible environments also be scaled? They never said the games will be identical across all consoles.

 

[ruvikx]

It's so easy to spot the liars, or those who have never played the said game but still peddle their agendas.

If Olympics had a mental gymnastics category, MS would secure a gold for US every 4 years.

"liars"? The only liars would be those who pretend God of War 2018 on the base ps4 didn't have serious framerate issues. Here's my trophy list & completion stats for the game, i.e. which I completed last year on the "give me a challenge" difficulty: https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/7523-god-of-war/cartermoth

The question should actually be what the hell do people like yourself achieve by outright lying/or labelling people like myself who state facts (certainly regarding that particular ps4 exclusive) as "peddling agendas"? The game is what it is from a technical standpoint & anyone without cataracts would have noticed.

Console warriors gonna console warrior I guess.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

It's mad that defenders of MS' policy, which is motivated by greed, are so loyal to the brand that they'll defend it even if it harms the very hobby that their brand operates in.

If MS came out and said 'all games throughout the entire next gen will be cross gen with XB1' we would still get the infuriating response 'it doesn't matter games can scale' ! But it does matter, if you use your brain.

Aside from it assuredly affecting scope and ambition of titles in their inception, ponder the implications if this is a successful approach - publishers will think no more ambitious titles just feed the cunts the same FPS and sports games they've had for 8 years. We'll make as much money from the large install bases and Xbox fans will do the positive PR for us. Why increase scope or ambition when more of the same year after year sells best,?

Can you imagine all the experiences we would have missed if Sega, Nintendo and Sony had a similar, 100% business-focused approach? Sure, right now MS are saying its only for 1 or 2 years. But it's planted the seed, the idea that 'exclusives are not needed', 'why utilise the power of one machine it's anti-consumer' and other utter bullshit that needs to killed at its birth.

 

[Slings and Arrows]

You are proving my point.



Why can't AI, physics, and destructible environments also be scaled? They never said the games will be identical across all consoles.

I don't understand how i'm proving your point?

Maybe they can be scaled? I was always under the impression that they couldn't be scaled? I'm not a programmer though

 

[icerock]

When you type "the new initiative", are you referring to the studio called "The Initiative", or are you referring to something entirely else? You started out by writing "MS initiative". How the hell should anyone guess what you're meaning by that, if not "an initiative taken by Microsoft", thus referring to the transistion period, that is the talking point of the thread?

The launch games that will be covered by this "decree" will most likely be Forza 8, Halo: Infinite and one or two more. Both Forza and Halo have been in development for years and will of course be a show-case of what next-gen can do. Comparing the Halo footage to the Hellblade footage is just... odd.

I couldn't care less about your rather poor attempts of being sly and cocky, but if you continue throwing around ad hominems - good luck to you.

Initiative referred to array of new studios bought by MS to beef up their FP. As my OP pointed out, those acquisitions happened a year or two too late. Or else, they'd have pumped out some amazing next-gen only exclusives at launch and MS wouldn't have had to draw an arbitrary one-year timeline to support Xbox One family.

The whole point was around cross-gen debate and to answer one of the common assertions that these studios wouldn't be 'held back' by previous-gen consoles when that simply isn't true. That's why I mentioned Halo and Hellblade comparision. One is a cross-gen title, while the other one is built from the ground-up to harness all the power of next-gen consoles. And, it shows, even in a brief cinematic trailer. Once more games that are built around next-gen only Xbox and PS5 appear to light, they would only become more apparent.

"liars"? The only liars would be those who pretend God of War 2018 on the base ps4 didn't have serious framerate issues. Here's my trophy list & completion stats for the game, i.e. which I completed last year on the "give me a challenge" difficulty: https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/7523-god-of-war/cartermoth

It IS lying to peddle the argument that it had 'serious' framerate issues when that isn't patently true. Look up DF/NXGamer video, if there were issues of such scale, they would've been brought to light. But they weren't, you playing/beating the game doesn't change that.

The question should actually be what the hell do people like yourself achieve by outright lying/or labelling people like myself who state facts (certainly regarding that particular ps4 exclusive) as "peddling agendas"? The game is what it is from a technical standpoint & anyone without cataracts would have noticed.

Calling out God of War as 'running like dogshit on base PS4' isn't facts. It's your opinion which has no basis in reality. If you had wrote the same for something like Days Gone then it would be understandable, as that's a opinion by majority at large.

'Peddling agenda' refers to your long running post history on this cross-gen issue, even in a small forum it gets noticed. Allow me to cite an example as to why no one takes your post seriously from a technical standpoint when you deliver gems like these:

Killzone Shadow Fall was graphically & mechanically totally "last gen" when it was released & only marginally better looking than Killzone 3 (better textures & lighting, but smaller scope).

Console warriors gonna console warrior I guess.

Oh my, the irony in that.

Btw, it isn't console warring if someone calls you out on your bullshit but you should know that already.

 

[Alexios]

If multiplatform devs don't like having to have that low a minimum spec for their console games then they won't do it at all and Microsoft will have to reconsider.

if multiplatform devs don't mind it then the PS5 versions are just as constrained by the same minimum spec and Microsoft will see no real drawback from this.

For first party games, we'll just have to wait and see. Maybe the One versions will be clumsy downgrades of games not made for that spec, a la Switch ports.

 

[TBiddy]

Initiative referred to array of new studios bought by MS to beef up their FP. As my OP pointed out, those acquisitions happened a year or two too late. Or else, they'd have pumped out some amazing next-gen only exclusives at launch and MS wouldn't have had to draw an arbitrary one-year timeline to support Xbox One family.

The whole point was around cross-gen debate and to answer one of the common assertions that these studios wouldn't be 'held back' by previous-gen consoles when that simply isn't true. That's why I mentioned Halo and Hellblade comparision. One is a cross-gen title, while the other one is built from the ground-up to harness all the power of next-gen consoles. And, it shows, even in a brief cinematic trailer. Once more games that are built around next-gen only Xbox and PS5 appear to light, they would only become more apparent.

As it stands, Turn10 and 343 will release their games at or around launch. I trust we agree on that one? Both will massively improve the quality of their output during the generation, just like we've always seen with developers. Rarely are launch games any indication of what a true next-gen game looks like, thus I don't really see the issue of going cross-gen for a short while... provided that it doesn't ruin anything for the games running on next-gen. And I don't think it will.

The video we've seen from Halo was supposedly running an X1X. It's clear that it wasn't a cinematic - it was more a small glimpse of what the Slipspace-engine can do, most likely running in-engine. On the other hand we have the Hellblade video. While impressive, it was obviously a pre-rendered CGI and the game will absolutely not look like that a release. Any comparison between the two is moot, and it's certainly not anything we can use to deduce how Halo is being "held back" in anyway.

If it turns out that Halo: Infinite and Forza 8 is getting steamrolled by the PS5 launch games, in terms of looks, feel and gameplay, because of this policy, I'll be the first to eat crow.

It will be interesting to see the first real gameplay videos over the next year.

 

[Hendrick's]

I don't understand how i'm proving your point?

Because not only do early gen exclusives not do anything revolutionary with the new hardware, bit they are also usually not very good.

 

[Slings and Arrows]

Because not only do early gen exclusives not do anything revolutionary with the new hardware, bit they are also usually not very good.

Condemned, HALO, and infamous second son didn't do anything revolutionary with the new hardware?

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

Initiative referred to array of new studios bought by MS to beef up their FP. As my OP pointed out, those acquisitions happened a year or two too late. Or else, they'd have pumped out some amazing next-gen only exclusives at launch and MS wouldn't have had to draw an arbitrary one-year timeline to support Xbox One family.

This is nonsense. You think this policy is because game studio acquisitions happened too late? No, it 's a business decision to make as much money as possible from the old install base.

If those acquisitions were too late, that doesn't explain why MS' stable of old developers couldnt have had at least one game ready.

 

[Coulomb_Barrier]

Because not only do early gen exclusives not do anything revolutionary with the new hardware, bit they are also usually not very good.

Yeah we would have been better off without games like Halo, Wipeout and Mario 64...

Dont be absurd. So devs shouldnt even bother, just treat new game developments the same as ones 7 years ago? Have a word with yourself.

 

[GHG]

Because not only do early gen exclusives not do anything revolutionary with the new hardware, bit they are also usually not very good.

If that's the case I assume you won't be buying the Series X around launch then?

 

[ruvikx]

Btw, it isn't console warring if someone calls you out on your bullshit but you should know that already.

Vomit. I guess being level 15 on the PlayStation trophy rankings makes me a Microsoft fanboy & anti-Sony? How about get the f over yourself.

BTW, claiming digital foundry would have mentioned the framerate problems is kind of hilarious considering it's the same outlet which flat-out swept the framerate problems in Red Dead 2 under a rug (hello slideshow in Valentine & Saint Dennis). God of War has really nasty drops on & around the lake of nine, for example. There's a litany of stutter problems on the base console. You don't need DF to tell you that, you just need to play the game without a Sony shaped dildo up your butt.

 

[ZywyPL]

Rarely are launch games any indication of what a true next-gen game looks like, thus I don't really see the issue of going cross-gen for a short while... provided that it doesn't ruin anything for the games running on next-gen. And I don't think it will.

The game has changed since this generation tho, the PS4/XB1 launch titles are almost on par with the games released today, with very few exceptions from the 1st party titles released just recently or still unreleased like TLoU2, all thanks to super easy and accessible PC-like architecture. There is no secret sauce anymore, and what's more, the developers (mostly 1st party ones) don't have to re-write their engines anymore like they had to when going from PS3/X360 to X86 architecture, it's already done, so they should be able to utilize the next-gen hardware at lauch even more then they could with the PS4/XB1.

But if anything, I'd personally prefer launch titles to sacrifice the graphics and new features a bit for better gameplay, story, MP, and so on, because let's all agree that no one wants yet another Ryse or The Order, which while looking absolutely stunning till this very day have very little do to with being an actual games... In other words, if the devs have to choose between just bumping up the graphics/framerate of current-gen, well established titles (thus releasing them on both consoles), or rushing the so called "next-gen" experience at the cost of little to no content, I'd prefer them to choose the former, hands down.

 

[NT80]

Things changed with the mid gen refresh consoles. You cant bring out a new console (One X), ask people to buy it, and then three years later dont release your exclusives on it.
The fact that MS isnt screwing over One X owners is to be admired. It says more about Sony than MS.

That's what Microsoft did with the first Xbox when the 360 came out 3 years later. Stopped all development from everyone on the original Xbox. I got one pretty late and it didn't matter too much to me as it was dirt cheap and I got to play the impressive looking exclusives like Ninja Gaiden, Fable, Panzer Dragoon etc for a fraction of the cost. There's far more available for Xbox X as it wasn't a new generation console and it would still be supported for some time yet by 3rd party even if 1st party didn't.

 

[Bandi]

That's what Microsoft did with the first Xbox when the 360 came out 3 years later. Stopped all development from everyone on the original Xbox. I got one pretty late and it didn't matter too much to me as it was dirt cheap and I got to play the impressive looking exclusives like Ninja Gaiden, Fable, Panzer Dragoon etc for a fraction of the cost.

who cares what MS did like 10 fucking years ago? The point is THEY DONT DO THIS anymore, whereas SONY DOES and people are PRAISING SONY for this anti-customer behaviour. what is wrong with people? how fucking blind can they be?

 

[MilkyJoe]

If a current gen game (albeit a particularly ambitious one) like Cyberpunk 2077 is struggling to work in a satisfactory way on the OG Xbox One console then how will Microsoft's all-singing all-dancing next generation line-up work on their aged console? If the decree stands then will developers be forced to curb and bridle their ambitions for the Xbox Series X from the off?

We call them ports, where as Scorpio and One S have to share the same disk.

 

[NT80]

who cares what MS did like 10 fucking years ago? The point is THEY DONT DO THIS anymore, whereas SONY DOES and people are PRAISING SONY for this anti-customer behaviour. what is wrong with people? how fucking blind can they be?

And I'm saying why it wasn't such a bad thing then and why moving 1st party to next gen exclusives would be nowhere near as bad as that was. Unlike then you'd also still have a lot of 3rd party support for around 2 more years.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Generations are so long you have to support last gen consoles at least for the first year into next gen.

 

[ethomaz]

Many PC games will not run on a core i3 or core i5 (4 cores not HT)... No matter what you do to the details, and how good the video card is, and this does not only affect recent titles, Far Cry 3 would just not work on my i3 3100 (paired with decent hardware around it), Same with some (eg.: Battlefield 5) newer games are a suddery mess even on the 4 cores i5s that are out there.

There is a point where downscaling makes no sense, otherwise we would still have games down-ported to the PS2 without any meaningful sacrifice.... If you disable physics, ennemy counts, A.I. "intelligense" to make the work on the older hardware it's not the same game anymore, the portion that affects gameplay is not in the performance (graphics) options for PCs.

People that are defending that "magical scale" button just forget what you said... PC scaling has a limit, a very clear limit, the dev choose a range of hardware to work and not support all old hardware that exists.

What PCs devs do is choose a minimum base and work to show they best they can with the top hardware but they are still hold by the minimum base.

That minimum base increases year over year or game by game because if you don't have that devs can't more for more advanced techs and features.

A great example is what is happening today with Ray-tracing.

Devs are choosing to patch the games with RT features after ship the game full rasterized... what they do is just superficial and not what RT can really delivery because their game is at core is fully rasterized without thinking about what they could really do with RT mixing it with rasterization.

Today the minimum base still is graphic cards of 3 or 4 years ago that have no RT hardware acceleration.
What will happen in the future? AMD will have RT, the minimum base will start to move until all cards in the range from minimum base to top-end will support RT features.

When that happens the game will be made at core already taking RT in mind... so you will have a way better use of RT in PC games.

PC game development progress is just that slow because these range of old card they keep supporting for some time... so new features in new Architectures only really are fully utilized in 3-4 years ahead.

That actually matches the end-of-life of a console generation (not coincidence).... when PS5 enter in the last 2 or 3 years of games PC will be at a point where all graphic cards from the base (mininum) up to top-end will have RT features in hardware... so RT features will be used to fully potential in consoles and PC.

Of course the few consoles exclusives games we have today will make that move early because they didn't have to cater a range of hardware but only a single hardware where all features can be used since beginning.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

No, it 's a business decision to make as much money as possible from the old install base.

You talk so much bs From a money making perspective it would make more sense to NOT make it available on older gen, because those people have to buy a new console, which might as well be the XSX since they are already in the Xbox ecosystem...

Don't let your hate towards another company cloud your judgement.

 

[diffusionx]

Condemned, HALO, and infamous second son didn't do anything revolutionary with the new hardware?

These new consoles are just faster PCs than the old consoles. That is the way gaming will evolve going forward, incrementally, not in jumps that correspond to massive gains or structural changes in the hardware. Look at how, say, the Microsoft Flight Simulator series evolved over the decades.

This course was inevitable once everything became commoditized. When they're all PCs it makes sense to treat them like PCs. It will happen on the Sony side too, especially if they start putting their games on PC. And no, Infamous Second Son didn't do anything revolutionary.

 

[DeltaPolarBear]

Because not only do early gen exclusives not do anything revolutionary with the new hardware, bit they are also usually not very good.

So your argument is that it is fine for Microsoft to not release 1st party exclusives for Scarlet, because it wouldn't have been very good anyway?

That's a Bold Strategy. Let's see if it pays off.

 

[Evil Calvin]

New multiplatform next-gen stuff will be developed and playable on the new consoles. Meaning, they will look as good as PS5 on Series X. There may still be last gen versions released for PS4 and XBOne. The new first-party exclusives will work on both. But the Series X versions will run better, look better, no load times etc....while they will still work on Xbox One, albeit with lesser resolution, FPS etc....

 

[GymWolf]

Again this doesn’t take “logic” or an opinion. We have real world results already. We can look at PC hardware that’s already on the market and deduce what type of performance will come from the upgraded console hardware.

There may be a dev that makes a 30fps sub 4K balls to the wall physics game on consoles, but I doubt it, as that’s not something we’ve seen before. And most games are also released on PC where high end users would not accept 30fps sub 4K for extra physics.

As has always been in the past. Devs will use the power for higher frame rates and resolution.

This is not to say that physics in games won’t improve, it’s just not really tied to the release of new consoles. Look how long into the gen it took a game like control to exist. When these consoles released with those Jaguar CPUs it didn’t seem like a game like Control would be possible, same with Cyberpunk. So sure by the end of the gen we will see some games that are doing things that didn’t seem possible, but that won’t be anytime soon.

We can only hope that you are wrong at this point.

But your initial statement was wrong, you can surely do more complicated physics with a ryzen 3 compared to a jaguar, how devs are gonna use this power we don't know, but they have more power for sure.

 

[Journey]

The whole point was around cross-gen debate and to answer one of the common assertions that these studios wouldn't be 'held back' by previous-gen consoles when that simply isn't true. That's why I mentioned Halo and Hellblade comparision. One is a cross-gen title, while the other one is built from the ground-up to harness all the power of next-gen consoles. And, it shows, even in a brief cinematic trailer. Once more games that are built around next-gen only Xbox and PS5 appear to light, they would only become more apparent.

Did you notice that during the transition between Xbox -> Xbox 360 and Xbox 360 -> Xbox One there were also games that were cross gen? This was also the case with PS2 -> PS3 and PS4, this is nothing new. MS is asserting that at least their own studios will continue to support older consoles and seeing how Forza Motorsport 2 looked miles better on Xbox One vs Xbox 360, I don't see an issue.

I'll be happy with a Halo Infinite that runs at 4K and 60fps with added detail over a 900p 30fps Xbox One version that looks muddier. How can you be certain that Halo Infinite's engine wasn't built for a high end PC? Hell Cyberpunk was being developed with the expectation that it will run on current gen as well, and look at how much trouble they're experiencing to get it to run properly on Xbox One and PS4, this tells us that games are already being built for high end PCs and next gen consoles will be the closest matches and will be receiving the best possible version for consoles.

What happens with the result on older consoles should not be your concern, unless you plan on playing said games on the older consoles, but from what I understand, most of the concern is that you will not be getting (For example) the best version of Cyberpunk on PC because they're supporting older hardware, but that is simply NOT true, the headache of getting these on the older platforms is on the studio and Cyberpunk will require a kick-ass gaming PC to play it at its full glory and a decent framerate.