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Yoko Taro (Nier Automata) Addresses the 2B butt controversy

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Every time someone mentions NieR in a story or music thread would be sure to talk about her.

The difference between her and oneechanbara and lollipop chainsaw is that the latter is blatant pandering and hers is actually in-game being criticized by the other characters as a way of yoko taro dismissing common cliches found in the industry as well as other story reasons. And it's not just done in NieR but is common in all of his games. Yoko does this to critize the industry itself. It's his whole shtick.

They don't talk about the other games because frankly, they suck.
And Quiet was also designed as an "as an antithesis" to "excessively exposed" characters from past fighting games. It's a pot kettle type of situation.Kaine was pretty blatant pandering despite passing comments.

So, I'm gonna take that last sentence you have there, and apply it to Bayonetta.

People still talk about Bayonetta, and she's been around just as long as the others you mentioned. Why? Because in that game, the sexualization means something -- it's empowering and fun as hell, whether you're a guy staring at her crotch, or a girl enjoying being an undeniably woman badass.

I don't really feel like going into all of that now, but if people can still talk about how amazing Bayonetta is (regardless of others taking a very different meaning from it all), then there's just as much a chance of 2B being the same in the end.
Bayonetta 2 did a fantastic job at undermining Bayonetta by not turning off "voyeurcamera.exe" when she was in legitimate danger. And let's not pretend that she wasn't legitimately controversial or a success as far as sales go after two entries.

Well, I mean, you can disagree with Kaine's character design but you have to acknowledge that in-world there is a very good reason for her to dress as she does, even tied to the story (if you played through the endings). And just wandering around there's no shortage of potshots taken against her by weiss and Emil.
I'm sure there's absolutely nothing else she could've worn whatsoever to expose as much skin as possible, just like Quiet absolutely could've found nothing else but a bikini and thong, and ripped leggings in the desert. Nope. Lingerie is absolutely the only possible answer. And certainly there's no issue whatsoever in writing women with a plot that deems they must expose as much skin as possible. Again, it's lolworthy and the sooner we stop accepting such reasons as justifiable the sooner the medium can move forward.
 

Doc Holliday

SPOILER: Columbus finds America
I always side with the devs on these kind of issues but I also think people have the right speak up if they see something wrong.

I do find it funny the amount of anime girl avatars cheering Taro on.
 

RM8

Member
See, this is why we can't have variety.
Why? I don't oppose those characters existing, lol.

Adam and Eve are definitely considered handsome by Japanese beauty standards, and that's something you should keep in mind when discussing sexualization in a Japanese game.
And even in Japanese games, partially undressed dudes designed to be attractive (like these two) are not the norm. No wonder no one complains about the over representation of characters like these two.
 
1) It is impossible to claim that fictional person has the same sentience and agency that the real person does. You can't say "that fictional woman likes wearing shorts" without admitting that there was a creator's hand in between that.

2) If I made a fictional thing where a character based on you did something that you really wouldn't do - would you say that's a fair representation of you?

1) So is an admission that any woman in fiction wearing shorts is wrong? Why a character would wear shorts if is not because she was created with the agency of choosing shorts because she likes it? Any other reasoning would just go around the male gaze.

2) What characters are designed around specific individuals? I don't think is the case with 2B...
 

Riposte

Member
Nier is considered a cult classic, so it gets talked about a lot even years after the fact and Kaine isn't passed over in the slightest. A very liked character overall. Lolipop Chainsaw, while from a cult developer, does not particularly stand out, but Juliet is still a liked character relative the popularity of her game and had a fair amount of niche buzz. Oneechanbara is pure kusoge and the characters don't have much broad mind-share even among otaku types. What is this suppose to demonstrate exactly? That these characters have different receptions and thus are not all the same?
 

Hektor

Member
there are like two whole instances of a sardonic remark and the outfit is still something she commits to. i like to give yoko the benefit of the doubt but i don't really buy this.

Weiss literally calls her a hussy the entire way through, whenever she even attempts to open her mouth.

The first time you met her, Nier has to comment on her outfit over anything else.

The first time you come to facade weiss calls her outfit filthy for being nothing more than underwear.

When you fight Rubrun and she tells the others to shut their mouth and fight, weiss only comment to that is how they can't possibly take commands from a girl in lingerie.

Those are just the three i currently remember.

There are definitely a lot more in the game if i would rewatch all the dialogue and cutscenes
 
And i'm sure i'll regret my words and deeds just like with Quiet and Cindy. /s Again, usually the reasons for justifying sexualization are pretty lolworthy, Kaine from Nier 1 is an example of that actually. In fact I'd argue that the more devs and subsequently their try to unironically justify it with a narrative reason the more they're missing the point entirely about why people take issue with the blatant sexism in so many games. Plus the sexualization gimmick obviously wears off as the next game with yet another one is announced. Leading to yet another example of either an unremarkable sexualized character or a sexualized character whose serious story is undermined by the blatant male gaze pandering of her design. Like, who still talks about Juliet from Lolipop Chainsaw, or Onechanbara? Hell, who the hell even still talks about Kaine?
Have you played Nier yet or are you still basing your information on youtubing the cutscenes?
 

Audioboxer

Member
And Quiet was also designed as an "as an antithesis" to "excessively exposed" characters from past fighting games. It's a pot kettle type of situation.Kaine was pretty blatant pandering despite passing comments.


Bayonetta 2 did a fantastic job at undermining Bayonetta by not turning off "voyeurcamera.exe" when she was in legitimate danger. And let's not pretend that she wasn't legitimately controversial or a success as far as sales go after two entries.


I'm sure there's absolutely nothing else she could've worn whatsoever to expose as much skin as possible, just like Quiet absolutely could've found nothing else but a bikini and thong, and ripped leggings in the desert. Nope. Lingerie is absolutely the only possible answer. And certainly there's no issue whatsoever in writing women with a plot that deems they must expose as much skin as possible. Again, it's lolworthy and the sooner we stop accepting such reasons as justifiable the sooner the medium can move forward.

Medium can move forward to what exactly? Something you exclusively want? That's not how it works, even when giving feedback. If that is your thoughts on how it might go prepare to be very disappointed in the years to come. There will always be diversity and creator autonomy, and even if some creators change their minds about things they do you will never reach some utopia where every piece of content and game is made to suit your needs.
 

Mendrox

Member
Genius

tevhWrP.png
 

convo

Member
Adam and Eve are definitely considered handsome by Japanese beauty standards, and that's something you should keep in mind when discussing sexualization in a Japanese game.



Kainé and Zero are both crazy and that doesn't stop them from being considered attractive.
Who said that's not the case? The real "problem" here is that people are getting attached to characters Yoko Taro made without knowing what sort of fate is usually in store for them.
The least one can hope is that tragedy is off-screened in some novel so that not everyone falls into despair.
 

killatopak

Gold Member
And Quiet was also designed as an "as an antithesis" to "excessively exposed" characters from past fighting games. It's a pot kettle type of situation.Kaine was pretty blatant pandering despite passing comments.


Bayonetta 2 did a fantastic job at undermining Bayonetta by not turning off "voyeurcamera.exe" when she was in legitimate danger. And let's not pretend that she wasn't legitimately controversial or a success as far as sales go after two entries.


I'm sure there's absolutely nothing else she could've worn whatsoever to expose as much skin as possible, just like Quiet absolutely could've found nothing else but a bikini and thong, and ripped leggings in the desert. Nope. Lingerie is absolutely the only possible answer. And certainly there's no issue whatsoever in writing women with a plot that deems they must expose as much skin as possible. Again, it's lolworthy and the sooner we stop accepting such reasons as justifiable the sooner the medium can move forward.

Haven't played mgsv so I won't comment on that. Iirc Kaine wore those clothes so she can reassure herself and show the other kids that she is actually female. This is because in game she is bullied for having a dick. Yes a dick. She literally has a dick.
 

LotusHD

Banned
I always side with the devs on these kind of issues but I also think people have the right speak up if they see something wrong.

I do find it funny the amount of anime girl avatars cheering Taro on.

Eh, these posts are kinda annoying, as if y'all want to start something or get something off your chest lol

It's okay for me to say this, this is a manga avatar ;D


Lmao
 
I hadn't seen those pictures of the two male characters, one of which has his pants unbuttoned. Nice.

That's the kind of thing I'm pulling for in more games, that if there are sexy characters that are appealing, appeal to more then just the standard. I detest it when there's a clear pattern where the women are designed to be fashionable and sexy, but the men aren't.
 

Giever

Member
Because one is real life and the other is entertainment

A human creating & publishing a particular character is 'real life'.

So basically what you're saying is that the creator's freedom to express in terms of the character's dress should be the same as a woman's choice to dress sexually or not?

Obviously, people are free to do as they will as long as it doesn't impinge on anyone else's freedom. Though I don't think anyone is impinging on creators' freedoms anyway.

It's literally the main issue with comparing a character designed for men and a woman dressing however she wants, whether it's because she likes to show off or just because looking good feels great.
Though in this hypothetical, as I have to keep reminding you, we're discussing a woman that is specifically dressing for the attention of men which, again, happens.

She has an agency that characters don't have in anyway shape or form. That's the crux of the issue entirely.

Yes, the characters cannot possibly have agency, which is why the discussion is about the agency of the creator, as they are the ones committing the 'act' of releasing the character (their design, etc.).

Coupled with the fact that what she's dressing in at the very least has a goal and context that makes sense. Compared to the absolutely lolworthy reasons devs come up with for sexualization.

They don't need a reason to design & release a character a particular way anymore than any person needs to give a reason why they decided to get dressed and go out a particular way.

And here's something that should be shocking to absolutely no one, an artist is always subject to critique.

I agree!

Obviously the game is in development and about to be released, doesn't mean jack shit when it comes to how people critique the work, in fact, if I criticize aspects of the game design, what equivalency would you attempt to create?

I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't criticize the work. Of course people are going to, and I think that's fine. Criticize all you want, game design, music, character design, etc. Do it from a technical perspective, or a moral perspective, or a historical perspective or whatever perspective you like.

Would this:


still apply. Probably not, because that argument is bullshit.

Like I tried to say above, I'm not against people criticizing, and I don't think criticism is censorship, and I don't think anyone is stopping creators from creating & publishing what they want. Your misunderstanding doesn't make the argument bullshit, and I'm not even making an argument. All I've been trying to understand is why one (how a woman chooses to present herself) is above criticism and the other (what a creator chooses to create & publish) isn't. As shitty as it is, it just seems like both should be up for criticism. I can't see any other way around it, anything else just seems inconsistent. Again, the only difference still seems to be extent of how many people it affects. Both are acts that people are free to make, and both can have negative consequences regardless of the relatively harmless nature of the acts themselves.

At the same time, I don't really think that anyone should shame someone else for how they dress, but I think there's some room for acknowledgment that, in some instances, it can be problematic. Even if one wants to point out that most if not all of the 'problem' is on behalf of the individuals who do the objectifying when looking at women, that doesn't change the effect. And the same can be said for something a creator makes, that the problem resides more in those that latch onto and are influenced by it than the art itself, but, again, it doesn't change the effects. It's a tough knot for me to unravel.
 

Clear

CliffyB's Cock Holster
Speaking of the whole "ashamed of your words and deeds thing", Nier actually delivers on that premise in spades; its whole deal is that you shouldn't take things at face value and I really cannot imagine that theme not continuing in Automata.

A2's flaking paint/lingerie look is classic Nier manipulation; especially given that we already know this is a game about machines fighting machines. Within the fiction, these are all mechanisms, yet how we relate to them, and how they relate to each other is largely determined by appearance.
 

RM8

Member
Without the intent of being offensive, I'd say part of why these never ending discussions take place is precisely because "anime avatars" indeed have a much higher tolerance for sexualized Japanese animation. Games get exposed to a much wider audience than anime, though, so it's natural to find dissenting points of view. There's really nothing wrong with respectfully discussing about this, really.
 

Audioboxer

Member

lol, what did he expect? Although I'd probably refrain from opening anything sent my way. Not just about viruses, but I'm sure there is a load of terrible content in them zip files. Unless he just means people tweeting "fan art". In which case I'd bleach wash my eyes and/or ignore Twitter @ replies for a week.
 

Setsu00

Member
Speaking of the whole "ashamed of your words and deeds thing", Nier actually delivers on that premise in spades; its whole deal is that you shouldn't take things at face value and I really cannot imagine that theme not continuing in Automata.

A2's flaking paint/lingerie look is classic Nier manipulation; especially given that we already know this is a game about machines fighting machines. Within the fiction, these are all mechanisms, yet how we relate to them, and how they relate to each other is largely determined by appearance.

One of the things you get to hear during the demo is that the environment recovered a little since humans left earth and that wild life seems to be returning, which definitely makes 2B and her fellow units less sympathetic as they eradicate the seemingly "good" bio machines.
 

Tohsaka

Member
Without the intent of being offensive, I'd say part of why these never ending discussions take place is precisely because "anime avatars" indeed have a much higher tolerance for sexualized Japanese animation. Games get exposed to a much wider audience than anime, though, so it's natural to find dissenting points of view. There's really nothing wrong with respectfully discussing about this, really.

Not necessarily. There are lots of anime fans who refuse to watch shows if they have too much or even any fanservice, depending on their personal preference. This likely extends to their preference in games as well.
 
I don't know what this 2b butt controversy is but judging by the avatars of the people applauding this man/woman I'm going to assume he/she is in the wrong.

Not that this game will sell enough for any of this to matter one way or the other anyways.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
Haven't played mgsv so I won't comment on that. Iirc Kaine wore those clothes so she can reassure herself and show the other kids that she is actually female. This is because in game she is bullied for having a dick. Yes a dick. She literally has a dick.
Yes i'm aware. Again, much better ways to do this than having a character designed like this:
SO5mjB1.jpg




I think you should tell that to the Gamergaters and neo-nazis with anime avatars who are drumming these things up
Why do that when they could falsely place the blame on an imaginary boogeyman while using excuses like "b-b-b-but women in real life."
 

zethren

Banned
I don't know what this 2b butt controversy is but judging by the avatars of the people applauding this man/woman I'm going to assume he/she is in the wrong.

Not that this game will sell enough for any of this to matter one way or the other anyways.

One of the characters, 2B, has a short skirt.
 

Audioboxer

Member
Yup, whole lotta butt in that thread, there was another big separate thread that was mostly about automata butt and now this thread. Not meant as a knock on the game or anyone, just an observation.

For many understandable reasons nudity/sexual content gets a ton of debate. For many iffy reasons nudity is still largely the scapegoat of a lot in the west. Some of it seems to come from sheer immaturity around sex and sexual content, from both sides.

I understand the irony in that last sentence in that many developers behave rather immature themselves. Sex isn't something to be ashamed of though, and unless you live under a rock sexual needs, desires and content is all legal and often healthy to consume. False equivalencies of video game characters to real humans are a bit daft, as one has autonomy and the other is just make believe. That debate will be one to really visit once we master AI and we actually have androids.... It'll probably come about one day! Sex dolls can be argued to be a bit creepy, but they don't have any sort of AI or anything resembling autonomy.

However, the good debates tend to revolve around offering developers feedback when there is cliche roll your eyes sexual content and/or content that just doesn't fit. Often though there is criticism of said feedback when it seems to be targetted at niche content like Nier. Mainly because it's coming from an honest developer with a history of creating adult rated content, and as I've said above some are just going to have to accept not every single game ever released from now until this planet ends is going to be put through a purity filter and be one for the kids. What most of us can criticise in unity is stuff like Kojima's creation of Quiet and way in which he framed it. Not because skin makes us run for the hills, but he lied and was dishonest. That's more immature than being upfront that you like sex/sexuality and it's going to be in your game.
 

Battlechili

Banned
I wasn't aware there was a controversy.

Taro's response makes me happy nonetheless though. I love lewd fanart. Him saying this will probably result in a bunch of people making and sending him fanart just because he said this, haha. I'm glad. Nier and Drakengard deserve more love and recognition from artists. Though wasn't the screenshot that showed she had a butthole on her model fake in the first place? I don't mind either way, but if I'm right her in-game model never had such features.
 
***
Okay, the debate seems to have gotten a slightly better scope than just 2B and this wonderful, wonderful tweet; so I'll try to talk about something more broad regarding fanservice. Feel free to skip freely over this post if you don't wish to talk about it in a broader sense. Also, I haven't played any of Taro's works so far (only got a PC) so I can't comment on his creative approach to these concepts.
***

People seem to claim that 2B's design is sexist (a few examples in very thread). Why exactly can you extrapolate that just designing a character in a sexually attractive way is inherently sexist? None of us here has played the game in full, and thus we do not know if this is a treatment that applies to a majority of characters/ any fraction of the female cast. Or does this single character being in revealing attire in itself sexist? If so, why? What part of it implies or states anything derogatory about women? If it is solely because it's pandering (and I mean solely in design, not in characterization), I have something to ask. What is so wrong with a game having a minor (or major!) goal of titillating a particular audience? It it because it alienates part of the audience? Is it because it draws attention to the body of a woman?

PS: Love the tweet.
 

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
I don't know what this 2b butt controversy is but judging by the avatars of the people applauding this man/woman I'm going to assume he/she is in the wrong.

Not that this game will sell enough for any of this to matter one way or the other anyways.
A bunch of GGs creating a false controversy. Actually it's pretty telling how many people are willing to fall for it and place the blame on the same boogeyman though while unironically praising a creator who's just as misinformed about the "controversy" and it's origins as they are.
 

Meguro

Banned
Not that I agree with Taro here, despite really liking his games, but calling everyone who either disagrees with you or has an anime avatar a GG is pretty shitty.
 
Not necessarily. There are lots of anime fans who refuse to watch shows if they have too much or even any fanservice, depending on their personal preference. This likely extends to their preference in games as well.

Pretty much this.

Also, one character having something like this is still different than the equivalent of a fanservice harem show that's really in your face with it.

The anime avatar thing is the lamest thing anybody can bring up Nd says more about you when in a debate than anything else

I don't understand how that's allowed to fly either

Agreed.
 
The anime avatar thing is the lamest thing anybody can bring up Nd says more about you when in a debate than anything else

I don't understand how that's allowed to fly either

Edit:for example that shitpost below me come on
 
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