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[Suikoguy]

Most of the "Bernie stans" I know care a lot more about policy than the man

I think the definition has shifted a bit.
It's basically now refers people who continue to bring up the primary, over a year later.

Then you have progressives who have moved on, and are focused on policy.

Then you have progressives who have moved on, but support the idea of marginalizing social issues. Sometimes these people get referred to as "Bernie stans" since Sanders himself has supported the idea.

 

[Frozenprince]

You must. It be riding in he same boat I am. I voted for Hillary knowing it had to be done. But I'm also not willfully ignorant of her flaws. And if you ( in the same paragraph) complain about feeling like you're camped with the GOP for not supporting Sanders and then complain about raised taxes, you walked into that one.

The reality is, he's the most popular politician in America right now. So is most of his policies. The signs are there. I'm really not sure what you're arguing.

Read it again.

I'm not complaining about tax increases. I'm saying the common American voter will.

Comparing me to that is insulting to me. And ignorant of her flaws, I haven't mentioned Hillary once in this thread and am on record about flaws. You're constructing shit that doesn't exist.

 

[wesleyshark]

We are in a transition period right now and we hold no power. We have a chance to influence where the party wants to go and I think a manifesto that focuses on Civil Rights & Labor, that moves away from corporate ties and interests and makes legitimate attempts to clean up conflicts of interest that is killing Washington is a better plan than just telling people to shut up and vote for whatever D even if they suck or don't offer anything. It doesn't work and will continue to not work.

Well said... Though it's a massively uphill battle.

 

[Autodidact]

Sanders has real issues that shouldn't be ignored but it is inaccurate to say that his base was entirely white men

if you want to be accurate, you should say that he failed to reach black and older Latino voters, unless you want to pretend all of his successes with Muslim, Native American, and Asian American voters just don't exist.

1. I never said entirely. I said "bulk."

2. The Bernie voters who bemoan "identity politics" and want us to downplay them are white, heterosexual men.

3. Those voters certainly exist but pragmatically voted for Hillary as we vulnerable minorities are wont to do. Many of the aforementioned group continued bitching.

 

[Meowster]

lmao at this being the ad I get for this thread though

 

[Whompa02]

Mostly it's just folks rolling their eyes at people acting like he's this magical hero who stands for all that is good and right in the world, and how people who like him demonize The Evil Corporate Democrats even though Sanders usually votes alongside them.

I mean let's call a spade a spade here: Hillary is a total shade ball and was manufactured into the ambiguous garbage image that she ended on. She was beyond fake.

I realize Bernie had no chance, but let's not pretend like the alternative was much better...how she lost to Trump though is even crazier and confusing though. I certainly underestimated America after that result.

 

[TurnipFritters]

Perhaps because every time someone mentions it would be a good idea to run on a strong pro labor, socialist platform in areas we haven't tried because you know.. No one else is suggesting any other decent ideas it just turns into "Well Bernout lost so stfu", even if you aren't advocating clones of his to run across the country and saw many flaws in his approach

If people want to keep knocking the idea of large economic reforms being a direction to go people should probably suggest other ideas instead of just whining.

We are in a transition period right now and we hold no power. We have a chance to influence where the party wants to go and I think a manifesto that focuses on Civil Rights & Labor, that moves away from corporate ties and interests and makes legitimate attempts to clean up conflicts of interest that is killing Washington is a better plan than just telling people to shut up and vote for whatever D even if they suck or don't offer anything. It doesn't work and will continue to not work.

Like, real life, actual Socialist parties, ones that actually run on a Socialist platform and not Soft Capitalism, have been running in elections for quite some time and haven't gotten much traction.

I mean let's call a spade a spade here: Hillary is a total shade ball and was manufactured into the ambiguous garbage image that she ended on. She was beyond fake.

I realize Bernie had no chance, but let's not pretend like the alternative was much better...how she lost to Trump though is even crazier...

I think it was pretty embarrassing that she made the same mistakes in the general election that Sanders made in the primary.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

To bring in young people Democrats should target Net Neutrality, Student loan debt, making college more affordable and climate change. Those issues along with a more charismatic candidate and democrats should do fine. Also democrats should specifically tailor certain issues to the area they are campaigning in. More awareness for registering and getting people to vote. Half of the voting public did not vote in the last presidential election getting more people engaged in politics and voting is a sure fire way to help democrats. Its a better idea then to try to court people who voted for Donald Trump. Also work on trying to make it easier for people to vote. Standing in long lines and making people miss a day of work is ridiculous the process should be a lot easier. Democrats do have a problem that Republicans do not the Republican party is pretty homogeneous. So its easier for republicans to tailor their message because they only have to speak to that one group of people.

Bringing in young people doesn't matter if they don't vote...

I mean let's call a spade a spade here: Hillary is a total shade ball and was manufactured into the ambiguous garbage image that she ended on. She was beyond fake.

I realize Bernie had no chance, but let's not pretend like the alternative was much better...how she lost to Trump though is even crazier...

Yup. "What are you gonna do? Vote for Trump mwahahaha" backfired. Time to field better candidates.

 

[aeolist]

The House passed a bill that would have disenfranchised 24 million Americans from Health Insurance. The House Democrats all opposed that bill.

The Alt-Republicans in government are currently one of the few things trying to protect us from getting fucked in the ass.

the democrats put a bill in place in 2009 that left 28 million uninsured and millions more with insurance that's too expensive to actually use. the ACA is a fundamentally conservative law, and the fact that republicans are insanely reactionary doesn't change that.

 

[BrutishMrFish]

The reality is, he's the most popular politician in America right now. So is most of his policies. The signs are there.

What signs? You can't be talking about votes, and opinions don't matter if they don't translate to votes.

If his policies are that popular, he and all (or even some) of the other economic populists like him would have performed better than Hillary and the more centrist candidates, and yet not a single one of them did.

 

[legacyzero]

Read it again.

I'm not complaining about tax increases. I'm saying the common American voter will.

Comparing me to that is insulting to me. And ignorant of her flaws, I haven't mentioned Hillary once in this thread and am on record about flaws. You're constructing shit that doesn't exist.

Apologies, I must have read it wrong.

But my point remains. Just look at Single Payer popularity on both sides of voters.

 

[Frozenprince]

Bringing in young people doesn't matter if they don't vote...

Young people will never vote.

 

[Eidan]

Perhaps because every time someone mentions it would be a good idea to run on a strong pro labor, socialist platform in areas we haven't tried because you know.. No one else is suggesting any other decent ideas it just turns into "Well Bernout lost so stfu", even if you aren't advocating clones of his to run across the country and saw many flaws in his approach

If people want to keep knocking the idea of large economic reforms being a direction to go people should probably suggest other ideas instead of just whining.

We are in a transition period right now and we hold no power. We have a chance to influence where the party wants to go and I think a manifesto that focuses on Civil Rights & Labor, that moves away from corporate ties and interests and makes legitimate attempts to clean up conflicts of interest that is killing Washington is a better plan than just telling people to shut up and vote for whatever D even if they suck or don't offer anything. It doesn't work and will continue to not work.

Karen Handel, on a debate stage, said that she does not support a livable wage. She didn't try to obfuscate what a livable wage was, and she didn't try to avoid an answer. She just said "No". And she won without it eeen being a squeaker.

A lot of people don't advocate for a socialist message because they know it simply doesn't resonate in conservative communities across the US.

 

[chaosblade]

Well, the quote in the thread title certainly isn't wrong. It's kind of astounding how many people genuinely don't see Democrats as a viable option to vote for. Even to the extent that their reason for voting is to keep them out of office, even if they don't like or agree with the Republican candidate at all.

It never ceases to amaze me how often people complain about Republican politicians doing exactly what they say they are going to do but continue to vote for them every election.

 

[aeolist]

1. I never said entirely. I said "bulk."

i really love that the popularity poll i posted gets so consistently ignored

 

[Autodidact]

the democrats put a bill in place in 2009 that left 28 million uninsured and millions more with insurance that's too expensive to actually use. the ACA is a fundamentally conservative law, and the fact that republicans are insanely reactionary doesn't change that.

The Affordable Care Act was based on Romneycare, which, despite the name, was passed by a Democratic legislature in Massachusetts. That place is such a hotbed of conservatism.

 

[jakonovski]

Mostly it's just folks rolling their eyes at people acting like he's this magical hero who stands for all that is good and right in the world, and how people who like him demonize The Evil Corporate Democrats even though Sanders usually votes alongside them.

And Hillary supporters did the same, except they focused on stuff like a rather nebulous idea that she would bring justice to minorities.

 

[Suikoguy]

the democrats put a bill in place in 2009 that left 28 million uninsured and millions more with insurance that's too expensive to actually use. the ACA is a fundamentally conservative law, and the fact that republicans are insanely reactionary doesn't change that.

Relative numbers, how do they work?

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Young people will never vote.

Exactly why carving a political platform to cater to them means fuckall. If they ain't gonna get in the kitchen they sint gonna get a piece of the pie.

Having the better platform doesn't amount to anything without the ability to legislate.

 

[aeolist]

Karen Handel, on a debate stage, said that she does not support a livable wage. She didn't try to obfuscate what a livable wage was, and she didn't try to avoid an answer. She just said "No". And she won without it eeen being a squeaker.

A lot of people don't advocate for a socialist message because they know it simply doesn't resonate in conservative communities across the US.

it doesn't resonate with republican voters who won't vote for democrats no matter what. it might resonate with the massive pool of (mostly poor) people who don't bother to vote.

yet the party is more concerned with chasing the former than the latter, mostly because it's run by lobbyists and highly-paid consultants.

 

[Frozenprince]

Apologies, I must have read it wrong.

But my point remains. Just look at Single Payer popularity on both sides of voters.

Yes, it's popular in polls, but then when booths open, these things never go that way. Polls suggested overwhelming support for legalized Marijuana in Massachusetts, and yet it barely barely barely sqeaks by. Single payer in Colorado, a state the Dems won, was so soundly defeated it's honestly shocking it got on the ballot at all.

You have to look at the reality that a "shift in public perception and opinion" doesn't connotate to wins.

 

[shamanick]

72% turned up in the UK but we'll just treat it as a lost cause over here.

Let's keep trying to flip Republicans.

Jezza ran actual left policies, something the Dems would never do

 

[Suikoguy]

Yes, it's popular in polls, but then when booths open, these things never go that way. Polls suggested overwhelming support for legalized Marijuana in Massachusetts, and yet it barely barely barely sqeaks by. Single payer in Colorado, a state the Dems won, was so soundly defeated it's honestly shocking it got on the ballot at all.

You have to look at the reality that a "shift in public perception and opinion" doesn't connotate to wins.

It's in part due to the polling being in a vacuum. When in reality enacting such policies have other requirements such as increased taxes.
Polling really should try to include possible effects when asking such questions.

"Would you support an increase in taxes to provide Medicare for all US Citizens?"

 

[Afrodium]

Donald Trump is massively unpopular and lies like a rug. The perception of authenticity doesn't correlate with political success.

Authentic doesn't mean honest. I believe that Donald Trump is very similar when on camera or Twitter as he is behind closed doors. Yeah, he's spewing lies constantly, but people feel that his public persona is his true self.

 

[Frozenprince]

72% turned up in the UK but we'll just treat it as a lost cause over here.

Let's keep trying to flip Republicans.

The UK snap election had high youth turnout, yet the brexit vote had staggeringly low turnout which is why it playes out as it did.

Relying on the youth vote to carry you is not a sustainable model, because it's proven to be volatile at best.

 

[aeolist]

The Affordable Care Act was based on Romneycare, which, despite the name, was passed by a Democratic legislature in Massachusetts. That place is such a hotbed of conservatism.

and it was written by the american enterprise institute, which certainly is

 

[TurnipFritters]

72% turned up in the UK but we'll just treat it as a lost cause over here.

Let's keep trying to flip Republicans.

You, uh, you understand that the Labour party didn't actually win that election right? They won seats but they didn't get a majority and are not in a position to actually inact policy.

 

[Kthulhu]

Exactly why carving a political platform to cater to them means fuckall. If they ain't gonna get in the kitchen they sint gonna get a piece of the pie.

Having the better platform doesn't amount to anything without the ability to legislate.

People ain't gonna vote if you don't try and rope them in.

Edit: and shitty memes aren't a way to do that.

 

[shamanick]

You, uh, you understand that the Labour party didn't actually win that election right? They won seats but they didn't get a majority and are not in a position to actually inact policy.

They won the biggest increase of any political party in the U.K. since 1945, down a 20 point deficit, with the media and half of their own party running against them

 

[aeolist]

You, uh, you understand that the Labour party didn't actually win that election right? They won seats but they didn't get a majority and are not in a position to actually inact policy.

if we could get youth turnout to 72% in the US republicans would never win another national election again, but nobody wants to run on policies that young people care about

 

[TurnipFritters]

They won the biggest increase of any political party in the U.K. since 1945, down a 20 point deficit, with the media and half of their own party running against them

And they're still not in a position to actually push policy.

if we could get youth turnout to 72% in the US republicans would never win another national election again, but nobody wants to run on policies that young people care about

A lot of young people are conservative, actually.

 

[Frozenprince]

And the UK political system is far different than our house and senate. Parliament has far more local seats, many of which are decided by vote counts in single digits. It's easier to get people out when you have a system like that

Local elections in the US are not comparable. They are different animals based on different political spheres.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

I think Trump backlash will get more young people out to vote like brexit backlash did in the UK. Recent events haven't been conventional so applying conventional wisdom is a mistake. If there was ever a time to target them it would be now.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

People ain't gonna vote if you don't try and rope them in.

Even with policies that help young people they don't vote. I'm not saying don't help out if spite. I'm just saying they gotta life their weight in the situation. All those policies they want? Can't get there if they stay home on xbox and snapchat

 

[BinaryPork2737]

Finally someone gets it. Print that as a slogan and we are sure to win elections. Christ. Why is the left the only group with these fucking purity tests? Look it's quite simple: one side actively hates everything you stand for. Vote against that for the one party who is at least leaning in your direction. Is it ideal? No. At least protection and incrementalism is far better than going decades back.

That's not true at all. See the current alt-right movement and the Tea Party.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

72% turned up in the UK but we'll just treat it as a lost cause over here.

Let's keep trying to flip Republicans.

This time for sure!

 

[Makonero]

if we could get youth turnout to 72% in the US republicans would never win another national election again, but nobody wants to run on policies that young people care about

i still don't understand why legalization of weed isn't a surefire policy win for democrats

 

[shamanick]

And they're still not in a position to actually push policy.

Except they are doing exactly that

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/21/grenfell-tower-families-to-be-given-68-flats-in-luxury-apartment-complex

 

[Frozenprince]

i still don't understand why legalization of weed isn't a surefire policy win for democrats

Because young. People. Don't. Vote.

Legal weed, the single most "youth policy" oriented thing possible is barely winning, in some states it's actually projected to lose.

You act like neither party has been trying to court the youth vote when they've been doing that forever and still haven't gotten turnout.

 

[The Greek Freak]

I'm done, as long as the national DNC is just the GOP with less bible and a thin sheet over the racism they aren't getting another dime or another 5 minutes of phone banking, or even another vote from me, my black ass is staying home next election and then bailing on this police state in a few years.

 

[Suikoguy]

Because young. People. Don't. Vote.

Legal weed, the single most "youth policy" oriented thing possible is barely winning, in some states it's actually projected to lose.

Sorry Democrats, Marijuana Doesn't Bring Young Voters to the Polls

But, let's change the platform to appeal to them at the expense of other groups...

I'm done, as long as the national DNC is just the GOP with less bible and a thin sheet over the racism they aren't getting another dime or another 5 minutes of phone banking, or even another vote from me, my black ass is staying home next election and then bailing on this police state in a few years.

Oh good, a random both sides post. So productive!

 

[excelsiorlef]

I'm done, as long as the national DNC is just the GOP with less bible and a thin sheet over the racism they aren't getting another dime or another 5 minutes of phone banking, or even another vote from me, my black ass is staying home and then bailing on this police state in a few years.

Cool.

The DNC isn't anything like the GOP but yeah

 

[TurnipFritters]

Except they are doing exactly that

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/21/grenfell-tower-families-to-be-given-68-flats-in-luxury-apartment-complex

That's a very nice gesture but I'm reasonably sure that's not an actual policy they ran on. Call me when they start nationalizing industries or raise the minimum wage to, what was it, 10 pounds? Which is like, 12 bucks in americanland, and that sounds a bit neoliberal shilly to me, but what do I know.

 

[aeolist]

Because young. People. Don't. Vote.

young people don't vote!

i mean yeah, nobody really runs on things that they like but that's because they don't vote! if they voted for people pushing agendas they don't care about magic would happen and they'd get things they want!

the party certainly wouldn't just take them for granted the way they do with ethnic and gender minorities, no sir

 

[Kthulhu]

Even with policies that help young people they don't vote. I'm not saying don't help out if spite. I'm just saying they gotta life their weight in the situation. All those policies they want? Can't get there if they stay home on xbox and snapchat

No one markets to them. No one tries to inform them.

Young people don't watch the nightly new or late night talk shows. They're on the internet. Dabbing with Ellen and talking about Pokemon Go doesn't do shit.

Edit: I'm not saying younger people are what you should count on, but bringing in as many people as possible is generally a good idea. I'm not even asking for the Dems to change their policies. A message change is what they need more than anything.

 

[Eidan]

it doesn't resonate with republican voters who won't vote for democrats no matter what. it might resonate with the massive pool of (mostly poor) people who don't bother to vote.

yet the party is more concerned with chasing the former than the latter, mostly because it's run by lobbyists and highly-paid consultants.

Yes, politicians chase the votes of those who vote. Saying that their platform should shift to gain the votes of those who likely won't (the young), is partly why Democrats struggle in non-midterm years in the first place.

 

[Autodidact]

and it was written by the american enterprise institute, which certainly is

Surely you realize that America 2008-2010 is not America 2016-2020. The country and the Democratic Party HAVE moved to the left in that time, including on health care. The reason we can even discuss single payer with any degree of seriousness is because the ACA began the arduous decoupling of health insurance from employment. Now that it's been seven years and the world hasn't collapsed, people have started clamoring for the public option and Medicare buy-ins and maybe, ultimately, single payer. You strike me as the type to be opposed to incrementalism, but we needed the first step in the form of ACA to begin the transition.

 

[TurnipFritters]

young people don't vote!

i mean yeah, nobody really runs on things that they like but that's because they don't vote! if they voted for people pushing agendas they don't care about magic would happen and they'd get things they want!

the party certainly wouldn't just take them for granted the way they do with ethnic and gender minorities, no sir

There was a dude that supposedly ran on everything young people wanted and they still didn't show up to vote.

 

[Frozenprince]

Yes, politicians chase the votes of those who vote. Saying that their platform should shift to gain the votes of those who likely won't (the young), is partly why Democrats struggle in non-midterm years in the first place.

Dems tried to use Obama's upsurge in youth voting to carry them last year.

Nobody markets to them? What? There are political ada everywhere on the internet. Reddit is inundated with it. Policy has been pushed on both sides to try and get even 5% more youth turnout and it never works out.

Because young folks in America just don't vote consistently.

 

[Suikoguy]

young people don't vote!

i mean yeah, nobody really runs on things that they like but that's because they don't vote! if they voted for people pushing agendas they don't care about magic would happen and they'd get things they want!

uhh:

Sorry Democrats, Marijuana Doesn’t Bring Young Voters to the Polls

But, let's change the platform to appeal to them at the expense of other groups...

the party certainly wouldn't just take them for granted the way they do with ethnic and gender minorities, no sir

It only seems to be Far Left progressives pushing for that.