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[see5harp]

That's not how evolution works. My God, I need to step away from this thread.

That sounds like a clear joke.

 

[Acerac]

I'm not joking. Basketball, track, etc.. These are all luxuries, games, entertainment. Breakdown all the barriers and setup quotas to insure diversity.

I would like to see the positions women would fill in some of the more physical sports. The NHL would be a marvel to watch under your proposal.

...

I approve!

 

[Platy]

tl;dr "i'm not transphobic, i'm just stating the biologically objective™, like we did with the gays, women, and minorities for hundreds of years"

It is even worst because we already live in a world where the OLYMPIC GUIDELINES state that trans people are totaly ok to compete.

It is just forum posters thinking they know anything about how genetics, hormones and stuff works on people without reading a single text about trans people, therapy and other stuff.

Yes, women who transitioned later might be taller but than again if that was the problem you would make a height distinction between cis women too =P

 

[Ashhong]

This is a tricky one. In this case, they are just kids so I wouldn't cause a fuss myself if my kid was a loser in this race. It's not exactly professional level so why upset people?

I'm guessing you don't have kids. You will understand when you do. Parents are hardcore. I don't agree with how this is being handled by them, but I'm not surprised.

 

[TM94]

The male/female sports distinction ought to be dissolved anyway.

One of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

 

[Trojita]

It is kind of disconcerting to see people having no issue pointing out the difference in attributes between men and women, and freaking out over it being pointed out in different ethnic groups.

Both are pronounced, and both are worth bringing up. He is completely correct that certain ethnic groups dominate certain athletic competitions. You can't deny it.

Because this

I'm not saying every black person is built like that. I'm saying that every black person on average is genetically more physically capable. There is nothing wrong with it and it isn't racism.

Isn't fact. It ignores the wide spectrum of individuals and their differences that make up black people. And his posts are bordering on Eugenics.

 

[masud]

Yeah I can't get behind this. If you are genetically male you shouldn't be allowed to compete in women's athletics. It's crazy to me that someone would argue otherwise.

 

[Dennis]

This is your thread, HolyBaikal. This thread was made for you.

 

[cyberheater]

The blatant unfairness of a trans girl getting third place will destroy american sports!

At least you admit it's blatantly unfair. That is a start.

 

[xandaca]

She finished fifth and third? There's certainly a debate to be had about whether transitioned girls have physical advantages, but in this case at least, it doesn't seem to have made a significant difference, at least not one where she was able to win outright even once. If patterns develop over long periods of trans girls demonstrating consistently superior results to cis girls, that's one thing, but this seems more like parents finding an excuse to get pissy over their children not making the mark.

 

[Hatty]

I'm sure if men and women competed on the same field over 100s of years, those differences would begin to fade.

What biological rule is this?

 

[Alexlf]

This is your thread, HolyBaikal. This thread was made for you.

They couldn't be here in person, but they're here in spirit.

 

[A Link to the Past]

This is your thread, HolyBaikal. This thread was made for you.

I've seen HolyBaikal mentioned a few times, what's his deal

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

What biological rule is this?

I'll admit, biology is not my strong suit

 

[infinitys_7th]

That's seriously not how evolution works.

What does it matter? They are not listening at all.

 

[Henkka]

What biological rule is this?

The rule of believing in something hard enough.

Seriously though, for the evolution idea to work, you would have to find the women with the most athletic genes, and have them give up their careers in sports to breed like rabbits. Then maybe also suppress breeding from women who don't have those genes, and do this for thousands of years. It's mind-blowingly absurd.

 

[SummitAve]

Run faster.

It doesn't matter if a horse entered the race your time is what it is. Similar arguements have always been made about rural vs. city schools or public vs. private. There's always going to be unfairness and the ultimate lesson of high school athletics is growing and developing as a person, not winning or losing.

 

[Kinyou]

It is even worst because we already live in a world where the OLYMPIC GUIDELINES state that trans people are totaly ok to compete.

*Depending their testosterone level is below a certain limit, which sounds like a sensible middle ground to me.

 

[trembli0s]

Good point. It does make me wonder though if there's also less quality coaching and training on the women's side in that case. I just find it hard to believe that the gap is actually a lot bigger than i originally would have believed.




That's a good read, thanks for the insight!

The coaching isn't particularly relevant in the case of countries like Australia and the United States where the women are actually more popular than the male teams.

The male teams for those countries will basically never compete for a World Cup due to the institutional advantages of European and South American teams while the women's teams for those two countries are near essentially the pinnacle of the sport.

 

[HawksWinStanley]

It is even worst because we already live in a world where the OLYMPIC GUIDELINES state that trans people are totaly ok to compete.

With the caveat of undergoing HRT for a certain amount of time, correct?

Do we know if this girl has been undergoing HRT? If so then she should be able to compete no questions asked. If not then I don't see how this argument about Olympic regulations holds any water.

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

Run faster.

It doesn't matter if a horse entered the race your time is what it is. Similar arguements have always been made about rural vs. city schools or public vs. private. There's always going to be unfairness and the ultimate lesson of high school athletics is growing and developing as a person, not winning or losing.

Do you realize how large the difference between a male vs female runner is? Or how competitive high school track can be?

 

[norm9]

Run faster.

You can run as fast as you want but if your opponent is Danny Almonte in relation to the other runners on the field, you're not going to place in front of that person.

 

[Platy]

*Depending their testosterone level is below a certain limit, which sounds like a sensible middle ground to me.

Yup. Hormone replacement therapy for at least a year.

Nobody is arguind against that here ... people are saying that EVEN WITH THAT trans women are still in favor.

...or arguiing in favor of no women/men distinction on sports which is something I will not understand because we are in a pretty binary thread

 

[Squirrel Killer]

She finished fifth and third? There's certainly a debate to be had about whether transitioned girls have physical advantages, but in this case at least, it doesn't seem to have made a significant difference, at least not one where she was able to win outright even once. If patterns develop over long periods of trans girls demonstrating consistently superior results to cis girls, that's one thing, but this seems more like parents finding an excuse to get pissy over their children not making the mark.

This was the state final and apparently her first year of competing.

 

[SummitAve]

Do you realize how large the difference between a male vs female runner is? Or how competitive high school track can be?

In this case, not a big enough difference to even win first.

Are we supposed to make concessions for runners at larger schools placing in the middle where if they ran at a smaller school they would be towards the top? Your time is what it is.

 

[Apathy]

Good point. It does make me wonder though if there's also less quality coaching and training on the women's side in that case. I just find it hard to believe that the gap is actually a lot bigger than i originally would have believed.




That's a good read, thanks for the insight!

There's no way top level women's sports team, specially country nationals, have lower quality coaches or training than under 18 boys teams.

Even the most dominant women's teams to have existed in some sports train specificslly with U18 boys and lose. Believe me, the Canadian women's hockey is of the highest calibre, with coaches, training and everything else being top notch (we don't fuck around with hockey here and we support of female hockey team, hell they don't let us down like the men's team). These are also players that have played hockey for longer than the boys they practice with.

 

[vaderise]

I'm not against transgenders or anything but biologically transgender persons has both advantages/disadvantages when it comes to atlethism and it's not fair.

 

[Platy]

With the caveat of undergoing HRT for a certain amount of time, correct?

Do we know if this girl has been undergoing HRT? If so then she should be able to compete no questions asked. If not then I don't see how this argument about Olympic regulations holds any water.

We know nothing because the links are pretty shit

The amount of problems I have with this description is insane

 

[TaterTots]

Can we stop pretending 3rd place is some scrub tier placement? 3rd place is recognized in track and field.

 

[FyreWulff]

I'm not against transgenders or anything but biologically transgender persons has both advantages/disadvantages when it comes to atlethism and it's not fair.

There are also people naturally with different chromosome or androgen configurations. The biblical idea of there being two hard genders in the first place is incorrect.

 

[ElFly]

Can we stop pretending 3rd place is some scrub tier placement? 3rd place is recognized in track and field.

Point is, other girls -who we are assuming are cis- beat her.

 

[Pops Maellard]

At least you admit it's blatantly unfair. That is a start.

Most of this thread is GAF realizing that sports as a whole are inherently unfair because genetics.

 

[TatteredHat]

Yeah, the transgender teen would have an advantage over the other contestants. That isn't to say that automatically means they'll always become first, but it's still going to be there. When it comes to physical sports and competitions, transgender M->F shouldn't be in the female bracket.

 

[Platy]

I'm not against transgenders or anything but biologically transgender persons has both advantages/disadvantages when it comes to atlethism and it's not fair.

Yeah, the transgender teen would have an advantage over the other contestants. That isn't to say that automatically means they'll always become first, but it's still going to be there. When it comes to physical sports and competitions, transgender M->F shouldn't be in the female bracket.

 

[cyberheater]

Point is, other girls -who we are assuming are cis- beat her.

That's the wrong point.

 

[TaterTots]

Point is, other girls -who we are assuming are cis- beat her.

Well of course there will be other girls faster than her, but we can't dismiss she may have a advantage over some of the other girls.

 

[Hatty]

Yeah, the transgender teen would have an advantage over the other contestants. That isn't to say that automatically means they'll always become first, but it's still going to be there. When it comes to physical sports and competitions, transgender M->F shouldn't be in the female bracket.

Once they have fully transitioned I don't think they would have too much of an advantage. You can't change bone structure though but I'm not sure what advantage that would give in a running competition

 

[partyphone]

testosterone is a huge competitive advantage. HRT erases that.

 

[A Link to the Past]

That's the wrong point.

I think it's a pretty right one.

Turns out that people who lost to her aren't good enough, and people who beat her are better.

 

[mStudios]

This is your thread, HolyBaikal. This thread was made for you.

Who's the dude? Give me some sources man

 

[ElFly]

Well of course there will be other girls faster than her.

Then it is not unfair.

Like...by definition.

 

[entremet]

testosterone is a huge competitive advantage. HRT erases that.

What about the characteristics that were already affected by test in the first place?

They don't completely go away.

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

In this case, not a big enough difference to even win first.

Are we supposed to make concessions for runners at larger schools placing in the middle where if they ran at a smaller school they would be towards the top?

And yet if she were competing with males, she wouldn't have been competing at states at all.

The top middle school boy this year would've placed 9th in the 2012 Olympics if he competed with women in the 400m dash. Comparing the difference between males vs females with the difference between competing at a big vs small school is laughable

 

[Kinyou]

I think it's a pretty right one.

Turns out that people who lost to her aren't good enough, and people who beat her are better.

That's like saying it doesn't matter that athlete X was doping because she finished third place.

What we don't know right now is if the teen is undergoing hormone therapy or not. I'd say it depends on that how vaild or invalid the complaints are.

 

[Skii]

Then shouldn't you be able to handpick any black athlete at random in the continent of Africa and have them smoke the fastest white athlete?

You can't look at a distinct, geographically isolated population of people and project that across an entire race. Black Caribbean islanders are as different from Black Kenyans as Black Ghanians are from Western Europeans. Race is social. We find it more convenient to group people by outward physical characteristics because it's easy, but genetics don't work that way.

But where do black people in the rest of the western world come from? They either come from the Caribbeans (which broke off from Africa in prehistoric times) or from Africa itself.

Their environment and chance has given them a physical genetic advantage which helps them in running sports. It is beyond clear if you just look at short distance track events or long distance track events. It is dominated by black people. Why are you getting upset by this? It is biological fact. It's the same biological fact that white people find it much easier to digest lactose than those of other races because of the environment they have lived in.

I study biology at university and I've studied evolutionary traits and advantages for almost 3 years now, I'm just telling you stuff that was actually part of my course.

The difference between male vs female runners is so much more pronounced than any sort of advantage being black may give you, it's seriously not even worth bringing up

Yes it is but there is still a distinct advantage in running sports for black people than other races and it's no surprise that they dominate in certain track events because of it. There is nothing wrong with that. It's just genetics.

 

[User 73706]

or

hold on to your butts

we just have people run time trials and compete in classes based off the average of their best 3 times

merit-based determinism is only a legitimate option if i don't have to give up any of my rights though

 

[Platy]

What about the characteristics that were already affected by test in the first place?

They don't completely go away.

Everything except bones and facial hair go away.

And even bones I mean just shape and size ... density is confirmed to decrease.

If you have a problem with any of those it is better to stop cis women with large shoulders or after a certain height too ....

 

[Rabbi_Vole]

Run faster.

It doesn't matter if a horse entered the race your time is what it is. Similar arguements have always been made about rural vs. city schools or public vs. private. There's always going to be unfairness and the ultimate lesson of high school athletics is growing and developing as a person, not winning or losing.

Exactly. They should also do away with sports scholarships. Problem solved.

 

[Neffarias_Bredd]

But where do black people in the rest of the western world come from? They either come from the Caribbeans (which broke off from Africa in prehistoric times) or from Africa itself.

Their environment and chance has given them a physical genetic advantage which helps them in running sports. It is beyond clear if you just look at short distance track events or long distance track events. It is dominated by black people. Why are you getting upset by this? It is biological fact. It's the same biological fact that white people find it much easier to digest lactose than those of other races because of the environment they have lived in.

I study biology at university and I've studied evolutionary traits and advantages for almost 3 years now, I'm just telling you stuff that was actually part of my course.



Yes it is but there is still a distinct advantage in running sports for black people than other races and it's no surprise that they dominate in certain track events because of it. There is nothing wrong with that. It's just genetics.

Ok? I'm not arguing that point, just that the argument is unecessary and useless

 

[User 73706]

I'm not against transgenders or anything

oh okay cool

but

oh