mcjmetroid
Member
Are we sure about this? I mean it IS called Series X so shouln't it start at the X1X?Wait. Games have to work with not just the One X, but the original Xbox One as well?
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Xbox Series X constrained by 'must also work on Xbox One' decree
- Thread starter Matt_Fox
- Start date
Yes, we are sure. The x in the names means nothing in regards to this.
The jump from the last gen versions of those games to the current gen was much larger than the jump they made to their second iteration on current gen.
The improvements to the games came from further experience with the hardware, not from the fact that the games were also released on last gen. We see this with other games that were “exclusive” to next gen, but also made similar jumps in graphics and complexity.
This is just Microsoft saying, for those early games, they won’t arbitrarily exclude past hardware.
DeltaPolarBear
Member
Except that is not what they are saying, because they are arbitrarily excluding past hardware 1 year later.
Do you really, honestly believe that the delay of Scarlet exclusives by one year is an intentional action? Because I don't. If i tell my preceptor that I am intentionally delaying my project by one month by choice, he certainly isn't going to believe me.
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bumleforce
Member
Ya I remember the pc veraion of rise of the tomb raider really being hwld back by that 360 version
CyberPanda
Banned
You know why
DeltaPolarBear
Member
Xbox Scarlet exclusives. They are late by one year, and Xbox is attempting to pretend they intentionally not have Scarlet exclusives at the launch of the console because they are "pro-consumer". And that's basically the parroted response in this forum for weeks now.
The fact that we first heard that there wouldn't be exclusive 1st party games at launch many months ago, suggest that this is not some deliberate strategy. They just had no choice once they realized they couldn't avoid it.
K.N.W.
Member
Yes but it was available on ps1 at launch, way before Xbox. If we have to say the truth, Sony copied the 4 player adapter fo NES/SNES<
T-I-N-M-A-N dX
Member
MS is going the wrong direction here. Now would be the perfect time to officially say they will be dropping support for OG Xbox One and Xbox One S.
Tell everyone that Xbox One X will be the lowest supported system and it will be in the $250 range starting (whatever date) all games will run on Xbox One X or Xbox Series X starting on (whatever date). Everything works moving forward and you can still play older titles on your One and One S but new content won’t be compatible.
Tell everyone that Xbox One X will be the lowest supported system and it will be in the $250 range starting (whatever date) all games will run on Xbox One X or Xbox Series X starting on (whatever date). Everything works moving forward and you can still play older titles on your One and One S but new content won’t be compatible.
Vawn
Banned
And people laugh when anyone suggest this naming convention could cause confusion among less hardcore gamers.
Do you guys realize how many people STILL think the Wii U was an additional accessory for the Wii?
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Slings and Arrows
Banned
I suggest this in a thread a while back (yay for me, right?) and I agree 100% with what you say here. Make the X the official current gen console and give it a huge price-drop. Get people to upgrade by offering 'forward' compatibility for the first 12 months, which also attracts more people to the X as it's a bridge between gens; it can play Xbox One content/current gen games and XSX next-gen games.
They can phase the X out over the next 2-3 years like they do in a normal generation cycle
mcjmetroid
Member
Oh I see I was being logical about this, big mistake.
I honestly thought that was the idea but I guess not. I'm only midly curious about the new Xbox. I love the idea of game pass and haven't had an Xbox since the original. I need them to convince me though.
It does seem like an odd strategy trying to go full force with backward compatibility on a lower selling console. It should be upward and onwards.
I would mention this decision but begin it starting with the most powerful Xbox series X console.
iHaunter
Member
The Witcher 3 was ported to Switch lol
Port is independent of scalabiity... you can port anything to anything since you have money and time.
Now let's ask CDPR to make Cyperbunk 2077 scaleable from Switch to PC high-end
PC having a minimum requirement that increase year after year shows a lot what is really scalability... if you keep being scalable to old hardware you stop to progress and use new hardware capabilities.
MS used to make ports of cross-gen 360 and Xbox One games with two different teams in 2013... Titanfall, Forza Horizon 2, Killer Instinct, etc... they never choose scalability for obvious reasons.
Let's see how they will do cross-gen this time.
It was ported on low and with 15 FPS... What're you going on about? Even BOTW had 25 FPS on average.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
I'm not seeing how the defenders don't get to most of us this signifies something like Halo Infinite won't be the kind of generational leap something like the original Halo was and that's a disappointment to hear? Not everything is scalable, it's possible to make two versions of the game and one with significantly less features (still remember playing the PS2 Deus Ex with lots of crates and boxes filling in stuff taken out) but that would A. still make people who don't jump forward feel like they're left behind, B. be significantly more work and C. not likely what they meant at all. I'll give them praise if they made more than one version of the game, but I'll be kinda sad if Halo Infinite's Series X version simply boasts sharper visuals and faster framerate.
CyberPanda
Banned
Thank god
Yoda
Member
This sentiment existed at the beginning of this gen and quickly died off. I agree with most posters and think the games imposing a cross gen mandate on them will fall roughly into two camps:
- Not be a true next-gen game, as they'll have to account for the lowest common denominator, which in this case is a decade old hardware.
- Will have a terrible last-gen experience (see MGS5) to the point where it shouldn't have been made cross gen.
Coulomb_Barrier
Member
It's like self harm isn't it. Anything MS does that is worthy of criticism, the reaction is automatic defence, because criticisms of Xbox stem only from console wars and not genuine concerns on the implications of this move apparently.
If Sony announced something similar, most of the fans would be up in arms not defending this crap.
Kumomeme
Member
The Witcher 3 was ported to Switch lol
Port is independent of scalabiity... you can port anything to anything since you have money and time.
Now let's ask CDPR to make Cyperbunk 2077 scaleable from Switch to PC high-end
PC having a minimum requirement that increase year after year shows a lot what is really scalability... if you keep being scalable to old hardware you stop to progress and use new hardware capabilities.
MS used to make ports of cross-gen 360 and Xbox One games with two different teams in 2013... Titanfall, Forza Horizon 2, Killer Instinct, etc... they never choose scalability for obvious reasons.
Let's see how they will do cross-gen this time.
'Scalability' not a magic work...downscale is much pain in the ass than upscale..not to mention the devs need to optimize more sku..more crunch for them..imagine how much crunch cdpr devs had due to the delay because of xbox one?
tons of cross gen on xbox360 suffer....forza 2 if i not mistaken even run in different engine in 360...titanfall not even running 720p, its 600p (1040x600 ) with 46fps..thats multiplayer game..what if it is a single player game with tons of A.I? there are reason Uncharted multiplayer can goes 60fps but not in the single player game
Switch port of Witcher 3 is not an easy feat..everything not just being simply because you had money and time..did those money and time manage to put out comparable decent port compare to ps4? look how low resolution and how much the visual aspect get downgraded..this is stuff you gonna get from next gen title on xbox one
Also, this gen we mostly had jump in gpu department than cpu with is less which is not much a leap from last gen ps360..we get mobile, intel atom level cpu here..it makes sense for cpu aspect in game like A.I, physic, object count etc, makes game playable on last gen console and even switch. as the most leap is in gpu side, which is visual department.. "just turn down/off the graphics slider" LOL...but for programmers its not easy though
Next gen is different..they proper jump in cpu and storage...how switch, xbox one and even 360 with hdd speed gonna match game build in ssd speed in mind...try watch DF analysis of star citizen..that game doesnt even run good without SSD
and then with proper desktop cpu ryzen, honestly a physic, A.I, world simulation, object destruction, object perscreen kind of tech can it run on intel atom level cpu? Seriously? why we didnt see game with massive crowd like AC unity anymore? why there no object destruction in retail game?why ms advertise crackdown's object destruction in cloud if jaguar can handled it?how final product fare? Why Nemesis system in Middle earth Shadow of mordor capped alot in Xbox 360 version
next gen leap is different, not simply like ps360 to xbox one/ps4..basically no more simply "turn down graphic and resolution slider"..there cpu and storage side added...some stuff even cant be adjusted that easily
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Point is, it runs. Last gen versions of the games will just have more loading screens.
There was plenty of games with large crowds and advanced physics on current gen. The destruction in crackdown can’t be handled by any consumer level CPU, not even the ones that will be in the next gen consoles. Shadow of Mordor is an example of a cross gen game that took full advantage of the new gen while also being scaled back for last gen. It’s probably a good game to look at if you want to imagine what cross gen games will be this time around.
Like what?
alabtrosMyster
Banned
This is his point, I think. There is a good chance that it's not really a random occurrence, they simply had all these games relatively far in development for the xbox one anyway, so for a year they will maintain support for the older machine (which is not entirely good or bad) because the games were made for it... and the series x will have X type enhancements for now.
That’s how it always works. I’m struggling to understand what point you guys are trying to make here.
Their games pipeline is progressing as usual. It’s not like they had a bunch of games ready for X1 and delayed them to launch with the new console.
DeltaPolarBear
Member
The games pipeline is not progressing as usual. Their Scarlet games pipeline is late by one year, and they are spreading lies that it is suppose to be a good thing.
Microsoft is not trying to do a good or bad thing. Microsoft messed up the Scarlet launch and is trying to control the damage by pretending they did it intentionally. There is no "intent" here. And there is certainly no master plan. Just really, really silly propaganda.
alabtrosMyster
Banned
Certainly you are not up to date on modern physics engines:
From the developer's web site:
"I recommend an Intel Core i7 processor and an NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1070 or better but the game will run on older hardware as well, just slower."
I would argue that it is way more impressive than the strictly rigid body physics we have seen in crachdown 3, and less limited.
Crackdown 3 is horrible in every way possible, even as a tech demo.
Well, nobody here was in the meeting where they decided of the messaging, so it's all air coming out of our behinds. However, I feel that his interpretation is very plausible. How else would you explain that they don't want to show off what their shiny new toy can do for over a year? So we can argue with xbox fans to wait a couple more months before MS finally deliver a meaningful blow in the console wars?... I mean, we have waited since like 2010 or something, all these excuses... This is getting old by now.
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Your opinion doesn’t really matter. The tech at use in crackdown could not be handled by any chip on the market.
The tech you posted here can be done on old hardware, so it seems those old CPUs are capable of some impressive physics after all.
Who said they won’t show off what it can do? In fact they said the exact opposite.
That’s the scenario you guys are creating based on your console wars perspective.
Only thing getting old is the war.
Kumomeme
Member
Yeah it run like ass.SSD is not just for loading screen ...how the game designed at first place will be changed..devs no more need to resort to tons of hiding loading screen trick like hiding in cutscene, tight area sequence like squeeze into rock (ex.uncharted, gow)..game no more limited by storage speed..devs need to designed Spiderman game for a minimum 20mb/s hdd speed..for opening scene devs take months but with ssd they could done it much faster...how much object, the load, how fast etc spider swing gonna affected by this..after this, spidey can swing or any character or object can move faster on map, bigger world,richer world, better world streaming, less popup, less loading area/no more etc..lot of stuff more possible as technical limitation lifted...Flash game are possible, imagine rockstar could done flying in next gen GTA much better, have you see beyond good and evil 2 alpha gameplay? how much object on screen at same time with how information loading with aircraft, cities and even flying scale up to atmosphere?also, originally Horizon Zero Dawn had flying mechanic..there tech demo show Aloy fly riding Stormbird but it somehow not possible to implement in final game basically next gen game will be wild as lof of limitation lifted and devs can pursue they vision that being held back all this time .... and as i said above, certain object moving speed affected by storage speed..and certain engine suck at it (Tom Howard blame hdd speed for slow horse riding LOL)..also with SSD there will be less duplicate asset that could resulted less game size..why there duplicated asset to begin with?because hdd is slow....its more to do than loading speed ..game will be developed with ssd speed in mind from beginning, how it suddenly gonna scale to hdd speed?did devs need go as far adjusting the level? as i said, Star Citizen is good example..all this time we had loading/ instance area for a reason..a game designed with none or less or those how it to suddenly run on hdd that in past game devs resorted to loading screen and bunch of technique hiding it?
Nope....Middle of Shadow of Mordor Nemesis system was downgraded a lot compared to xbox one/ps4 counterpart.Here i quoted DF analysis:
Yes, crackdown basically overengineered with a tech not yet possible, but it could be better if had better cpu at first place for final presentation, something we could see next gen.Why lack of advancement in cpu department this gen compare to gpu?Not just crackdown, there tons of game missing object destruction for a reason.Despite there are plenty game with advance physic and crowd, the devs indeed held back,sacrifying stuff and struggling due to weak hardware..not to mention the vision they had get held back or not even possible at first place..they could do more if had better specs and soon or later devs will definitely hit the ceiling.Hey, its intel atom level cpu here.
Why cyberpunk got delayed and held back by xb1 at first place?
Geometry is one of example..others is stuff related to A.I, physic,destruction etc that i mentioned above..something that could affected core gameplay experience aside downgrading visual
worst case, devs still need to developed based on lesser platform like xb1/ps4, resulted to vision get held back even at design stage
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Yes SSD can make corridors/elevators or other loading screen hiding techniques a thing of the past, the last gen version will just have to stop and load. “Shitty” is subjective. One could argue that all games on console level hardware “run like shit”. Point is, it’s doable and monetarily lucrative to support that hardware so devs do it.
The cyberpunk rumor has been debunked, and even then, the point is the game works on current gen and also takes advantage of very powerful hardware.
Theres no reason to think this won’t be the case for Microsoft’s games over the next couple years.
Kumomeme
Member
Money cant do much if fixed hardware remain weak and at some point, trust me it will hit dead wall.
Dont forget cyberpunk is crossgen..wonder what happened for specifically tailored proper next gen game...and its lie to said that devs didnt have trouble downscaling game.
Oh..they will be a case for Microsoft's games over next couple of year..there are reason they give 2 years time frame for crossgen title here. And dont forget how long last gen drop out.
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Obviously there will be a point where it’s no longer viable to make cross gen games. Either the vision had to be compromised too much or time spent to get it working is no longer worth it.
That’s how it’s always worked. Not sure why this topic is causing so much confusion and controversy.
bilderberg
Member
It isn't just about load times. It directly influences the kind of game you're able to design.
The xbox's internal hard drive gave it a huge advantage over ps2 and gamecube, basically allowing it to work as a cache for games like Halo or Morrowind. One of the only huge pain in the assess for devs in the 360 generation that ps3 had a big advantage over, was that not every 360 was guaranteed to have a hard drive. You often had performance or streaming issues if you didn't have a hard drive, and some games flat out required the hard drive later in the generation. This isn't a dissimilar issue going forward for XBSX. Super fast SSD's wont eliminate load times, but they will raise the ceiling for what kinds of worlds and experiences devs can create.
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Knightime_X
Member
OOF!
R.I.P that good use of 12tf
On the flip side every game will be screaming 600fps on Xbox Series X while they're 15fps on Xbox one.
R.I.P that good use of 12tf
On the flip side every game will be screaming 600fps on Xbox Series X while they're 15fps on Xbox one.
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Going from no hard drive to having a hard drive is a big difference from upgrading to a faster drive.
Like I said, they won’t have to do all those tricks to hide loading on the new gen, but the tricks already exist and can still be used on last gen ports, or worse they will just have a bunch of extra loading screens.
bilderberg
Member
Yes they still will because the expectation for a next gen experience is going to increase. You didn't even watch the video i linked. Sony demo'd their SSD tech on an already existing ps4 game, Spiderman, of course games on ps5 are going to be a generation ahead in terms of demand. Unless you just want a ps5 version of Spiderman to just be the ps4 version, minus load times. Most people probably don't though. They're going to expect bigger worlds, more detail, improved simulations, etc. No way in hell do i expect a developer like Rockstar to prioritize faster load times over the possibility to increase the scope of their games. You think this is a matter of just adding more load screens and it's not that simple.
Bigger worlds, more detail, improved simulations has nothing to do with a SSD.
I think you guys let that demonstration over inflate your expectations of what a SSD will do.
Shmunter
Member
Well, I'm not sure that's correct. Streaming is a big part of games for a long time. There is insufficient ram to hold all the real-time assets in many games. They need to be swapped out constantly as you progress through a level.
Next gen SSD's are said to increase streaming by orders of magnitude from where we are today. By inference that should open up a whole new chapter for artists - asset budgets per scene will go through the roof as they will be readily available.
SSDs can not replace/replicate ram.
It will still all need to be loaded in and out of Ram.
The increase in speed will reduce(maybe eliminate) pop in. Allow for further draw distances, etc.
Shmunter
Member
Those exact benefits are exactly what can add detail.
Envisage a game set in a house. Current gen likely needs to hold multiple rooms in ram, it simply is not capable of bringing in assets for each room fast enough when you cross the doorway. Next gen with a multi gig read/sec capable SSD, each room can be loaded on demand fast enough, therefore each single room allocating more of the ram can have much more detail than in the past.
Pure speculation, but doesn’t take much to envisage such possibilities.
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alabtrosMyster
Banned
Well,he said one thing, but he is doing the opposite. Think what you will, but the series X will see xbone X level of improvement (superficial).
This is not saying much about the competition, but they either are limiting themselves in purpose or the games they had in the pipeline were designed for low processing power to begin with and they decided that this would be their lineup for early in the generation at least (basically no games for the new system for at least a full year).
This is not what I have seen in this game, maybe you saw or played something different. And there are much more impressive physics demos running on GPUs from years ago (the 1070 isn't exactly new by now).
I mean with what "xbox" has delivered lately I don't get why people just take their word for it when someone from MS is talking about videogames.
MoreJRPG
Suffers from extreme PDS
But not the PS4 which is barely spec’d out higher lol
MilkyJoe
Member
This is also true.
Strange this is the first game of this gen we heard about and it'll be out in the last year and can barely run on this gen systems... How funny
OmaeWaMouShindiggity
Member
No one (realistically) expects people to still be able to play 2025 xbox games on an xbox one. Someone high up just needs to be real and say something along the lines of "Xbox One OG and Xbox One S will be supported until 2022 and 2023, respectively."
Heinrich
Banned
What? Again.
Only for the first year of Xbox series x release ONLY XBOX studios will come to Xbox one and Xbox series X. That’s it.
Only a single year.
Only Xbox studio games
OmaeWaMouShindiggity
Member
So multiplats don't have to follow the "work on X1 OG" rule? That's actually great to hear.
Heinrich
Banned
correct. It’s only Xbox.
Just imagine people buying Xbox one X right now and now MS would tell them: yeah no more XBOX games for you bro.
Of course no one expects it from third party but as the console manufacturer they should support their own console longer! That’s why Microsoft is doing it.